I numbered your points above for referencing to help me counter them.
1) I am a veteran of over two thousand games on every known gaming system. Trust me, Eve Online is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what you said in this point. There are things I have seen and done in Eve that I didn't even know could be done in a videogame until they happened, and they were definitely awe-inspiring to me. You really have no clue what you're talking about.
2) Oh this is rich...
TF2 (Team Fortress 2) is a squad FPS arena shooter a la Counterstrike. What in gods name are you doing comparing that to ANY mmo of any kind? The game mechanics are so different between them that there is zero ground for comparison. If you were to compare TF2 to Dust 514, that would be different.
LoL (League of Legends) is a Warcraft 3 DotA clone. Pretty much the same argument as TF2, what are you doing comparing that to any MMO?
Sim City and Civilization...bird's-eye view single player city builders, one of which has no combat of any kind? Seriously? Why are you comparing those to an MMO? And besides, Eve's Nullsec Sovreignty mechanics give what I would consider an even more in-depth and complicated system than those two. You obviously never went to Nullsec.
WoW (World of Warcraft): As others have mentioned this is the only MMO you listed so the only one that could be adequately compared to Eve. Compared to WoW, Eve has more advanced one on one pvp, more advanced squad on squad PvP, fleet PvP at player numbers that would make WoW servers explode, a resource extraction and crafting system over ten times as deep and does not require craptons of grinding out equipment to gain skill in it, effectively unlimited "class" selection that is achieved simply by switching ships and equipment....so how exactly is WoW better? Even your original argument on travel times is rather invalid, WoW travel times can be pretty long too.
1. EVE doing things you couldn't imagine isn't really related to what I said, is it? The simple fact at hand is that EVE forces more downtime upon players than most other games. This causes it to have less of a focus on gameplay, and more on downtime. Meanwhile, whether EVE does unique things or not, the game doesn't really provide much depth on its own that you couldn't find (or make) in another game.
2. If you're serious that you don't understand how different genres' game designs are relevant, then I suppose that will drag the conversation down a few levels.
First, I recommend reading A Theory of Fun by Koster, as it hits the basics dead-on. It covers how the core of what makes most games fun is pattern mastery, and how this mastery triggers pleasure in our brains and makes up the core of fun games. Different games may achieve this in different ways, but they're achieving the same exact reaction from the brain.
This is why it's completely relevant to compare games across genres, especially in strokes as broad as we're talking about (like whether or not it's a good idea for 30% of the player's time to be wasted with non-gameplay.)
But the original point remains that many games out there are as deep or deeper than EVE, but without the excessive downtimes associated with it. They're basically EVE condensed into smaller, faster decisions (and that added time-pressure actually increases the challenge associated with performing well in the game.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You know, we used to stand around roleplaying for hours?
I wonder how many players could conceive of spending a year playing a game, without stabbing a single crittur--and enjoying the hell out of it. Weeks of preparation and practice for an event where we just made a ten-minute performance, otherwise sat around watching the creativity of other bards--for several nights a year, every year?
:shrug: There's no end to the variety of ways people can enjoy (or not) their gaming. It's a really good thing we have so many games to choose between.
That's not really a game example though. It's a brief performance with a lot of non-interactive entertainment (watching others) and socialization.
Golf was a better example, though at least in Golf you're getting in some walking and taking in some great sights that you rarely (if ever) have seen before. Whereas in a game like EVE you're going to be retracing the same travel an awful lot and the scenery isn't all that great (the ship art is some of the best visual design in the industry, but traveling through space itself is rather dull.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That's the least of the reasons EVE is unenjoyable, haha! The massive chunk of time you spent traveling to that mission which involved no gameplay (just time-wasting) is the much bigger failing of the game.
Thankfully there are enough gameplay-filled games out there that we needn't waste out time with an empty game experience.
[mod edit]
Not saying the game doesn't need improvement, it certainly does and PvE/Missioning is definitely a major area. The problem is most people fall into the "Mission or Mine" side of the PvE and miss out on a lot of the depth. I feel a lot of that has to do with the risk of players and the potential PvP. That's why majority of EVE players are in high security space. But everyone has their place.
You know, we used to stand around roleplaying for hours?
