Ok so in this game the trinity system is there and it isn't. Basically meaning that with all the class variations you can kind of heal yourself or other depending on what you want your loadout to be based on your classes. You can switch to your heal anti-caster loadout if needed in the group or a tank loadout if the group needs it, so basically there is and isn't based on the people in the group and what kind of classes and loadouts they have. Realllllly cool concept.
"WoW raiding in Vanila and TBC took it to a whole new level."
You mean the level right under Everquest 1? You think these guys dont understand raiding and scripted boss encounters? These guys laid the bloody groundwork that WoW thread on. WoW doesnt even compare to EQ1 raids.
Juts blows my mind how the WoW-kid generation think they know EVERYTHING and WoW defined and created EVERYTHING. Ignorance is bliss I guess.
I also seem to remember some exclusive one time server events that took place that were huge deals in eq1. Really EQ1 laid the the foundation for many games, even gw2 with their world events. More I think about it, the more I realize EQ1 was really what started it all.
Originally posted by Tiller I don't know why people try so hard to hang one to classic trinity. I as well as many others have been able to adjust and cope just fine in gw2. No gw2 is not a game you can play with one hand on a hot pocket and one spamming heals and buffs for a group in the background while they attack, or just auto attacking while dps lays down damage from afar never fearing death as long as they stay back . You have to run around, heal yourself, dodge ect. Not just stand in one spot and shoot, which is how it should be. Games evolve, players should too; or just stick to playing your old games and stop complaining about new ones you will never play.
You see that as good game play.. I don't .. I see GW2 as good solo combat because that is primarily what it is.. I still play GW2 today, but the only real time you need a group is when you need a "revive" while fighting for your life.. Oh sure various classes can toss up a "shield" for a few seconds is something happens, or another uses a group small heal once every 10 seconds.. But for the most part, combat is everyone contributing to the DPS pool.. Everyone is 90% dps, then you have your 10% other stuff.. But lets be honest here, just because your 10% might have tanking abilities or heals or CC.. Doesn't mean you are a healer or tank..
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of the trinity either.. The trinity by itself has caused many problems such as group or raid break down because of a missing role.. There were some encounters that couldn't be defeated without someone to CC, and that too is wrong.. What devs are doing now is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.. It is very easy to design classes that can both dps and have role abilities and let the GROUP make their decisions how they want to perform..
Since I'm familiar with GW2, I'll use their action combat as an example.. You have the Mesmer, which is basically a dps role using illusions of themselves to dps and take damage.. It really doesn't have ANY meaningful CC at all.. Why not allow the Mesmer the ability to charm one mob (take it as pet) and control it to fight another.. As far as the mob is concerned, the Mesmer isn't involved in the fight at all so it has no reason to agro on the Mesmer.. Elementalist could have a variety of elemental pets like a Mage did in EQ.. Then lets take Necromancer.. OMFG.. I hate that profession because I go thru freaking pets like water thru a sieve.. The pets seldom hold agro and if they do, they die before the end of the fight.. For me it's a pure DPS race to kill the mob before it kills my pet and me.. I would of liked it if GW2 actually had a Cleric profession that could dps when soloing, but offer group healing when grouped.. Instead of everyone running around trying to "revive" each other all the damn time..
For people wary of the game turning into GW2 type combat that's really all on the developers as far as how they build encounters.
GW2 had very hard hitting mobs but with big telegraphs for example. That led to one type of play. If attacks didn't hit so hard but were very difficult to consistently avoid, things would change quite a bit. Then even though there's no "dedicated healer", having someone that has that big AOE heal or something to keep everyone rolling would be very useful even though not required.
Originally posted by Tiller I don't know why people try so hard to hang one to classic trinity. I as well as many others have been able to adjust and cope just fine in gw2. No gw2 is not a game you can play with one hand on a hot pocket and one spamming heals and buffs for a group in the background while they attack, or just auto attacking while dps lays down damage from afar never fearing death as long as they stay back . You have to run around, heal yourself, dodge ect. Not just stand in one spot and shoot, which is how it should be. Games evolve, players should too; or just stick to playing your old games and stop complaining about new ones you will never play.
