Originally posted by itsTort The thing is, the majority of the people that complain about use of said tool, are the ones that under perform by 90%, which are the cause of the problems. This is why they do not want these tools, as they can be awful, and no one will really know the difference.
LOL! What a load. Ive never once had a problem with DPS yet I absolutely hate the drama that tool brings to PuGs especially. Every now and then you get some douche who starts harassing someone else not for 90% not for 10%, nor for 5%! Worst part? The run was going fine, no deaths, no wipes, until he opened his mouth. Many times by some dbag tank who everyone sides with because its another 20 minutes of queue time if he leaves. Bringing negativity to the entire group, wasting time that could be better spent by STFU and playing through.
So cut the crap. Maybe you only start your whining at -90% but most dont. Most not only do it at a much lower number but they do it in comparison to their own, to what they subjectively think someone elses DPS should be. Unless you'd like to link a developers reveal on what an expected minimum expected DPS is (which they designed the fight to be) on a boss on a class by class break down, there is no objective minimum DPS. The only time that tool is even REALLY necessary (and I say that lightly) is in Raids and personal use. Something that SE can easily limit in game to prevent the harassment that comes with it, at least with PuGs where its most common.
Originally posted by itsTort As a very avid raider of WoW, TERA, AoC, Warhammer, etc, and knowing about AF armors/raids/etc in FF11, I really hope that there will be some type of DPS meter. I mean, I know that there will be a DPS parser, but I would be hoping for an in game add-on, to prevent alt-tabbing. I know many people just flat out don't care about how well they do, but I personally like to watch as I improve. I'm not sure why you would wish away a 100% optional feature, that affects you in no way what so ever, except, to show you if you are doing something wrong or not.
Its funny how with all your super awesome extensive experiences with MMO's and raiding youre still so eager for a tool that only actually shows a fraction of what makes a good player. Not surprising though, as its common knowledge that this over dependence on DPS meters has people thinking that the only thing that matters now is what that "tool" says.
Honestly, I would take time to give you a well thought out reply, but you're just spewing idiocy. You need to think before you type, read what you are replying to, and try to present your message in a less idiotic way.
Havent looked at this game or anything, but my thought on DPS meters is this: they are in some cases very useful, in case of boss enrage timers, etc. You don't want to bring with a group of 5 people, 1-2 dps classes that do less dps than a tank(in most mmo's i mean, just an example!), because it is going to take FOREVER, or enrage timers are going to go off...
I guess a long story short for me. I don't want to feel like im in math class or college courses where there are certain requirements to be meet or you DON'T get to got AT ALL.
To me thats not what gaming and gaming with others is about. I would rather spend some hours TEACHING new players about their class, and in turn making a online friend, that down the road we will have some fun gaming experiences.
Then whip out a calculator and show them some numbers and tell them if they cant get 1,000 dps they cant come or join the party. it takes away from the immersion, and the GAMING experience imo.
Personally I like mods like that. I like to know I did the best and performed well. If I'm doing dps, I want to be on top, otherwise why else play such an easy role? I really don't get all 'angry' about people doing meh, just as long as they aren't pulling numbers that defy logic and reason. Go ahead, call me elitist for it, but I feel its dumb to have people just floating around not even trying and making those who are playing suffer for it. I don't care if you aren't the best, so long as you try and you put effort in to do your best I'm quite content with it.
It works mostly to show how good I am doing, thats what I care most about. Sure it feels good to be at top and its something to strive for, but if you are doing such a simple role like DPS, why shouldn't that be a priority? You have nothing to be ashamed of if you aren't the best, so long as you put some effort in I personally have nothing against you. Again, my issue is with people who somehow do LESS then what the tank (give the tank in the game isn't meant to do crazy damage) or healer (support as well in some games) pull with no good excuse towards it, something that could likely be done by pressing buttons rather then... I don't know what they do instead and probably don't want to know...
In short: DPS meter please, and ifs really that much of an issue, hide away who is doing what and just show what YOU as a player is doing if you are that worried. If I do the easy task of DPS, I want to compare my work cause I like to IMPROVE, to be BETTER. Something anyone should want when they play a game.