I wonder how many players could conceive of spending a year playing a game, without stabbing a single crittur--and enjoying the hell out of it. Weeks of preparation and practice for an event where we just made a ten-minute performance, otherwise sat around watching the creativity of other bards--for several nights a year, every year?
:shrug: There's no end to the variety of ways people can enjoy (or not) their gaming. It's a really good thing we have so many games to choose between.
That's not really a game example though. It's a brief performance with a lot of non-interactive entertainment (watching others) and socialization.
Golf was a better example, though at least in Golf you're getting in some walking and taking in some great sights that you rarely (if ever) have seen before. Whereas in a game like EVE you're going to be retracing the same travel an awful lot and the scenery isn't all that great (the ship art is some of the best visual design in the industry, but traveling through space itself is rather dull.)
How about sex? Is the removal-of-clothing part of the process unenjoyable? Rush to get past that boring foreplay?
"you're going to be retracing the same travel an awful lot and the scenery isn't all that great..."
We never tire of anal(ogies), do we?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
How about sex? Is the removal-of-clothing part of the process unenjoyable? Rush to get past that boring foreplay?
"you're going to be retracing the same travel an awful lot and the scenery isn't all that great..."
We never tire of anal(ogies), do we?
But we're discussing something which isn't fundamentally more amazing than something else. So it's like if you had two girls to choose from: one where you just do fun things together (one of them being sex,) and another that makes you wait outside her apartment for 5 hours doing nothing before you do things together.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Originally posted by UnleadedRev I want to like this game...But, everytime I come back to it once or twice a year for a week out of a one month subscription, I just get frustrated.Here is the latest fiasco....I realize, I need to do the storyline/career missions to make more ISK and get to the Sisters of EVE...ok, I am doing good, so this looks like fun.I get to the exploration agent and do the scanning data mission........arrrrgggghhhhh! Here is what happens to make me HATE EVE and not recommend it to anyone or stick with it:1) I do as the mission says, I scan the freaking data containers from the anomoly I detect using my probes first and then my scanner. I then am asked to hack the container.2) On the ones I hack successfully, the container blasts forth the loot I need to complete the mission, but no matter what I cannot open it and take loot in the 3 seconds it allows you before it disappears! WTF!?!?!I gave up after several hours...I guess i am too dumb to figure out what the issue is and the Corp folks are no help....too busy talking about WoW to help. A WASTED $15 again.
Did you trying contacting CCP support or a GM, or file a bug report?
I played EVE for about 3 years, been on a break for about a year but I do miss it. The last time I created an ALT I was shocked at the numerous times in my first couple of days GM's would send tells asking how I was enjoying the game and if I needed any help. I don't know if they still do this but this is why I am asking if you even attempted to contact anyone through official channels to get help.
This back and forth on downtime is hilarious. Travel boring in EVE? Traveling in EVERY MMO is boring accept EVE. Don't believe me, spend a couple of weeks mining or looting wrecks, take this work and haul it through non-HiSec space, heck I used to sweat bullets going through HiSec! It can be stressful, and that is (to me at least) the fun of EVE, that constant threat is from other players and not something you can program into NPC's. These players are unpredictable and can be downright ruthless and the only place your safe is docked, sometimes not even that will save you. This type of gameplay is not for everyone. I think as more games try to rip off each other and the MMO market continues it's downward spiral of mediocrity with the same theme-park mechanics games like EVE will continue to grow from the frustrated masses.
You know, we used to stand around roleplaying for hours?
I wonder how many players could conceive of spending a year playing a game, without stabbing a single crittur--and enjoying the hell out of it. Weeks of preparation and practice for an event where we just made a ten-minute performance, otherwise sat around watching the creativity of other bards--for several nights a year, every year?
:shrug: There's no end to the variety of ways people can enjoy (or not) their gaming. It's a really good thing we have so many games to choose between.
That's not really a game example though. It's a brief performance with a lot of non-interactive entertainment (watching others) and socialization.
Tagging this to post as a linked reply in the "Where's the roleplay?" "Where's the community?" threads. I think you guys just like the idea of interaction, because whenever anyone suggests anything outside of murdering stuff for xp and loot drops it's dismissed as irrelevant or unwanted.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Before I start, i play eve, i play wow, and several steam games, have tried several mmo's and stuff, typical gamer maybe.