You see that as good game play.. I don't .. I see GW2 as good solo combat because that is primarily what it is.. I still play GW2 today, but the only real time you need a group is when you need a "revive" while fighting for your life.. Oh sure various classes can toss up a "shield" for a few seconds is something happens, or another uses a group small heal once every 10 seconds.. But for the most part, combat is everyone contributing to the DPS pool.. Everyone is 90% dps, then you have your 10% other stuff.. But lets be honest here, just because your 10% might have tanking abilities or heals or CC.. Doesn't mean you are a healer or tank..
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of the trinity either.. The trinity by itself has caused many problems such as group or raid break down because of a missing role.. There were some encounters that couldn't be defeated without someone to CC, and that too is wrong.. What devs are doing now is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.. It is very easy to design classes that can both dps and have role abilities and let the GROUP make their decisions how they want to perform..
Since I'm familiar with GW2, I'll use their action combat as an example.. You have the Mesmer, which is basically a dps role using illusions of themselves to dps and take damage.. It really doesn't have ANY meaningful CC at all.. Why not allow the Mesmer the ability to charm one mob (take it as pet) and control it to fight another.. As far as the mob is concerned, the Mesmer isn't involved in the fight at all so it has no reason to agro on the Mesmer.. Elementalist could have a variety of elemental pets like a Mage did in EQ.. Then lets take Necromancer.. OMFG.. I hate that profession because I go thru freaking pets like water thru a sieve.. The pets seldom hold agro and if they do, they die before the end of the fight.. For me it's a pure DPS race to kill the mob before it kills my pet and me.. I would of liked it if GW2 actually had a Cleric profession that could dps when soloing, but offer group healing when grouped.. Instead of everyone running around trying to "revive" each other all the damn time..
I hear ya. and agree on your points. it is hard at times without a healer and makes some group runs nothing but chaos. I think what devs are trying to get away from is the class requirements for groups, healers being the most important role, sometimes alienating other classes from groups. It sucks when you are told you can't run a dungeon because the group has to many dps players already. The only solution the have been able to come up with is what we see in gw2, or duel classing. Can't give group healers to all classes either,If everyone was a group healer (even tanks) no one would die. The best thing they came up with is everyone heals themselves, group buffs, and everyone can rezz. Maybe we will see something better someday.
One day devs will get over this "down with aggro" trend and they will learn that aggro is the pillar of mob AI. One does not simply remove aggro, one adds to it. Removing aggro and tanks ability to taunt or somehow block mobs from other players, effectively removes the foundation for both MOB AI and the rpg role system. Guess roles are kind of a joke tho in EQN. It will be a flavor of the month like LoL.
Lets assume the game has a system similar to GW2 as many of you are assuming as fact.
If any of you have played GW2 seriously then you know there actually is an aggro and tanking system. I've run many dungeons with friends and we all have specific roles, although not locked into those roles.
And yes this is working as intended, we actually have a Guardian tank in our group and on my engineer I am the kiting tank, big difference is, when you have aggro you cannot face tank forever, or hold aggro 100% of the time depending on how the battle is going.
SOOOOOooooo...if a similar but more in depth system is used in EQ Next incorporating NPC behavior by likes/dislikes + consideration to Damage, Shields, CC and more then I am very interested in at least giving the system a shot.
I can agree the GW2 one is not the best, and I would've preferred more rigid roles but its not as zergy as people make it out to be...which leads me to believe alot of those people havent played the game seriously and know very little about it.
Edit: As for the healing system all classes have more than enough heals to manage themselves, plus healing skills from others...and thats not counting smart players who actually combo off water fields.
Seems they changed their mind, or someone misunderstood.
There is no trinity. There is no tank, no set dps, no healers. No one will be watching other players health bars, everyone will participate in combat. Its mandatory. No role systems at all, just run around and mash buttons. No aggro system because mobs have "evolved", so now they indiscriminately attack whoever they feel like, though never smart enough to know where or how players will continue to evade them and thus will die miserably in all the chaos.
Its horrible.
