The only reason to hate the game comes down to human error and the biggest decision you have to make in EVE, your choice of corporation and style of play!
I have spent some days looking at potential corps and probably need to spend a week or two more. I dislike that some corps that seem well suited to me have a min. SP req. and right now I don't have a whole bunch of that. There is one corp I have singled out though that basically requires 2 months of sub before they consider you. So now I sit and wait training my character scoping out more potentials.
These kinds of reasons are the ones that should decide whether you hate the game, because EVE is a game where you need people around you. So I am going to make damn sure Im in a large corp with support networks that I can assist in.
I just got an email offer to play for free for five days on my old account. Deciding if I want to play again. My biggest issue with the game was that its like having sex for the first time. You take all this time in preparing, make sure everything is prepped and ready to go, and when it comes to game time its over before you even knew it. I've spent hours trying to search for exploration sites only to have someone come along and blow me up in three seconds sending me back to 50 jumps away empty handed.
I think joining a corp with voice comms would make all the difference. The only corp I was ever in was the starter corp and EVE U (or are those the same?). I could see getting onto TS and coordinating attacks, talking about women, what beer we're drinking, and laughing it up would make the experience a whole lot better.
________________________ Two atoms walk out of a bar. The first exclaims, "Damn, I forgot my electrons." The other replies, "You sure?". The first explains, "Yea, I'm positive."
I just got an email offer to play for free for five days on my old account. Deciding if I want to play again. My biggest issue with the game was that its like having sex for the first time. You take all this time in preparing, make sure everything is prepped and ready to go, and when it comes to game time its over before you even knew it. I've spent hours trying to search for exploration sites only to have someone come along and blow me up in three seconds sending me back to 50 jumps away empty handed.
I think joining a corp with voice comms would make all the difference. The only corp I was ever in was the starter corp and EVE U (or are those the same?). I could see getting onto TS and coordinating attacks, talking about women, what beer we're drinking, and laughing it up would make the experience a whole lot better.
If exploration is your thing, you'll find the new expansion makes it more accessible and easier to get into. As for a good corp, there's now a new corp finder tool that lets you search by playstyle, times online, content preference and several other factors.
EVE U is a player corp, not the starter NPC corp. If you hadn't joined them, I would definitely suggest checking them out.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Yea, I was in both corps. Iunno if I want to rejoin again. I must have like twenty 14 day trials because by week one I'm bored and move on. I have on account that I kept running for about 6 six months over the span of two years. I'd play for two months and move on. Come back, play for two months, move on, etc. I really want to enjoy this game, but I just can't seem to stick with it.
________________________ Two atoms walk out of a bar. The first exclaims, "Damn, I forgot my electrons." The other replies, "You sure?". The first explains, "Yea, I'm positive."
My experience seems to be entirely distracting you. The simple fact is that I'm describing a truth which is observable with no design experience whatsoever: players don't like having their time wasted.
You can understand this by imagining two games, otherwise identical, but one where travel takes 10x longer, and thinking through which of those games you would expect more players to enjoy. Use EVE and multiply it's travel times by 10 if you'd like.
You can understand this by having played games firsthand and understood that in game A it felt like your time was being wasted compared with game B.
You can even understand this by observing other media treats travel, and how a movie won't show that 8-hour trans continental flight in realtime. Instead we hear, "We leave for Rome tomorrow," and then see some establishing shots (airport stock footage, followed by Rome tourist attractions) and then 5-15 seconds later we're at the next scene.
...and by imagining how entertaining that movie would be if it contained the entire 8-hour trip.
These are all easily-observed, easily-understood ways of showing how players will prefer entertainment that doesn't deliberately waste their time. None of them require being a designer at all, so since that's distracting you just ignore it and focus on the truth of the matter.
This bit
So unless i have lost ability to read English what your saying is that in movies they don't show the whole flight but merely a short clip start > short clip onboard > short clip finish.. say 1 minute on a 120min film?
Now it would seem to me a bit pointless to make a film and have the whole 8 hour jounrey on a film, the film would be 10hours would it not??
This is the same as EvE, EvE is not a game just for Xmas, its a game for life!, and what might surprise you but to fly LY would actually take longer than 0.33 secs (noob ships fly 3ly per second) So eve does exactly the same as movies, it takes something that would take years to do, and condenses down, just like your train journey would take 8 hours and is done in 5seconds.
But, your assuming that people fly everywhere, the fact is i have one toon who in the last 3months has been in space for about 5minutes, now can you show me a game where travel required to play a game fulltime can be done in 3secs per day of game play (roughly 300secs in 3months game)
and yes i play this game all time, YOU DON'T HAVE TO FLY ANYWHERE TO PLAY EVE, in the end this comes down to single fact, you can do what/how you like in EvE, if you choose to be adventurer in eve flight is part of this game play, I build and as such 0 travel is required, everything is done remotely an the purchasing/moving of my goods is done by other toons, who surprisingly as courier spend all their time flying, their flight time is not wasted, its what they do to make isk....
My toon is progressing fine and he is not flying because i choose not, now you show me a game where 0 travel can level your toon up (levelling in the loose term is fine)
i just want to point one that OP did not post again in this thread and you ppl already made pages of posts .....
good point
Looking at the Op's posting history I would say that he is not trolling. In one of this other posts he bemoans that he is getting owned in PvE so I guess it is probably true what he says that he doesn't really click with EvE.
OFC I appreciate that doing PvE content in EvE as a newish player with lacklustre skills can lead to ship losses but that wasn't how I read his previous post. I could be mistaken of course.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
Come on, man. Loktofeit nailed you. Not even you can twist your way out of this one
I maintain my position that you can't stand the game (which is fair), you get bored quickly and stop playing, and you have never actually experienced "the meat and potatoes" of EVE. This is pretty transparent to me, and clearly I'm not alone.
