Originally posted by Kyleran I'm not a fan of this design, but the decision has been made, likely to ensure good playability on consoles.
I'll have to adapt assuming other elements of the game interest me.
I think you hit the nail on the head there. You can't have dozens of skills on multiple hotbars if you want it to be playable on a console with a gamepad. Consolitis raises its ugly head again.
8 truly fun, interesting and meaningful skills is a lot better than 25-40 mediocre skills that no one notices or cares about when you use them. All large hotbar count games devolve into pressing a pre-defined skill rotation.
Do a little dot, do a little dd, do a little dd, do a little dd, do a little AOE, do a little dd, do a little dot, repeat.
The key is to make each skill fun and exciting to use, to have really unique combat animations, spell effects... to make each ability have a really large effect and need to be used correctly.
More does not = better. Just about every WoW-like MMORPG on the planet has proven that.
Again lets compare than. Post some wiki examples. I can show you some interesting skills that a game like WoW offers at any given time for a single class.
I would take more choice of more skill bars. I really don't mind the 8 skill bars I just don't like being locked into my weapon choice. I don't understand why they have this amazing multi class idea and the hinder it. 40 classes in the game but at most you will get to choose 1 thing off 4 of the classes. Why are they not allowing us to multi class the weapon skills as well. I like gw2 combat but the problem for me was that my warrior played no different then the other 10,000 warriors. Everyone used greatsword/gun and their was no difference between me and anyone else playing the class. I understand that their is 40 classes and that's a giant step up from gw2 but the fact is my pally/rogue/bard whatever will still be using the same weapon skills as every other pally/rogue/bard. I think it would be a lot better to build your "own" class off of the 40 classes they offer. still early in development hoping somthing will be changed or added to give me more options.
I sux at optimizing my build within a certain constrain...therefore GIVE ME 1000 SKILLS SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO USE MY BRAIN TO BUILD MY CHARACTER!!!!
Seriously though, 8 skill or 1000, it will depend on the depth of the skills...and there is far too little information released to judge and cry about it...so just chill.
Originally posted by Margrave I remember EQ1 had a limited skill bar. Reminds me of having pick your skills/spells to have prepared in D&D. I think it's a great idea. You have to plan your character actions ahead of time. Sounds nostalgic and fun.
exactly, you can tell what people have never played EQ in there entire life yet complain that it isn't like EQ because it doesn't have unlimited use of skills and spells?
they must think EQ2 is the one and only EQ game. EQ2 ripped off wow, that is why you can hotbar every spell and skill at the same time, like wow.
I think we know way too little at the moment, which sucks a lot.
A few things that have me guessing...
Combos: Are in. But does that mean Stun + Attack is better then the two alone or Stun + Attack = 3rd Unique Attack like a Heavy Hitting Knock Back?
If combos open up more abilities (still no info on spellweaving) this could lead to a lot more abilities from just 8 buttons. Imagine 2, 3, 4+ buttons in a combo doing crazier and crazier attacks (very arcade fighter style).
Weapon "sets" and pairs: They mentioned a sword + shield is a weapon and 2 swords are a weapon. Is this like GW2 where main hand has 2-3 abilities and offhand has abilities or do these two sets have completely different skills?
Is a sword + shield considered a pair or something like GW2 where you can use a 2-handed sword and rifle while in combat as they are a "pair."
Buffs? Where are they in all this? Can you buff up and then swap out for active abilities? Are there no buffs (GW2 again....) and everything is instant, short cool down, spammable?
They mentioned some sort of "cost" system like energy or stamina where you couldn't just do all your big moves at once. If we only have 8 abilities and can't spam everything, are we forced to then spam only a 1-3 abilities for most of the fight?
Also don't know the extent that gear (gliding boots) will play into everything. Does all gear have active/passive abilities?
Again I think we know way too little at this point. There is obviously so many roads they could be going down that it is a complete guessing game.
I would prefer 15-20 abilities based on my past experience, but I have faith they know what they are doing.
