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Help me understand the pvp crowd

13

Comments

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550


    Originally posted by Mandible
    Honestly, if you have to even ask this question....... Then you just wont get it, no matter how well its explained here. You really need to play a game with real risk to understand how ow pvp enhances the experience and makes the world truly come alive. 


    Probably true. PvP requires a very thick skin and persistence in the face of adversity. Not everyone's cup of tea. My only beef with PVP is the amount of hacking that occurs nowadays.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • WW4BWWW4BW Member UncommonPosts: 501
    Originally posted by Arclan

     


    Originally posted by Mandible
    Honestly, if you have to even ask this question....... Then you just wont get it, no matter how well its explained here. You really need to play a game with real risk to understand how ow pvp enhances the experience and makes the world truly come alive. 

     


    Probably true. PvP requires a very thick skin and persistence in the face of adversity. Not everyone's cup of tea. My only beef with PVP is the amount of hacking that occurs nowadays.

      Hacking?.. are you talking about DDOS attacks, packet sniffing, or something completly different? In my experience people have been hacking games since before UO. Granted the tools for hacking seem to have become more accessible lately. But it is nothing new. And people have hacked for PvE purposes in the past as well.

  • ArclanArclan Member UncommonPosts: 1,550


    Originally posted by WW4BW
    ... the tools for hacking seem to have become more accessible lately.


    Exactly my point.

    Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
    In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit

  • DarkcrystalDarkcrystal Member UncommonPosts: 963
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by Phynn
    I didn't mean to say that the majority of pvp'rs gank or grief but having OWPVP breeds those who do... and makes playing the game for us who don't care for it very frustrating.

    see post above. FFA pvp deters griefing imo.

    Umm you can grief in PVE games today, so don't even start this crap,  I always defended weaker players with games with FFA PVP,  PVP brings another element, many players are tired of the boring AI, so we like a challenge . 

  • PAL-18PAL-18 Member UncommonPosts: 844
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    Originally posted by PAL-18
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah
    Originally posted by PAL-18

    Vov,first you say thats its "carebear" to wear uber gear and now that its "carebear" to play with no armor.

    And i was at vanilla and our battles were more like 50 vs 50 or more.

    Its is a tactic to wear right gear in right situation.

    + in some heavy weight games you need to work hard to get them,without friends you wont be able to do that,with right amount of money ,perhaps, choose your "tactic" wisely. 

     

      In a game where uber gear is a damn near requirement, to have one class that doesnt have to follow that rule is a bit odd wouldnt you say.  Also wearing gear isnt a tactic in MMORPGs today.  If lighter armor gave you more movement speed, then gear choices open up, but this doesnt happen. Gear is dumbed down in most games to the point where you have 1 set to work for.

     PvEing to get gear so you can PvP, I wouldnt call that working hard. This is why I dont enjoy gear based games, it just leads to bad players in good gear losing fights to evenly matched opponents, so they leave and go find less geared players to fight.

    Sure its not in "todays" games but the problem is that "todays" games plays like that 1 level rogue pretty much.

    Everybody spamming just couple buttons , there is even less "tactics" now ,i agree completely but why it is like that today ?

    well my answer is that devs tries to make it so that everybody could get their chance to feel like Clazzi.

     

      The less abilities they give us, the easier it is to balance.  Also notice how we get little choice in how our character develops.  I would be happy having 10 slots for abilities with me getting to choose what goes there, including passives.  You could create a character with 4 abilities, 2 buffs, 1 heal, 3 passives or you could go with 10 abilities.  I like having that kind of choice. I would love to be able to decrease the effective damage of an ability to give it either more range, lower cooldown, tack on a spreadheal, or whatever.  MMORPG's are becoming less and less about choice and more about strict linear design.

     Guildwars 2 was such a damn letdown. I prefer GW1 character design philosophy by far.  GW1 let you choose your abilities which let you develop your own tactics and style of fighting.

    Sure no problem.

    but.