Well it genuinely wasn't a backpedal, and the truth of the matter stands that most players (meaning most players) don't appreciate having their time wasted.
If you want to claim a small victory that I've unswervingly stated exactly what I meant, then well...I suppose I should celebrate with you! The truth and original meaning has been clarified!
"Get bored quickly" is, of course, relative. From the standpoint of most players (meaning most players), I have a rather large amount of patience for games. But not inexhaustible, as EVE tested those limits. In my incredibly long walk I found a few twigs and berries, decided it wasn't for me, and drove to my favorite steak restaurant for some meat and potatoes.
Really, you have went from the position that most eve players agree with you (which was obviously a lie and called out swiftly) to your arguements are valid because no-one likes there time wasted - which is a play on words - everyone on the planet does not like their times wasted, this has nothing to do with the discussion.
As an 'Analyst Developer' (to play the career card) I personally understand games with slow travel and games with fast travel actually suit DIFFERENT AUDIENCES. the Eve audience prefer slow travel, Others prefer fast - thats healthy design. I also understand people who like slow travel are not ignorant fools, I appreciate they have their own valid experiences which will include fast travel gameplay.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Really, you have went from the position that most eve players agree with you (which was obviously a lie and called out swiftly) to your arguements are valid because no-one likes there time wasted - which is a play on words - everyone on the planet does not like their times wasted, this has nothing to do with the discussion.
As an 'Analyst Developer' (to play the career card) I personally understand games with slow travel and games with fast travel actually suit DIFFERENT AUDIENCES. the Eve audience prefer slow travel, Others prefer fast - thats healthy design. I also understand people who like slow travel are not ignorant fools, I appreciate they have their own valid experiences which will include fast travel gameplay.
Again, you're going to have to quote something I said if you want to discuss my saying it. Until then, you're fabricating a discussion out of thin air. It's not appreciated.
I said most players (meaning most players) don't feel the gains are worth the cost when it comes to excessively time-consuming travel.
"Time wasted" isn't a play on words. When someone feels the gains aren't worth the time investment, that's exactly how they're going to describe an activity: a waste of time. Simple and straightforward.
Of course EVE suits a different audience. That's implied by pointing out that most players (meaning most players) feel slow travel is time-wasting. I never said EVE players couldn't or shouldn't enjoy the game they enjoy -- that would be ridiculous.
Nobody said EVE players are ignorant fools. They simply have a greater capacity for spending their time where it lacks a direct benefit.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
You want instant travel? You have that in EVE, clone jumping. Oh, you want your ships and gear to go with you, tough or hitch a ride in somebody's Orca. AFKable? You have not used AutoPilot?
Travel is a reality of EVE. It's necessary for what EVE is. Any isolated examples (I'm not too familiar with clone jumping) don't solve the fundamental problem that 99% of the time you're going to have to leg it the slow way, and it will be boring unless you find something else to do.
Autopilot also clearly isn't a solution, because as I pointed out: EVE travel feels AFKable, but it's not safe to actually AFK.
To be clear, I'm not trying to "solve" this problem for EVE.
I'm stating three simple things:
Travel in EVE is largely unavoidable. While minor workarounds may occasionally exist, travel is an unavoidable reality of EVE.
Travel lacks decisions, so it lacks gameplay. So it's required non-gameplay. Again, there are some rare situations here where travel is eventful, but the majority of the time it's virtually AFKable (except don't, because the game is designed for that to be a Really Bad Move.)
And then my subjective opinion that other games provide just as much fun as EVE without such a large non-gameplay "tax" to pay. (That's being a bit generous, as in the very best cases EVE's gameplay was significantly less fun than I've had in other games.)
All you're proving is that it's possible to play EVE in a way that's boring. And you're absolutely correct, it is.
Where people are disagreeing with you, and it's either going over your head or you're chosing to ignore it, is that it's not mandatory.
You find travel boring? OK move to Curse or Stain: travelling 2--3 systems is now an exercise in terror and danger.
All you're proving is that it's possible to play EVE in a way that's boring. And you're absolutely correct, it is.
Where people are disagreeing with you, and it's either going over your head or you're chosing to ignore it, is that it's not mandatory.
You find travel boring? OK move to Curse or Stain: travelling 2--3 systems is now an exercise in terror and danger.
But are the rewards worth it? Is this the way you play EVE? Or do you avoid it because the risk vs. reward is terrible? Or perhaps it misses out on a lot of what makes EVE fun?
There are too many games which don't force me into an awkward decision between (A) not having my time deliberately wasted, or (B) experiencing the game's best features and playing the game optimally. But in EVE my guess is you get one or the other, and that telling me I could go to those systems is a bit like telling a Call of Duty player, "Don't like guns? Only use melee then!" which is mostly bad advice (especially to a newer player.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't see why you insist that travelling is a huge forced part of the eve experience. Not only your initial assertions are wrong (travel is not a big part of the game if you don't want it to be) but so are your conclusions (lots of traveling is lack of gameplay).
Most people tend to stick to a region due to corp location and area of activity or simply because of proximity to popular mission,nullsec or exploration systems. This means that for 90% of the time, the average user does at most 2-5 jumps to wherever he needs to go .. Heck, it's at most a 2-5 minute ride most of the time.
