I dont think anyone denied that up until recently the current rend was f2p. Now the trend, at least for the moment, is clearly p2p with 3 of the 4 biggest upcoming AAA MMOs announced as p2p.
Basically, both payment models are here to stay. As they have been for years.
How about Destiny and Division? How about other MOBAs?
Sure .. no one can predict that future perfectly. And i doubt sub-only game will suddenly all die. But we will see if these games will be successful, or they will turn f2p fast like so many before them.
It will be interesting to see though.
MMO shooters and MOBAs are a different breed than MMORPGs.
For the htree upcoming p2p games, they wont live or die by the sub model, they will live or die by the game quality. A game cant be mediocre (unless its something unique that you cant get elsewhere) and make it as a sub game.
No, actually when a corporation decides to take a loved IP and whore it, I tend to not give them anymore of my money unless I see changes on the corporate as well as game levels.
EA, Sony, Microsoft and Zenimax are on my no buy list. I am not missing out on anything, the quality levels are much higher elsewhere anyway and by companies that actually care about the product as well as the consumers that buy them. Bethesda games are crap without the modding community.
wow .. you care about that?
Personally i only evaluate if a game is fun (for me) or not. I wouldn't care who produces it, or why. It does not affect my enjoyment.
In fact, Dead Space is a great game (to me). So it is produced by EA. I don't really care. So you don't think you are missing out. That is your choice.
But i know for a fact that i am missing out, if i boycott companies. So i don't.
No, actually when a corporation decides to take a loved IP and whore it, I tend to not give them anymore of my money unless I see changes on the corporate as well as game levels.
EA, Sony, Microsoft and Zenimax are on my no buy list. I am not missing out on anything, the quality levels are much higher elsewhere anyway and by companies that actually care about the product as well as the consumers that buy them. Bethesda games are crap without the modding community.
It's really funny how you keep insulting TESO even though the game isn't even out yet. Keep on stating things you don't even know to be facts please.
I have more than enough beta experience to place full judgment, which wasn't far from my opinion gained from the information released publically which pointed to a game in TES name only and enhanced further from the poor animations, story and combat gained by testing.
The game is of an IP with no monthly rental fees and on top of it, doesn't resemble the IP itself, isn't even doing it graphically!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
MMO shooters and MOBAs are a different breed than MMORPGs.
Not really different enough for me. Personally i don't care about the MMO label that much. it is just a label.
It is not like i would choose a game based on whether it is a MMO or not.
MMO's are different in the fact people want to play them long term Years. in this instance a P2P model is far cheaper. Not everyone wants to game hop endlessly every month. that would be 1 thing that is different about MMO's.
which is why some prefer P2P as F2P spendy if you want to play more than a couple months
Yes, crazy to think that people do not like a business model for mmos that require 'whales' to subsidize their gaming....I find it dishonest, and while I have plenty of money, I would rather pay a sub, the same as the other people, and then have everything 100% equal to all in a mmo. I like things to be fair, it isn't about the money, as most mmos I wouldn't play if it had no cash shop and was f2p... I value my time more than feeling something is free, and I need to play it.
Hopefully p2p mmos will learn to not push the limit, and if they must have a shop, keep it cosmetic only, no sense in being p2p, but still run a f2p cash shop basically....Those titles can go b2p/f2p or out of business as far as I am concerned.
Hopefully SoE is paying attention and EQN does P2P (landmark wont be, but plenty of time before EQN is out). I dislike playing a game that is begging me for money at every turn, or is like some slot machine.
MMO's are different in the fact people want to play them long term Years. in this instance a P2P model is far cheaper. Not everyone wants to game hop endlessly every month. that would be 1 thing that is different about MMO's.
which is why some prefer P2P as F2P spendy if you want to play more than a couple months
Who? Certainly not me.
And there are a lot more f2p players than sub-only. The average retention of a f2p MMO is like what, 4 months? That tells me people don't want to spend years in the same game.