People are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them. I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec. But I also don't think that people that don't play that way should be ostracized for their play style. Generally, as long as you're doing something in a group, I don't care, I know that that isn't the case with everyone, but if stuff is dying slower than normal, people are going to be able to tell and will call you out anyway.
Mods like the quest helper, anything with raid timers, etc though are terrible, because it turns into needing them in order to make any sort of progress in raids. Nothing third party should ever be necessary to complete a raid/dungeon.
Its this type of attitude that is responsible for many of us hating dps meters and the dog eat dog attitude that they foster. Contrary to what some people appear to think, to many of us, this isn't some e peen competition, or a second job. Its a source of entertainment, relaxation. If I wanted to be on edge all the damn time, I'd go play some FFA full loot gank fest.
So, play that way. Nobody is stopping you from playing the way you want. You're trying to stop us from playing the way we want. I'm not sure how "You play your way, I'll play mine" is a "type of attitude" that makes you hate DPS meters.
Normally, I'd totally agree with you. That tends to be a reasonable approach to some issues. But from painful experience, this isn't one of those situations. If DPS meters exist, they (from my past experience) WILL not only be abused, but will eventually become mandatory. Its an aspect of human nature. In an ideal system, you could play your way, and I (and others) could play our way. But this is much less than an ideal system. I don't like the position I'm taking, but any positives to be had from this course of action, do not (to my mind) balance the negatives.
Originally posted by Keyh https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal You're assertion that "most don't" is udder bullshit, or you just play with terrible people (not terrible players, terrible people). In my reasonably long time in playing MMOs, mainly EQ2 since launch, I have been in 3 groups where a person has been kicked based off of his performance on a parser. 1 of them was after wiping 3 times to the first boss of a dungeon, 1 of them was because he was only autoattacking, and 1 of them I kicked because he was ninja afking and fought in less than half of the fights and we were having a rough time because of it.I'm not sure what game you're describing here (WoW I'm sure) but that is a community issue, not an issue with DPS meters. These people would be assholes in some other way if they didn't have DPS meters.
I love how you open up with logical fallacies then bring in one of your own. Just because people "will be assholes" doesnt mean we give them a tool for them to be better at it. You want to talk about "udder bullshit" how about insinuating that those "assholes" will stop being assholes elsewhere because they have DPS meters. No ... youll have all those other assholes AND the DPS meter assholes making things worse on top of everything else they already do. And yes, most dont! Most of the time something meter related shows up its some whiny douche wanting to piss on someones day, most of the time its during meaningless trash pulls, most of the time the run is going fine and everyone is enjoying themselves until he opened his mouth.
I could count on 1 hand how many times a DPS meter actually been useful to me, my guild, and/or any PuGs ive been in for a difficult boss fight. Actually, no hands needed ... its 0. Thats right, not once. This notion that its needed to defeat anything is also "udder bullshit." The difference between a win and a loss is hardly ever a DPS race and mostly done through quick and efficient execution of the strategies involved. Even if the enrage timer is hit (a very cheap cop-out excuse for game difficulty BTW) players buckle down, try something new as a group, and collectively push harder for more DPS. Never once in my entire time of playing MMO's since CoH has a DPS meter meant the difference. Not even SWTOR where the developers had the worst case of enrage-timer dependency Ive seen in the last 10 years. I cant even remember the last time anyone ever even hit an enrage timer in a PuG. Ive already said im all for keeping them in guild raids and for personal use (target dummies)... for PuGs they cause way more trouble than theyre worth.
That's probably because it's a tool that shows the fraction of what makes a good player that is difficult to determine otherwise.People who top the DPS meter at the expense of dying or pulling aggro are just as bad as those that do less damage than the healer.There are bad players that are against DPS meters and there are bad players that are for DPS meters. They're bad in different ways (sometimes), but they're bad none-the-less.There are also people that use DPS meters that are decent people and ones that are assholes. I realize that your experiences in whatever terrible community you were in lean you towards being against DPS meters. However, I ensure you that DPS meters alone do not ruin communities. The People do.