What you're failing to acknoledge is that the sheer amount of _potential_ travel time there is between remote regions of the universe adds a different layer of immersion to the game that isn't very pronounced in most other games. Taking merchandise over long distances means you _can_ get ganked along the way (especially on autopilot). Moving allied forces 30 jumps away during a war has a time and cost tradeoff, people that want to maximize wormhole ops sometimes need to establish bases and actually live there for several days in a unknown and dangerous environment. People that learn how the market works can make a living checking prices and hauling goods light years away to sell for more. For the same reason, it promotes the use of different war mechanics (jump gates), which again have costs that are completly dependent on player driven markets. If this game had instant travel, none of these scenarios would make sense and I'm sure there are plenty of more to list.
So no, nothing forces you to endlessly travel around if you don't want to (and traveling adds much more to the game play than it "removes", indirectly). Same way as nothing forces you to take a given path on this game. It's called a sandbox for a reason, not a watered down one. For those that don't mind having an extra 'downtime' as you call it in their gameplay, there are several ways to take advantage of that. In the end, the benefits far outweight the cons and your assertion of 'knowing what most people want' would only be met with ridicule if you proposed something like this in the official game forums.
The reason there is quick/instant travel to anywhere in the world is what kills the sense of space and immersion to me in a lot of modern MMOs. Easy access to everything and instant gratification is NOT what eve is about, and that is one of the reasons why some people love this game while others hate it. Don't try to pin down the 'lack of gameplay' excuse on this one because the game doesen't offer what you want or because you don't understand how it works.
The reason there is quick/instant travel to anywhere in the world is what kills the sense of space and immersion to me in a lot of modern MMOs. Easy access to everything and instant gratification is NOT what eve is about, and that is one of the reasons why some people love this game while others hate it. Don't try to pin down the 'lack of gameplay' excuse on this one because the game doesen't offer what you want or because you don't understand how it works.
You are 100% right on instant gratification is not what eve is about. Casual gamers can play eve but they will be missing out on a lot of the game and really the game is not for the casual gamer. EVE is an acquired taste, and many will not acquire that taste. Those who absolutely do not like any form of pvp will not like EVE. There is a chance of it just about anywhere in the game.
PvP in EVE can include getting your ship bumped around by others who do not like those who afk-mine. Belonging to a player corp has many benefits but also carries the risk of war. Belonging to a npc-corp means war will not happen but suicide ganks will occur and bumping also occurs. But guess what - you can avoid all of those by playing safe. Align your ship to a safe space/station/gate. Have an ear on local chat(not saying post a lot there just saying listen to it) Be aware if someone comes into your belt and is not in a mining ship. Be prepared to cut and run at a moment's notice. If you are mining and have killed npc pirtaes - either have the means to salvage those wrecks , detroy them, or make them safe for otherss to salvage. play it safe, do not fly ships you cannot afford to lose - hul;ks are nice but if losing one will bankrupt you - you should not be flying one yet. Being aware of where you are is important. If you are flying in lo-sec ot null space you are in danger, don't forget that. Be aware, be aware, be aware. lol EVE is a great game. I am not playing it because it makes me go crazy and my wife gets mad.
OP, despite claiming to be a game programmer is coming off a bit like the me from 2004. When I first tried EVE with a friend from the Army, I made a Gallente Military Academy recruit named Kabura, joined a Corp with that friend and some of his friends from home. Trained "Learning" skills to lvl 3 then fast tracked to the best combat ship for Gall at the time the Thorax. On a mining cruise with the corp took out a caracal and a raven.. left the game shortly after that because I could not understand all the complexities.. Several years later returned to game having to start over with a character named Jarlwof, did all the "learning" skills again this time to 4 then fast to the Enyo before joining the corp Otakus Society where we were in constant corp battles and I earned a name by holding a kitted out Myrm to a standstill....left game again because I was tired of the pvp...a few years later returned as Arubak and actually participated in some of the fight with the NC against the Reds for 5h-sm2 Wicked Creek, lost a few Megas several frigs and even my nvidia geforce 5200 due to heat issues from the battle...EVE is not for everyone hell its not far those who want instant gratification...Which OP comes off as...Arubak currently can fly a kronos and i do plan on returning to game once i can...Axe is the gamer i used to be and a horrible troll to boot.
1: Travel Time: FFS unlike WoW in EVE you do not need to find all the travel points...WoWs actual travel time for that reason is exponentially increased per flight path in a zone since you have to find them on FOOT first..EVE you set destination chance parameters to avoid lo-sec if you want and auto-pilot while still paying attention to the game while still sorting inventory that is spread out over umpteen systems.
2:Forced to Travel: ALL GAMES FORCE YOU TO TRAVEL FFS...EVE just has valid reasoning behind the length of time it takes...It isnt considered the LARGEST sandbox for nothing...last count I remember was something of 1100 different systems to explore...
I find this discussion interesting. Having played EVE a fair bit myself and never having any trouble with the travel times, I find the notion that a lot of long,boring travel is forced on you to be a bit of a stretch. For a good 5 years, my main character never went more than 3 jumps from his home station. Even when I had to go farther than that, which over the time I've played is quite frequent as I've moved around a lot save for that one stretch, I always just accepted that while travel was by itself often boring and dull, there was a great deal of other things to do, and the fact that I could do them while traveling instead of having to do each thing separately was always useful. And that's just monkeying around in high sec; in the rest of space, travel is truly an activity that requires a fair bit of attention in and of itself. In Axe's defense, I will admit that EVE's travel system would not port well to most modern MMOs (the same could be said for most of EVE's systems, to be honest), but for EVE, I've found that it works. CCP does a much better job of integrating the individual systems into a unified whole than most companies, making it possible for a slow travel system to be an opportunity for deeper game play rather than a nuisance to be gotten through so that the rest of the game can be enjoyed; even when travel isn't providing direct game play in EVE, it still facilitates indirect game play in ways that few fast travel systems can match.