    In games like that half of the combat is just done in advance and character building should be just as hard and skill based as PVP or PvE can possibly be in worst case scenario.

    which is pretty hard to define :)

     

    So, did ESO have a successful launch? Yes, yes it did.By Ryan Getchell on April 02, 2014.
    **On the radar: http://www.cyberpunk.net/ **

  • AxehiltAxehilt Member RarePosts: 10,504
    Originally posted by g0m0rrah 

     WoW is the most carebear game in existence, especially for pvp.  Remember World of Roguecraft?  The guy runs around with no armor and a 1-2 damage dagger and rapes people.  Sounds awful carebear that in a game that is 100% about gear, your the only class that can easily drop people with no gear.

     I remember vanilla WoW, which was actually decent for world pvp.  20 v 20 fights at south shore were a blast. Then after BC, that ended that. 20 v 20 fights would end up with 1 max level guy with retarded gear coming in and ruining it.  I remember playing a hunter back in vanilla. Hunter traps affected you no matter the level as well as most of your abilities. That of course changed because people moaned " i am level 60, a level 30 shouldnt be able to hit me", yea, thats carebear shit.

    WoW is also notorious for being macro friendly.  When someone can run around pressing 1 button and dominate people, I find it hard to label that  "skilled".

    Now Counter Strike is a completely different genre, but even CS can be awful carebear. If I dominate you I get better weapons making it even easier to dominate you. So the people that lack skill will also lack the equipment needed to compete...

     Give me a game where tactics are as valuable as skill and gear. Where the underdog has a chance and isnt simply a guaranteed kill.

    To call WOW "most carebear" is excessive.

    WOW is clearly less casual than many other "PVP" MMORPGs, because most PVP happens in pop-constrained environment (BGs, Arenas).  Gear is still a factor, so it's not 100% serious by any stretch, but it's more serious than open world PVP games.

    "What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Member Posts: 906

    Open world pvp is what makes mmorpgs different than "games". The games will always do instance pvp better. Or any "gamey" system for that matter.

    MMORPGS are the best at offering an experience. Open world pvp is an experience.

    It's the pve crowd that don't make sense in today's mmorpgs. What are you even doing anymore?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • TheRealBanangoTheRealBanango Member UncommonPosts: 89
    Originally posted by FinalFikus

    Open world pvp is what makes mmorpgs different than "games". The games will always do instance pvp better. Or any "gamey" system for that matter.

    MMORPGS are the best at offering an experience. Open world pvp is an experience.

    It's the pve crowd that don't make sense in today's mmorpgs. What are you even doing anymore?

    lol at the last sentence. Never understood pve either :)

    I only like to pvp, I pve to make myself better at pvp. For me open world pvp and ffa pvp offer me complete freedom to do as i please, and for me, this is where my fun comes. Back in my WoW days, I was the guy constantly setting up a raid on Sentinel Hill, which later turned into a raid on Stormwind. I did this countless times. After awhile the alliance knew who I was, they knew I lead the charge every time. These experiences are the ones i long for in MMOs nowadays, and this type of experiences cannot be replicated in pve.

    Like the OP said, he plays games as an escape. In MMORPGs I play the bad guy. In real life I can't because I have morals. In games however I can throw morality out the window in return for thrills, that is my escape.

    But to answer the question of having 1 server instead of 2...It is required because it grants immersion into a world. Its what makes the game an RPG and not just an MMO, the fact that you have players all wanting different things, all playing the game how they want. It gives structure to the game by having players fill all the roles availible the game has to offer. Think of it like a ying yang :)

  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 Member Posts: 2,735
    When pvp is structured there are no surprises and everything eventually becomes repetitive.
  • nerovipus32nerovipus32 Member Posts: 2,735
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Originally posted by xeniar

    derailing abit but as we have PvPer atention now.

    uhm im looking for a game like this: OWPVP (not full loot) wich has some sort of jail system or whatever, If you kill someone you have to mean it. Is wushu the only thing or are there more?