Ok great ... there are bad people everywhere whose entire motive in life is to ruin peoples day. There are others who use it as the end all be all guru of skill ... so what? Like I said before, you dont give them another tool to make it easier on them and exacerbate the problem. Specially one that is hardly necessary (if at all) to face the challenges in the game. Thats like saying there should be FFA looting because ninja's will be ninjas. No, you limit who can do what and when so that both sides can get some of what they wanted. I believe its called a compromise.
People are going to be elitist assholes no matter what. I, personally enjoy "DPS meters" and think they should have them. I like inching out that 5% more DPS from a spec. But I also don't think that people that don't play that way should be ostracized for their play style. Generally, as long as you're doing something in a group, I don't care, I know that that isn't the case with everyone, but if stuff is dying slower than normal, people are going to be able to tell and will call you out anyway.
Mods like the quest helper, anything with raid timers, etc though are terrible, because it turns into needing them in order to make any sort of progress in raids. Nothing third party should ever be necessary to complete a raid/dungeon.
Its this type of attitude that is responsible for many of us hating dps meters and the dog eat dog attitude that they foster. Contrary to what some people appear to think, to many of us, this isn't some e peen competition, or a second job. Its a source of entertainment, relaxation. If I wanted to be on edge all the damn time, I'd go play some FFA full loot gank fest.
So, play that way. Nobody is stopping you from playing the way you want. You're trying to stop us from playing the way we want. I'm not sure how "You play your way, I'll play mine" is a "type of attitude" that makes you hate DPS meters.
Normally, I'd totally agree with you. That tends to be a reasonable approach to some issues. But from painful experience, this isn't one of those situations. If DPS meters exist, they (from my past experience) WILL not only be abused, but will eventually become mandatory.
If by "past experience" you mean wow then yea. My experience is that its not a problem in most mmo's.
I can see how it could have sounded judgmental however i only wanted to point out that you can do everything without the DPS meter so the real only use is to feel good if you have the top spot which you most of the time can only get if you play for it and not for the team.
I also didnt say to ban it completly like i tried to say with the Ranking system used on Dummies.
I would agree with your sentiment that you want to be left alone to play as you want and the other should play as they want IF that would be possible.
As soon as you have such a tool its hard to not be forced to submit to it wanna join a random group first thing you are asked is your DPS/HPS.
Its not possible to not be part of it unless you find a Guild and only play with them.
I also explained how we managed to max out our classes just by playing with others and why would you not use the combat log if you really only want to know if you became better? If its really only for you the few minutes it would take can not be too much can it?
I totally agree with you that not everyone who wants a DPS meter is an asshole and that not everyone who doesnt want one is a bad player, however if you would not have a dps meter you would not have any assholes because of it but you still would be able to filter out the bad players and help them improve.
So in my opinion if adding a system will add some assholes to the community while not adding it has no drawbacks well than dont add it. Thats all there is to it if adding the system would add something to the game that could not be archieved otherwise and therefore even out the negative things it adds it would be different but thats not the case for DPS meters.
Maybe improve it have it tell you how often you pulled hate how much healing had to be wasted cause of your top spot in dps how many support abilities did you use over the fight record all that and give a score for that and than Join pts based on Group Value rather than pure dps. Sure it will have drawbacks like a pure DPS meter but it would be a start at least.
The only problem I could see with the training dummies thing is that it lacks context. Getting a rotation down on a stationary thing that doesn't fight back and has no threat list is different from being able to do it with a boss with mechanics.
Most of your points are fair but I disagree with them. I feel the need to argue with "So in my opinion if adding a system will add some assholes to the community while not adding it has no drawbacks well than dont add it." is an unfair statement. Parsers/Meters help foster theorycrafting communities. I realize that people against DPS Meters don't care, but the theorycrafting meta-game is a lot of fun to some people, and being able to provide objective information on specs, rotations, classes, abilities, equipment, etc, is important.
I would _love_ for there to be a system that accurately reflects every aspect of a player's skill and posts scores at the end of the dungeon for that. I would play every support class possible and make people invincible/one shot bosses, it would be great. If you can find a way to do that, do a Kickstarter and I'll pledge lol.