This means that for 90% of the time, the average user does at most 2-5 jumps to wherever he needs to go .. Heck, it's at most a 2-5 minute ride most of the time.
Yes, exactly! Thank you!
This completely justifies my point that EVE travel is 2-5 times longer than other MMORPGs where you only need maybe a minute of travel to get to the actual content you want to do.
That's all I'm trying to say: that for 90% of players travel is 2-5 times longer (and for some it's much more) than a typical MMORPG. While you clearly weren't trying to help me make my point, you've brought the perfect estimate into the conversation which proves my point.
Thanks for putting an end to the discussion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
1: Travel Time: FFS unlike WoW in EVE you do not need to find all the travel points...WoWs actual travel time for that reason is exponentially increased per flight path in a zone since you have to find them on FOOT first..EVE you set destination chance parameters to avoid lo-sec if you want and auto-pilot while still paying attention to the game while still sorting inventory that is spread out over umpteen systems.
2:Forced to Travel: ALL GAMES FORCE YOU TO TRAVEL FFS...EVE just has valid reasoning behind the length of time it takes...It isnt considered the LARGEST sandbox for nothing...last count I remember was something of 1100 different systems to explore...
1. Only a tiny handful of players care about "finding all the travel points". That's not what this is about. This is about how much travel is required to simply play the game.
If EVE's travel time, at it's most positively-spun estimate, is 2-5 times as much as another game, are you actually getting 2-5 times as much content quality out of the game? Perhaps EVE players feel the game provides an experience 2-5 times better than other games.
My experience was EVE's content quality wasn't even worth equal travel time with another game. I fell asleep missioning and ratting almost as much as I did traveling.
2. Nobody's criticizing travel, and I've pointed out multiple times that travel is a reality of EVE because of how it's constructed. The subjective criticism is that spending a much larger chunk of your time in much longer travel isn't a very effective tradeoff: you're not getting 2-5 times as much gameplay for the 2-5 times as much traveling you're doing. Travel is fine. Excessive travel isn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
2. Nobody's criticizing travel, and I've pointed out multiple times that travel is a reality of EVE because of how it's constructed. The subjective criticism is that spending a much larger chunk of your time in much longer travel isn't a very effective tradeoff: you're not getting 2-5 times as much gameplay for the 2-5 times as much traveling you're doing. Travel is fine. Excessive travel isn't.
Again you missed the point I and several others were making that the travel time can and is most often used for players to organize the rest of the crap they have strewn across the game, chart courses that make for the least amount of jumps to get what they need from another area, and if they have a Market Magnate in the corp where to sell some things for the most bang. FFS I've missed that I was done with traveling quite a few times because I was so busy looking at what I had where and where it needed to go for selling. I once sold a full t2 kitted Enyo as a contract in BFE Amarr space for a substantial amount of profit due to this. Travel in EVE equates to deal making and profiting, especially if one is a builder or miner. I've lost a few million isk because I didn't do my research on where to sell a few hundred thousand m3 of minerals. Travel is what drives the economy, it drives the combat, it drives pvp. I've known pvp'ers to travel 56 jumps just to join in on a fracas that was just starting up, and I'm not talking the major recording Alliance v Alliance conflicts or like I mentioned before the 5H-SM2 fiasco, NC had people jumping from the other side of EVE to join in on the combat to protect the territory. EVE's travel is necessary and is a welcome break from combat to some, and even then most still have an eye out for hard targets.
If anybody from Tactical Narcotics Teams read this what's up fellows.
This means that for 90% of the time, the average user does at most 2-5 jumps to wherever he needs to go .. Heck, it's at most a 2-5 minute ride most of the time.
Yes, exactly! Thank you!
This completely justifies my point that EVE travel is 2-5 times longer than other MMORPGs where you only need maybe a minute of travel to get to the actual content you want to do.
That's all I'm trying to say: that for 90% of players travel is 2-5 times longer (and for some it's much more) than a typical MMORPG. While you clearly weren't trying to help me make my point, you've brought the perfect estimate into the conversation which proves my point.
Thanks for putting an end to the discussion.
There's also 2-5 times more stuff to do while traveling in EVE then there is in most games, so it balances out. Trying to treat travel as purely getting from point A to point B in EVE is missing a large portion of the game; travel is not getting your ship blown up, getting your inventory arranged, doing PI, and any number of other things while the ship is moving. You would have a sound point if travel in EVE was much like travel in most modern MMOs, where the worlds are largely pointless, and nothing will ever change about any given route, but the point you seem to be missing is that EVE is very deliberately not that kind of game. Even traveling the same route has the chance of being a different experience each and every time. If the discussion could truly be confined to just travel systems, you would have a much stronger position; unfortunately, any discussion of travel systems must include options of what to do while traveling, and that is where your argument breaks down. Travel in EVE is only boring if you refuse to do anything but stare at the screen rather than the dozen other options you have. Very few games can say that, which is why so people really understand the appeal of slower travel. Games built for instant gratification will naturally require travel systems that support that kind of play while games like EVE actually take the time to make the travel portion itself part of the game.
1: Travel Time: FFS unlike WoW in EVE you do not need to find all the travel points...WoWs actual travel time for that reason is exponentially increased per flight path in a zone since you have to find them on FOOT first..EVE you set destination chance parameters to avoid lo-sec if you want and auto-pilot while still paying attention to the game while still sorting inventory that is spread out over umpteen systems.
