I agree 100% with the OP. One of my biggest pet peeves is the button barf that tends to cover the screen in modern MMORPGs. For the record:
*** LOTS OF BUTTONS != DEPTH ***
I'm not even asking for a small number. But in EQ2, for example, I have something like 4 full hotbars of abilities. WoW is similar. In contrast, GW2 is a massive breath of fresh air. Only 12-15 buttons, but the myriad of setups and ways that the abilities can be combined give it just as much if not more depth that the two previouly mentioned systems.
Well you can always turn off the button bars you do not use right?
As to EQ2, I think you are underestimating the depth of play available when you use your abilities in synergy with other players in the group/raid. Having more buttons available than you are using is good, having not enough buttons for the things you want to do is bad.
How many buttons will I be using in EQ Next? I have no idea but I would much rather have 250 buttons available and use 20, then have 20 buttons available and want to use even 21.
This has to be my biggest pet peeve that has developed in recent MMOs such as : SWTOR, Rift, and WoW (modern wow). I mean its BUTTON MANIA. Half your screen is dedicated to buttons that really don't do anything. SWTOR's Sentinel class for example: I only reached 48 but already my sentinel had a 9-11 button priority list w/ an auto attack proc that could proc an ability that if crit procced another ability. Don't even get me started on RIfts button fascination.
Are you FORCED to use ALL buttons? Guess not. Simply hide toolbars and use 1 or 2 if this makes you happy or you are unable to use more because of some problems of yours. Or just buy console and play games there. And LEAVE OTHERS to use TWENTY or FORTY buttons if they like. Is all down to option.
I have left TSW MAINLY because of LACK of buttons. Less buttons spells button mashing. And i hate button mashing with PC games. Would still play console games otherwise.
I would urge you to play Super Smash Brothers Melee vs the best players in the world. You'd hardly touch them if all you did was randomly button mash/face roll into the gamecube controller.
And let's be real -- In games with 50 slots on your screen for spells, you're only usually using 5-6 of them. 5-8 of them are "oh eff me im in trouble/ganked/emergency" buttons, and the rest are incredibly situational like you use one of them once a week and by 30 weeks you used all of them once.
More options doesnt always equal better. Because at the end of the day, nearly all MMOs have the cookie cutter most effecient attack/spell cycle to use and you're a liability if you're not doing it. So even with 50 buttons there is the same cycle/cookie cutter-ness as a lot of the MMOS with around 10.
Obviously you have not played a lot of good games if you are happy with 5-6 of them.
About more does not always equal better I agree. So why you bother if I can use this option while YOU do not have to? Are you forced? Nope. Am I forced to mash buttons if only 5 buttosn? Yes, I'm.
With few rare classes usually in normal and FUN and not button mashing game ... guess at least 2 toolbars are mondatory.
And again ....we are speaking about OPTIONS. If there is OPTION then I can use it while YOU are not forced to use. So ... where is problem?
I got pretty sick of having such limited abilities in GW2 available.
On the flip side, in SWTOR it was extremely annoying having so much crap to keybind it was a delicate act on some classes keybinding everything you needed while still having it reachable. Had to make all these alt+key and ctrl+key etc to keep everything in reach. Was obnoxious as hell remembering what I bound where when cycling through alts.
I support buttons that are meaningful. But if it's just stuff like "This ability can only be used when x other ability crits"...well just go ahead and make the crit do the move for me. Ditto any of the "Keep this dot running at all times so all your other abilities do 8% more damage while it's up" business. Some stuff just seems like it's there because some decision was made about how many buttons people need to press in some dps rotation, rather than because it enhances gameplay.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This, This, This, This, This, This. He perfectly captured what I was trying to say.
Not "This, This, This, This, This, This"
The example of GW2 defeats the argument. Limited? How? You get to do whatever you want. Only 5 main weapon set abilities plus the other five for traits/skills? Asinine argument. Then you get from 3-4 F keys. I don't get it. What's too much or too little then? The argument is to limit buttons....yet GW2 has at least 13. So...is this too "minimum"?