Originally posted by Wraithone
Normally, I'd totally agree with you. That tends to be a reasonable approach to some issues. But from painful experience, this isn't one of those situations. If DPS meters exist, they (from my past experience) WILL not only be abused, but will eventually become mandatory. Its an aspect of human nature. In an ideal system, you could play your way, and I (and others) could play our way. But this is much less than an ideal system. I don't like the position I'm taking, but any positives to be had from this course of action, do not (to my mind) balance the negatives.
Maybe I just don't understand this. There is clearly, in this topic at least, more people that are against DPS meters than there are people for them. If this is at least at least a reasonably accurate sample size, you have people that you can friend, guild, w/e with. Do you guys not join guilds? Do you prefer just jumping into PUGs? I can see not wasting time with a raiding guild, but playing with the same people all of the time is much more entertaining than queuing up and playing with strangers that you don't talk to.
Originally posted by svann Maybe allow logging of personal information but not raidwide info. That way dps meters would show you your dps but not everyone elses. Dps meters can be useful to find out what works best, and also sometimes to determine when something isnt working as it should in the game. In vanguard we had a panther illusion mask that was supposed to give 5% melee haste and it was bugged for 2 years without anyone realizing it till I checked it using a dps meter and found it was working in reverse. It got fixed within 1 week.
I didn't now you were the same Svann from vanguard, I remember you. I want to say you were a rogue, but maybe a melee ranger (my condolences if it was the latter I always thought SOE treated them like red headed stepchildren).
I am in agreement. I've never been a fan of addons like deadly boss mods and such.
I've never had a HUGE problem with dps meters. But I think I would prefer they not make an appearance either. I would rather look at the game. Not the charts that tell me how to play / how much deeps im doing.
It's easy to tell when either the tank or healer is performing poorly, but it hasn't always been so easy for DPS. Damage meters hold DPS classes accountable. It's easy to see who is putting some effort behind playing their class and who is simply auto attacking through every fight for free XP and free loot.
Originally posted by SuperXero89 It's easy to tell when either the tank or healer is performing poorly, but it hasn't always been so easy for DPS. Damage meters hold DPS classes accountable. It's easy to see who is putting some effort behind playing their class and who is simply auto attacking through every fight for free XP and free loot.
i agree with this statement an support mods
ffxi could use mod support so you did not have too type every dam spell /cast fire
In breaking news people like feedback on things they are good at and dislike feedback on things they are bad at.
I like dps/hps meters feedback I've used them to improve my rotation consistency or timings in the past. While people spamming them or THAT guy who keeps asking for the meters even though he very well knows he's on top because he has them installed annoy me the overall good they provide ME is worth it.
I've ran a Guild and been a raid leader and I don't know how Guilds with no information make adjustments to get a task done when their is no information on who isn't performing their task. It all comes down to HOW the feedback is given.
I've always been on the fence about mods or add-ons. Passive ones for UI adjustments, skins, etc are good and definitely gain my vote. DPS meters and things like DBM create epeens. Ironic however, because if I'm DPS'ing i want to make sure I can pull my weight. Maybe create (in-game) damage meters on target dummies only.
So if your runnnig a 24 man raid and the boss keeps enraging because you cant down him fast enough and you dont have meters what do you do just tell everyone they need to up there dps
What if you have dps meters and you see you have 3 monks in your group, 2 of them are doing 1500 dps and 1 is doing 800 dps with equivalent gear for the last 4 attempts.
Do you think its fair to tell your entire guild to increase there dps without a proper indication on what is holding you back.
This is only 1 example of many situations that could arise. Take healing into account to.
Most people( not all) that do not want dps meters are people who have never been a gm of a end game guild.
( im not talking about casual raiding im talking about going for progression and large group raids. 8man raids are a joke and in that case meters wont be as effective as a large scale raid)
Everyone loves competition its in our nature the key is to just be respectful to others.
Yes some people will be all i do this much blah blah blah but those people can be ignored if they really bother you.