2:Forced to Travel: ALL GAMES FORCE YOU TO TRAVEL FFS...EVE just has valid reasoning behind the length of time it takes...It isnt considered the LARGEST sandbox for nothing...last count I remember was something of 1100 different systems to explore...
1. Only a tiny handful of players care about "finding all the travel points". That's not what this is about. This is about how much travel is required to simply play the game.
If EVE's travel time, at it's most positively-spun estimate, is 2-5 times as much as another game, are you actually getting 2-5 times as much content quality out of the game? Perhaps EVE players feel the game provides an experience 2-5 times better than other games.
My experience was EVE's content quality wasn't even worth equal travel time with another game. I fell asleep missioning and ratting almost as much as I did traveling.
2. Nobody's criticizing travel, and I've pointed out multiple times that travel is a reality of EVE because of how it's constructed. The subjective criticism is that spending a much larger chunk of your time in much longer travel isn't a very effective tradeoff: you're not getting 2-5 times as much gameplay for the 2-5 times as much traveling you're doing. Travel is fine. Excessive travel isn't.
I don't see where you are getting this travel time is 2 to 5 times longer in Eve than any other mmo. I have to call BS on that. Eve takes less than a minute per jump and I very seldom have to jump more than 2 or 3 times while missioning. Sure it's a million times longer to get to one end of the game to the other, I'll give you that. But then again the game world is an ENTIRE GDAMN GALAXY!
I can't even begin to fathom the endless hours I've spent traversing various landscapes on mounts in you typical mmo's. I'm not even counting static travel paths like WoW has. GW2 is the only game that comes to mind with almost 0 travel time, but even then you can get a long run or two ahead of you. The travel time between quests or quests turn ins or quest hubs or even going to an instance.
Another thing, to go into a game about freakin' SPACESHIPS and not expect to travel is asinine. WTF do spaceships do BUT travel in space? It's kind of their thing.
1: Travel Time: FFS unlike WoW in EVE you do not need to find all the travel points...WoWs actual travel time for that reason is exponentially increased per flight path in a zone since you have to find them on FOOT first..EVE you set destination chance parameters to avoid lo-sec if you want and auto-pilot while still paying attention to the game while still sorting inventory that is spread out over umpteen systems.
2:Forced to Travel: ALL GAMES FORCE YOU TO TRAVEL FFS...EVE just has valid reasoning behind the length of time it takes...It isnt considered the LARGEST sandbox for nothing...last count I remember was something of 1100 different systems to explore...
1. Only a tiny handful of players care about "finding all the travel points". That's not what this is about. This is about how much travel is required to simply play the game.
If EVE's travel time, at it's most positively-spun estimate, is 2-5 times as much as another game, are you actually getting 2-5 times as much content quality out of the game? Perhaps EVE players feel the game provides an experience 2-5 times better than other games.
My experience was EVE's content quality wasn't even worth equal travel time with another game. I fell asleep missioning and ratting almost as much as I did traveling.
2. Nobody's criticizing travel, and I've pointed out multiple times that travel is a reality of EVE because of how it's constructed. The subjective criticism is that spending a much larger chunk of your time in much longer travel isn't a very effective tradeoff: you're not getting 2-5 times as much gameplay for the 2-5 times as much traveling you're doing. Travel is fine. Excessive travel isn't.
I don't see where you are getting this travel time is 2 to 5 times longer in Eve than any other mmo. I have to call BS on that. Eve takes less than a minute per jump and I very seldom have to jump more than 2 or 3 times while missioning. Sure it's a million times longer to get to one end of the game to the other, I'll give you that. But then again the game world is an ENTIRE GDAMN GALAXY! I would expect nothing less.
I can't even begin to fathom the endless hours I've spent traversing various landscapes on mounts in your typical mmo's. I'm not even counting static travel paths like WoW has. GW2 is the only game that comes to mind with almost 0 travel time, but even then you can get a long run or two ahead of you. The travel time between quests or quests turn ins or quest hubs or even going to an instance is always a minute or two. What makes that any different than 2-3 minutes jumping from gate to gate? The fact that you are doing it on land? Or on a mount?
Another thing, to go into a game about freakin' SPACESHIPS and not expect to travel is asinine. WTF do spaceships do BUT travel in space? It's kind of their thing.
I don't see where you are getting this travel time is 2 to 5 times longer in Eve than any other mmo. I have to call BS on that. Eve takes less than a minute per jump and I very seldom have to jump more than 2 or 3 times while missioning. Sure it's a million times longer to get to one end of the game to the other, I'll give you that. But then again the game world is an ENTIRE GDAMN GALAXY!
I can't even begin to fathom the endless hours I've spent traversing various landscapes on mounts in you typical mmo's. I'm not even counting static travel paths like WoW has. GW2 is the only game that comes to mind with almost 0 travel time, but even then you can get a long run or two ahead of you. The travel time between quests or quests turn ins or quest hubs or even going to an instance.
Another thing, to go into a game about freakin' SPACESHIPS and not expect to travel is asinine. WTF do spaceships do BUT travel in space? It's kind of their thing.
An EVE player commented that 90% of players spend about 2-5 mins traveling between each activity. In a typical MMORPG it's more like 10-60 seconds between each new thing you do. So 2-5 times longer is about fair.
As for "it's a galaxy!", games aren't measured by world size, they're measured by fun.
Of course I expect some travel. Some travel is fine. Freespace 2 had some travel. In any entertainment medium you need to show some travel to establish the player's location in the world.