Yeah, if I have a moral standing I actually stick to it. And no, that is not a religious statement. I will not support any company in any field if they show themselves to be harmful, uncaring or screw people over in a big way. They rely on people that don't give a crap or feel like they have no power to change things.
Sony may soon come off my list though, their CEO has made major changes in the way they do business and if they hold up over this next quarter I may show my support again. I used to own Sony stock for years and wouldn't mind doing so again if they get back on track.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
MMO's are different in the fact people want to play them long term Years. in this instance a P2P model is far cheaper. Not everyone wants to game hop endlessly every month. that would be 1 thing that is different about MMO's.
which is why some prefer P2P as F2P spendy if you want to play more than a couple months
Who? Certainly not me.
And there are a lot more f2p players than sub-only. The average retention of a f2p MMO is like what, 4 months? That tells me people don't want to spend years in the same game.
At least i don't.
No one but you cares what you want to play sadly.... what about the millions who want P2P are you suggesting they are wrong in wanting that because you don't?
Originally posted by crack_fox Ah sweet subscription! How I've missed you. I know I've been unfaithful, but all those tarty F2Ps I dallied with never meant anything to me, really. They were just dirty distractions, a flock of flimsy floozies who kept pestering me for money. I don't even remember their names...
MMO's are different in the fact people want to play them long term Years. in this instance a P2P model is far cheaper. Not everyone wants to game hop endlessly every month. that would be 1 thing that is different about MMO's.
which is why some prefer P2P as F2P spendy if you want to play more than a couple months
Who? Certainly not me.
And there are a lot more f2p players than sub-only. The average retention of a f2p MMO is like what, 4 months? That tells me people don't want to spend years in the same game.
At least i don't.
No one but you cares what you want to play sadly.... what about the millions who want P2P are you suggesting they are wrong in wanting that because you don't?
Well, given the market produces a lot of games catering to my preferences, i would say i am not alone.
But about those who want p2p .. i suggest nothing. You stated a preference seemingly for everyone. I want to point out that it is not true for me, and many others.
There is no "right" or "wrong" in preferences. They just are.
Yeah, if I have a moral standing I actually stick to it. And no, that is not a religious statement. I will not support any company in any field if they show themselves to be harmful, uncaring or screw people over in a big way. They rely on people that don't give a crap or feel like they have no power to change things.
Really? If you find out a pharmaceutical company is "uncaring" (i doubt any of them are caring), you are going to stop taking medicine if you get sick?
Do you stop driving too if all the car companies are "uncaring"?
F2P is popular because especially the very young crowd dont want to spend money and the hypocritical marketing term "free" attracts more players. There is already a generation around who dont know quality and maybe dont care about it. This has also something to do with the average age in such games, which is lower in comparison to the early 2000´s. These are more uncritical and manipulable consumers.
It seems some kind of "throw away mentality" did establish, game hoppers who just wait for the next release without the aim to build a long term community and to stick with one game for longer. They want to consume everything now and quickly almost like watching a movie, they dont have the patient and dont want invest time, after some months or weeks the next game is already waiting for them.
Yes, crazy to think that people do not like a business model for mmos that require 'whales' to subsidize their gaming....I find it dishonest
What is so dishonest about it?
It is a free world.
devs choose their business models.
Whales choose to pay.
I choose not to pay.
No gun is hold to anyone's head.
I find it a great system.
How about not fair to all players, maybe a better word choice. I didn't say people shouldn't play....But I prefer to play something that is 'fair' to all equally, and doesn't scale depending on how much you want to spend or not spend.
I think non-mmos do f2p better than most mmos, so I speak of mmos only, as non-mmos do not have as much ongoing development and other things.
Yes, crazy to think that people do not like a business model for mmos that require 'whales' to subsidize their gaming....I find it dishonest
What is so dishonest about it?
It is a free world.
devs choose their business models.
Whales choose to pay.
I choose not to pay.
No gun is hold to anyone's head.
I find it a great system.