Originally posted by Preythan I've always been on the fence about mods or add-ons. Passive ones for UI adjustments, skins, etc are good and definitely gain my vote. DPS meters and things like DBM create epeens. Ironic however, because if I'm DPS'ing i want to make sure I can pull my weight. Maybe create (in-game) damage meters on target dummies only.
I've thought about how to make feedback an individual private thing in the past too but I'm sure any Guild with any (or PUG) type of progression objective would start asking for screen shots etc. The best thing to do is find a Guild and Raid leader who has a mature appraoch to feedback and coaching - thats why I created my own Guild and we are at the Heroic raiding standard.
Years ago I was in a 40m raiding Guild where the Raid leader would drop the last 3 dps every week for trials - it was brutal but it sure made for motivation.
I can see how it could have sounded judgmental however i only wanted to point out that you can do everything without the DPS meter so the real only use is to feel good if you have the top spot which you most of the time can only get if you play for it and not for the team.
I also didnt say to ban it completly like i tried to say with the Ranking system used on Dummies.
I would agree with your sentiment that you want to be left alone to play as you want and the other should play as they want IF that would be possible.
As soon as you have such a tool its hard to not be forced to submit to it wanna join a random group first thing you are asked is your DPS/HPS.
Its not possible to not be part of it unless you find a Guild and only play with them.
I also explained how we managed to max out our classes just by playing with others and why would you not use the combat log if you really only want to know if you became better? If its really only for you the few minutes it would take can not be too much can it?
I totally agree with you that not everyone who wants a DPS meter is an asshole and that not everyone who doesnt want one is a bad player, however if you would not have a dps meter you would not have any assholes because of it but you still would be able to filter out the bad players and help them improve.
So in my opinion if adding a system will add some assholes to the community while not adding it has no drawbacks well than dont add it. Thats all there is to it if adding the system would add something to the game that could not be archieved otherwise and therefore even out the negative things it adds it would be different but thats not the case for DPS meters.
Maybe improve it have it tell you how often you pulled hate how much healing had to be wasted cause of your top spot in dps how many support abilities did you use over the fight record all that and give a score for that and than Join pts based on Group Value rather than pure dps. Sure it will have drawbacks like a pure DPS meter but it would be a start at least.
The only problem I could see with the training dummies thing is that it lacks context. Getting a rotation down on a stationary thing that doesn't fight back and has no threat list is different from being able to do it with a boss with mechanics.
Most of your points are fair but I disagree with them. I feel the need to argue with "So in my opinion if adding a system will add some assholes to the community while not adding it has no drawbacks well than dont add it." is an unfair statement. Parsers/Meters help foster theorycrafting communities. I realize that people against DPS Meters don't care, but the theorycrafting meta-game is a lot of fun to some people, and being able to provide objective information on specs, rotations, classes, abilities, equipment, etc, is important.
I would _love_ for there to be a system that accurately reflects every aspect of a player's skill and posts scores at the end of the dungeon for that. I would play every support class possible and make people invincible/one shot bosses, it would be great. If you can find a way to do that, do a Kickstarter and I'll pledge lol.
Yeah the Dummie system would not be like fighting a Boss but it would be enough to show you the pure amount of DP your build can pull transfering the number from hitting a Dummie to hitting a boss is where your skill comes in play i guess.
I should have made it clearer earlier i suppose but i am all for theory crafting its one of the things i love most about MMOs(at least the deeper ones).But i dont see the need for the DPS meter to do that i can do that without the tools do the math myself its part of the fun for me.
That is why i keep saying you can do all these things a DPS meter lets you do without having it and thats why i think not having it does not limit your gaming experience IF you really want to.
SE didnt allow any add ons for FF11 and i dont think they will change that for FF14 (or hope at least).
Some did use Mods in 11 some will in 14 but if you start being to obvious about it you will get reported pretty fasy i would guess.Which is good since you can use it as long as you use it for yourself but if you try to force the Meter into pt invites you prolly will get punished.
I guess maybe I was playing on a bad server i don't know but I never got a good vibe from the FFXI community. What I did get a lot of was hey can you help me with this? When I tried to get help in return I was met with oh yeah I will help you tomorrow only to never hear from that person again.
I was also in a guild for about a month in FFXI, I would help people with whatever, small stuff here and there. I asked the guild of about 30 people about once a week to do the summon runs so I could get them. I was told almost every time by the guild leader that I had just asked and needed to wait. Maybe he had amnesia or something. Even when guild members would speak up and state I had asked for a month I still couldn't get any of them to help me. I found more helpful communities in free to play games.
So as far as the first post goes about dps meters ruining the game, I seriously don't see how it could hurt it. Atleast if I were able to post a high DPS then maybe I could get into a group for those summon runs. Also getting people to help get limit break items was like pulling teeth as well. Maybe the OP had real life friends that he had to help him run these things or a non douche guild, but I personally don't miss the social challenge of getting help for impossible solo tasks in FFXI.
I like dps meters and such, lets me figure out which spec/rotation is working the best without it being just a feeling or me spending hours combing logs or constructing tools to do it. I really like in game ones since I get immediate feed back and can try new ideas.
As far as mods... I love mods. I've yet to ever play a game that had em that I didn't find good use for them. Map mods, auction house mods, hud mods... love em. No one has done it as well as wow though, a few games have had tolerable mods though.
wow may have went a bit far initially, but now it's fairly reasonable.
i don't see why people are against dps meters. It doesn't have to be an epeen battle, but if i'm not doing enough damage it lets me know i need to work on rotations, get more gear etc....
Comments
Honestly, I would take time to give you a well thought out reply, but you're just spewing idiocy. You need to think before you type, read what you are replying to, and try to present your message in a less idiotic way.
Havent looked at this game or anything, but my thought on DPS meters is this: they are in some cases very useful, in case of boss enrage timers, etc. You don't want to bring with a group of 5 people, 1-2 dps classes that do less dps than a tank(in most mmo's i mean, just an example!), because it is going to take FOREVER, or enrage timers are going to go off...
Wow that was a lot of text in posts
I guess a long story short for me. I don't want to feel like im in math class or college courses where there are certain requirements to be meet or you DON'T get to got AT ALL.
To me thats not what gaming and gaming with others is about. I would rather spend some hours TEACHING new players about their class, and in turn making a online friend, that down the road we will have some fun gaming experiences.
Then whip out a calculator and show them some numbers and tell them if they cant get 1,000 dps they cant come or join the party. it takes away from the immersion, and the GAMING experience imo.
Personally I like mods like that. I like to know I did the best and performed well. If I'm doing dps, I want to be on top, otherwise why else play such an easy role? I really don't get all 'angry' about people doing meh, just as long as they aren't pulling numbers that defy logic and reason. Go ahead, call me elitist for it, but I feel its dumb to have people just floating around not even trying and making those who are playing suffer for it. I don't care if you aren't the best, so long as you try and you put effort in to do your best I'm quite content with it.
It works mostly to show how good I am doing, thats what I care most about. Sure it feels good to be at top and its something to strive for, but if you are doing such a simple role like DPS, why shouldn't that be a priority? You have nothing to be ashamed of if you aren't the best, so long as you put some effort in I personally have nothing against you. Again, my issue is with people who somehow do LESS then what the tank (give the tank in the game isn't meant to do crazy damage) or healer (support as well in some games) pull with no good excuse towards it, something that could likely be done by pressing buttons rather then... I don't know what they do instead and probably don't want to know...
In short: DPS meter please, and ifs really that much of an issue, hide away who is doing what and just show what YOU as a player is doing if you are that worried. If I do the easy task of DPS, I want to compare my work cause I like to IMPROVE, to be BETTER. Something anyone should want when they play a game.
Normally, I'd totally agree with you. That tends to be a reasonable approach to some issues. But from painful experience, this isn't one of those situations. If DPS meters exist, they (from my past experience) WILL not only be abused, but will eventually become mandatory. Its an aspect of human nature. In an ideal system, you could play your way, and I (and others) could play our way. But this is much less than an ideal system. I don't like the position I'm taking, but any positives to be had from this course of action, do not (to my mind) balance the negatives.
I love how you open up with logical fallacies then bring in one of your own. Just because people "will be assholes" doesnt mean we give them a tool for them to be better at it. You want to talk about "udder bullshit" how about insinuating that those "assholes" will stop being assholes elsewhere because they have DPS meters. No ... youll have all those other assholes AND the DPS meter assholes making things worse on top of everything else they already do. And yes, most dont! Most of the time something meter related shows up its some whiny douche wanting to piss on someones day, most of the time its during meaningless trash pulls, most of the time the run is going fine and everyone is enjoying themselves until he opened his mouth.
I could count on 1 hand how many times a DPS meter actually been useful to me, my guild, and/or any PuGs ive been in for a difficult boss fight. Actually, no hands needed ... its 0. Thats right, not once. This notion that its needed to defeat anything is also "udder bullshit." The difference between a win and a loss is hardly ever a DPS race and mostly done through quick and efficient execution of the strategies involved. Even if the enrage timer is hit (a very cheap cop-out excuse for game difficulty BTW) players buckle down, try something new as a group, and collectively push harder for more DPS. Never once in my entire time of playing MMO's since CoH has a DPS meter meant the difference. Not even SWTOR where the developers had the worst case of enrage-timer dependency Ive seen in the last 10 years. I cant even remember the last time anyone ever even hit an enrage timer in a PuG. Ive already said im all for keeping them in guild raids and for personal use (target dummies)... for PuGs they cause way more trouble than theyre worth.
Ok great ... there are bad people everywhere whose entire motive in life is to ruin peoples day. There are others who use it as the end all be all guru of skill ... so what? Like I said before, you dont give them another tool to make it easier on them and exacerbate the problem. Specially one that is hardly necessary (if at all) to face the challenges in the game. Thats like saying there should be FFA looting because ninja's will be ninjas. No, you limit who can do what and when so that both sides can get some of what they wanted. I believe its called a compromise.SO MANY TROLLS IN HERE.
It is simple really. the only thing that DPS meters do is show DPS.
anything bad that comes from it comes from the reactions of assholes.
If by "past experience" you mean wow then yea. My experience is that its not a problem in most mmo's.
The only problem I could see with the training dummies thing is that it lacks context. Getting a rotation down on a stationary thing that doesn't fight back and has no threat list is different from being able to do it with a boss with mechanics.
Most of your points are fair but I disagree with them. I feel the need to argue with "So in my opinion if adding a system will add some assholes to the community while not adding it has no drawbacks well than dont add it." is an unfair statement. Parsers/Meters help foster theorycrafting communities. I realize that people against DPS Meters don't care, but the theorycrafting meta-game is a lot of fun to some people, and being able to provide objective information on specs, rotations, classes, abilities, equipment, etc, is important.
I would _love_ for there to be a system that accurately reflects every aspect of a player's skill and posts scores at the end of the dungeon for that. I would play every support class possible and make people invincible/one shot bosses, it would be great. If you can find a way to do that, do a Kickstarter and I'll pledge lol.
Maybe I just don't understand this. There is clearly, in this topic at least, more people that are against DPS meters than there are people for them. If this is at least at least a reasonably accurate sample size, you have people that you can friend, guild, w/e with. Do you guys not join guilds? Do you prefer just jumping into PUGs? I can see not wasting time with a raiding guild, but playing with the same people all of the time is much more entertaining than queuing up and playing with strangers that you don't talk to.
I was a bard, but thanks for remembering. :-)
I am in agreement. I've never been a fan of addons like deadly boss mods and such.
I've never had a HUGE problem with dps meters. But I think I would prefer they not make an appearance either. I would rather look at the game. Not the charts that tell me how to play / how much deeps im doing.
Too late~
http://ffxiv-app.com/
Parser, event reminder, translator, can watch party members DPS, healing etc etc etc.
The Deep Web is sca-ry.
i agree with this statement an support mods
ffxi could use mod support so you did not have too type every dam spell /cast fire
quick delete your post...LOL >.<
In breaking news people like feedback on things they are good at and dislike feedback on things they are bad at.
I like dps/hps meters feedback I've used them to improve my rotation consistency or timings in the past. While people spamming them or THAT guy who keeps asking for the meters even though he very well knows he's on top because he has them installed annoy me the overall good they provide ME is worth it.
I've ran a Guild and been a raid leader and I don't know how Guilds with no information make adjustments to get a task done when their is no information on who isn't performing their task. It all comes down to HOW the feedback is given.
So if your runnnig a 24 man raid and the boss keeps enraging because you cant down him fast enough and you dont have meters what do you do just tell everyone they need to up there dps
What if you have dps meters and you see you have 3 monks in your group, 2 of them are doing 1500 dps and 1 is doing 800 dps with equivalent gear for the last 4 attempts.
Do you think its fair to tell your entire guild to increase there dps without a proper indication on what is holding you back.
This is only 1 example of many situations that could arise. Take healing into account to.
Most people( not all) that do not want dps meters are people who have never been a gm of a end game guild.
( im not talking about casual raiding im talking about going for progression and large group raids. 8man raids are a joke and in that case meters wont be as effective as a large scale raid)
Everyone loves competition its in our nature the key is to just be respectful to others.
Yes some people will be all i do this much blah blah blah but those people can be ignored if they really bother you.
I've thought about how to make feedback an individual private thing in the past too but I'm sure any Guild with any (or PUG) type of progression objective would start asking for screen shots etc. The best thing to do is find a Guild and Raid leader who has a mature appraoch to feedback and coaching - thats why I created my own Guild and we are at the Heroic raiding standard.
Years ago I was in a 40m raiding Guild where the Raid leader would drop the last 3 dps every week for trials - it was brutal but it sure made for motivation.
Yeah the Dummie system would not be like fighting a Boss but it would be enough to show you the pure amount of DP your build can pull transfering the number from hitting a Dummie to hitting a boss is where your skill comes in play i guess.
I should have made it clearer earlier i suppose but i am all for theory crafting its one of the things i love most about MMOs(at least the deeper ones).But i dont see the need for the DPS meter to do that i can do that without the tools do the math myself its part of the fun for me.
That is why i keep saying you can do all these things a DPS meter lets you do without having it and thats why i think not having it does not limit your gaming experience IF you really want to.
SE didnt allow any add ons for FF11 and i dont think they will change that for FF14 (or hope at least).
Some did use Mods in 11 some will in 14 but if you start being to obvious about it you will get reported pretty fasy i would guess.Which is good since you can use it as long as you use it for yourself but if you try to force the Meter into pt invites you prolly will get punished.
I guess maybe I was playing on a bad server i don't know but I never got a good vibe from the FFXI community. What I did get a lot of was hey can you help me with this? When I tried to get help in return I was met with oh yeah I will help you tomorrow only to never hear from that person again.
I was also in a guild for about a month in FFXI, I would help people with whatever, small stuff here and there. I asked the guild of about 30 people about once a week to do the summon runs so I could get them. I was told almost every time by the guild leader that I had just asked and needed to wait. Maybe he had amnesia or something. Even when guild members would speak up and state I had asked for a month I still couldn't get any of them to help me. I found more helpful communities in free to play games.
So as far as the first post goes about dps meters ruining the game, I seriously don't see how it could hurt it. Atleast if I were able to post a high DPS then maybe I could get into a group for those summon runs. Also getting people to help get limit break items was like pulling teeth as well. Maybe the OP had real life friends that he had to help him run these things or a non douche guild, but I personally don't miss the social challenge of getting help for impossible solo tasks in FFXI.
I like dps meters and such, lets me figure out which spec/rotation is working the best without it being just a feeling or me spending hours combing logs or constructing tools to do it. I really like in game ones since I get immediate feed back and can try new ideas.
As far as mods... I love mods. I've yet to ever play a game that had em that I didn't find good use for them. Map mods, auction house mods, hud mods... love em. No one has done it as well as wow though, a few games have had tolerable mods though.
wow may have went a bit far initially, but now it's fairly reasonable.
Shadus
i don't see why people are against dps meters. It doesn't have to be an epeen battle, but if i'm not doing enough damage it lets me know i need to work on rotations, get more gear etc....