What I don't expect is to see all travel. Much like how you probably don't want to watch a year-long real-time-travel version of Lord of the Rings as a movie. You want to skip to the good parts.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Comments
The only reason to hate the game comes down to human error and the biggest decision you have to make in EVE, your choice of corporation and style of play!
I have spent some days looking at potential corps and probably need to spend a week or two more. I dislike that some corps that seem well suited to me have a min. SP req. and right now I don't have a whole bunch of that. There is one corp I have singled out though that basically requires 2 months of sub before they consider you. So now I sit and wait training my character scoping out more potentials.
These kinds of reasons are the ones that should decide whether you hate the game, because EVE is a game where you need people around you. So I am going to make damn sure Im in a large corp with support networks that I can assist in.
I just got an email offer to play for free for five days on my old account. Deciding if I want to play again. My biggest issue with the game was that its like having sex for the first time. You take all this time in preparing, make sure everything is prepped and ready to go, and when it comes to game time its over before you even knew it. I've spent hours trying to search for exploration sites only to have someone come along and blow me up in three seconds sending me back to 50 jumps away empty handed.
I think joining a corp with voice comms would make all the difference. The only corp I was ever in was the starter corp and EVE U (or are those the same?). I could see getting onto TS and coordinating attacks, talking about women, what beer we're drinking, and laughing it up would make the experience a whole lot better.
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Two atoms walk out of a bar. The first exclaims, "Damn, I forgot my electrons." The other replies, "You sure?". The first explains, "Yea, I'm positive."
If exploration is your thing, you'll find the new expansion makes it more accessible and easier to get into. As for a good corp, there's now a new corp finder tool that lets you search by playstyle, times online, content preference and several other factors.
EVE U is a player corp, not the starter NPC corp. If you hadn't joined them, I would definitely suggest checking them out.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
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Two atoms walk out of a bar. The first exclaims, "Damn, I forgot my electrons." The other replies, "You sure?". The first explains, "Yea, I'm positive."
This bit
So unless i have lost ability to read English what your saying is that in movies they don't show the whole flight but merely a short clip start > short clip onboard > short clip finish.. say 1 minute on a 120min film?
Now it would seem to me a bit pointless to make a film and have the whole 8 hour jounrey on a film, the film would be 10hours would it not??
This is the same as EvE, EvE is not a game just for Xmas, its a game for life!, and what might surprise you but to fly LY would actually take longer than 0.33 secs (noob ships fly 3ly per second) So eve does exactly the same as movies, it takes something that would take years to do, and condenses down, just like your train journey would take 8 hours and is done in 5seconds.
But, your assuming that people fly everywhere, the fact is i have one toon who in the last 3months has been in space for about 5minutes, now can you show me a game where travel required to play a game fulltime can be done in 3secs per day of game play (roughly 300secs in 3months game)
and yes i play this game all time, YOU DON'T HAVE TO FLY ANYWHERE TO PLAY EVE, in the end this comes down to single fact, you can do what/how you like in EvE, if you choose to be adventurer in eve flight is part of this game play, I build and as such 0 travel is required, everything is done remotely an the purchasing/moving of my goods is done by other toons, who surprisingly as courier spend all their time flying, their flight time is not wasted, its what they do to make isk....
My toon is progressing fine and he is not flying because i choose not, now you show me a game where 0 travel can level your toon up (levelling in the loose term is fine)
This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game
where of course you're welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy
i just want to point one that OP did not post again in this thread and you ppl already made pages of posts .....
BestSigEver :P
good point
Looking at the Op's posting history I would say that he is not trolling. In one of this other posts he bemoans that he is getting owned in PvE so I guess it is probably true what he says that he doesn't really click with EvE.
OFC I appreciate that doing PvE content in EvE as a newish player with lacklustre skills can lead to ship losses but that wasn't how I read his previous post. I could be mistaken of course.
I sometimes make spelling and grammar errors but I don't pretend it's because I'm using a phone
Really, you have went from the position that most eve players agree with you (which was obviously a lie and called out swiftly) to your arguements are valid because no-one likes there time wasted - which is a play on words - everyone on the planet does not like their times wasted, this has nothing to do with the discussion.
As an 'Analyst Developer' (to play the career card) I personally understand games with slow travel and games with fast travel actually suit DIFFERENT AUDIENCES. the Eve audience prefer slow travel, Others prefer fast - thats healthy design. I also understand people who like slow travel are not ignorant fools, I appreciate they have their own valid experiences which will include fast travel gameplay.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Again, you're going to have to quote something I said if you want to discuss my saying it. Until then, you're fabricating a discussion out of thin air. It's not appreciated.
I said most players (meaning most players) don't feel the gains are worth the cost when it comes to excessively time-consuming travel.
"Time wasted" isn't a play on words. When someone feels the gains aren't worth the time investment, that's exactly how they're going to describe an activity: a waste of time. Simple and straightforward.
Of course EVE suits a different audience. That's implied by pointing out that most players (meaning most players) feel slow travel is time-wasting. I never said EVE players couldn't or shouldn't enjoy the game they enjoy -- that would be ridiculous.
Nobody said EVE players are ignorant fools. They simply have a greater capacity for spending their time where it lacks a direct benefit.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Pfft... as if threads are owned by their OP. But welcome to the party and we people thank you people for your contribution.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All you're proving is that it's possible to play EVE in a way that's boring. And you're absolutely correct, it is.
Where people are disagreeing with you, and it's either going over your head or you're chosing to ignore it, is that it's not mandatory.
You find travel boring? OK move to Curse or Stain: travelling 2--3 systems is now an exercise in terror and danger.
Give me liberty or give me lasers
But are the rewards worth it? Is this the way you play EVE? Or do you avoid it because the risk vs. reward is terrible? Or perhaps it misses out on a lot of what makes EVE fun?