I could see them very easily starting with 8 (4 weapon, 4 character) adding 2nd weapon and secondary character (8 weapon, 8 character) to get up to 16 which is right around average for most games. Maybe you have two sets of 8 you can swap between, so you could have an offensive 8 and defensive 8 or 16 of either.
all these people who say " what about daa original eq had also that baabaa " quit it up already and let the original be original why it always have to go like something use to be? world changes we should change with it and not drag the past with us whining about every new thing that comes just cause in past it was different!
as for what it comes with 4 weapon skills, for me it was not enough utilization with skill bar in guild wars 2 and i know that its about decitions what you wanna use and what you dont but still it was not enough for me personally and i know again there is people who say it was totally fine cause " again going in the past " guild wars 1 had it aswell. so, more customization for skills aswell i vote.
Originally posted by Kyleran I'm not a fan of this design, but the decision has been made, likely to ensure good playability on consoles.
I'll have to adapt assuming other elements of the game interest me.
I think you hit the nail on the head there. You can't have dozens of skills on multiple hotbars if you want it to be playable on a console with a gamepad. Consolitis raises its ugly head again.
8 truly fun, interesting and meaningful skills is a lot better than 25-40 mediocre skills that no one notices or cares about when you use them. All large hotbar count games devolve into pressing a pre-defined skill rotation.
Do a little dot, do a little dd, do a little dd, do a little dd, do a little AOE, do a little dd, do a little dot, repeat.
The key is to make each skill fun and exciting to use, to have really unique combat animations, spell effects... to make each ability have a really large effect and need to be used correctly.
More does not = better. Just about every WoW-like MMORPG on the planet has proven that.
Again lets compare than. Post some wiki examples. I can show you some interesting skills that a game like WoW offers at any given time for a single class.
That won't accomplish anything. The thing is, regardless of whether you have 40 skills or 8 skills, people will pick the best few that can either nuke down or support and stick to using those.
And another fact is, there's more longevity in creating builds than in having every skill available to you on one bar.
I think 8 skills is just a gear or 3 to low.... At minimum it should be around 12, personaly i would not mind 20 slots. Anyone playing a Warlock or Hunter in WoW had crazy amount of keybindings, it made the classes easy to play but extremely hard to master. Those 2 classes were my mains for a long time, at some point i had around 40+ keybingins and i used most of them.
FF ARR also use multi classes, i would prefer their class setup and skill bar setup pver GW2 anyday...
We havent seen the UI or classes in action, or havent got a chanse to play around with it. But iam going to be fair, no ammount of work or spells will change the fact that it will bore me to death over longer periods of playing.
Even if you have a 1000 skills to choose from for your 4 extra slots, you shall always need the right tools for the right moment. If you get into trouble your dead or most likely dead or not usefull.
Dont know if you can change skills on the fly like in GW2 (out of combat) But you can change traits, wich is your spec into the weapons you prefer.
I hated it....... But what i hate the most is that there might be no real healers or tanks... This change everyone into a dps spamming monkey GW2 is in my eyes boring as all classes feel the same, add those 8 skills and you see why many people feel this is a wrong choice.
No roles - 8 skills - public events = boring within a months or 2 / 3. EQ 1 did it the good way, GW2 did it the bad way. so innovation my ass, i rather go back in time and remake those mmo's with todays graphics.
It's the weapon skills. Having half of your already small set of skills predetermined destroys most forms of customization. Which, in turn, destroys depth. This is blatantly shown through Guild Wars 2. The predetermined set of skills makes the game extremely shallow once the player knows what they're doing. There is next to no room to change things up. They give an illusion of diversity on the surface level, but once that surface level has been examined, there isn't much left to examine.
This is far different than Everquest's memorization system. When the core skills you use are already determined and set in stone, there isn't much one can do to differentiate themselves from a different player using the same class. Everquest, at the very least, gave you freedom in choice; The only limitation was that of the class you decided to play. The current setup EQNext has is going to come back and bite them in the ass. Just as it has with Guild Wars 2. Guaranteed. Player retention will be low once the game mechanics have been thoroughly gutted. And given that SOE wants a fully F2P game, that doesn't really bode well.
Numbers of skills don't equal challenge or hardcore, more skills you have you are forced to macro them so in the end you come down to same 8 skills you using anyway and in some odd situation you use skill 9 and 10.
Just look at RIFT, that game have many skills and skillbars, and you hardly used half of them, and what did you do?, yes you had to macro the shit out of it to be able to compete in PVP, skill tab 1 2 3....yeah fun, just focus on moving and jumping while pressing 1 2 3.