How about not fair to all players, maybe a better word choice. I didn't say people shouldn't play....But I prefer to play something that is 'fair' to all equally, and doesn't scale depending on how much you want to spend or not spend.
I think non-mmos do f2p better than most mmos, so I speak of mmos only, as non-mmos do not have as much ongoing development and other things.
ah ... that is a more interesting discussion.
What is "fair"? I think it is reasonable fair when
a) your dollar is as good as my dollar,
b) shouldn't the one who subsidize your game get more virtual stuff?
What is "fair" can be subjective too.
And why non-MMOs do f2p better? If you play a MMO solo, wouldn't it be the same?
Yeah, if I have a moral standing I actually stick to it. And no, that is not a religious statement. I will not support any company in any field if they show themselves to be harmful, uncaring or screw people over in a big way. They rely on people that don't give a crap or feel like they have no power to change things.
Really? If you find out a pharmaceutical company is "uncaring" (i doubt any of them are caring), you are going to stop taking medicine if you get sick?
Do you stop driving too if all the car companies are "uncaring"?
1. Generics, a ton of companies make them and are available.
2. Thankfully the auto industry is not limited to the big dealers anymore and I will be driving a Model X (signature) early next year, order has been placed since early this year. Musk for president 2016!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
MMO's are different in the fact people want to play them long term Years. in this instance a P2P model is far cheaper. Not everyone wants to game hop endlessly every month. that would be 1 thing that is different about MMO's.
which is why some prefer P2P as F2P spendy if you want to play more than a couple months
Who? Certainly not me.
And there are a lot more f2p players than sub-only. The average retention of a f2p MMO is like what, 4 months? That tells me people don't want to spend years in the same game.
At least i don't.
No one but you cares what you want to play sadly.... what about the millions who want P2P are you suggesting they are wrong in wanting that because you don't?
Well, given the market produces a lot of games catering to my preferences, i would say i am not alone.
But about those who want p2p .. i suggest nothing. You stated a preference seemingly for everyone. I want to point out that it is not true for me, and many others.
There is no "right" or "wrong" in preferences. They just are.
The idea that devs are catering to you is asinine, you have stated many times you don't spend any money on F2P. Devs could care less if you play or not. I stated a preference that is obvious Millions play P2P games, yes there are more F2P games but there life span is shorter and rely on there being many.
No one said there should be no F2P games.... look at the title of this thread........ The argument is there should be no P2P
Yes, crazy to think that people do not like a business model for mmos that require 'whales' to subsidize their gaming....I find it dishonest
What is so dishonest about it?
It is a free world.
devs choose their business models.
Whales choose to pay.
I choose not to pay.
No gun is hold to anyone's head.
I find it a great system.
How about not fair to all players, maybe a better word choice. I didn't say people shouldn't play....But I prefer to play something that is 'fair' to all equally, and doesn't scale depending on how much you want to spend or not spend.
I think non-mmos do f2p better than most mmos, so I speak of mmos only, as non-mmos do not have as much ongoing development and other things.
ah ... that is a more interesting discussion.
What is "fair"? I think it is reasonable fair when
a) your dollar is as good as my dollar,
b) shouldn't the one who subsidize your game get more virtual stuff?
What is "fair" can be subjective too.
And why non-MMOs do f2p better? If you play a MMO solo, wouldn't it be the same?
Well in P2P, everyone is subsidizing the game, so no need for the whale, if the P2P has a cosmetic shop, then the whale is a visual whale with no game play advantage.
As for playing a mmo solo, then it kind of defeats the purpose of the mmo imo. A true solo player game would probably, and I would say usually give you a better gaming experience, because they do not have the restrictions and constraints of having to make things work for a massive multiplayer game.
As for why non-mmos do f2p better, look at LoL, they have a couple boards to play on, nothing fancy, and the game play content comes out super slow, even the graphic enhancement stuff came out very slow. They do come out with champions at a good pace, but this is where they make their money, and ignore that usually when a champion comes out it is overpowered, to make people want it more....You can buy xp boosters and such, but I generally find in LoL that stuff is a waste, as it is so easy to get your runes and such.... So someone paying money in LoL, I view it as they can have more champions basically, it doesn't confer more advantage over someone with the same champion.... LoL has a 'cap' that is easy to get to. So using LoL as an example, I find that if you chose to pay in it, verse paying in a mmo, you do not gain as much, and LoL also due to their lower development, they do not have to sell bag space and other annoying things, that f2p mmos often do.
This is all my opinion, and I know you approach and play mmos way differently than I do, f2p works great for you, not so much for me.
Why do they even try or bother with P2P, why not make it B2P at release. Most likely all of the new mmorpgs that are P2P will go over to B2P or F2P in a few months. No one wants to pay monthly for a game, there's a few who would but those are a minority and the majority wins every time and still developers want P2P. For what reason?
They get players that like P2P and drain money from them. Then, when those people get bored with the game, they change the model to F2P, so they can start draining money from you. It is just clever bussiness strategy but you must be also clever to notice it.
Should be more like 2013 is P2P. Companies are in business for one reason. To make money. They are going to make the customers happy who pay them the most money.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
Originally posted by Briansho Should be more like 2013 is P2P. Companies are in business for one reason. To make money. They are going to make the customers happy who pay them the most money.
So what you are saying is that they should be going F2P, actual F2P with an outstanding Eastern style cash shop.
I agree.
Quick, someone go full circle and act like Asian F2P games don't make more than every sub MMO other than WoW so the thread can go another dozen pages with rehashed arguments.
If you are not WoW, F2P is the only smart choice for steady revenue, so fire your western boxed in company heads and bring in someone that has a clue about the reason why F2P is making more money in the east.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Originally posted by c0exist mmorp's are thousands of hours of entertainment (at least they are supposed to be) what sense does it make for it to be b2p which is the same method as a single player console game which gives you 40 hours at best. Yes people dont WANT to pay a monthly sub in theory but to have a well oiled game you play for years and call home thats the way it must be.
Key phrase right there. They are supposed to be thousand sof hours of entertainment and thats why you pay monthly, to keep those hours coming and coming and coming. That doesnt exist anymore. Why? because now you pay to have thousands of hours of doing the same thing over and over and over to get some pieces of gear. So you actually did beat the game (like a 40 hour single player game) when you hit level cap and ran every dungeon once. But hey, they want to make you believe the game is not finished, so you can keep paying and they keep giving you the same thing over and over and over and you fall for it.
They dont literally give you thousands or even hundreds of hours of entertainment, They give you a few hours and YOU prolong those hours making it a grind to justify the money you are paying. And the company keep giving you that same old same old because they see you keep falling for that nonsense. If they didnt trick you into paying for constant grind, you would end up with a Buy to Play game where you purchase the mmo and beat the entire game during the first free month, then move on. Which is a lot better than being nickle and dimed every month for the same content with different skins with every update patch. Thats not worth the money they want from you every month.
Originally posted by Briansho Should be more like 2013 is P2P. Companies are in business for one reason. To make money. They are going to make the customers happy who pay them the most money.
So what you are saying is that they should be going F2P, actual F2P with an outstanding Eastern style cash shop.
I agree.
Quick, someone go full circle and act like Asian F2P games don't make more than every sub MMO other than WoW so the thread can go another dozen pages with rehashed arguments.
If you are not WoW, F2P is the only smart choice for steady revenue, so fire your western boxed in company heads and bring in someone that has a clue about the reason why F2P is making more money in the east.
You are ignoring the obvious:
What works in the west doesnt usually work in the east. Aion and Lineage are huge there, in the west, even as f2p, they are unpopular.
Comments
MMO shooters and MOBAs are a different breed than MMORPGs.
For the htree upcoming p2p games, they wont live or die by the sub model, they will live or die by the game quality. A game cant be mediocre (unless its something unique that you cant get elsewhere) and make it as a sub game.
Not really different enough for me. Personally i don't care about the MMO label that much. it is just a label.
It is not like i would choose a game based on whether it is a MMO or not.
wow .. you care about that?
Personally i only evaluate if a game is fun (for me) or not. I wouldn't care who produces it, or why. It does not affect my enjoyment.
In fact, Dead Space is a great game (to me). So it is produced by EA. I don't really care. So you don't think you are missing out. That is your choice.
But i know for a fact that i am missing out, if i boycott companies. So i don't.
I have more than enough beta experience to place full judgment, which wasn't far from my opinion gained from the information released publically which pointed to a game in TES name only and enhanced further from the poor animations, story and combat gained by testing.
The game is of an IP with no monthly rental fees and on top of it, doesn't resemble the IP itself, isn't even doing it graphically!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
MMO's are different in the fact people want to play them long term Years. in this instance a P2P model is far cheaper. Not everyone wants to game hop endlessly every month. that would be 1 thing that is different about MMO's.
which is why some prefer P2P as F2P spendy if you want to play more than a couple months
P2P???
2013???
Yes, crazy to think that people do not like a business model for mmos that require 'whales' to subsidize their gaming....I find it dishonest, and while I have plenty of money, I would rather pay a sub, the same as the other people, and then have everything 100% equal to all in a mmo. I like things to be fair, it isn't about the money, as most mmos I wouldn't play if it had no cash shop and was f2p... I value my time more than feeling something is free, and I need to play it.
Hopefully p2p mmos will learn to not push the limit, and if they must have a shop, keep it cosmetic only, no sense in being p2p, but still run a f2p cash shop basically....Those titles can go b2p/f2p or out of business as far as I am concerned.
Hopefully SoE is paying attention and EQN does P2P (landmark wont be, but plenty of time before EQN is out). I dislike playing a game that is begging me for money at every turn, or is like some slot machine.
Who? Certainly not me.
And there are a lot more f2p players than sub-only. The average retention of a f2p MMO is like what, 4 months? That tells me people don't want to spend years in the same game.
At least i don't.
What is so dishonest about it?
It is a free world.
devs choose their business models.
Whales choose to pay.
I choose not to pay.
No gun is hold to anyone's head.
I find it a great system.
Yeah, if I have a moral standing I actually stick to it. And no, that is not a religious statement. I will not support any company in any field if they show themselves to be harmful, uncaring or screw people over in a big way. They rely on people that don't give a crap or feel like they have no power to change things.
Sony may soon come off my list though, their CEO has made major changes in the way they do business and if they hold up over this next quarter I may show my support again. I used to own Sony stock for years and wouldn't mind doing so again if they get back on track.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
No one but you cares what you want to play sadly.... what about the millions who want P2P are you suggesting they are wrong in wanting that because you don't?
Lol
Well, given the market produces a lot of games catering to my preferences, i would say i am not alone.
But about those who want p2p .. i suggest nothing. You stated a preference seemingly for everyone. I want to point out that it is not true for me, and many others.
There is no "right" or "wrong" in preferences. They just are.
Really? If you find out a pharmaceutical company is "uncaring" (i doubt any of them are caring), you are going to stop taking medicine if you get sick?
Do you stop driving too if all the car companies are "uncaring"?
This is my view on the F2P game genre:
F2P is popular because especially the very young crowd dont want to spend money and the hypocritical marketing term "free" attracts more players. There is already a generation around who dont know quality and maybe dont care about it. This has also something to do with the average age in such games, which is lower in comparison to the early 2000´s. These are more uncritical and manipulable consumers.
It seems some kind of "throw away mentality" did establish, game hoppers who just wait for the next release without the aim to build a long term community and to stick with one game for longer. They want to consume everything now and quickly almost like watching a movie, they dont have the patient and dont want invest time, after some months or weeks the next game is already waiting for them.
How about not fair to all players, maybe a better word choice. I didn't say people shouldn't play....But I prefer to play something that is 'fair' to all equally, and doesn't scale depending on how much you want to spend or not spend.
I think non-mmos do f2p better than most mmos, so I speak of mmos only, as non-mmos do not have as much ongoing development and other things.
ah ... that is a more interesting discussion.
What is "fair"? I think it is reasonable fair when
a) your dollar is as good as my dollar,
b) shouldn't the one who subsidize your game get more virtual stuff?
What is "fair" can be subjective too.
And why non-MMOs do f2p better? If you play a MMO solo, wouldn't it be the same?
1. Generics, a ton of companies make them and are available.
2. Thankfully the auto industry is not limited to the big dealers anymore and I will be driving a Model X (signature) early next year, order has been placed since early this year. Musk for president 2016!
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
The idea that devs are catering to you is asinine, you have stated many times you don't spend any money on F2P. Devs could care less if you play or not. I stated a preference that is obvious Millions play P2P games, yes there are more F2P games but there life span is shorter and rely on there being many.
No one said there should be no F2P games.... look at the title of this thread........ The argument is there should be no P2P
Well in P2P, everyone is subsidizing the game, so no need for the whale, if the P2P has a cosmetic shop, then the whale is a visual whale with no game play advantage.
As for playing a mmo solo, then it kind of defeats the purpose of the mmo imo. A true solo player game would probably, and I would say usually give you a better gaming experience, because they do not have the restrictions and constraints of having to make things work for a massive multiplayer game.
As for why non-mmos do f2p better, look at LoL, they have a couple boards to play on, nothing fancy, and the game play content comes out super slow, even the graphic enhancement stuff came out very slow. They do come out with champions at a good pace, but this is where they make their money, and ignore that usually when a champion comes out it is overpowered, to make people want it more....You can buy xp boosters and such, but I generally find in LoL that stuff is a waste, as it is so easy to get your runes and such.... So someone paying money in LoL, I view it as they can have more champions basically, it doesn't confer more advantage over someone with the same champion.... LoL has a 'cap' that is easy to get to. So using LoL as an example, I find that if you chose to pay in it, verse paying in a mmo, you do not gain as much, and LoL also due to their lower development, they do not have to sell bag space and other annoying things, that f2p mmos often do.
This is all my opinion, and I know you approach and play mmos way differently than I do, f2p works great for you, not so much for me.
They get players that like P2P and drain money from them. Then, when those people get bored with the game, they change the model to F2P, so they can start draining money from you. It is just clever bussiness strategy but you must be also clever to notice it.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
So what you are saying is that they should be going F2P, actual F2P with an outstanding Eastern style cash shop.
I agree.
Quick, someone go full circle and act like Asian F2P games don't make more than every sub MMO other than WoW so the thread can go another dozen pages with rehashed arguments.
If you are not WoW, F2P is the only smart choice for steady revenue, so fire your western boxed in company heads and bring in someone that has a clue about the reason why F2P is making more money in the east.
I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson
Yet the 2004 MMO that did survive has more subs and active players than all of the F2P and B2P MMOs that came after.
James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?
Key phrase right there. They are supposed to be thousand sof hours of entertainment and thats why you pay monthly, to keep those hours coming and coming and coming. That doesnt exist anymore. Why? because now you pay to have thousands of hours of doing the same thing over and over and over to get some pieces of gear. So you actually did beat the game (like a 40 hour single player game) when you hit level cap and ran every dungeon once. But hey, they want to make you believe the game is not finished, so you can keep paying and they keep giving you the same thing over and over and over and you fall for it.
They dont literally give you thousands or even hundreds of hours of entertainment, They give you a few hours and YOU prolong those hours making it a grind to justify the money you are paying. And the company keep giving you that same old same old because they see you keep falling for that nonsense. If they didnt trick you into paying for constant grind, you would end up with a Buy to Play game where you purchase the mmo and beat the entire game during the first free month, then move on. Which is a lot better than being nickle and dimed every month for the same content with different skins with every update patch. Thats not worth the money they want from you every month.
You are ignoring the obvious:
What works in the west doesnt usually work in the east. Aion and Lineage are huge there, in the west, even as f2p, they are unpopular.