Now, just because there's more downtime doesnt automatically = a bad game. With Eve its like, the more downtime the more intense fun you have later when your pvping and sh!t.
But to do this, you need to have played for several months usually to have a good grasp of the game and a good foothold within the game. The eve learning curve graph is accurate to some degree...
Its not like u cant get pulled out of warp or warp right into a gate ambush, its not like you cant buy and sell shit on the market, its not like u cant explore the game through the market by looking at the ships and their intended uses then finding out the skills you need to train while warping to a gate.
The game has plenty of gameplay, just not the gameplay you like.
Sometimes i dont even play eve for a week or once even for 2 weeks just because it was taking so long for a skill to train lol. Remember the days when you HAD to learn all the learning skills before going into other skills or it was practically a waste of time?
There's so much information in eve to take in that if your experiencing any downtime so early in ur playtime your not playing eve the way it was intended.
After all it is a niche game, niche meaning a small amount of people play it relatively speaking. Maybe your not one off those people ya know?
Tagging this to post as a linked reply in the "Where's the roleplay?" "Where's the community?" threads. I think you guys just like the idea of interaction, because whenever anyone suggests anything outside of murdering stuff for xp and loot drops it's dismissed as irrelevant or unwanted.
Nobody's saying anything of the sort. Interaction can be a hundred different things. Combat is one form. I play plenty of games, a number of which involve either no combat, or where combat isn't a focus.
But when a game enforces doing nothing, that's different.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.
As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost. The overwhelming feedback on travel in games is to cut to the chase. Similar to how a movie would be terrible if it involved 30 minutes of uneventful travel, a game is going to be poor entertainment if a player's typical session involves a lot of non-gameplay.
It's not that I choose to do nothing. It's that I want gameplay, but the game forces non-gameplay on me.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You know, we used to stand around roleplaying for hours?
I wonder how many players could conceive of spending a year playing a game, without stabbing a single crittur--and enjoying the hell out of it. Weeks of preparation and practice for an event where we just made a ten-minute performance, otherwise sat around watching the creativity of other bards--for several nights a year, every year?
:shrug: There's no end to the variety of ways people can enjoy (or not) their gaming. It's a really good thing we have so many games to choose between.
That's not really a game example though. It's a brief performance with a lot of non-interactive entertainment (watching others) and socialization.
Tagging this to post as a linked reply in the "Where's the roleplay?" "Where's the community?" threads. I think you guys just like the idea of interaction, because whenever anyone suggests anything outside of murdering stuff for xp and loot drops it's dismissed as irrelevant or unwanted.
Dismissed by whom? There's your key difference.
Please don't put me in a "you guys" with Axehilt. You know better.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Originally posted by Bladestrom If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.
But the overwhelming feedback on travel systems in games is exactly the opposite: to cut to the actual content. Much like how we don't watch movies that involve 2+ hours of actual travel time, in a game long travel is just not entertaining.
Axehilt kindly stop making a fool of yourself, it is obvious to anyone who spend more than a few hours playing EVE (let alone the years I've spent) that you know nothing about the game. You have latched onto the notion of forced downtime like a hungry baby latches onto a teet but no one is forcing you to have any downtime whatsoever because in EVE you can literally undock and do whatever you like the moment you undock (with the new scan mechanics you know how much stuff there is to blow up in terms of combat sites within your system, you can visit local belts if you're in a 0.7 or below system and splat rats, you can scan down anomalies for the chance of getting phat loots, and this can be done within 2-3 weeks of starting to play at the same level as a guy who's spent years in the game, how you may ask? low barrier of admission or just do whatever, you can even try your hand at Jita to tertiary hub trading and before you utter the word "travel" I shall utter the term "suicide ganker").