They might have changed that, I haven't played for a long time.
Id say that in most MMOs you only use about 8 spells in combat or PVP anyways. The rest are just under certain situations that probably wont even be relevant in EQN.
Numbers of skills don't equal challenge or hardcore, more skills you have you are forced to macro them so in the end you come down to same 8 skills you using anyway and in some odd situation you use skill 9 and 10.
Just look at RIFT, that game have many skills and skillbars, and you hardly used half of them, and what did you do?, yes you had to macro the shit out of it to be able to compete in PVP, skill tab 1 2 3....yeah fun, just focus on moving and jumping while pressing 1 2 3.
They might have changed that, I haven't played for a long time.
I find 8 skills to be more than aduquate.
Want to gimp yourself...use macros
Most players I know use way more than 10 skills in RIFT in any single fight and would be gimped with less.
I have a keyboard set up that lets me handle 32 keybinds without moving my hands off the core keys.
but thats in PvP, lets face it PvE can be macroed to %$#@ and set to a basic formula 1,2,3,4 I WIN.
THIS CHANGE IS ABOUT CONTROLLER USERS (not announced but you can bet it will be)
gimping games so that PS4 users done feel left out
Having said that, dont worry there are MANY other MMOs coming out soon and most of them look to heave learned form the MISTAKE that is GW2 rather than copying it.
Numbers of skills don't equal challenge or hardcore, more skills you have you are forced to macro them so in the end you come down to same 8 skills you using anyway and in some odd situation you use skill 9 and 10.
Just look at RIFT, that game have many skills and skillbars, and you hardly used half of them, and what did you do?, yes you had to macro the shit out of it to be able to compete in PVP, skill tab 1 2 3....yeah fun, just focus on moving and jumping while pressing 1 2 3.
They might have changed that, I haven't played for a long time.
I find 8 skills to be more than aduquate.
Having said that, dont worry there are MANY other MMOs coming out soon and most of them look to heave learned form the MISTAKE that is GW2 rather than copying it.
What you call misstake me and many other calls success.
We all can't love the same thing but calling it a misstake is an opinion not a fact.
It is really not the number of skills that matter but how much strategy that is involve.
A combat system were you autoattack as standard and have 8 skills you need to use at the exact right time still takes more player skill than 40 skills you rotate.
So for me it really matters more how they implement it than the number of skills you can have in one build.
A good MMO should require tactics and strategy. Quick to learn but very slow to master. If they pull this off then I am happy with the choice, if not it will really suck.
What we really need to know is how many class abilities will we have. In EQ, sure i may have had only 8 abilities "memmed" but i had a whole lot more on my Shadowknight that could quickly be swapped in and out when it was required.
Sometimes i ran with 4 Dots or maybe i had 2 nukes, sometimes i had my low level Fear in for clearing tight spaces. Then there was Invis, Invis vs Undead, See Invis, See Invis vs Undead, Feign Death, Levitate, Lich, Summon my pet skellie, Shrink pet, Shadow Step for PvP, Buffs for when i wanted to protect against the dispelling of a needed buff, Oooops forgot to put dispel in there, did i even mention life taps and drains?.................
I'm sure i've forgotten many abilities.
All these abilities is what gave the world colour and depth (yes colour does have a u in it).
I have no issues at all with limiting a character to 8 hot keys.. I loved EQ1's UI concept and their use of macros. Knowing what skills you have loaded and how to use them is part of the strategy and fun.. Having 800 rows of hot bars is a game breaker for me.. and using 1 button macro's that are basically "I WIN" buttons is crazy..
Actually I plan on testing this because I hope it will provide something 'different' as in voxel world but the skill system is horrible, it is just another version of GW2s system which got really dull. boring and easy after a while.
And no there are not a lot of other games out there for me, so far just 2, EVE Online and L2. EVE is a bit dull due to just having a few modules on a ship but makes up for it by being harder to master in other regards. Thing is both games are 10 years old and I'd like to play something modern that can keep me entertained, seems that is just a dream for us that enjoys good gameplay and PVP though.