They need to stick with trinity or watch everyone quit their game in a month (or during beta) just like everyone did in GW2. Like you said, if they are going to piss on the role system and allow everyone to be everything, then let another player role up as tank and let them tank. No reason to double fuk the system by adding both on the fly role changing (blah) AND no aggro system.
^So much this. Thank you, sir.
Also, I keep hearing about "everyone participating in combat" and how they want that in EQN so there will be no trinity. Umm, what? I wasn't aware that I was never participating in games with my tanks and healers (mostly what I played)? So I spent years never participating? My groups could have done all that without me?
No, DPSers are not the only ones who participate. Make no mistake, there *are* many players who enjoy tank and healer classes.
I get what SOE was saying about how they don't want guild X to not be able to do content Y tonight because Jimbo didn't log on with his healer. But why eliminate the trinity because of that? Why not just go with the fast skill/role swapping mechanic like they have and allow anyone to fill any role on short notice, thus solving the issue and not ending up with GW2-like crap combat and dungeon play?
Everyone seems to be comparing EQN to GW2 (which is fair), but has anyone else seen the striking resemblance to another past SOE game......SWG (as it was at launch)?
Seems they changed their mind, or someone misunderstood.
There is no trinity. There is no tank, no set dps, no healers. No one will be watching other players health bars, everyone will participate in combat. Its mandatory. No role systems at all, just run around and mash buttons. No aggro system because mobs have "evolved", so now they indiscriminately attack whoever they feel like, though never smart enough to know where or how players will continue to evade them and thus will die miserably in all the chaos.
Its horrible.
They need to stick with trinity or watch everyone quit their game in a month (or during beta) just like everyone did in GW2. Like you said, if they are going to piss on the role system and allow everyone to be everything, then let another player role up as tank and let them tank. No reason to double fuk the system by adding both on the fly role changing (blah) AND no aggro system.
Why is that I visualize someone saying, "Hey Wizard, where did that warrior just go a second ago?".. Only to have the Wizard respond with, "It's me dude.. I changed over there behind that scrub".. just like Superman..
Seems they changed their mind, or someone misunderstood.
There is no trinity. There is no tank, no set dps, no healers. No one will be watching other players health bars, everyone will participate in combat. Its mandatory. No role systems at all, just run around and mash buttons. No aggro system because mobs have "evolved", so now they indiscriminately attack whoever they feel like, though never smart enough to know where or how players will continue to evade them and thus will die miserably in all the chaos.
Its horrible.
They need to stick with trinity or watch everyone quit their game in a month (or during beta) just like everyone did in GW2. Like you said, if they are going to piss on the role system and allow everyone to be everything, then let another player role up as tank and let them tank. No reason to double fuk the system by adding both on the fly role changing (blah) AND no aggro system.
You have no idea what you are talking about Dullahan. You are painting a straw man argument and calling it horrible. That is intellectual dishonesty. How about you wait until they actually release information about the mechanics before you lay them to waste. Most people just want a game that is fun to actually play as a group. Just because your mind cannot conceive of a game that can work without a trinity does not mean that it's not possible. And more to the point SOE has not given you enough information at all to form any meaningful opinion.
Right now you're sounding like those guys back in the day that said the world was flat because that's all they've ever known to be true and you are crying blasphemy at anyone saying that the world may not actually be flat. Give yourself a chance to be enlightened my friend. At least let them tell you exactly what they are planning to do before you shout to the mountain tops that it's never going to work.
Comments
I also seem to remember some exclusive one time server events that took place that were huge deals in eq1. Really EQ1 laid the the foundation for many games, even gw2 with their world events. More I think about it, the more I realize EQ1 was really what started it all.
You see that as good game play.. I don't .. I see GW2 as good solo combat because that is primarily what it is.. I still play GW2 today, but the only real time you need a group is when you need a "revive" while fighting for your life.. Oh sure various classes can toss up a "shield" for a few seconds is something happens, or another uses a group small heal once every 10 seconds.. But for the most part, combat is everyone contributing to the DPS pool.. Everyone is 90% dps, then you have your 10% other stuff.. But lets be honest here, just because your 10% might have tanking abilities or heals or CC.. Doesn't mean you are a healer or tank..