Axehilt kindly stop making a fool of yourself, it is obvious to anyone who spend more than a few hours playing EVE (let alone the years I've spent) that you know nothing about the game. You have latched onto the notion of forced downtime like a hungry baby latches onto a teet but no one is forcing you to have any downtime whatsoever because in EVE you can literally undock and do whatever you like the moment you undock (with the new scan mechanics you know how much stuff there is to blow up in terms of combat sites within your system, you can visit local belts if you're in a 0.7 or below system and splat rats, you can scan down anomalies for the chance of getting phat loots, and this can be done within 2-3 weeks of starting to play at the same level as a guy who's spent years in the game, how you may ask? low barrier of admission or just do whatever, you can even try your hand at Jita to tertiary hub trading and before you utter the word "travel" I shall utter the term "suicide ganker").
Are you saying that EVE travel time, as a percentage of overall playtime, is not more than typical games?
It seems obvious that's not the case.
Are you saying the moment I undock I can decide to be at a specific 0.0 sec coordinate and be there instantly?
That's obviously not the case either.
It seems like you're trying to pretend these realities of EVE don't exist. Look, if you want to profess that you feel all that downtime is worth it, then do that. But don't try to claim the game doesn't force downtime upon players, because it does.
In a typical game travel (or its equivalent) might eat up 5-15% of a session's total length, whereas in EVE that number is easily in excess of 25% (and I definitely did have sessions where it was over 50%, but that was partially because the utter monotony of travel caused the session to end prematurely when I switched to another game where I could be having fun with those gaming hours.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You sure like to throw these terms around like they're describing objective truths, don't you? As if your personal, subjective opinion of what makes a game
deep
and
fun
was some kind of universal law.
Newsflash: it's not! Different people have different ideas of what is fun, rewarding and interesting. The fact that you got bored of EVE does not mean the game lacks depth or complex, interesting gameplay, just that the game isn't for you - which also means you haven't really experienced all its aspects and thus are not qualified to judge it from an objective viewpoint.
I never made it far into WoW, but I wouldn't dream of coming to the WoW forums claiming that high-end raiding is shallow and requires no skill, just because I personally got bored of the fedex runs and "kill 10 X" questing at level 20.
You sure like to throw these terms around like they're describing objective truths, don't you? As if your personal, subjective opinion of what makes a game was some kind of universal law.
An attitude we see an awful lot whenever anyone discusses their particular favorites, or their dislikes.
You'll see the bittervets defining the entire genre through the lens of their first-love games, all the time.
Axe just likes to joust with those guys, and so his argument tends to assume a regular pattern in response to their regular patterns.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
You sure like to throw these terms around like they're describing objective truths, don't you? As if your personal, subjective opinion of what makes a game was some kind of universal law.
An attitude we see an awful lot whenever anyone discusses their particular favorites, or their dislikes.
You'll see the bittervets defining the entire genre through the lens of their first-love games, all the time.
Axe just likes to joust with those guys, and so his argument tends to assume a regular pattern in response to their regular patterns.
Yes, it's a very common attitude these days.
But that doesn't mean it's enjoyable, not even in jest - at least not on the scale this particular poster (and some others) are doing. If he's just trolling people he's rather dedicated though, I'll give him that.
Originally posted by Bladestrom If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.
As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost.
Are you seriously trying to say that if you started a thread on the EVE Online forums suggesting travel was removed or greatly reduced that most players would back you on that? It's bad enough you try to pass yourself off as a designer, but it's almost insulting that you think you could post something like that and think we'd believe you're an EVE player.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Axehilt kindly stop making a fool of yourself, it is obvious to anyone who spend more than a few hours playing EVE (let alone the years I've spent) that you know nothing about the game. You have latched onto the notion of forced downtime like a hungry baby latches onto a teet but no one is forcing you to have any downtime whatsoever because in EVE you can literally undock and do whatever you like the moment you undock (with the new scan mechanics you know how much stuff there is to blow up in terms of combat sites within your system, you can visit local belts if you're in a 0.7 or below system and splat rats, you can scan down anomalies for the chance of getting phat loots, and this can be done within 2-3 weeks of starting to play at the same level as a guy who's spent years in the game, how you may ask? low barrier of admission or just do whatever, you can even try your hand at Jita to tertiary hub trading and before you utter the word "travel" I shall utter the term "suicide ganker").
Are you saying that EVE travel time, as a percentage of overall playtime, is not more than typical games?