Since when the ammount of skill hotbars on an UI became the measure of good gameplay? gawd we are much deeper in the forest than i thought
Edit*
Sure i agree that if all the 8 skills are always the same it will get dull fast. but who said that there is no other skills? correct me if i am wrong but last time i checked the topic was about the 8 slot hotbar not the ammount of skills.. well i might be wrong in believing that there is large skill variety w/e its not like im going to play it anyway
Sure i agree that if all the 8 skills are always the same it will get dull fast. but who said that there is no other skills? correct me if i am wrong but last time i checked the topic was about the 8 slot hotbar not the ammount of skills.. well i might be wrong in believing that there is large skill variety w/e its not like im going to play it anyway
I may be wrong but I believe is about the player being LIMITED to 8 of their skills accessible at any point in time.
It remains possible that they may let someone swap skills at any time (even in combat) BUT this was not stated and MOST games with limited slots dont let players hot swap in combat.
If they DO let you swap in combat then they they will be making something very tricky (which I like) but I would not expect them to do this.
8 slots is all about players on game consoles.
I doubt anyone is upset about not being able to have bars full of mounts potions and items on screen at the same time ( although a few may be)
P.S. some have said this is about making people focus on the action based combat, Games like TERA already have action based combat and WAY more active skills and I can tell you as a healer (or any other class) in TERA if you are NOT watching the fight ...you fail. yes TERA is %$#@ in so many other ways so dont bother pointing that out.
People don't want to be challenged when playing games. They don't want want to make decisions for themselves. They don't want to reason.
They just want something readily accessible without any kind of learning process involved.
For that very reason Call of Duty has been very popular and for that very reason they are dumbing down MMORPG combat to accommodate the masses.
Didn't the original EverQuest have a limited skill bar?
Having all skills accessible all the time just means you don't have to make choices of what skills to take, what areas you going to be strong and which areas you will be weak and reliant on your party.
Limited decks and drafting cards to make decks are extremely popular systems.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
24 keys in this game, much more entertaining to watch than GW2 that's for sure. I prefer games that make me try and pay attention, IE not GW2, and probably not Wildstar at this rate.
The difference between GW1 and GW2 is that all the skills on your bar were extremely important in GW1, In GW2 it's more 1,1,1,1,2. Also in GW1 you had much more freedom with your skills and weapon.
Comments
Again lets compare than. Post some wiki examples. I can show you some interesting skills that a game like WoW offers at any given time for a single class.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I sux at optimizing my build within a certain constrain...therefore GIVE ME 1000 SKILLS SO THAT I DON'T HAVE TO USE MY BRAIN TO BUILD MY CHARACTER!!!!
Seriously though, 8 skill or 1000, it will depend on the depth of the skills...and there is far too little information released to judge and cry about it...so just chill.
exactly, you can tell what people have never played EQ in there entire life yet complain that it isn't like EQ because it doesn't have unlimited use of skills and spells?
they must think EQ2 is the one and only EQ game. EQ2 ripped off wow, that is why you can hotbar every spell and skill at the same time, like wow.
I think we know way too little at the moment, which sucks a lot.
A few things that have me guessing...
Combos: Are in. But does that mean Stun + Attack is better then the two alone or Stun + Attack = 3rd Unique Attack like a Heavy Hitting Knock Back?
If combos open up more abilities (still no info on spellweaving) this could lead to a lot more abilities from just 8 buttons. Imagine 2, 3, 4+ buttons in a combo doing crazier and crazier attacks (very arcade fighter style).
Weapon "sets" and pairs: They mentioned a sword + shield is a weapon and 2 swords are a weapon. Is this like GW2 where main hand has 2-3 abilities and offhand has abilities or do these two sets have completely different skills?
Is a sword + shield considered a pair or something like GW2 where you can use a 2-handed sword and rifle while in combat as they are a "pair."
Buffs? Where are they in all this? Can you buff up and then swap out for active abilities? Are there no buffs (GW2 again....) and everything is instant, short cool down, spammable?
They mentioned some sort of "cost" system like energy or stamina where you couldn't just do all your big moves at once. If we only have 8 abilities and can't spam everything, are we forced to then spam only a 1-3 abilities for most of the fight?
Also don't know the extent that gear (gliding boots) will play into everything. Does all gear have active/passive abilities?
Again I think we know way too little at this point. There is obviously so many roads they could be going down that it is a complete guessing game.
I would prefer 15-20 abilities based on my past experience, but I have faith they know what they are doing.
