If they plan on releasing this for the consoles, then they are going to have to limit the buttons. While it is possible to map 24+ actions to a game pad, it's not very workable compared to a keyboard and mouse. Requiring a keyboard and mouse for a console game isn't going to help sell the game, so making the game work with controllers seems to be the way to go. If they plan on releasing on consoles.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
I can't believe people are actually defending a screen full of buttons.
You're no longer playing the game, you're playing the UI.
Agreed and endorsed. With all those buttons I feel like im playing tic-tac-toe, simon says and connect four all at the same time, not to mention its just ugly. Less buttons equals more realistic specialization and more depth in player variation, do you really want to play a game where every healer is that same as the last? Is every doctor the same in real life? Now, im not saying these games should mimic reality but there should be some resemblance and some deviation allowed within the systems. Id like to see something like that in place for crafting too where players could specialize in their respective craft at a certain point in their progression, like maybe a woodworker could specialize in either sea vessels or land based architecture but not both.
That's a very cool keyboard, and after some googling, it seems like the company doesn't exist anymore.
Also, I found that they made keypads that's separate from the keyboard.
Wish I had bought extras, dreading when it dies. Was maybe $50 and besides the obvious game aspect, the normal keys are quiet and easy to press, it's also the size of a regular keyboard since it is missing right side numpad. Seen many $100+ gaming keyboards that are complete trash. Guess these guys should of slapped WoW imagies on it to be popular.
It is still available with another name/company. Look for Zykon K2 keyboard.
I used the old Wolfclaw myself and now the Zykon K2.. it is identical.. just another name.
Thank you! I've been meaning to try a nostromo or g13, but nice to have a backup keyboard.
Back on topic though, I think a lot of the clutter we see in games are fluff spells that can easily be put on "back pages". Some people insist on having everything on screen. That should be their option. But focusing on only few essential abilities really simplifies and takes away from a lot of the fun factor. GW2 for example has a clean UI but has nothing especially fun (shrink, grow, levitate, etc). Number of abilities and buttons can be argued forever when it comes to "skill", but when it comes to fun, more is usually better. I'm a big fan of utility and fun stuff that isn't essential but are great to use once in a while or as needed, but having a core of heavily used abilities.
There should be a couple of core abilities that are always used so combat there are things to do, then there should be many more that are not used as often but still important to use at situations, like disrupts, silence, control, defense, buffs.
....1 post count OP...followed by 5 pages of responses.
Something seems off.
I have to sleep sometime.
This is Everquest Next, so I am assuming that the people here miss the original EQ. I don't know if anyone remembers, but for almost all melees AutoAttack was 99% of your damage + whatever Kick did. Monks had a fancy kick, rogues had a backstab button, and rangers sucked.
In vanilla WoW you had lots of situational abilities but my Fury Warrior in ZG had THREE attacks: Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Heroic Strike. The rest was AutoAttacks. My combat rogue really consisted of Sinister Strike, SS, SS, SS, SS, Slice and Dice followed by the same sequence replaced with Rupture or Evicerate. Frost mages... LOL...1111111111.
Now when I play GW2 I HATE its combat. As many of you illustrated in your posts; there is such a thing as too simple and this game found it. The combat abilities are really just PvP abilities that don't really apply to what I am try to communicate to you readers. You can have situational abilities out the yin yang; those kinds of buttons don't hurt the game at all (Charge, blink, jump, things that respond to the environment and are really for the PvPers). What I am focusing on is the core PvE combat.
Keep it simple yet responsive, leave time for WAITING between abilities or sequences (so I actually have time to look at what I am fighting). Don't be afraid of AutoAttack.
I was just thinking of SWTOR with Colicoid Wargames. I remember being in vent with my friends while we were killing the last boss and I asked: "Wait what are we fighting again?" Thats because the game was about buttons, not enjoying the world.
I seriously liked the way FFXI designed all of it's game.The hot bars were not on screen until you called it up,it kept the screen clean of clutter.Then they made most buffs last at least through a fight,most games have tons of hotbar items because everything is cheap 2-3 second buffs/effects that need repeated button mashing and add ons to handle all of them.EQ2 is no different it is again 3-4 hotbars to handle all the spells by time you hit higher levels.
The ONLY reason you ever needed more than 2 hotbars in FFXI was for gear swaps.If you spnt a bit of time ,you could make a few different setups depending on what variation of your class you are playing,still you would only need to call up the alt/cntrl hotbars.
Instead of tons of buttons, you had tons of macros in XI. It's a bad example though since you could change gear during combat and you essentially had to in order to maximize every aspect.
I could do without 50 buttons or having to write 8 hours worth of macros to accomplish the same thing. I'm more that happy with 2 or 3 full bars of useful abilities set up in a minimalist way on screen. I despise clutter.
I want the person that wins to be the one who times their attacks the best, and reads the enemies telegraphs, not the one who spends the most time keybinding their 70 hotkeys. The notion that removing the 10 hotbars that make up most MMOs today will somehow take some desired complexity out of the game is absurd.
They don't necessarily have to put a limit on the number of hotkeys available, they just need to create a combat system that emphasizes 10 or so abilities with importance placed on skillful timing. GW2 does this decently, but they've got a hard limit.
This has to be my biggest pet peeve that has developed in recent MMOs such as : SWTOR, Rift, and WoW (modern wow). I mean its BUTTON MANIA. Half your screen is dedicated to buttons that really don't do anything.
I would agree.
I just came from lotro and I have three lines of hotbars + a side hot bar + a small potion hotbar.
It's just tiring.
that's why I liked GW1 and what they are doing with TESO.
I'd rather have fewer initial options that then open up additional options as you go along.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
OMG no SOE please to not dumb this game down......................
What you call dumbing down I call making it smarter. To me having access to every single skill your character ever learns is "easy mode", silly, non immersive and unbelievable. Not only that it makes the game extremely hard to balance when you can fire off any skill at any time, instead of having the "deck" building approach that makes games like Magic the Gathering so much fun. That same system can be had in an MMO.
The D&D approach to skills is that your mind can only hold so much information and you need to memorize skills every day is perfectly parlayed into having limited hotbar slots.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
OMG no SOE please to not dumb this game down......................
What you call dumbing down I call making it smarter. To me having access to every single skill your character ever learns is "easy mode", silly, non immersive and unbelievable. Not only that it makes the game extremely hard to balance when you can fire off any skill at any time, instead of having the "deck" building approach that makes games like Magic the Gathering so much fun. That same system can be had in an MMO.
The D&D approach to skills is that your mind can only hold so much information and you need to memorize skills every day is perfectly parlayed into having limited hotbar slots.
GW2 uses the deck approach, and unlike MTG, it is very easy to learn what every other class can do. I grew bored quickly when I knew what someone else was going to do by 1. Class 2. Weapons. Even more bored when I did PVE and mashed the same sequence over and over.
There are very few variations and options to choose from to begin with and once you lock in, you have an even smaller pool to draw from.
MTG is a poor example as we don't randomly have access to different buttons, even if we did know exactly what was available.
While I think WoW has too many options, there has to be a happy medium.
GW2 also has classes that are all self-contained soloers. Hopefully EQN has us rely on each other. Buffs, real healing, utility, and fun/fluff abilities do not have room in a deck/few button type game.
Also, if I can some how remember 50 buttons on my screen, why can't my character? Aren't we one and the same? This is one place I think WoW does it right. You can know everything, but the talent tree allows you to focus on particular abilities (Hoping EQN has something much more complex and customizable). So while a Frost Mage might know Fireball, it is fairly weak compared to Frostbolt and doesn't have any reason to be on your screen to begin with. But if you just want to lob a ball of fire at someone for fun, you can. It might only singe a little hair of my arm, but at least it is an option.
OMG no SOE please to not dumb this game down......................
What you call dumbing down I call making it smarter. To me having access to every single skill your character ever learns is "easy mode", silly, non immersive and unbelievable. Not only that it makes the game extremely hard to balance when you can fire off any skill at any time, instead of having the "deck" building approach that makes games like Magic the Gathering so much fun. That same system can be had in an MMO.
The D&D approach to skills is that your mind can only hold so much information and you need to memorize skills every day is perfectly parlayed into having limited hotbar slots.
GW2 uses the deck approach, and unlike MTG, it is very easy to learn what every other class can do. I grew bored quickly when I knew what someone else was going to do by 1. Class 2. Weapons. Even more bored when I did PVE and mashed the same sequence over and over.
There are very few variations and options to choose from to begin with and once you lock in, you have an even smaller pool to draw from.
MTG is a poor example as we don't randomly have access to different buttons, even if we did know exactly what was available.
While I think WoW has too many options, there has to be a happy medium.
GW2 also has classes that are all self-contained soloers. Hopefully EQN has us rely on each other. Buffs, real healing, utility, and fun/fluff abilities do not have room in a deck/few button type game.
Also, if I can some how remember 50 buttons on my screen, why can't my character? Aren't we one and the same? This is one place I think WoW does it right. You can know everything, but the talent tree allows you to focus on particular abilities (Hoping EQN has something much more complex and customizable). So while a Frost Mage might know Fireball, it is fairly weak compared to Frostbolt and doesn't have any reason to be on your screen to begin with. But if you just want to lob a ball of fire at someone for fun, you can. It might only singe a little hair of my arm, but at least it is an option.
Guild Wars 1 did it better.
IT didn't restrict it to "what weapon you use = what skills you get" instead it let you,t he player, build your deck of skills and decide which ones you wanted to use.
This led to more variety, the same classes felt different from each other because they could be using entirely different skill sets and focusing on entirely different things.
I remember having a couple of classes in EQ2 that had 5-6 toolbars.....It was annoying as heck...Like many others, I want them to return to the days where you could choose 8.....Oh yeah and make the spells alot harder to come by while you're at it.
I got pretty sick of having such limited abilities in GW2 available.
On the flip side, in SWTOR it was extremely annoying having so much crap to keybind it was a delicate act on some classes keybinding everything you needed while still having it reachable. Had to make all these alt+key and ctrl+key etc to keep everything in reach. Was obnoxious as hell remembering what I bound where when cycling through alts.
I support buttons that are meaningful. But if it's just stuff like "This ability can only be used when x other ability crits"...well just go ahead and make the crit do the move for me. Ditto any of the "Keep this dot running at all times so all your other abilities do 8% more damage while it's up" business. Some stuff just seems like it's there because some decision was made about how many buttons people need to press in some dps rotation, rather than because it enhances gameplay.
I got pretty sick of having such limited abilities in GW2 available.
On the flip side, in SWTOR it was extremely annoying having so much crap to keybind it was a delicate act on some classes keybinding everything you needed while still having it reachable. Had to make all these alt+key and ctrl+key etc to keep everything in reach. Was obnoxious as hell remembering what I bound where when cycling through alts.
I support buttons that are meaningful. But if it's just stuff like "This ability can only be used when x other ability crits"...well just go ahead and make the crit do the move for me. Ditto any of the "Keep this dot running at all times so all your other abilities do 8% more damage while it's up" business. Some stuff just seems like it's there because some decision was made about how many buttons people need to press in some dps rotation, rather than because it enhances gameplay.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This, This, This, This, This, This. He perfectly captured what I was trying to say.
Originally posted by sanshi44 i personaly like EQ spell system you had 8 spell slots that you could fill with spell at a time but u could change them out anytime including in combat if u wernt getting hit would take a small amount of time. This way you had 2 choose which spell u think would be best for the senario and if thing changed like pulled to many u can switch to a spell that can save the group.
8 spells is not enough.... atleast not for me, sure it makes the game strategical, but removes much of the tactical part.
But i agree with the OP that screens cluttered with buttons are over and out... How about adding a stance system, where people can change stances and having like 12 buttons/active skills in every stance. they could also add some passives to these stances, just to create their own stances... swapping stance could also involve swapping weapons...
anyway, give people 3 or 4 stances and you give them enough real time tactical decisions to make, while still having that strategical overlayer.
A good game needs to have both indepth strategical as tactical gameplay (personal opinion)
Originally posted by red_cruiser After playing NW and GW2, I don't like MMO's with limited buttons.
there is a big difference between GW2 and NW, because while GW2 has few buttons, you still could have over 30 skills available in some builds, while Neverwinter was totally ruined by giving the players exactly 7 options to choose from.
As you i prefer systems with many real time choices and lots of skills, i found that in GW2, but not in NW.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
This has to be my biggest pet peeve that has developed in recent MMOs such as : SWTOR, Rift, and WoW (modern wow). I mean its BUTTON MANIA. Half your screen is dedicated to buttons that really don't do anything. SWTOR's Sentinel class for example: I only reached 48 but already my sentinel had a 9-11 button priority list w/ an auto attack proc that could proc an ability that if crit procced another ability. Don't even get me started on RIfts button fascination.
Are you FORCED to use ALL buttons? Guess not. Simply hide toolbars and use 1 or 2 if this makes you happy or you are unable to use more because of some problems of yours. Or just buy console and play games there. And LEAVE OTHERS to use TWENTY or FORTY buttons if they like. Is all down to option.
I have left TSW MAINLY because of LACK of buttons. Less buttons spells button mashing. And i hate button mashing with PC games. Would still play console games otherwise.
This has to be my biggest pet peeve that has developed in recent MMOs such as : SWTOR, Rift, and WoW (modern wow). I mean its BUTTON MANIA. Half your screen is dedicated to buttons that really don't do anything. SWTOR's Sentinel class for example: I only reached 48 but already my sentinel had a 9-11 button priority list w/ an auto attack proc that could proc an ability that if crit procced another ability. Don't even get me started on RIfts button fascination.
Are you FORCED to use ALL buttons? Guess not. Simply hide toolbars and use 1 or 2 if this makes you happy or you are unable to use more because of some problems of yours. Or just buy console and play games there. And LEAVE OTHERS to use TWENTY or FORTY buttons if they like. Is all down to option.
I have left TSW MAINLY because of LACK of buttons. Less buttons spells button mashing. And i hate button mashing with PC games. Would still play console games otherwise.
I would urge you to play Super Smash Brothers Melee vs the best players in the world. You'd hardly touch them if all you did was randomly button mash/face roll into the gamecube controller.
And let's be real -- In games with 50 slots on your screen for spells, you're only usually using 5-6 of them. 5-8 of them are "oh eff me im in trouble/ganked/emergency" buttons, and the rest are incredibly situational like you use one of them once a week and by 30 weeks you used all of them once.
More options doesnt always equal better. Because at the end of the day, nearly all MMOs have the cookie cutter most effecient attack/spell cycle to use and you're a liability if you're not doing it. So even with 50 buttons there is the same cycle/cookie cutter-ness as a lot of the MMOS with around 10.
And let's be real -- In games with 50 slots on your screen for spells, you're only usually using 5-6 of them. 5-8 of them are "oh eff me im in trouble/ganked/emergency" buttons, and the rest are incredibly situational like you use one of them once a week and by 30 weeks you used all of them once.
More options doesnt always equal better. Because at the end of the day, nearly all MMOs have the cookie cutter most effecient attack/spell cycle to use and you're a liability if you're not doing it. So even with 50 buttons there is the same cycle/cookie cutter-ness as a lot of the MMOS with around 10.
WEEEELLLLL as a dirge in EQ2 I would use around 25 different abilities during a raid encounter. Depending on the kind of encounter I would use a subset of around 12 clickies (power roots, potions etc) If I died and had to rebuff that could be another 12 abilities depending on the expansion you were talking about. I might also have a special item that I would equip-use-unequip (another 3 buttons). Then I would have another 10-20 buttons for things I used regularly like ports summon mount s(ground for stats, flying mount etc) . During a 3 hour raid/general play session I would use most if not all of the 100 buttons available.
And let's be real -- In games with 50 slots on your screen for spells, you're only usually using 5-6 of them. 5-8 of them are "oh eff me im in trouble/ganked/emergency" buttons, and the rest are incredibly situational like you use one of them once a week and by 30 weeks you used all of them once.
More options doesnt always equal better. Because at the end of the day, nearly all MMOs have the cookie cutter most effecient attack/spell cycle to use and you're a liability if you're not doing it. So even with 50 buttons there is the same cycle/cookie cutter-ness as a lot of the MMOS with around 10.
WEEEELLLLL as a dirge in EQ2 I would use around 25 different abilities during a raid encounter. Depending on the kind of encounter I would use a subset of around 12 clickies (power roots, potions etc) If I died and had to rebuff that could be another 12 abilities depending on the expansion you were talking about. I might also have a special item that I would equip-use-unequip (another 3 buttons). Then I would have another 10-20 buttons for things I used regularly like ports summon mount s(ground for stats, flying mount etc) . During a 3 hour raid/general play session I would use most if not all of the 100 buttons available.
You're seriously counting res/buffs/teleports?
I'm talking about in combat. 99.999% of MMOs in combat are based around using the same 5-10 moves throughout your whole experience with the game. You'd be surprised how many players in MMOs keep useless moves on their bar just because "I have to have EVERY spell/move on the screen!"
You'll see a lot of top streamers in MMORPG games have their hotbars full but of the same moves. They'll have 6 spots in a row all for their macro or for their one move just so they dont miss it/can see the global cooldown refresh on it better when the same move is in 6 spots in a row by itself. So across 50 hotbar spots they'll have the same 5-10 moves
And let's be real -- In games with 50 slots on your screen for spells, you're only usually using 5-6 of them. 5-8 of them are "oh eff me im in trouble/ganked/emergency" buttons, and the rest are incredibly situational like you use one of them once a week and by 30 weeks you used all of them once.
More options doesnt always equal better. Because at the end of the day, nearly all MMOs have the cookie cutter most effecient attack/spell cycle to use and you're a liability if you're not doing it. So even with 50 buttons there is the same cycle/cookie cutter-ness as a lot of the MMOS with around 10.
WEEEELLLLL as a dirge in EQ2 I would use around 25 different abilities during a raid encounter. Depending on the kind of encounter I would use a subset of around 12 clickies (power roots, potions etc) If I died and had to rebuff that could be another 12 abilities depending on the expansion you were talking about. I might also have a special item that I would equip-use-unequip (another 3 buttons). Then I would have another 10-20 buttons for things I used regularly like ports summon mount s(ground for stats, flying mount etc) . During a 3 hour raid/general play session I would use most if not all of the 100 buttons available.
You're seriously counting res/buffs/teleports?
I'm talking about in combat. 99.999% of MMOs in combat are based around using the same 5-10 moves throughout your whole experience with the game. You'd be surprised how many players in MMOs keep useless moves on their bar just because "I have to have EVERY spell/move on the screen!"
You'll see a lot of top streamers in MMORPG games have their hotbars full but of the same moves. They'll have 6 spots in a row all for their macro or for their one move just so they dont miss it/can see the global cooldown refresh on it better when the same move is in 6 spots in a row by itself. So across 50 hotbar spots they'll have the same 5-10 moves
Not Everquest 2 and particularly not a Dirge. Lots of things to do, in addition to combat there are debuffs to keep up on the MOB, you are the player that does in combat resses, there is a heal you sometimes throw on the tank, you probably have a couple of types of heal potion, items to boost your power when you are running low, you need a macros to announce to the group when you need buffs for you Rhythmic Overture, and then another macro to pre-warn the group when you are going to cast Victorious Concerto so they can buff themselves and change their casting order to get the maximum benefit out of it. If the tank dies and gets ressed you need to recast the buffs on them etc. So yes in combat during a raid encounter you will use 30 different buttons as a dirge in EQ2.
Oh and for me at least it was great fun, where as combat in Rift with 2 or 3 button specs I found it boring.
I agree 100% with the OP. One of my biggest pet peeves is the button barf that tends to cover the screen in modern MMORPGs. For the record:
*** LOTS OF BUTTONS != DEPTH ***
I'm not even asking for a small number. But in EQ2, for example, I have something like 4 full hotbars of abilities. WoW is similar. In contrast, GW2 is a massive breath of fresh air. Only 12-15 buttons, but the myriad of setups and ways that the abilities can be combined give it just as much if not more depth that the two previouly mentioned systems.
Comments
If they plan on releasing this for the consoles, then they are going to have to limit the buttons. While it is possible to map 24+ actions to a game pad, it's not very workable compared to a keyboard and mouse. Requiring a keyboard and mouse for a console game isn't going to help sell the game, so making the game work with controllers seems to be the way to go. If they plan on releasing on consoles.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Agreed and endorsed. With all those buttons I feel like im playing tic-tac-toe, simon says and connect four all at the same time, not to mention its just ugly. Less buttons equals more realistic specialization and more depth in player variation, do you really want to play a game where every healer is that same as the last? Is every doctor the same in real life? Now, im not saying these games should mimic reality but there should be some resemblance and some deviation allowed within the systems. Id like to see something like that in place for crafting too where players could specialize in their respective craft at a certain point in their progression, like maybe a woodworker could specialize in either sea vessels or land based architecture but not both.
2 cents
It is still available with another name/company. Look for Zykon K2 keyboard.
I used the old Wolfclaw myself and now the Zykon K2.. it is identical.. just another name.
Thank you! I've been meaning to try a nostromo or g13, but nice to have a backup keyboard.
Back on topic though, I think a lot of the clutter we see in games are fluff spells that can easily be put on "back pages". Some people insist on having everything on screen. That should be their option. But focusing on only few essential abilities really simplifies and takes away from a lot of the fun factor. GW2 for example has a clean UI but has nothing especially fun (shrink, grow, levitate, etc). Number of abilities and buttons can be argued forever when it comes to "skill", but when it comes to fun, more is usually better. I'm a big fan of utility and fun stuff that isn't essential but are great to use once in a while or as needed, but having a core of heavily used abilities.
Too few buttons makes for boring combat.
There should be a couple of core abilities that are always used so combat there are things to do, then there should be many more that are not used as often but still important to use at situations, like disrupts, silence, control, defense, buffs.
I have to sleep sometime.
This is Everquest Next, so I am assuming that the people here miss the original EQ. I don't know if anyone remembers, but for almost all melees AutoAttack was 99% of your damage + whatever Kick did. Monks had a fancy kick, rogues had a backstab button, and rangers sucked.
In vanilla WoW you had lots of situational abilities but my Fury Warrior in ZG had THREE attacks: Bloodthirst, Whirlwind, Heroic Strike. The rest was AutoAttacks. My combat rogue really consisted of Sinister Strike, SS, SS, SS, SS, Slice and Dice followed by the same sequence replaced with Rupture or Evicerate. Frost mages... LOL...1111111111.
Now when I play GW2 I HATE its combat. As many of you illustrated in your posts; there is such a thing as too simple and this game found it. The combat abilities are really just PvP abilities that don't really apply to what I am try to communicate to you readers. You can have situational abilities out the yin yang; those kinds of buttons don't hurt the game at all (Charge, blink, jump, things that respond to the environment and are really for the PvPers). What I am focusing on is the core PvE combat.
Keep it simple yet responsive, leave time for WAITING between abilities or sequences (so I actually have time to look at what I am fighting). Don't be afraid of AutoAttack.
I was just thinking of SWTOR with Colicoid Wargames. I remember being in vent with my friends while we were killing the last boss and I asked: "Wait what are we fighting again?" Thats because the game was about buttons, not enjoying the world.
Instead of tons of buttons, you had tons of macros in XI. It's a bad example though since you could change gear during combat and you essentially had to in order to maximize every aspect.
This is just for Paladin.
http://pastebin.com/bpSUyAnk
I could do without 50 buttons or having to write 8 hours worth of macros to accomplish the same thing. I'm more that happy with 2 or 3 full bars of useful abilities set up in a minimalist way on screen. I despise clutter.
Being a fan of the original EQ, I vote for limited number of skills that can be 'memorized' and usable at any given time.
Requiring the use of macros to be effective is bad game design.
Can't get my pen to write in this space.
I want the person that wins to be the one who times their attacks the best, and reads the enemies telegraphs, not the one who spends the most time keybinding their 70 hotkeys. The notion that removing the 10 hotbars that make up most MMOs today will somehow take some desired complexity out of the game is absurd.
They don't necessarily have to put a limit on the number of hotkeys available, they just need to create a combat system that emphasizes 10 or so abilities with importance placed on skillful timing. GW2 does this decently, but they've got a hard limit.
I would agree.
I just came from lotro and I have three lines of hotbars + a side hot bar + a small potion hotbar.
It's just tiring.
that's why I liked GW1 and what they are doing with TESO.
I'd rather have fewer initial options that then open up additional options as you go along.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
What you call dumbing down I call making it smarter. To me having access to every single skill your character ever learns is "easy mode", silly, non immersive and unbelievable. Not only that it makes the game extremely hard to balance when you can fire off any skill at any time, instead of having the "deck" building approach that makes games like Magic the Gathering so much fun. That same system can be had in an MMO.
The D&D approach to skills is that your mind can only hold so much information and you need to memorize skills every day is perfectly parlayed into having limited hotbar slots.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
GW2 uses the deck approach, and unlike MTG, it is very easy to learn what every other class can do. I grew bored quickly when I knew what someone else was going to do by 1. Class 2. Weapons. Even more bored when I did PVE and mashed the same sequence over and over.
There are very few variations and options to choose from to begin with and once you lock in, you have an even smaller pool to draw from.
MTG is a poor example as we don't randomly have access to different buttons, even if we did know exactly what was available.
While I think WoW has too many options, there has to be a happy medium.
GW2 also has classes that are all self-contained soloers. Hopefully EQN has us rely on each other. Buffs, real healing, utility, and fun/fluff abilities do not have room in a deck/few button type game.
Also, if I can some how remember 50 buttons on my screen, why can't my character? Aren't we one and the same? This is one place I think WoW does it right. You can know everything, but the talent tree allows you to focus on particular abilities (Hoping EQN has something much more complex and customizable). So while a Frost Mage might know Fireball, it is fairly weak compared to Frostbolt and doesn't have any reason to be on your screen to begin with. But if you just want to lob a ball of fire at someone for fun, you can. It might only singe a little hair of my arm, but at least it is an option.
Guild Wars 1 did it better.
IT didn't restrict it to "what weapon you use = what skills you get" instead it let you,t he player, build your deck of skills and decide which ones you wanted to use.
This led to more variety, the same classes felt different from each other because they could be using entirely different skill sets and focusing on entirely different things.
Decks belong on boats and ships or as in a deck of cards. Perhaps even a Pokemon game or even "Legends of Norath"
Just silly in a MMORGP IMHO.
There's a happy medium to be achieved I think.
I got pretty sick of having such limited abilities in GW2 available.
On the flip side, in SWTOR it was extremely annoying having so much crap to keybind it was a delicate act on some classes keybinding everything you needed while still having it reachable. Had to make all these alt+key and ctrl+key etc to keep everything in reach. Was obnoxious as hell remembering what I bound where when cycling through alts.
I support buttons that are meaningful. But if it's just stuff like "This ability can only be used when x other ability crits"...well just go ahead and make the crit do the move for me. Ditto any of the "Keep this dot running at all times so all your other abilities do 8% more damage while it's up" business. Some stuff just seems like it's there because some decision was made about how many buttons people need to press in some dps rotation, rather than because it enhances gameplay.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This, This, This, This, This, This. He perfectly captured what I was trying to say.
8 spells is not enough.... atleast not for me, sure it makes the game strategical, but removes much of the tactical part.
But i agree with the OP that screens cluttered with buttons are over and out... How about adding a stance system, where people can change stances and having like 12 buttons/active skills in every stance. they could also add some passives to these stances, just to create their own stances... swapping stance could also involve swapping weapons...
anyway, give people 3 or 4 stances and you give them enough real time tactical decisions to make, while still having that strategical overlayer.
A good game needs to have both indepth strategical as tactical gameplay (personal opinion)
there is a big difference between GW2 and NW, because while GW2 has few buttons, you still could have over 30 skills available in some builds, while Neverwinter was totally ruined by giving the players exactly 7 options to choose from.
As you i prefer systems with many real time choices and lots of skills, i found that in GW2, but not in NW.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Are you FORCED to use ALL buttons? Guess not. Simply hide toolbars and use 1 or 2 if this makes you happy or you are unable to use more because of some problems of yours. Or just buy console and play games there. And LEAVE OTHERS to use TWENTY or FORTY buttons if they like. Is all down to option.
I have left TSW MAINLY because of LACK of buttons. Less buttons spells button mashing. And i hate button mashing with PC games. Would still play console games otherwise.
I would urge you to play Super Smash Brothers Melee vs the best players in the world. You'd hardly touch them if all you did was randomly button mash/face roll into the gamecube controller.
And let's be real -- In games with 50 slots on your screen for spells, you're only usually using 5-6 of them. 5-8 of them are "oh eff me im in trouble/ganked/emergency" buttons, and the rest are incredibly situational like you use one of them once a week and by 30 weeks you used all of them once.
More options doesnt always equal better. Because at the end of the day, nearly all MMOs have the cookie cutter most effecient attack/spell cycle to use and you're a liability if you're not doing it. So even with 50 buttons there is the same cycle/cookie cutter-ness as a lot of the MMOS with around 10.
WEEEELLLLL as a dirge in EQ2 I would use around 25 different abilities during a raid encounter. Depending on the kind of encounter I would use a subset of around 12 clickies (power roots, potions etc) If I died and had to rebuff that could be another 12 abilities depending on the expansion you were talking about. I might also have a special item that I would equip-use-unequip (another 3 buttons). Then I would have another 10-20 buttons for things I used regularly like ports summon mount s(ground for stats, flying mount etc) . During a 3 hour raid/general play session I would use most if not all of the 100 buttons available.
You're seriously counting res/buffs/teleports?
I'm talking about in combat. 99.999% of MMOs in combat are based around using the same 5-10 moves throughout your whole experience with the game. You'd be surprised how many players in MMOs keep useless moves on their bar just because "I have to have EVERY spell/move on the screen!"
You'll see a lot of top streamers in MMORPG games have their hotbars full but of the same moves. They'll have 6 spots in a row all for their macro or for their one move just so they dont miss it/can see the global cooldown refresh on it better when the same move is in 6 spots in a row by itself. So across 50 hotbar spots they'll have the same 5-10 moves
Not Everquest 2 and particularly not a Dirge. Lots of things to do, in addition to combat there are debuffs to keep up on the MOB, you are the player that does in combat resses, there is a heal you sometimes throw on the tank, you probably have a couple of types of heal potion, items to boost your power when you are running low, you need a macros to announce to the group when you need buffs for you Rhythmic Overture, and then another macro to pre-warn the group when you are going to cast Victorious Concerto so they can buff themselves and change their casting order to get the maximum benefit out of it. If the tank dies and gets ressed you need to recast the buffs on them etc. So yes in combat during a raid encounter you will use 30 different buttons as a dirge in EQ2.
Oh and for me at least it was great fun, where as combat in Rift with 2 or 3 button specs I found it boring.
I agree 100% with the OP. One of my biggest pet peeves is the button barf that tends to cover the screen in modern MMORPGs. For the record:
*** LOTS OF BUTTONS != DEPTH ***
I'm not even asking for a small number. But in EQ2, for example, I have something like 4 full hotbars of abilities. WoW is similar. In contrast, GW2 is a massive breath of fresh air. Only 12-15 buttons, but the myriad of setups and ways that the abilities can be combined give it just as much if not more depth that the two previouly mentioned systems.