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not a huge fan of the trinity either.. The trinity by itself has caused many problems such as group or raid break down because of a missing role.. There were some encounters that couldn't be defeated without someone to CC, and that too is wrong.. What devs are doing now is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.. It is very easy to design classes that can both dps and have role abilities and let the GROUP make their decisions how they want to perform..
Since I'm familiar with GW2, I'll use their action combat as an example.. You have the Mesmer, which is basically a dps role using illusions of themselves to dps and take damage.. It really doesn't have ANY meaningful CC at all.. Why not allow the Mesmer the ability to charm one mob (take it as pet) and control it to fight another.. As far as the mob is concerned, the Mesmer isn't involved in the fight at all so it has no reason to agro on the Mesmer.. Elementalist could have a variety of elemental pets like a Mage did in EQ.. Then lets take Necromancer.. OMFG.. I hate that profession because I go thru freaking pets like water thru a sieve.. The pets seldom hold agro and if they do, they die before the end of the fight.. For me it's a pure DPS race to kill the mob before it kills my pet and me.. I would of liked it if GW2 actually had a Cleric profession that could dps when soloing, but offer group healing when grouped.. Instead of everyone running around trying to "revive" each other all the damn time..
For people wary of the game turning into GW2 type combat that's really all on the developers as far as how they build encounters.
GW2 had very hard hitting mobs but with big telegraphs for example. That led to one type of play. If attacks didn't hit so hard but were very difficult to consistently avoid, things would change quite a bit. Then even though there's no "dedicated healer", having someone that has that big AOE heal or something to keep everyone rolling would be very useful even though not required.
I hear ya. and agree on your points. it is hard at times without a healer and makes some group runs nothing but chaos. I think what devs are trying to get away from is the class requirements for groups, healers being the most important role, sometimes alienating other classes from groups. It sucks when you are told you can't run a dungeon because the group has to many dps players already. The only solution the have been able to come up with is what we see in gw2, or duel classing. Can't give group healers to all classes either,If everyone was a group healer (even tanks) no one would die. The best thing they came up with is everyone heals themselves, group buffs, and everyone can rezz. Maybe we will see something better someday.
Totally agree.
Totally gutted.
Totally GW2 clone.
Lets assume the game has a system similar to GW2 as many of you are assuming as fact.
If any of you have played GW2 seriously then you know there actually is an aggro and tanking system. I've run many dungeons with friends and we all have specific roles, although not locked into those roles.
Aggro in GW2 works as the following
^So much this. Thank you, sir.
Also, I keep hearing about "everyone participating in combat" and how they want that in EQN so there will be no trinity. Umm, what? I wasn't aware that I was never participating in games with my tanks and healers (mostly what I played)? So I spent years never participating? My groups could have done all that without me?
No, DPSers are not the only ones who participate. Make no mistake, there *are* many players who enjoy tank and healer classes.
I get what SOE was saying about how they don't want guild X to not be able to do content Y tonight because Jimbo didn't log on with his healer. But why eliminate the trinity because of that? Why not just go with the fast skill/role swapping mechanic like they have and allow anyone to fill any role on short notice, thus solving the issue and not ending up with GW2-like crap combat and dungeon play?
No, not really.
Lol I laughed at this. I can picture that.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
You have no idea what you are talking about Dullahan. You are painting a straw man argument and calling it horrible. That is intellectual dishonesty. How about you wait until they actually release information about the mechanics before you lay them to waste. Most people just want a game that is fun to actually play as a group. Just because your mind cannot conceive of a game that can work without a trinity does not mean that it's not possible. And more to the point SOE has not given you enough information at all to form any meaningful opinion.
Right now you're sounding like those guys back in the day that said the world was flat because that's all they've ever known to be true and you are crying blasphemy at anyone saying that the world may not actually be flat. Give yourself a chance to be enlightened my friend. At least let them tell you exactly what they are planning to do before you shout to the mountain tops that it's never going to work.