I could see them very easily starting with 8 (4 weapon, 4 character) adding 2nd weapon and secondary character (8 weapon, 8 character) to get up to 16 which is right around average for most games. Maybe you have two sets of 8 you can swap between, so you could have an offensive 8 and defensive 8 or 16 of either.
So many questions....dang you DEVS!
all these people who say " what about daa original eq had also that baabaa " quit it up already and let the original be original why it always have to go like something use to be? world changes we should change with it and not drag the past with us whining about every new thing that comes just cause in past it was different!
as for what it comes with 4 weapon skills, for me it was not enough utilization with skill bar in guild wars 2 and i know that its about decitions what you wanna use and what you dont but still it was not enough for me personally and i know again there is people who say it was totally fine cause " again going in the past " guild wars 1 had it aswell. so, more customization for skills aswell i vote.
That won't accomplish anything. The thing is, regardless of whether you have 40 skills or 8 skills, people will pick the best few that can either nuke down or support and stick to using those.
And another fact is, there's more longevity in creating builds than in having every skill available to you on one bar.
This is not a game.
I think 8 skills is just a gear or 3 to low....
At minimum it should be around 12, personaly i would not mind 20 slots.
Anyone playing a Warlock or Hunter in WoW had crazy amount of keybindings, it made the classes easy to play but extremely hard to master.
Those 2 classes were my mains for a long time, at some point i had around 40+ keybingins and i used most of them.
FF ARR also use multi classes, i would prefer their class setup and skill bar setup pver GW2 anyday...
We havent seen the UI or classes in action, or havent got a chanse to play around with it.
But iam going to be fair, no ammount of work or spells will change the fact that it will bore me to death over longer periods of playing.
Even if you have a 1000 skills to choose from for your 4 extra slots, you shall always need the right tools for the right moment.
If you get into trouble your dead or most likely dead or not usefull.
Dont know if you can change skills on the fly like in GW2 (out of combat)
But you can change traits, wich is your spec into the weapons you prefer.
I hated it.......
But what i hate the most is that there might be no real healers or tanks...
This change everyone into a dps spamming monkey
GW2 is in my eyes boring as all classes feel the same, add those 8 skills and you see why many people feel this is a wrong choice.
No roles - 8 skills - public events = boring within a months or 2 / 3.
EQ 1 did it the good way, GW2 did it the bad way. so innovation my ass, i rather go back in time and remake those mmo's with todays graphics.
It's the weapon skills. Having half of your already small set of skills predetermined destroys most forms of customization. Which, in turn, destroys depth. This is blatantly shown through Guild Wars 2. The predetermined set of skills makes the game extremely shallow once the player knows what they're doing. There is next to no room to change things up. They give an illusion of diversity on the surface level, but once that surface level has been examined, there isn't much left to examine.
This is far different than Everquest's memorization system. When the core skills you use are already determined and set in stone, there isn't much one can do to differentiate themselves from a different player using the same class. Everquest, at the very least, gave you freedom in choice; The only limitation was that of the class you decided to play. The current setup EQNext has is going to come back and bite them in the ass. Just as it has with Guild Wars 2. Guaranteed. Player retention will be low once the game mechanics have been thoroughly gutted. And given that SOE wants a fully F2P game, that doesn't really bode well.
But alas, we'll all see come release. *Shrugs*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgT8C47m2_0
This basically sums up what peoples reaction is to EQN... I have a feeling I will be using this a lot.
In most cases this works too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pUSIjdvTIY&feature=player_detailpage&t=109
What are your other Hobbies?
Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...
Numbers of skills don't equal challenge or hardcore, more skills you have you are forced to macro them so in the end you come down to same 8 skills you using anyway and in some odd situation you use skill 9 and 10.
Just look at RIFT, that game have many skills and skillbars, and you hardly used half of them, and what did you do?, yes you had to macro the shit out of it to be able to compete in PVP, skill tab 1 2 3....yeah fun, just focus on moving and jumping while pressing 1 2 3.
They might have changed that, I haven't played for a long time.
I find 8 skills to be more than aduquate.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Want to gimp yourself...use macros
Most players I know use way more than 10 skills in RIFT in any single fight and would be gimped with less.
I have a keyboard set up that lets me handle 32 keybinds without moving my hands off the core keys.
but thats in PvP, lets face it PvE can be macroed to %$#@ and set to a basic formula 1,2,3,4 I WIN.