It seems obvious that's not the case.
Are you saying the moment I undock I can decide to be at a specific 0.0 sec coordinate and be there instantly?
That's obviously not the case either.
It seems like you're trying to pretend these realities of EVE don't exist. Look, if you want to profess that you feel all that downtime is worth it, then do that. But don't try to claim the game doesn't force downtime upon players, because it does.
In a typical game travel (or its equivalent) might eat up 5-15% of a session's total length, whereas in EVE that number is easily in excess of 25% (and I definitely did have sessions where it was over 50%, but that was partially because the utter monotony of travel caused the session to end prematurely when I switched to another game where I could be having fun with those gaming hours.)
It seems obvious you are at best equating your opinion with fact and at worse just a poor excuse of a troll. In EVE your choice dictates your degree of enjoyment and the more unrealistic your choices are vs your own capabilities the more you will suffer for it. It does not force downtime on you at all, it forces you to make choices and to, shockingly for your adrenaline fuelled mind that can't seem to go one minute without planting a sword into something, crafting a sword of a thousand truths to then plant it into something or sniffing achievement crank off the nearest doey elven breasts you can find, live with them. It is clear you cannot even comprehend the game let alone fathom what it offers and I truly pity the industry if you are a game developer of any sort.
Also fun fact for you: Today while jumping from system to system doing some exploration I made over 200 mil isk in under 2 hours while my heart was pounding trying to get both the dps down and the neuts off me. It was my choice to explore and learn how to best maximize time spent doing said exploration, sure there was maybe 5-10 minutes of travel time in those 120 minutes but if you point at that and say "seeee!! it's there!!! even for you!!!" I will ask you to not forget to take your medication.
Lol my point that devs listen to why people like things and if they don't understand why - they learn. Your approach is to tell those people are wrong and justify your own desires by claiming most in eve agree - even though this is obviously untrue. It's a bad behaviour for a designer it has to be said, I assume you are good at your job so your judgement must be clouded by your personal gaming desires here.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Originally posted by Bladestrom If you choose to do nothing while u travel that's your choice. You know when you design a system and you stakeholders and users tell you they enjoy a feature the best developers try to understand why. The worst developers try to argue for what they think is best, based on their own experience.
As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost.
Are you seriously trying to say that if you started a thread on the EVE Online forums suggesting travel was removed or greatly reduced that most players would back you on that? It's bad enough you try to pass yourself off as a designer, but it's almost insulting that you think you could post something like that and think we'd believe you're an EVE player.
+1. Another troll bites the dust
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
Lol yup since the eve player base does not in fact want such a thing, I'm guessing a good designer would aknowledge 'ah missing something here, many are enjoying travel in eve, I better analyse this in greater detail' or is it still a case of fingers in ears 'I'm right everyone else is wrong'.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
1. EVE doing things you couldn't imagine isn't really related to what I said, is it? The simple fact at hand is that EVE forces more downtime upon players than most other games. This causes it to have less of a focus on gameplay, and more on downtime. Meanwhile, whether EVE does unique things or not, the game doesn't really provide much depth on its own that you couldn't find (or make) in another game.
2. If you're serious that you don't understand how different genres' game designs are relevant, then I suppose that will drag the conversation down a few levels.
First, I recommend reading A Theory of Fun by Koster, as it hits the basics dead-on. It covers how the core of what makes most games fun is pattern mastery, and how this mastery triggers pleasure in our brains and makes up the core of fun games. Different games may achieve this in different ways, but they're achieving the same exact reaction from the brain.
This is why it's completely relevant to compare games across genres, especially in strokes as broad as we're talking about (like whether or not it's a good idea for 30% of the player's time to be wasted with non-gameplay.)
But the original point remains that many games out there are as deep or deeper than EVE, but without the excessive downtimes associated with it. They're basically EVE condensed into smaller, faster decisions (and that added time-pressure actually increases the challenge associated with performing well in the game.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
That's not really a game example though. It's a brief performance with a lot of non-interactive entertainment (watching others) and socialization.
Golf was a better example, though at least in Golf you're getting in some walking and taking in some great sights that you rarely (if ever) have seen before. Whereas in a game like EVE you're going to be retracing the same travel an awful lot and the scenery isn't all that great (the ship art is some of the best visual design in the industry, but traveling through space itself is rather dull.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
[mod edit]
Not saying the game doesn't need improvement, it certainly does and PvE/Missioning is definitely a major area. The problem is most people fall into the "Mission or Mine" side of the PvE and miss out on a lot of the depth. I feel a lot of that has to do with the risk of players and the potential PvP. That's why majority of EVE players are in high security space. But everyone has their place.
How about sex? Is the removal-of-clothing part of the process unenjoyable? Rush to get past that boring foreplay?
"you're going to be retracing the same travel an awful lot and the scenery isn't all that great..."
We never tire of anal(ogies), do we?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
But we're discussing something which isn't fundamentally more amazing than something else. So it's like if you had two girls to choose from: one where you just do fun things together (one of them being sex,) and another that makes you wait outside her apartment for 5 hours doing nothing before you do things together.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Did you trying contacting CCP support or a GM, or file a bug report?
I played EVE for about 3 years, been on a break for about a year but I do miss it. The last time I created an ALT I was shocked at the numerous times in my first couple of days GM's would send tells asking how I was enjoying the game and if I needed any help. I don't know if they still do this but this is why I am asking if you even attempted to contact anyone through official channels to get help.
This back and forth on downtime is hilarious. Travel boring in EVE? Traveling in EVERY MMO is boring accept EVE. Don't believe me, spend a couple of weeks mining or looting wrecks, take this work and haul it through non-HiSec space, heck I used to sweat bullets going through HiSec! It can be stressful, and that is (to me at least) the fun of EVE, that constant threat is from other players and not something you can program into NPC's. These players are unpredictable and can be downright ruthless and the only place your safe is docked, sometimes not even that will save you. This type of gameplay is not for everyone. I think as more games try to rip off each other and the MMO market continues it's downward spiral of mediocrity with the same theme-park mechanics games like EVE will continue to grow from the frustrated masses.
Tagging this to post as a linked reply in the "Where's the roleplay?" "Where's the community?" threads. I think you guys just like the idea of interaction, because whenever anyone suggests anything outside of murdering stuff for xp and loot drops it's dismissed as irrelevant or unwanted.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Here's my 2 cents, enjoy.
Before I start, i play eve, i play wow, and several steam games, have tried several mmo's and stuff, typical gamer maybe.
Now, just because there's more downtime doesnt automatically = a bad game. With Eve its like, the more downtime the more intense fun you have later when your pvping and sh!t.
But to do this, you need to have played for several months usually to have a good grasp of the game and a good foothold within the game. The eve learning curve graph is accurate to some degree...
Its not like u cant get pulled out of warp or warp right into a gate ambush, its not like you cant buy and sell shit on the market, its not like u cant explore the game through the market by looking at the ships and their intended uses then finding out the skills you need to train while warping to a gate.
The game has plenty of gameplay, just not the gameplay you like.
Sometimes i dont even play eve for a week or once even for 2 weeks just because it was taking so long for a skill to train lol. Remember the days when you HAD to learn all the learning skills before going into other skills or it was practically a waste of time?
There's so much information in eve to take in that if your experiencing any downtime so early in ur playtime your not playing eve the way it was intended.
After all it is a niche game, niche meaning a small amount of people play it relatively speaking. Maybe your not one off those people ya know?
Nobody's saying anything of the sort. Interaction can be a hundred different things. Combat is one form. I play plenty of games, a number of which involve either no combat, or where combat isn't a focus.
But when a game enforces doing nothing, that's different.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
As a designer I understand the reason EVE travel is the way it is, but I (and most players) feel like the gains aren't worth the cost. The overwhelming feedback on travel in games is to cut to the chase. Similar to how a movie would be terrible if it involved 30 minutes of uneventful travel, a game is going to be poor entertainment if a player's typical session involves a lot of non-gameplay.
It's not that I choose to do nothing. It's that I want gameplay, but the game forces non-gameplay on me.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
With regards to the OP: The difference between failure and success is determination.
EVE Online isn't instantly gratifying, much like a good novel, but much more rewarding when you stick to it.
Dismissed by whom? There's your key difference.
Please don't put me in a "you guys" with Axehilt. You know better.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Axehilt kindly stop making a fool of yourself, it is obvious to anyone who spend more than a few hours playing EVE (let alone the years I've spent) that you know nothing about the game. You have latched onto the notion of forced downtime like a hungry baby latches onto a teet but no one is forcing you to have any downtime whatsoever because in EVE you can literally undock and do whatever you like the moment you undock (with the new scan mechanics you know how much stuff there is to blow up in terms of combat sites within your system, you can visit local belts if you're in a 0.7 or below system and splat rats, you can scan down anomalies for the chance of getting phat loots, and this can be done within 2-3 weeks of starting to play at the same level as a guy who's spent years in the game, how you may ask? low barrier of admission or just do whatever, you can even try your hand at Jita to tertiary hub trading and before you utter the word "travel" I shall utter the term "suicide ganker").
Are you saying that EVE travel time, as a percentage of overall playtime, is not more than typical games?
It seems obvious that's not the case.
Are you saying the moment I undock I can decide to be at a specific 0.0 sec coordinate and be there instantly?
That's obviously not the case either.
It seems like you're trying to pretend these realities of EVE don't exist. Look, if you want to profess that you feel all that downtime is worth it, then do that. But don't try to claim the game doesn't force downtime upon players, because it does.
In a typical game travel (or its equivalent) might eat up 5-15% of a session's total length, whereas in EVE that number is easily in excess of 25% (and I definitely did have sessions where it was over 50%, but that was partially because the utter monotony of travel caused the session to end prematurely when I switched to another game where I could be having fun with those gaming hours.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
You sure like to throw these terms around like they're describing objective truths, don't you? As if your personal, subjective opinion of what makes a game
and
was some kind of universal law.
Newsflash: it's not! Different people have different ideas of what is fun, rewarding and interesting. The fact that you got bored of EVE does not mean the game lacks depth or complex, interesting gameplay, just that the game isn't for you - which also means you haven't really experienced all its aspects and thus are not qualified to judge it from an objective viewpoint.
I never made it far into WoW, but I wouldn't dream of coming to the WoW forums claiming that high-end raiding is shallow and requires no skill, just because I personally got bored of the fedex runs and "kill 10 X" questing at level 20.
An attitude we see an awful lot whenever anyone discusses their particular favorites, or their dislikes.
You'll see the bittervets defining the entire genre through the lens of their first-love games, all the time.
Axe just likes to joust with those guys, and so his argument tends to assume a regular pattern in response to their regular patterns.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Yes, it's a very common attitude these days.
But that doesn't mean it's enjoyable, not even in jest - at least not on the scale this particular poster (and some others) are doing. If he's just trolling people he's rather dedicated though, I'll give him that.
Are you seriously trying to say that if you started a thread on the EVE Online forums suggesting travel was removed or greatly reduced that most players would back you on that? It's bad enough you try to pass yourself off as a designer, but it's almost insulting that you think you could post something like that and think we'd believe you're an EVE player.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It seems obvious you are at best equating your opinion with fact and at worse just a poor excuse of a troll. In EVE your choice dictates your degree of enjoyment and the more unrealistic your choices are vs your own capabilities the more you will suffer for it. It does not force downtime on you at all, it forces you to make choices and to, shockingly for your adrenaline fuelled mind that can't seem to go one minute without planting a sword into something, crafting a sword of a thousand truths to then plant it into something or sniffing achievement crank off the nearest doey elven breasts you can find, live with them. It is clear you cannot even comprehend the game let alone fathom what it offers and I truly pity the industry if you are a game developer of any sort.
Also fun fact for you: Today while jumping from system to system doing some exploration I made over 200 mil isk in under 2 hours while my heart was pounding trying to get both the dps down and the neuts off me. It was my choice to explore and learn how to best maximize time spent doing said exploration, sure there was maybe 5-10 minutes of travel time in those 120 minutes but if you point at that and say "seeee!! it's there!!! even for you!!!" I will ask you to not forget to take your medication.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
+1. Another troll bites the dust
"EVE is likely the best MMORPG that you've never really understood or played" - Kyleran
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D