There are too many games which don't force me into an awkward decision between (A) not having my time deliberately wasted, or (B) experiencing the game's best features and playing the game optimally. But in EVE my guess is you get one or the other, and that telling me I could go to those systems is a bit like telling a Call of Duty player, "Don't like guns? Only use melee then!" which is mostly bad advice (especially to a newer player.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I don't see why you insist that travelling is a huge forced part of the eve experience. Not only your initial assertions are wrong (travel is not a big part of the game if you don't want it to be) but so are your conclusions (lots of traveling is lack of gameplay).
Most people tend to stick to a region due to corp location and area of activity or simply because of proximity to popular mission,nullsec or exploration systems. This means that for 90% of the time, the average user does at most 2-5 jumps to wherever he needs to go .. Heck, it's at most a 2-5 minute ride most of the time.
What you're failing to acknoledge is that the sheer amount of _potential_ travel time there is between remote regions of the universe adds a different layer of immersion to the game that isn't very pronounced in most other games. Taking merchandise over long distances means you _can_ get ganked along the way (especially on autopilot). Moving allied forces 30 jumps away during a war has a time and cost tradeoff, people that want to maximize wormhole ops sometimes need to establish bases and actually live there for several days in a unknown and dangerous environment. People that learn how the market works can make a living checking prices and hauling goods light years away to sell for more. For the same reason, it promotes the use of different war mechanics (jump gates), which again have costs that are completly dependent on player driven markets. If this game had instant travel, none of these scenarios would make sense and I'm sure there are plenty of more to list.
So no, nothing forces you to endlessly travel around if you don't want to (and traveling adds much more to the game play than it "removes", indirectly). Same way as nothing forces you to take a given path on this game. It's called a sandbox for a reason, not a watered down one. For those that don't mind having an extra 'downtime' as you call it in their gameplay, there are several ways to take advantage of that. In the end, the benefits far outweight the cons and your assertion of 'knowing what most people want' would only be met with ridicule if you proposed something like this in the official game forums.
The reason there is quick/instant travel to anywhere in the world is what kills the sense of space and immersion to me in a lot of modern MMOs. Easy access to everything and instant gratification is NOT what eve is about, and that is one of the reasons why some people love this game while others hate it. Don't try to pin down the 'lack of gameplay' excuse on this one because the game doesen't offer what you want or because you don't understand how it works.
You are 100% right on instant gratification is not what eve is about. Casual gamers can play eve but they will be missing out on a lot of the game and really the game is not for the casual gamer. EVE is an acquired taste, and many will not acquire that taste. Those who absolutely do not like any form of pvp will not like EVE. There is a chance of it just about anywhere in the game.
PvP in EVE can include getting your ship bumped around by others who do not like those who afk-mine. Belonging to a player corp has many benefits but also carries the risk of war. Belonging to a npc-corp means war will not happen but suicide ganks will occur and bumping also occurs. But guess what - you can avoid all of those by playing safe. Align your ship to a safe space/station/gate. Have an ear on local chat(not saying post a lot there just saying listen to it) Be aware if someone comes into your belt and is not in a mining ship. Be prepared to cut and run at a moment's notice. If you are mining and have killed npc pirtaes - either have the means to salvage those wrecks , detroy them, or make them safe for otherss to salvage. play it safe, do not fly ships you cannot afford to lose - hul;ks are nice but if losing one will bankrupt you - you should not be flying one yet. Being aware of where you are is important. If you are flying in lo-sec ot null space you are in danger, don't forget that. Be aware, be aware, be aware. lol EVE is a great game. I am not playing it because it makes me go crazy and my wife gets mad.
Currently bored with MMO's.
OP, despite claiming to be a game programmer is coming off a bit like the me from 2004. When I first tried EVE with a friend from the Army, I made a Gallente Military Academy recruit named Kabura, joined a Corp with that friend and some of his friends from home. Trained "Learning" skills to lvl 3 then fast tracked to the best combat ship for Gall at the time the Thorax. On a mining cruise with the corp took out a caracal and a raven.. left the game shortly after that because I could not understand all the complexities.. Several years later returned to game having to start over with a character named Jarlwof, did all the "learning" skills again this time to 4 then fast to the Enyo before joining the corp Otakus Society where we were in constant corp battles and I earned a name by holding a kitted out Myrm to a standstill....left game again because I was tired of the pvp...a few years later returned as Arubak and actually participated in some of the fight with the NC against the Reds for 5h-sm2 Wicked Creek, lost a few Megas several frigs and even my nvidia geforce 5200 due to heat issues from the battle...EVE is not for everyone hell its not far those who want instant gratification...Which OP comes off as...Arubak currently can fly a kronos and i do plan on returning to game once i can...Axe is the gamer i used to be and a horrible troll to boot.
1: Travel Time: FFS unlike WoW in EVE you do not need to find all the travel points...WoWs actual travel time for that reason is exponentially increased per flight path in a zone since you have to find them on FOOT first..EVE you set destination chance parameters to avoid lo-sec if you want and auto-pilot while still paying attention to the game while still sorting inventory that is spread out over umpteen systems.
2:Forced to Travel: ALL GAMES FORCE YOU TO TRAVEL FFS...EVE just has valid reasoning behind the length of time it takes...It isnt considered the LARGEST sandbox for nothing...last count I remember was something of 1100 different systems to explore...
[mod edit]
Yes, exactly! Thank you!
This completely justifies my point that EVE travel is 2-5 times longer than other MMORPGs where you only need maybe a minute of travel to get to the actual content you want to do.