THIS CHANGE IS ABOUT CONTROLLER USERS (not announced but you can bet it will be)
gimping games so that PS4 users done feel left out
Having said that, dont worry there are MANY other MMOs coming out soon and most of them look to heave learned form the MISTAKE that is GW2 rather than copying it.
What you call misstake me and many other calls success.
We all can't love the same thing but calling it a misstake is an opinion not a fact.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
It is really not the number of skills that matter but how much strategy that is involve.
A combat system were you autoattack as standard and have 8 skills you need to use at the exact right time still takes more player skill than 40 skills you rotate.
So for me it really matters more how they implement it than the number of skills you can have in one build.
A good MMO should require tactics and strategy. Quick to learn but very slow to master. If they pull this off then I am happy with the choice, if not it will really suck.
Everything posted here is opinion, even your opinion that my opinion is an opinion.
Having said that, the devs have indicated they are hoping for a game that holds players for 10+ years, not 6 months and thats all GW2 managed.
(F2P games that cant manage 1m+ players are not in a good space, P2P games only need abut 100k+ players to be in good shape)
Whilst EQN may hold people due to a great crafting system, more dynamic world and solid explorational environment.
I doubt they will get many people (obviously you) excited over limiting people to 8 skills at any one time (except my 4yo son)
What we really need to know is how many class abilities will we have. In EQ, sure i may have had only 8 abilities "memmed" but i had a whole lot more on my Shadowknight that could quickly be swapped in and out when it was required.
Sometimes i ran with 4 Dots or maybe i had 2 nukes, sometimes i had my low level Fear in for clearing tight spaces. Then there was Invis, Invis vs Undead, See Invis, See Invis vs Undead, Feign Death, Levitate, Lich, Summon my pet skellie, Shrink pet, Shadow Step for PvP, Buffs for when i wanted to protect against the dispelling of a needed buff, Oooops forgot to put dispel in there, did i even mention life taps and drains?.................
I'm sure i've forgotten many abilities.
All these abilities is what gave the world colour and depth (yes colour does have a u in it).
I voted NO btw.
Since when the ammount of skill hotbars on an UI became the measure of good gameplay? gawd we are much deeper in the forest than i thought
Edit*
Sure i agree that if all the 8 skills are always the same it will get dull fast. but who said that there is no other skills? correct me if i am wrong but last time i checked the topic was about the 8 slot hotbar not the ammount of skills.. well i might be wrong in believing that there is large skill variety w/e its not like im going to play it anyway
I may be wrong but I believe is about the player being LIMITED to 8 of their skills accessible at any point in time.
It remains possible that they may let someone swap skills at any time (even in combat) BUT this was not stated and MOST games with limited slots dont let players hot swap in combat.
If they DO let you swap in combat then they they will be making something very tricky (which I like) but I would not expect them to do this.
8 slots is all about players on game consoles.
I doubt anyone is upset about not being able to have bars full of mounts potions and items on screen at the same time ( although a few may be)
P.S. some have said this is about making people focus on the action based combat, Games like TERA already have action based combat and WAY more active skills and I can tell you as a healer (or any other class) in TERA if you are NOT watching the fight ...you fail. yes TERA is %$#@ in so many other ways so dont bother pointing that out.
People don't want to be challenged when playing games. They don't want want to make decisions for themselves. They don't want to reason.
They just want something readily accessible without any kind of learning process involved.
For that very reason Call of Duty has been very popular and for that very reason they are dumbing down MMORPG combat to accommodate the masses.
Considering Anet isn't talking about expansions it seems to me GW2 got hold of more than 1 million players 12 months after realease.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
Didn't the original EverQuest have a limited skill bar?
Having all skills accessible all the time just means you don't have to make choices of what skills to take, what areas you going to be strong and which areas you will be weak and reliant on your party.
Limited decks and drafting cards to make decks are extremely popular systems.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
24 keys in this game, much more entertaining to watch than GW2 that's for sure. I prefer games that make me try and pay attention, IE not GW2, and probably not Wildstar at this rate.
The difference between GW1 and GW2 is that all the skills on your bar were extremely important in GW1, In GW2 it's more 1,1,1,1,2. Also in GW1 you had much more freedom with your skills and weapon.
Anyways, I love spectacle pvp.