Once again...thought instead of enjoyment causes a thread to emerge. I enjoyed WoW in it's day. Never "thought" about anything but playing. I played LotRO and enjoyed it. Never a "thought" other than "where should I go next?". Now in GW2...same. Never will understand you people that would rather "think" than play and enjoy.
What's wrong with the MMO market? Too many players "think" they need the game they are supposed to be enjoying needs to be "thought over" and posted about.
Yeah there is a fine line between button mashing and too many buttons..but that's also why alot of games have macros to use..so you can couple skills so if you want to be lazy you're more than welcome to do so..if you don't mind shaving some dps off your numbers most of the time. I played a kitty in wow awhile back and remember during the early expansions it was fun seeing if I could keep up my bleeds during raiding without anything macro'ed..just depends on the player and how much they are willing to bind/macro up.
Originally posted by STAUDERWALKIE Yeah there is a fine line between button mashing and too many buttons..but that's also why alot of games have macros to use..so you can couple skills so if you want to be lazy you're more than welcome to do so..if you don't mind shaving some dps off your numbers most of the time. I played a kitty in wow awhile back and remember during the early expansions it was fun seeing if I could keep up my bleeds during raiding without anything macro'ed..just depends on the player and how much they are willing to bind/macro up.
Not to be harsh....but macros are what I was on about before. Why the HELL should I need a macro? Binding keys is one thing...but people actually think it's fun to macro? Or cause they have to? Which leads to the question of why they are playing said game.
I got pretty sick of having such limited abilities in GW2 available.
On the flip side, in SWTOR it was extremely annoying having so much crap to keybind it was a delicate act on some classes keybinding everything you needed while still having it reachable. Had to make all these alt+key and ctrl+key etc to keep everything in reach. Was obnoxious as hell remembering what I bound where when cycling through alts.
I support buttons that are meaningful. But if it's just stuff like "This ability can only be used when x other ability crits"...well just go ahead and make the crit do the move for me. Ditto any of the "Keep this dot running at all times so all your other abilities do 8% more damage while it's up" business. Some stuff just seems like it's there because some decision was made about how many buttons people need to press in some dps rotation, rather than because it enhances gameplay.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This, This, This, This, This, This. He perfectly captured what I was trying to say.
Not "This, This, This, This, This, This"
The example of GW2 defeats the argument. Limited? How? You get to do whatever you want. Only 5 main weapon set abilities plus the other five for traits/skills? Asinine argument. Then you get from 3-4 F keys. I don't get it. What's too much or too little then? The argument is to limit buttons....yet GW2 has at least 13. So...is this too "minimum"?
Once again...thought instead of enjoyment causes a thread to emerge. I enjoyed WoW in it's day. Never "thought" about anything but playing. I played LotRO and enjoyed it. Never a "thought" other than "where should I go next?". Now in GW2...same. Never will understand you people that would rather "think" than play and enjoy.
What's wrong with the MMO market? Too many players "think" they need the game they are supposed to be enjoying needs to be "thought over" and posted about.
News flash...they are games. For enjoyment.
People want to play video games to think for the same reason that people want to play chess or sudoku to think.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
I got pretty sick of having such limited abilities in GW2 available.
On the flip side, in SWTOR it was extremely annoying having so much crap to keybind it was a delicate act on some classes keybinding everything you needed while still having it reachable. Had to make all these alt+key and ctrl+key etc to keep everything in reach. Was obnoxious as hell remembering what I bound where when cycling through alts.
I support buttons that are meaningful. But if it's just stuff like "This ability can only be used when x other ability crits"...well just go ahead and make the crit do the move for me. Ditto any of the "Keep this dot running at all times so all your other abilities do 8% more damage while it's up" business. Some stuff just seems like it's there because some decision was made about how many buttons people need to press in some dps rotation, rather than because it enhances gameplay.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This, This, This, This, This, This. He perfectly captured what I was trying to say.
Not "This, This, This, This, This, This"
The example of GW2 defeats the argument. Limited? How? You get to do whatever you want. Only 5 main weapon set abilities plus the other five for traits/skills? Asinine argument. Then you get from 3-4 F keys. I don't get it. What's too much or too little then? The argument is to limit buttons....yet GW2 has at least 13. So...is this too "minimum"?
Once again...thought instead of enjoyment causes a thread to emerge. I enjoyed WoW in it's day. Never "thought" about anything but playing. I played LotRO and enjoyed it. Never a "thought" other than "where should I go next?". Now in GW2...same. Never will understand you people that would rather "think" than play and enjoy.
What's wrong with the MMO market? Too many players "think" they need the game they are supposed to be enjoying needs to be "thought over" and posted about.
News flash...they are games. For enjoyment.
People want to play video games to think for the same reason that people want to play chess or sudoku to think.
Which has nothing to do with video games....does it? MMOs are for taking on roles and immersing yourself in another world. You do that in chess? Sudoku?
OMG no SOE please to not dumb this game down......................
Back in classic EQ1, you could have only 8 spells prepared at any given time. I never felt like this dumbed things down~In fact, you had to be very tactical in your spell selection which could be quite challenging for certain classes (such as Enchanter). Having to chose which tools you are going to have available for a given combat creates another level of complexity.
I agree 100% with the OP. One of my biggest pet peeves is the button barf that tends to cover the screen in modern MMORPGs. For the record:
*** LOTS OF BUTTONS != DEPTH ***
I'm not even asking for a small number. But in EQ2, for example, I have something like 4 full hotbars of abilities. WoW is similar. In contrast, GW2 is a massive breath of fresh air. Only 12-15 buttons, but the myriad of setups and ways that the abilities can be combined give it just as much if not more depth that the two previouly mentioned systems.
Well you can always turn off the button bars you do not use right?
As to EQ2, I think you are underestimating the depth of play available when you use your abilities in synergy with other players in the group/raid. Having more buttons available than you are using is good, having not enough buttons for the things you want to do is bad.
How many buttons will I be using in EQ Next? I have no idea but I would much rather have 250 buttons available and use 20, then have 20 buttons available and want to use even 21.
What if them focusing on 230 useless abilities lowered the overall quality of the game?
You're assuming there is the same amount of time spent on having 250 spells compared to 50. If you make 250 AWESOME spells? Then thats great. If the value of your game is lowering because you spent countless hours on 230 useless spells, then your whole game might suffer.
This has to be my biggest pet peeve that has developed in recent MMOs such as : SWTOR, Rift, and WoW (modern wow). I mean its BUTTON MANIA. Half your screen is dedicated to buttons that really don't do anything. SWTOR's Sentinel class for example: I only reached 48 but already my sentinel had a 9-11 button priority list w/ an auto attack proc that could proc an ability that if crit procced another ability. Don't even get me started on RIfts button fascination.
Are you FORCED to use ALL buttons? Guess not. Simply hide toolbars and use 1 or 2 if this makes you happy or you are unable to use more because of some problems of yours. Or just buy console and play games there. And LEAVE OTHERS to use TWENTY or FORTY buttons if they like. Is all down to option.
I have left TSW MAINLY because of LACK of buttons. Less buttons spells button mashing. And i hate button mashing with PC games. Would still play console games otherwise.
I would urge you to play Super Smash Brothers Melee vs the best players in the world. You'd hardly touch them if all you did was randomly button mash/face roll into the gamecube controller.
And let's be real -- In games with 50 slots on your screen for spells, you're only usually using 5-6 of them. 5-8 of them are "oh eff me im in trouble/ganked/emergency" buttons, and the rest are incredibly situational like you use one of them once a week and by 30 weeks you used all of them once.
More options doesnt always equal better. Because at the end of the day, nearly all MMOs have the cookie cutter most effecient attack/spell cycle to use and you're a liability if you're not doing it. So even with 50 buttons there is the same cycle/cookie cutter-ness as a lot of the MMOS with around 10.
I completely disagree with you on fast travel - but you're right on the money on this lol.
All of these traditional combat systems with 50+ skills and 8 hotbars always end up being a very particular rotation consisting of around 10 or so skills. When I played games like WoW, I literally feel like im playing whack-a-mole or Simon Says the way I'm always going through the EXACT same rotation. It makes much more sense to have a wide array of useful skills to deck-build with but only have a few active on the screen at a time.
And why do people seriously like these UI's? How can you possibly be immersed in the game with a HUD taking up literally 50% of the screen?
Originally posted by STYNKFYST Originally posted by stayBlindThere needs to be at least 500+ skills for each class. Anything less is for people who need to learn to play.
lol...wow. Really?
I'm just hoping this is a joke or at the very lamest...a troll.
Poe's law is an internet adage that basically says really good satire or parody is nearly indistinguishable from a sincere extremist statement.
I'm guessing that this is satire.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
All these people crying about "a screen full of buttons" are clearly just too damn stupid to keybind the ability and then hide the bar.
Sorry you like to click and stuff I guess. Id rather not play with you.
QFT.
Back when playing WoW I minimized my huge amount of skills to just 3 very small bars, all hotkey'd. Very minimal, allowed for the most of my screen to be devoted to the game.
Seeing other people with the classic bars piled all over the screen and clicking said buttons is absolutely vomit inducing. ugh. I mean the buttons the UI itself used atleast 25% of the screen real estate.
Originally posted by Selirii_Deuvlerii Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by STYNKFYSTOriginally posted by stayBlindThere needs to be at least 500+ skills for each class. Anything less is for people who need to learn to play.
lol...wow. Really?I'm just hoping this is a joke or at the very lamest...a troll.Poe's law is an internet adage that basically says really good satire or parody is nearly indistinguishable from a sincere extremist statement. I'm guessing that this is satire. uhm, except you worry for STNKYFYST's IQ for even having asked about stayBlind's post... ;|
Actually, I read about Poe's law a few weeks ago, and had been waiting since then to be able to put it in a post. This seems like a really good example.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
All these people crying about "a screen full of buttons" are clearly just too damn stupid to keybind the ability and then hide the bar.
Sorry you like to click and stuff I guess. Id rather not play with you.
You know why Everquest was named Evercrack? Because everyone that played it was so STUPID they didn't even know that autoattacking for 90% of your damage wasn't fun. Am I right?
I also liked EQ's original system, 6 actions that could be changed out with a spell list that you had to memorize. I don't really like all the darn buttons in swtor, you have to have like 4 bars of 10 to have everything up.
TSW system is also useful. I like 4 active and 4 passive abilities at any time. Want to change group dynamics mid dungeon run? No problem.
Seeing as how they have all but put it on a bold headline on SoE's website that EQN will be on ps4, you can safely bet that it will use a controller friendly, not to many darn button, interface.
On the one hand I don't think you need as many buttons as some MMO's seem to think.
On the other hand if you reduce the number too much you get a UI that can be ported to consoles and so we begin down the slippery slope to "MMO's" developed on console and getting crap ports to PC. Dumbed down multiplayer dungeon runners and not true MMO's. My worst nightmare.
Well you can always turn off the button bars you do not use right?
As to EQ2, I think you are underestimating the depth of play available when you use your abilities in synergy with other players in the group/raid. Having more buttons available than you are using is good, having not enough buttons for the things you want to do is bad.
How many buttons will I be using in EQ Next? I have no idea but I would much rather have 250 buttons available and use 20, then have 20 buttons available and want to use even 21.
What if them focusing on 230 useless abilities lowered the overall quality of the game?
You're assuming there is the same amount of time spent on having 250 spells compared to 50. If you make 250 AWESOME spells? Then thats great. If the value of your game is lowering because you spent countless hours on 230 useless spells, then your whole game might suffer.
Khm, how you got suddenly to 50 spells?? We were arguing about 5 or 6 spells and something like this at max more .... now you switched to 50? 50 is fine even for me that I'm happy only with games with at least 2 to 3 toolbars.
If you have to purchase a special mouse to play your character with the highest possible level of efficiency, your game probably has too many buttons. That being said, games like Neverwinter are far too limiting in how many active abilities you can have. Surely a game can settle somewhere in between?
Every single mmo that has limited "deck" selections, no matter how good the game, has forced me to quit it.
Limited skill/slot options is a game killer for me. Seeing how the word "console" keeps creeping into mmos these days I feel greatly that EQnext will indeed also limit buttons. Damn I hope not.
What your saying you don't want 4-5 action bars with 12 buttons each. Which require you do hit all 48-60 of them in one specific order to max DPS. While at the same time dodging boss, add, and dynamic room mechanics.
Where is your sense of adventure
BTW if they allow you to hide all the buttons after you memorize them all... you do not have to use the screen real estate. Assuming of course your not a clicker.
Comments
Well you can always turn off the button bars you do not use right?
As to EQ2, I think you are underestimating the depth of play available when you use your abilities in synergy with other players in the group/raid. Having more buttons available than you are using is good, having not enough buttons for the things you want to do is bad.
How many buttons will I be using in EQ Next? I have no idea but I would much rather have 250 buttons available and use 20, then have 20 buttons available and want to use even 21.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Obviously you have not played a lot of good games if you are happy with 5-6 of them.
About more does not always equal better I agree. So why you bother if I can use this option while YOU do not have to? Are you forced? Nope. Am I forced to mash buttons if only 5 buttosn? Yes, I'm.
With few rare classes usually in normal and FUN and not button mashing game ... guess at least 2 toolbars are mondatory.
And again ....we are speaking about OPTIONS. If there is OPTION then I can use it while YOU are not forced to use. So ... where is problem?
Not "This, This, This, This, This, This"
The example of GW2 defeats the argument. Limited? How? You get to do whatever you want. Only 5 main weapon set abilities plus the other five for traits/skills? Asinine argument. Then you get from 3-4 F keys. I don't get it. What's too much or too little then? The argument is to limit buttons....yet GW2 has at least 13. So...is this too "minimum"?
Once again...thought instead of enjoyment causes a thread to emerge. I enjoyed WoW in it's day. Never "thought" about anything but playing. I played LotRO and enjoyed it. Never a "thought" other than "where should I go next?". Now in GW2...same. Never will understand you people that would rather "think" than play and enjoy.
What's wrong with the MMO market? Too many players "think" they need the game they are supposed to be enjoying needs to be "thought over" and posted about.
News flash...they are games. For enjoyment.
Not to be harsh....but macros are what I was on about before. Why the HELL should I need a macro? Binding keys is one thing...but people actually think it's fun to macro? Or cause they have to? Which leads to the question of why they are playing said game.
It's not a job to me...I need no macros
People want to play video games to think for the same reason that people want to play chess or sudoku to think.
Little forum boys with their polished cyber toys: whine whine, boo-hoo, talk talk.
Which has nothing to do with video games....does it? MMOs are for taking on roles and immersing yourself in another world. You do that in chess? Sudoku?
Bad analogy
Back in classic EQ1, you could have only 8 spells prepared at any given time. I never felt like this dumbed things down~In fact, you had to be very tactical in your spell selection which could be quite challenging for certain classes (such as Enchanter). Having to chose which tools you are going to have available for a given combat creates another level of complexity.
What if them focusing on 230 useless abilities lowered the overall quality of the game?
You're assuming there is the same amount of time spent on having 250 spells compared to 50. If you make 250 AWESOME spells? Then thats great. If the value of your game is lowering because you spent countless hours on 230 useless spells, then your whole game might suffer.
lol...wow. Really?
I'm just hoping this is a joke or at the very lamest...a troll.
I completely disagree with you on fast travel - but you're right on the money on this lol.
All of these traditional combat systems with 50+ skills and 8 hotbars always end up being a very particular rotation consisting of around 10 or so skills. When I played games like WoW, I literally feel like im playing whack-a-mole or Simon Says the way I'm always going through the EXACT same rotation. It makes much more sense to have a wide array of useful skills to deck-build with but only have a few active on the screen at a time.
And why do people seriously like these UI's? How can you possibly be immersed in the game with a HUD taking up literally 50% of the screen?
I'm just hoping this is a joke or at the very lamest...a troll.
Poe's law is an internet adage that basically says really good satire or parody is nearly indistinguishable from a sincere extremist statement.
I'm guessing that this is satire.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
All these people crying about "a screen full of buttons" are clearly just too damn stupid to keybind the ability and then hide the bar.
Sorry you like to click and stuff I guess. Id rather not play with you.
QFT.
Back when playing WoW I minimized my huge amount of skills to just 3 very small bars, all hotkey'd. Very minimal, allowed for the most of my screen to be devoted to the game.
Seeing other people with the classic bars piled all over the screen and clicking said buttons is absolutely vomit inducing. ugh. I mean the buttons the UI itself used atleast 25% of the screen real estate.
Poe's law is an internet adage that basically says really good satire or parody is nearly indistinguishable from a sincere extremist statement. I'm guessing that this is satire.
uhm, except you worry for STNKYFYST's IQ for even having asked about stayBlind's post... ;|
Actually, I read about Poe's law a few weeks ago, and had been waiting since then to be able to put it in a post. This seems like a really good example.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You know why Everquest was named Evercrack? Because everyone that played it was so STUPID they didn't even know that autoattacking for 90% of your damage wasn't fun. Am I right?
I also liked EQ's original system, 6 actions that could be changed out with a spell list that you had to memorize. I don't really like all the darn buttons in swtor, you have to have like 4 bars of 10 to have everything up.
TSW system is also useful. I like 4 active and 4 passive abilities at any time. Want to change group dynamics mid dungeon run? No problem.
Seeing as how they have all but put it on a bold headline on SoE's website that EQN will be on ps4, you can safely bet that it will use a controller friendly, not to many darn button, interface.
The only reason to limit buttons, would be to cater to consoles.
*ducks flying mouse with 15 buttons on it*
On the one hand I don't think you need as many buttons as some MMO's seem to think.
On the other hand if you reduce the number too much you get a UI that can be ported to consoles and so we begin down the slippery slope to "MMO's" developed on console and getting crap ports to PC. Dumbed down multiplayer dungeon runners and not true MMO's. My worst nightmare.
Khm, how you got suddenly to 50 spells?? We were arguing about 5 or 6 spells and something like this at max more .... now you switched to 50? 50 is fine even for me that I'm happy only with games with at least 2 to 3 toolbars.
If you have to purchase a special mouse to play your character with the highest possible level of efficiency, your game probably has too many buttons. That being said, games like Neverwinter are far too limiting in how many active abilities you can have. Surely a game can settle somewhere in between?
Every single mmo that has limited "deck" selections, no matter how good the game, has forced me to quit it.
Limited skill/slot options is a game killer for me. Seeing how the word "console" keeps creeping into mmos these days I feel greatly that EQnext will indeed also limit buttons. Damn I hope not.
You stay sassy!
What your saying you don't want 4-5 action bars with 12 buttons each. Which require you do hit all 48-60 of them in one specific order to max DPS. While at the same time dodging boss, add, and dynamic room mechanics.
Where is your sense of adventure
BTW if they allow you to hide all the buttons after you memorize them all... you do not have to use the screen real estate. Assuming of course your not a clicker.