That's all I'm trying to say: that for 90% of players travel is 2-5 times longer (and for some it's much more) than a typical MMORPG. While you clearly weren't trying to help me make my point, you've brought the perfect estimate into the conversation which proves my point.
Thanks for putting an end to the discussion.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
1. Only a tiny handful of players care about "finding all the travel points". That's not what this is about. This is about how much travel is required to simply play the game.
If EVE's travel time, at it's most positively-spun estimate, is 2-5 times as much as another game, are you actually getting 2-5 times as much content quality out of the game? Perhaps EVE players feel the game provides an experience 2-5 times better than other games.
My experience was EVE's content quality wasn't even worth equal travel time with another game. I fell asleep missioning and ratting almost as much as I did traveling.
2. Nobody's criticizing travel, and I've pointed out multiple times that travel is a reality of EVE because of how it's constructed. The subjective criticism is that spending a much larger chunk of your time in much longer travel isn't a very effective tradeoff: you're not getting 2-5 times as much gameplay for the 2-5 times as much traveling you're doing. Travel is fine. Excessive travel isn't.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Again you missed the point I and several others were making that the travel time can and is most often used for players to organize the rest of the crap they have strewn across the game, chart courses that make for the least amount of jumps to get what they need from another area, and if they have a Market Magnate in the corp where to sell some things for the most bang. FFS I've missed that I was done with traveling quite a few times because I was so busy looking at what I had where and where it needed to go for selling. I once sold a full t2 kitted Enyo as a contract in BFE Amarr space for a substantial amount of profit due to this. Travel in EVE equates to deal making and profiting, especially if one is a builder or miner. I've lost a few million isk because I didn't do my research on where to sell a few hundred thousand m3 of minerals. Travel is what drives the economy, it drives the combat, it drives pvp. I've known pvp'ers to travel 56 jumps just to join in on a fracas that was just starting up, and I'm not talking the major recording Alliance v Alliance conflicts or like I mentioned before the 5H-SM2 fiasco, NC had people jumping from the other side of EVE to join in on the combat to protect the territory. EVE's travel is necessary and is a welcome break from combat to some, and even then most still have an eye out for hard targets.
If anybody from Tactical Narcotics Teams read this what's up fellows.
There's also 2-5 times more stuff to do while traveling in EVE then there is in most games, so it balances out. Trying to treat travel as purely getting from point A to point B in EVE is missing a large portion of the game; travel is not getting your ship blown up, getting your inventory arranged, doing PI, and any number of other things while the ship is moving. You would have a sound point if travel in EVE was much like travel in most modern MMOs, where the worlds are largely pointless, and nothing will ever change about any given route, but the point you seem to be missing is that EVE is very deliberately not that kind of game. Even traveling the same route has the chance of being a different experience each and every time. If the discussion could truly be confined to just travel systems, you would have a much stronger position; unfortunately, any discussion of travel systems must include options of what to do while traveling, and that is where your argument breaks down. Travel in EVE is only boring if you refuse to do anything but stare at the screen rather than the dozen other options you have. Very few games can say that, which is why so people really understand the appeal of slower travel. Games built for instant gratification will naturally require travel systems that support that kind of play while games like EVE actually take the time to make the travel portion itself part of the game.
I don't see where you are getting this travel time is 2 to 5 times longer in Eve than any other mmo. I have to call BS on that. Eve takes less than a minute per jump and I very seldom have to jump more than 2 or 3 times while missioning. Sure it's a million times longer to get to one end of the game to the other, I'll give you that. But then again the game world is an ENTIRE GDAMN GALAXY!
I can't even begin to fathom the endless hours I've spent traversing various landscapes on mounts in you typical mmo's. I'm not even counting static travel paths like WoW has. GW2 is the only game that comes to mind with almost 0 travel time, but even then you can get a long run or two ahead of you. The travel time between quests or quests turn ins or quest hubs or even going to an instance.
Another thing, to go into a game about freakin' SPACESHIPS and not expect to travel is asinine. WTF do spaceships do BUT travel in space? It's kind of their thing.
I don't see where you are getting this travel time is 2 to 5 times longer in Eve than any other mmo. I have to call BS on that. Eve takes less than a minute per jump and I very seldom have to jump more than 2 or 3 times while missioning. Sure it's a million times longer to get to one end of the game to the other, I'll give you that. But then again the game world is an ENTIRE GDAMN GALAXY! I would expect nothing less.
I can't even begin to fathom the endless hours I've spent traversing various landscapes on mounts in your typical mmo's. I'm not even counting static travel paths like WoW has. GW2 is the only game that comes to mind with almost 0 travel time, but even then you can get a long run or two ahead of you. The travel time between quests or quests turn ins or quest hubs or even going to an instance is always a minute or two. What makes that any different than 2-3 minutes jumping from gate to gate? The fact that you are doing it on land? Or on a mount?
Another thing, to go into a game about freakin' SPACESHIPS and not expect to travel is asinine. WTF do spaceships do BUT travel in space? It's kind of their thing.
An EVE player commented that 90% of players spend about 2-5 mins traveling between each activity. In a typical MMORPG it's more like 10-60 seconds between each new thing you do. So 2-5 times longer is about fair.
As for "it's a galaxy!", games aren't measured by world size, they're measured by fun.
Of course I expect some travel. Some travel is fine. Freespace 2 had some travel. In any entertainment medium you need to show some travel to establish the player's location in the world.
What I don't expect is to see all travel. Much like how you probably don't want to watch a year-long real-time-travel version of Lord of the Rings as a movie. You want to skip to the good parts.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver