If you think DPS meters are bad then you're bad. I'm sorry that I have to break it to you. They help you understand and improve on your class and they also help pointing out those who need help playing their class. Many people also enjoy competing with one another to help pass the time or give another purpose to your gameplay.
As I didn't read your pointless post I don't know if you're aware but they intend to implement a damage meter into the game, have a fantastic day!
Hey, I know you! You're the hybrid class with a DPS spec who won't heal yourself, or toss out a heal, CC, or cleanse if you see the main healer is having a bit of trouble for a moment. After all, damage is so much more important than any sort of teamwork, right?
Or perhaps you're the guy who stands in the fire, then yells at the healer when you die because you didn't want to lose your 'top spot' in the meters.
Then again you could be the person who constantly pulls threat off the tank early on in the fight, before aggro can be established. Or even afterwards for that matter, buy using all your heavy hitting abilities because 'OH NOES I DROPPED TO THE #2 SLOT!!'
Well, rest assured that no matter which one of these people you are, you're the type of gamer who can always be found on my ignore list.
It's a sad day indeed when a family is too afraid of reprisals to publicly thank somebody for saving their lives.
I love mods but never liked DPS meters :P. But, this is mainly because of stupid design decisions imo. Like multiple bag windows(especially at lower levels when you have really small bags) it's just a pain the ass to deal with compared to one large one.
Originally posted by Betaguy I hope there is some sort of mods, I hate guildies riding coat tails of others who play hard while they do nothing to contribute but more strain and collect phat lootz. Mods help cut the fat.
I'm typically ambivalent about mods in MMO's. They highlight slackers but also give a spotlight to some players whose attitudes don't really need another one.
I can see where a threat meter might be helpful, but not a DPS meter.
Some of the comments from Yoshi P. seem to be centered around the concept of threat more so than damage.
This is a bit more fair to me as in FF the holy trinity is typically in play with off healers buffing and debuffing and some DPS classes moving threat onto the tank to help hold aggro. I don't know if threat will be able to be moved like it was in FFXI, but Mobs being very sensitive to changes in threat has been a consistent in the FF series with more of it generated by taunts,healing/buffing/debuffing than pure dps.
One of the things I noticed from Japanese players in FFXI was that the team concept was important and NA players were viewed as rude due to self serving play habits.
This would lead me to think that a DPS meter would be less than useful for conventional use other than to give some people that ridiculous spotlight they don't need.
Tanks don't need it, their performance is more easily judged by the number of people who died before him.
Healers don't need it as determined by the number of people who died at all.
Unless a DPS is topping a DPS meter while staying steady/low on a Threat meter they are more of a liability than an asset IMO.
I want the dps meters. I want to be able to prove I have the best dps or highest healing.
Honestly, Whats the point of playing a game without this since of competition? I need to feel the progress im makeing. I'm sure I speak for alot of people when I say, I don't play mmo's just to gain exp. I want to be the best! I want to be the best bard I can, and I want to be able to craft the highest level gear I can. I need these mods you speak so poorly about.
If not for the competition, I need the dps meters so I can see how much of an impact I was during that last dungeon. I NEED to see and feel my progress. Without the mods. I personally wouldn't feel the hours, days and nights I put into the game.
Thanks for great replies guys, this is easing my concern a little bit. I relate to a lot of Yaevin has said. My first MMO was FFXI and I was drawn to it because I am huge FF fan in general. I went from that WoW because I enjoyed the warcraft series and I had friends tell me how awesome it was. I picked it up in December 2004 and played there up until WotLK which was pretty much when the game stopped being fun for me and became nothing but a numbers game.
Learning your rotation to keep the highest dps. "LFM VoA, must bring 3.5k dps or a certains gearscore." And while I did that and researched rotations and number crunched I realized I wasn't having fun anymore. I felt like the game shifted from a group focus to a single player focus. It became more of a "What can this group do for me" rather than "How can I help the group out," In addition it felt like it became a game of efficiency rather than one of fun. "Do this as quickly as possible so we can finish this heroic in twenty minutes and get into another one. I need 300 more points for a new item." Eventually I realized that is not how I wanted to enjoy the game. For me it was a very false sense of accomplishment.
While I have fond memories of vanilla WoW and TBC, my favorite times have been in FFXI, running away from Goblin trains, running to Jeuno while your home point was in Windurst and fearing for your life every time you saw a mob, and even simply thinks like making juice for my summoner friend in between pulls in Yhoator. I have a lot of high hopes that FFXIV will provide the same experience in a way and the beta really has me excited for the launch.
Perhaps I place more blame on certain mods than I should which is something this thread has made me realize. I guess the real concern is a shift in community where it becomes a "What can this group do for me" rather than "How can I help the group out" as I mentioned previously.
Why oh why does every single mmo launch we have this same discussion... Mods are great addition to games, so are dps meters, what makes them bad is the people behind them. I love addons to customize my game, i love to know if i'm doing my job (reffering to dps meters not just for dps but for stuff like healing done/dmg recieved etc) if my rotations are good etc...
Some people in my opinion need to just understand just as there are casual players that don't even pay attention to their skills tooltips there are others that do, and like the number crunching and theorycrafting of a game. Remember it is an mmorpg, its multiplayer, your poor performance can and will affect other people, witch is what i hate and the reason i use this tools to make my self better.
My point is we live with other people in the world, and we are playing an mmorpg, yes wow made a whole generation of snobs entitled people, the solution is imo, find a middle ground, if you hate the addons, dmg metters etc, find a linkshell with same likes, join it and play with people that like that same playstyle.
I hope you understand that i do not mean you are "wrong" for not wanting these tools, nor i,m against the way you want to play the game you pay for, just understand now everyone is equal or view competition equally etc...
Just really tired of reading this in all mmo's that came out after WoW.
dps meters have been around since launch of wow so saying dps meters is what killed wow is wrong.
wow still has 8 millino people and what has decreased wows numbers imo is Looking for raid and same lock outs for 10/25 man with same loot. Wow is trying to tend to all the lame casual players who cry all day. Wow is just gonna coast as long as they can till they release there next big mmo. Meters have very little to do with wow's population
I want the dps meters. I want to be able to prove I have the best dps or highest healing.
Honestly, Whats the point of playing a game without this since of competition? I need to feel the progress im makeing. I'm sure I speak for alot of people when I say, I don't play mmo's just to gain exp. I want to be the best! I want to be the best bard I can, and I want to be able to craft the highest level gear I can. I need these mods you speak so poorly about.
If not for the competition, I need the dps meters so I can see how much of an impact I was during that last dungeon. I NEED to see and feel my progress. Without the mods. I personally wouldn't feel the hours, days and nights I put into the game.
I don't tend to play DPS so I don't worry about competition. I tend to tank or heal/buff/debuff as DPS is boring.
My experience in MMO's has been that DPS is easily found and typically more easily replaced. Historically, I would let them snag the aggro and die while not rezzing or tell the healer not to after a couple of quiet warnings not to be overzealous. I have never found one other member in any group I was in with an issue with that stance.
dps meters have been around since launch of wow so saying dps meters is what killed wow is wrong.
wow still has 8 millino people and what has decreased wows numbers imo is Looking for raid and same lock outs for 10/25 man with same loot. Wow is trying to tend to all the lame casual players who cry all day. Wow is just gonna coast as long as they can till they release there next big mmo. Meters have very little to do with wow's population
They were not common or well known until sometime during Wrath. Back then utility was still king, especially with Buffadins who just auto attacked and individually buffed each person with their blessings, judged enemies to give raid wide benefits on those who attack those enemies, and throw up the occassional heal. This was common place for most classes, and try as Blizzard might to keep on implimenting more of these (such as the rogue's old utilities), it was always met with "this hurts our over all damage according to our meters) and they were left out of raid slots for a long while.
I know people who got their Tier 3 sets, who say they never used any type of damage meter in Vanilla and question it's existence then. That just shows you the change that occurred once such things became mainstream.
Edit: As was said after this post, they even kicked people who said they had it since they caused more wipes than they were worth as they only focused on their own damage and not the common good.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
I want the dps meters. I want to be able to prove I have the best dps or highest healing.
Honestly, Whats the point of playing a game without this since of competition? I need to feel the progress im makeing. I'm sure I speak for alot of people when I say, I don't play mmo's just to gain exp. I want to be the best! I want to be the best bard I can, and I want to be able to craft the highest level gear I can. I need these mods you speak so poorly about.
If not for the competition, I need the dps meters so I can see how much of an impact I was during that last dungeon. I NEED to see and feel my progress. Without the mods. I personally wouldn't feel the hours, days and nights I put into the game.
I am not sure if this is directed at me, but I have no fear of competition. If you play an MMO to compete that is fine, but not every one plays a game for the same reason you do. I feel no desire to compete with others in an MMO. My goal when I log in is to play with some friends, make some new friends, group up and go have a good time. I am that guy that will pass on a drop when it is an upgrade for me because it is a slightly better upgrade for someone else. My character having the absolute best gear, spec, or whatever is not my primary concern.
Don't get me wrong, I will learn how to play my class so I can perform well enough that we succeed. I tank or heal most of the time and very rarely do people complain when I play either role. In fact some people have said I am the best healer they have had. But that is not why I play an MMO.
I mentioned earlier that I like to run, I run as a way to compete against myself and better myself. The first time I got my 5k time under 25 minutes was the best feeling in the world for me, then when it dropped below 20 it was an even better feeling. Some people run for other reasons. I don't try to force my mentality of running upon them or tell them they are bad at running because they don't enjoy it the way I enjoy it.
If you get that same enjoyment from edging up your DPS up that is fine, more power to you and it makes me want you to have a way to do that then. I have said that perhaps I made an incorrect judgement against the mods themselves when the negativity falls to the player themselves. (I think people are reading my first post and just hitting reply)
My primary fear is that the community will shift into something selfish.
dps meters have been around since launch of wow so saying dps meters is what killed wow is wrong.
wow still has 8 millino people and what has decreased wows numbers imo is Looking for raid and same lock outs for 10/25 man with same loot. Wow is trying to tend to all the lame casual players who cry all day. Wow is just gonna coast as long as they can till they release there next big mmo. Meters have very little to do with wow's population
They were not common or well known until sometime during Wrath. Back then utility was still king, especially with Buffadins who just auto attacked and individually buffed each person with their blessings, judged enemies to give raid wide benefits on those who attack those enemies, and throw up the occassional heal. This was common place for most classes, and try as Blizzard might to keep on implimenting more of these (such as the rogue's old utilities), it was always met with "this hurts our over all damage according to our meters) and they were left out of raid slots for a long while.
I know people who got their Tier 3 sets, who say they never used any type of damage meter in Vanilla and question it's existence then. That just shows you the change that occurred once such things became mainstream.
I too know a few people who were in T3 and didnt use DPS Meters. Most of the people who were the competition types on the DPS meters during Vanilla were well known on a server and never found a decent guild because often they caused more wipes than their DPS was worth. Just like FFXIV will be. DPS can be high however if you pull aggro you will die, if you dont know when to use your Limit break you will wipe the raid, and if you worry about the DPS meter that much to be top dog you will run out of mana or TP then be useless the rest of the fight. Thats the way the game is designed.
Thanks for great replies guys, this is easing my concern a little bit. I relate to a lot of Yaevin has said. My first MMO was FFXI and I was drawn to it because I am huge FF fan in general. I went from that WoW because I enjoyed the warcraft series and I had friends tell me how awesome it was. I picked it up in December 2004 and played there up until WotLK which was pretty much when the game stopped being fun for me and became nothing but a numbers game.
Learning your rotation to keep the highest dps. "LFM VoA, must bring 3.5k dps or a certains gearscore." And while I did that and researched rotations and number crunched I realized I wasn't having fun anymore. I felt like the game shifted from a group focus to a single player focus. It became more of a "What can this group do for me" rather than "How can I help the group out," In addition it felt like it became a game of efficiency rather than one of fun. "Do this as quickly as possible so we can finish this heroic in twenty minutes and get into another one. I need 300 more points for a new item." Eventually I realized that is not how I wanted to enjoy the game. For me it was a very false sense of accomplishment.
While I have fond memories of vanilla WoW and TBC, my favorite times have been in FFXI, running away from Goblin trains, running to Jeuno while your home point was in Windurst and fearing for your life every time you saw a mob, and even simply thinks like making juice for my summoner friend in between pulls in Yhoator. I have a lot of high hopes that FFXIV will provide the same experience in a way and the beta really has me excited for the launch.
Perhaps I place more blame on certain mods than I should which is something this thread has made me realize. I guess the real concern is a shift in community where it becomes a "What can this group do for me" rather than "How can I help the group out" as I mentioned previously.
I agree with the whole numbers and efficiency game. Though I was a healer / tank throughout my WoW experience. Was only a rogue for PvP on a PvP server. What started to get annoying was when people tried to pull threat through numbers, when it was about watching your agro previously and working together as a team. Blizzard in recent years have even increased tank threat by 1000% just because they can't beat the "Maximize DPS" mentality that formed over time.
Don't forget about the /help command when you aggro'd an additional mob, and how cool it was to see another part come to your aid and work with you to beat it. Maybe even that paladin that came out of no where to revive you, or get of their chocobo and heal your group for no other reason but for the sense of community and team work.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
People who don't want meter's usually are people who are not hard core raiders and prefer easy and casual content with the same rewards as hardcore players. I have played many mmo's including ff11, wow, rift, aion, dcuo, gw2 and ff14 beta. I have also been a gm in ff11 for 3 years and a gm in wow. Yes there will be the annoying people who brag about dps but overall meters is the best way to judge a persons skill in healing and dps., which is an essential tool for end game raids. This is important because in my opinion most mmos don't want to take the initiative to adjust class changes to evenly fix dps so that everyone is equal. Having meters is 100% proof that some classes could be more overpowered then others, and then they can make adjustments because there's no denying it.
what about those who want all the numbers to be hidden?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If you think DPS meters are bad then you're bad. I'm sorry that I have to break it to you. They help you understand and improve on your class and they also help pointing out those who need help playing their class. Many people also enjoy competing with one another to help pass the time or give another purpose to your gameplay.
As I didn't read your pointless post I don't know if you're aware but they intend to implement a damage meter into the game, have a fantastic day!
Really gotta agree with this. Why hate a tool that motivates you to get better and measures your ability?
If you think DPS meters are bad then you're bad. I'm sorry that I have to break it to you. They help you understand and improve on your class and they also help pointing out those who need help playing their class. Many people also enjoy competing with one another to help pass the time or give another purpose to your gameplay.
As I didn't read your pointless post I don't know if you're aware but they intend to implement a damage meter into the game, have a fantastic day!
Really gotta agree with this. Why hate a tool that motivates you to get better and measures your ability?
Well, I actually answer this on posts 18, 23, 38 and 41 in case you want to partake in discussion with me.
You're more than welcome to bring your thoughts to discussion, especially if you take the time and read all of those. It would be fun to hear the thoughts of others directly.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
If you think DPS meters are bad then you're bad. I'm sorry that I have to break it to you. They help you understand and improve on your class and they also help pointing out those who need help playing their class. Many people also enjoy competing with one another to help pass the time or give another purpose to your gameplay.
As I didn't read your pointless post I don't know if you're aware but they intend to implement a damage meter into the game, have a fantastic day!
Really gotta agree with this. Why hate a tool that motivates you to get better and measures your ability?
i agree 100% meters help individuals better themselves for there raid.
and if your people are so concerned about people watching meters while raiding then make it a guild requirement to not look until after the fight ( i know some people wont listen)
Also World of logs is the best sort to judge someone imo.
Not only does it show everything on a dps meter it shows when people are doing good and messing up during a fight.
And it shows buffs cast/debuffs and alot more
I mean lets be honest if your stuck wiping on a end game boss its best to figure out why and is there anything holding you back rather then just cry for a nerf
If you think DPS meters are bad then you're bad. I'm sorry that I have to break it to you. They help you understand and improve on your class and they also help pointing out those who need help playing their class. Many people also enjoy competing with one another to help pass the time or give another purpose to your gameplay.
As I didn't read your pointless post I don't know if you're aware but they intend to implement a damage meter into the game, have a fantastic day!
Really gotta agree with this. Why hate a tool that motivates you to get better and measures your ability?
Well, I actually answer this on posts 18, 23, 38 and 41 in case you want to partake in discussion with me.
You're more than welcome to bring your thoughts to discussion, especially if you take the time and read all of those. It would be fun to hear the thoughts of others directly.
Coming from a guy who said DPS meters didn't catch on until Wrath? No thanks, man. Really not worth debating. Meters were popular back in EQ's day. Used DPS meters years before Wrath in WoW. Perhaps that's not until you learned of them, which kinda doesn't surprise me if you hate a tool that measures efficiency.
Coming from a guy who said DPS meters didn't catch on until Wrath? No thanks, man. Really not worth debating. Meters were popular back in EQ's day. Used DPS meters years before Wrath in WoW. Perhaps that's not until you learned of them, which kinda doesn't surprise me if you hate a tool that measures efficiency.
yea i remember making sure i had 850 dps before i raided in karazhan lol
If you think DPS meters are bad then you're bad. I'm sorry that I have to break it to you. They help you understand and improve on your class and they also help pointing out those who need help playing their class. Many people also enjoy competing with one another to help pass the time or give another purpose to your gameplay.
As I didn't read your pointless post I don't know if you're aware but they intend to implement a damage meter into the game, have a fantastic day!
Really gotta agree with this. Why hate a tool that motivates you to get better and measures your ability?
Well, I actually answer this on posts 18, 23, 38 and 41 in case you want to partake in discussion with me.
You're more than welcome to bring your thoughts to discussion, especially if you take the time and read all of those. It would be fun to hear the thoughts of others directly.
Coming from a guy who said DPS meters didn't catch on until Wrath? No thanks, man. Really not worth debating. Meters were popular back in EQ's day. Used DPS meters years before Wrath in WoW. Perhaps that's not until you learned of them, which kinda doesn't surprise me if you hate a tool that measures efficiency.
Golelorn
I can understand why people dont want DPS meters and I think you are not understand why they dont. I used them a lot in BC however not to base if a person was top in DPS it was more based on if they are using certain spells or what not at important times. With that said we also had a rule no posting DPS meters in guild chat or general chat or you get Gkicked. We used WOWLogs to post our meters because it took more into account than just DPS. For example One person always loved to post his DPS Meter in Vanilla WoW. Great he was top DPS however he died more at least 3 times more than anyone else. Why? Because he would run up to the next mob and start attacking it way before the old mob was dead and he would bitch when the tank didnt pull the mob off him. I had another guy that was a great DPS in Kara, he was a hunter and was told too trap or kite a ad on morose. Guess what he died often because he was more worried about MAX dps than trapping bitched when us healers stopped healing him.
DPS meters are only as good as the people using them to determine what is going on. In the hands of a jack wagon its the most pointless tool you could have.
Well, I would like to thank those who contributed to the discussion with constructive feedback. It was nice talking with you guys, but it seems like we are getting people in here now who aren't even reading the thread any more and I don't feel like repeating myself. So I will say goodbye to the internet for the night now.
If anyone who has been following the thread knows of a linkshell that would suit my playstyle let me know! Have a good evening. Perhaps I will see you in game during the beta this weekend.
A full suite of add-ons will be possible and supported by the game. What the extent of that is unknown, wil it be just UI elements? Will it be meters and databases and such? Not sure yet.
I was never a fan of "required" add-ons, as I do not like tampering with the experience the developers intended. I usually stick to gathering, lore and Database mods.
I can understand the "need" for such things as DPS meters and boss mods in high end, elite raiding guilds whose main purpose in such games as this is to be number one. To be the best.
I approve of the option, I just hope that it won't warp things too much.
If you think DPS meters are bad then you're bad. I'm sorry that I have to break it to you. They help you understand and improve on your class and they also help pointing out those who need help playing their class. Many people also enjoy competing with one another to help pass the time or give another purpose to your gameplay.
As I didn't read your pointless post I don't know if you're aware but they intend to implement a damage meter into the game, have a fantastic day!
Really gotta agree with this. Why hate a tool that motivates you to get better and measures your ability?
Well, I actually answer this on posts 18, 23, 38 and 41 in case you want to partake in discussion with me.
You're more than welcome to bring your thoughts to discussion, especially if you take the time and read all of those. It would be fun to hear the thoughts of others directly.
Coming from a guy who said DPS meters didn't catch on until Wrath? No thanks, man. Really not worth debating. Meters were popular back in EQ's day. Used DPS meters years before Wrath in WoW. Perhaps that's not until you learned of them, which kinda doesn't surprise me if you hate a tool that measures efficiency.
It's as Dan said. Ultimately I offered a chance to enter a well mannered discussion about something and suggested that you read all the points made previously before educating me with your opinions and facts (while I do a lot of research on certain topics, I have an open mind and am willing to change my view point if convinced to do so). If you want to ignore that and disregard any points made, then that's your prerogative and you are most certainly entitled to your own opinion as well as refusing to accept anything spoken.
In all of my posts I was specifically referring to World of warcraft; my assertment that the meters weren't common knowledge or commonly used during Vanilla was in itself correct. I was not talking about games in general, but the matter of fact and how the game was back then (more details in my previous posts regarding this, as this is a topic I touched up on already). It was from these experiences and the time I and many others spent within it (more posts from others back this up in this thread, as they confirm this was the case). There were times when people who used these Meters were kicked out of guilds, or disallowed from ever using them while in guild made groups. This is mainly because these people tended only to care about efficiency of their own characters, and not the benefits of the groups as a whole.
I would go into further detail, but in each those points is an answer to anything you brought up so far. If you can bring about evidence to the contrary, then I would analyze it and respond to it if none of my previous post have not already touched up on the topic.
Efficiency is good, but one has to understand what efficiency is and how it relates to different games, as opposed to thinking all systems of all games are the same and that the "epeen" of most WoW DPS nowadays is in any way efficient when utility skills are present or a game focuses on group play as opposed to "the lone star of the group".
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Hopefully this lightens the mood up for this thread.
The funny thing about that is that he was in the original, but not the remake. So they're both right in their own ways, but refuse to acknowledge it or understand which version the other is talking about.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Even with utility skills having a measured value of DPS can only be a positive thing. Now....if you get into the exclusionary part of it (You suck, DPS is weak, /kick) then you're just talking about an individual who will do that regardless of whether there's something first or third party available to measure DPS.
TL;DR version of thread:
OP doesn't want people to know how badly he's sucking.
Comments
Hey, I know you! You're the hybrid class with a DPS spec who won't heal yourself, or toss out a heal, CC, or cleanse if you see the main healer is having a bit of trouble for a moment. After all, damage is so much more important than any sort of teamwork, right?
Or perhaps you're the guy who stands in the fire, then yells at the healer when you die because you didn't want to lose your 'top spot' in the meters.
Then again you could be the person who constantly pulls threat off the tank early on in the fight, before aggro can be established. Or even afterwards for that matter, buy using all your heavy hitting abilities because 'OH NOES I DROPPED TO THE #2 SLOT!!'
Well, rest assured that no matter which one of these people you are, you're the type of gamer who can always be found on my ignore list.
It's a sad day indeed when a family is too afraid of reprisals to publicly thank somebody for saving their lives.
I'm typically ambivalent about mods in MMO's. They highlight slackers but also give a spotlight to some players whose attitudes don't really need another one.
I can see where a threat meter might be helpful, but not a DPS meter.
Some of the comments from Yoshi P. seem to be centered around the concept of threat more so than damage.
This is a bit more fair to me as in FF the holy trinity is typically in play with off healers buffing and debuffing and some DPS classes moving threat onto the tank to help hold aggro. I don't know if threat will be able to be moved like it was in FFXI, but Mobs being very sensitive to changes in threat has been a consistent in the FF series with more of it generated by taunts,healing/buffing/debuffing than pure dps.
One of the things I noticed from Japanese players in FFXI was that the team concept was important and NA players were viewed as rude due to self serving play habits.
This would lead me to think that a DPS meter would be less than useful for conventional use other than to give some people that ridiculous spotlight they don't need.
Tanks don't need it, their performance is more easily judged by the number of people who died before him.
Healers don't need it as determined by the number of people who died at all.
Unless a DPS is topping a DPS meter while staying steady/low on a Threat meter they are more of a liability than an asset IMO.
WoW!. Another person afraid of competition.
I want the dps meters. I want to be able to prove I have the best dps or highest healing.
Honestly, Whats the point of playing a game without this since of competition? I need to feel the progress im makeing. I'm sure I speak for alot of people when I say, I don't play mmo's just to gain exp. I want to be the best! I want to be the best bard I can, and I want to be able to craft the highest level gear I can. I need these mods you speak so poorly about.
If not for the competition, I need the dps meters so I can see how much of an impact I was during that last dungeon. I NEED to see and feel my progress. Without the mods. I personally wouldn't feel the hours, days and nights I put into the game.
Thanks for great replies guys, this is easing my concern a little bit. I relate to a lot of Yaevin has said. My first MMO was FFXI and I was drawn to it because I am huge FF fan in general. I went from that WoW because I enjoyed the warcraft series and I had friends tell me how awesome it was. I picked it up in December 2004 and played there up until WotLK which was pretty much when the game stopped being fun for me and became nothing but a numbers game.
Learning your rotation to keep the highest dps. "LFM VoA, must bring 3.5k dps or a certains gearscore." And while I did that and researched rotations and number crunched I realized I wasn't having fun anymore. I felt like the game shifted from a group focus to a single player focus. It became more of a "What can this group do for me" rather than "How can I help the group out," In addition it felt like it became a game of efficiency rather than one of fun. "Do this as quickly as possible so we can finish this heroic in twenty minutes and get into another one. I need 300 more points for a new item." Eventually I realized that is not how I wanted to enjoy the game. For me it was a very false sense of accomplishment.
While I have fond memories of vanilla WoW and TBC, my favorite times have been in FFXI, running away from Goblin trains, running to Jeuno while your home point was in Windurst and fearing for your life every time you saw a mob, and even simply thinks like making juice for my summoner friend in between pulls in Yhoator. I have a lot of high hopes that FFXIV will provide the same experience in a way and the beta really has me excited for the launch.
Perhaps I place more blame on certain mods than I should which is something this thread has made me realize. I guess the real concern is a shift in community where it becomes a "What can this group do for me" rather than "How can I help the group out" as I mentioned previously.
Why oh why does every single mmo launch we have this same discussion... Mods are great addition to games, so are dps meters, what makes them bad is the people behind them. I love addons to customize my game, i love to know if i'm doing my job (reffering to dps meters not just for dps but for stuff like healing done/dmg recieved etc) if my rotations are good etc...
Some people in my opinion need to just understand just as there are casual players that don't even pay attention to their skills tooltips there are others that do, and like the number crunching and theorycrafting of a game. Remember it is an mmorpg, its multiplayer, your poor performance can and will affect other people, witch is what i hate and the reason i use this tools to make my self better.
My point is we live with other people in the world, and we are playing an mmorpg, yes wow made a whole generation of snobs entitled people, the solution is imo, find a middle ground, if you hate the addons, dmg metters etc, find a linkshell with same likes, join it and play with people that like that same playstyle.
I hope you understand that i do not mean you are "wrong" for not wanting these tools, nor i,m against the way you want to play the game you pay for, just understand now everyone is equal or view competition equally etc...
Just really tired of reading this in all mmo's that came out after WoW.
dps meters have been around since launch of wow so saying dps meters is what killed wow is wrong.
wow still has 8 millino people and what has decreased wows numbers imo is Looking for raid and same lock outs for 10/25 man with same loot. Wow is trying to tend to all the lame casual players who cry all day. Wow is just gonna coast as long as they can till they release there next big mmo. Meters have very little to do with wow's population
I don't tend to play DPS so I don't worry about competition. I tend to tank or heal/buff/debuff as DPS is boring.
My experience in MMO's has been that DPS is easily found and typically more easily replaced. Historically, I would let them snag the aggro and die while not rezzing or tell the healer not to after a couple of quiet warnings not to be overzealous. I have never found one other member in any group I was in with an issue with that stance.
I don't expect I ever will.
They were not common or well known until sometime during Wrath. Back then utility was still king, especially with Buffadins who just auto attacked and individually buffed each person with their blessings, judged enemies to give raid wide benefits on those who attack those enemies, and throw up the occassional heal. This was common place for most classes, and try as Blizzard might to keep on implimenting more of these (such as the rogue's old utilities), it was always met with "this hurts our over all damage according to our meters) and they were left out of raid slots for a long while.
I know people who got their Tier 3 sets, who say they never used any type of damage meter in Vanilla and question it's existence then. That just shows you the change that occurred once such things became mainstream.
Edit: As was said after this post, they even kicked people who said they had it since they caused more wipes than they were worth as they only focused on their own damage and not the common good.
I am not sure if this is directed at me, but I have no fear of competition. If you play an MMO to compete that is fine, but not every one plays a game for the same reason you do. I feel no desire to compete with others in an MMO. My goal when I log in is to play with some friends, make some new friends, group up and go have a good time. I am that guy that will pass on a drop when it is an upgrade for me because it is a slightly better upgrade for someone else. My character having the absolute best gear, spec, or whatever is not my primary concern.
Don't get me wrong, I will learn how to play my class so I can perform well enough that we succeed. I tank or heal most of the time and very rarely do people complain when I play either role. In fact some people have said I am the best healer they have had. But that is not why I play an MMO.
I mentioned earlier that I like to run, I run as a way to compete against myself and better myself. The first time I got my 5k time under 25 minutes was the best feeling in the world for me, then when it dropped below 20 it was an even better feeling. Some people run for other reasons. I don't try to force my mentality of running upon them or tell them they are bad at running because they don't enjoy it the way I enjoy it.
If you get that same enjoyment from edging up your DPS up that is fine, more power to you and it makes me want you to have a way to do that then. I have said that perhaps I made an incorrect judgement against the mods themselves when the negativity falls to the player themselves. (I think people are reading my first post and just hitting reply)
My primary fear is that the community will shift into something selfish.
I too know a few people who were in T3 and didnt use DPS Meters. Most of the people who were the competition types on the DPS meters during Vanilla were well known on a server and never found a decent guild because often they caused more wipes than their DPS was worth. Just like FFXIV will be. DPS can be high however if you pull aggro you will die, if you dont know when to use your Limit break you will wipe the raid, and if you worry about the DPS meter that much to be top dog you will run out of mana or TP then be useless the rest of the fight. Thats the way the game is designed.
I agree with the whole numbers and efficiency game. Though I was a healer / tank throughout my WoW experience. Was only a rogue for PvP on a PvP server. What started to get annoying was when people tried to pull threat through numbers, when it was about watching your agro previously and working together as a team. Blizzard in recent years have even increased tank threat by 1000% just because they can't beat the "Maximize DPS" mentality that formed over time.
Don't forget about the /help command when you aggro'd an additional mob, and how cool it was to see another part come to your aid and work with you to beat it. Maybe even that paladin that came out of no where to revive you, or get of their chocobo and heal your group for no other reason but for the sense of community and team work.
what about those who want all the numbers to be hidden?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Really gotta agree with this. Why hate a tool that motivates you to get better and measures your ability?
Well, I actually answer this on posts 18, 23, 38 and 41 in case you want to partake in discussion with me.
You're more than welcome to bring your thoughts to discussion, especially if you take the time and read all of those. It would be fun to hear the thoughts of others directly.
i agree 100% meters help individuals better themselves for there raid.
and if your people are so concerned about people watching meters while raiding then make it a guild requirement to not look until after the fight ( i know some people wont listen)
Also World of logs is the best sort to judge someone imo.
Not only does it show everything on a dps meter it shows when people are doing good and messing up during a fight.
And it shows buffs cast/debuffs and alot more
I mean lets be honest if your stuck wiping on a end game boss its best to figure out why and is there anything holding you back rather then just cry for a nerf
Coming from a guy who said DPS meters didn't catch on until Wrath? No thanks, man. Really not worth debating. Meters were popular back in EQ's day. Used DPS meters years before Wrath in WoW. Perhaps that's not until you learned of them, which kinda doesn't surprise me if you hate a tool that measures efficiency.
yea i remember making sure i had 850 dps before i raided in karazhan lol
Golelorn
I can understand why people dont want DPS meters and I think you are not understand why they dont. I used them a lot in BC however not to base if a person was top in DPS it was more based on if they are using certain spells or what not at important times. With that said we also had a rule no posting DPS meters in guild chat or general chat or you get Gkicked. We used WOWLogs to post our meters because it took more into account than just DPS. For example One person always loved to post his DPS Meter in Vanilla WoW. Great he was top DPS however he died more at least 3 times more than anyone else. Why? Because he would run up to the next mob and start attacking it way before the old mob was dead and he would bitch when the tank didnt pull the mob off him. I had another guy that was a great DPS in Kara, he was a hunter and was told too trap or kite a ad on morose. Guess what he died often because he was more worried about MAX dps than trapping bitched when us healers stopped healing him.
DPS meters are only as good as the people using them to determine what is going on. In the hands of a jack wagon its the most pointless tool you could have.
Well, I would like to thank those who contributed to the discussion with constructive feedback. It was nice talking with you guys, but it seems like we are getting people in here now who aren't even reading the thread any more and I don't feel like repeating myself. So I will say goodbye to the internet for the night now.
If anyone who has been following the thread knows of a linkshell that would suit my playstyle let me know! Have a good evening. Perhaps I will see you in game during the beta this weekend.
A full suite of add-ons will be possible and supported by the game. What the extent of that is unknown, wil it be just UI elements? Will it be meters and databases and such? Not sure yet.
I was never a fan of "required" add-ons, as I do not like tampering with the experience the developers intended. I usually stick to gathering, lore and Database mods.
I can understand the "need" for such things as DPS meters and boss mods in high end, elite raiding guilds whose main purpose in such games as this is to be number one. To be the best.
I approve of the option, I just hope that it won't warp things too much.
It's as Dan said. Ultimately I offered a chance to enter a well mannered discussion about something and suggested that you read all the points made previously before educating me with your opinions and facts (while I do a lot of research on certain topics, I have an open mind and am willing to change my view point if convinced to do so). If you want to ignore that and disregard any points made, then that's your prerogative and you are most certainly entitled to your own opinion as well as refusing to accept anything spoken.
In all of my posts I was specifically referring to World of warcraft; my assertment that the meters weren't common knowledge or commonly used during Vanilla was in itself correct. I was not talking about games in general, but the matter of fact and how the game was back then (more details in my previous posts regarding this, as this is a topic I touched up on already). It was from these experiences and the time I and many others spent within it (more posts from others back this up in this thread, as they confirm this was the case). There were times when people who used these Meters were kicked out of guilds, or disallowed from ever using them while in guild made groups. This is mainly because these people tended only to care about efficiency of their own characters, and not the benefits of the groups as a whole.
I would go into further detail, but in each those points is an answer to anything you brought up so far. If you can bring about evidence to the contrary, then I would analyze it and respond to it if none of my previous post have not already touched up on the topic.
Efficiency is good, but one has to understand what efficiency is and how it relates to different games, as opposed to thinking all systems of all games are the same and that the "epeen" of most WoW DPS nowadays is in any way efficient when utility skills are present or a game focuses on group play as opposed to "the lone star of the group".
Hehe... I'm reminded of a video whenever I read people who just make a post and forget about it, or don't bother with discussion. xD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqs9DYisSsg
Hopefully this lightens the mood up for this thread.
The funny thing about that is that he was in the original, but not the remake. So they're both right in their own ways, but refuse to acknowledge it or understand which version the other is talking about.
Even with utility skills having a measured value of DPS can only be a positive thing. Now....if you get into the exclusionary part of it (You suck, DPS is weak, /kick) then you're just talking about an individual who will do that regardless of whether there's something first or third party available to measure DPS.
TL;DR version of thread:
OP doesn't want people to know how badly he's sucking.