    Wushu. It's the best pvp on the market. A real shame it's not made by blizzard.

    If it was made by blizzard it wouldn't have the features that it currently has, you can bet on that.

  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    The only PVP game i really play is Planetside 2, i don't think games that mix PVE and PVP really do PVP all that well, too much split focus. Plus, i don't think any game that is gear or level based is really all that suited to PVP either, it really should be about tactics and ability, not who has the biggest +4 Sword of mass domination... image
  • BunnykingBunnyking Member UncommonPosts: 126
    Originally posted by jdlamson75

    My first experiences with open world PvP were with WoW.  Unforgettable were those vanilla days of Crossroads, Tarren Mill, and Southshore raids.  It would start off with a few little grief kills, then escalate into holy crap fun once the higher level reinforcements were called in.  There was really nothing to lose except pride, and even then, in defeat, there was still that nifty little adrenaline rush and the aforementioned holy crap fun.

     

    That's why, to this day, I like ffa-ish pvp.  It's just damn fun.

    Funny. I went through the exact same experiences, but perceived them quite different:

     

    It was an interruption of my questing. Usually it would basically lock down an entire quest hub. Very irritating.

    Also; the lag. Oh god the lag. In the worst cases the server even went down and noone was able to play until it was reset. 

    I have nothing but bad memories about open world pvp in those days and I still hate it with a vengeance.

    I do NOT need adrenaline while playing a game. I play to have fun, to relax, to admire a well crafted virtual world. Not to have my gameplay interrupted by sadistic 13 year olds.

  • QuirhidQuirhid Member UncommonPosts: 6,230
    Originally posted by nerovipus32
    When pvp is structured there are no surprises and everything eventually becomes repetitive.

    Thats true for open world PvP as well. Sometimes a gank is more likely, sometimes less, but a gank,is just a gank, is just a gank nevertheless.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • SkilialSkilial Member Posts: 30
    Originally posted by Bunnyking
    Originally posted by jdlamson75

    My first experiences with open world PvP were with WoW.  Unforgettable were those vanilla days of Crossroads, Tarren Mill, and Southshore raids.  It would start off with a few little grief kills, then escalate into holy crap fun once the higher level reinforcements were called in.  There was really nothing to lose except pride, and even then, in defeat, there was still that nifty little adrenaline rush and the aforementioned holy crap fun.

     

    That's why, to this day, I like ffa-ish pvp.  It's just damn fun.

    Funny. I went through the exact same experiences, but perceived them quite different:

     

    It was an interruption of my questing. Usually it would basically lock down an entire quest hub. Very irritating.

    Also; the lag. Oh god the lag. In the worst cases the server even went down and noone was able to play until it was reset. 

    I have nothing but bad memories about open world pvp in those days and I still hate it with a vengeance.

    I do NOT need adrenaline while playing a game. I play to have fun, to relax, to admire a well crafted virtual world. Not to have my gameplay interrupted by sadistic 13 year olds.

    Some people play video games to relax. Others play it to compete. The OP asked what makes OWPVP fun.

    It is quite simple. Some people love dominating other people. This is why we have gangs, mobsters, and S&M clubs. It isn't always about getting something material. It is that primal instinct to subdue someone else, or pester the hell out of them. Don't tell me you are above "pushing someone's buttons." We all have those moments. OWPVP allows people to do just that with relatively little consequence. Yes, the person getting griefed may be having a bad time, but it isn't the end of the world. In real life, real griefing leads to bad things like arguing, a broken nose or jail time. Besides QQ, OWPVP leads to unscripted mayhem, learning how to play your class, and sometimes new friends (and nemeses).

    OWPVP is fine as long as you have the choice. I love how Blizzard handled the choice. PvP Servers are the easy answer. Personally, I chose PvE server for the same reason, BUT I would sometimes toggle on PvP to bait guys into ganking situations.

    OWPVP adds to realism in fantasy games. AI is too predictable. How can it feel like the world is at war when the only time opposite factions fight is in instanced, hyper-controlled environments?

  • PhelcherPhelcher Member CommonPosts: 1,053
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Example, today, some clown was trolling me about an incident he knew nothing about, heck the guy didn't even know me (obviously), just my name. He was not a friend, yet he thought that it was "ok" to F with me. I warned him, he continued. I killed him in front of about 20 other people, and told him "don't act like you know me."  

     

    The irony is that he knows me a lot better now ;) This is the beauty of FFA pvp.

     

    You didn't kill him...   you didn't stop him...   you just belayed him for 10 minutes..

    Until death means something, establishing your "turf" means very little... since they can pop back up and be in your face. All you did is feel good about yourself in a social environment, in front of others.

     

     

    PvP in MMORPG's is a tertiary dynamic. Those who make it the whole game are kids who want to prey on people. Gank them.. because they themselves, are unsuitable for fair play. These greifers do so, because they are no good in actual action games and pure PvP games like Battlefield 3, etc..

    I encounter this 1st hand 10 years ago, attending a multi-guild gathering. And saw people and how they played and what they relied on and what drove them. Funny thing is, once you put a noted "ganker" in the arena and duel him... he rage-quits because he cannot hold a candle to a real opponent. These Kids got soo frustrated @ my belittleing of him with my non-pvp character..  he left the party.

     

    He wanted to be the best and had to be confronted in front of a couple hundred people, that he was only a ganker... with no real skills.

     

     

    Otherwise, he would be playing Battlefield, instead of a MMO..

    "No they are not charity. That is where the whales come in. (I play for free. Whales pays.) Devs get a business. That is how it works."


    -Nariusseldon

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Member Posts: 906
    Originally posted by Phelcher
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Example, today, some clown was trolling me about an incident he knew nothing about, heck the guy didn't even know me (obviously), just my name. He was not a friend, yet he thought that it was "ok" to F with me. I warned him, he continued. I killed him in front of about 20 other people, and told him "don't act like you know me."  

     

    The irony is that he knows me a lot better now ;) This is the beauty of FFA pvp.

     . Funny thing is, once you put a noted "ganker" in the arena and duel him... he rage-quits because he cannot hold a candle to a real opponent. These Kids got soo frustrated @ my belittleing of him with my non-pvp character..  he left the party.

     

    Developers know that they quit too.

    When a hardcore player gets beat down the same way they beat down others they lose all motivation to play. That's up to half of your players.  That's why theres no open world pvp anymore. They must protect their hardcore.

    I don't know really, just joking around.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • Kingmob23Kingmob23 Member UncommonPosts: 78
    Originally posted by Phynn

    Let me start by saying that I do pvp, when it is organized or structured. In numerous games I have logged in and pvp'd til I logged off. Structured pvp, at least for me, can be fun and your working towards and a common goal that could result in unique gear, buffs for you faction, titles and achievements. What is perplexing is the need for open ffa pvp. I mean what's the point? 

         I play games to escape reality, immerse myself in a fantasy world where RL problems can be forgotten, if even just for a moment. Why does the pvp crowd insist on having OWPVP in games. As far as I have seen what is the reward? In structured pvp at least your working towards the titles, gear, achievements whatever whereas in OWPVP what is the ultimate goal? As I have seen there isn't any ultimate goal... unless you count the ability to grief other players a goal.

         In all the games I have ever played I have VERY RARELY seen OWPVP be beneficial. Its always some high level player exacting punishment on a low level player or under skilled player. Its seems to me that OWPVP is just a measuring stick for epeens.

         Why cant we have a ffa OWPVP server and a structured pvp PVE server, like most games do it? This way you hardcore pvp'rs can gank each other til your heats content while never forcing your gameplay on us who care not to OWPVP. Please tell me what you proponents of OWPVP really need with ffa PVP on every server? Cant you guys just get on your own server and duke it out? I am asking because I really do not see why you feel the need to include us players who prefer spvp and pve content in your gameplay style. help me understand. Take care and Happy Hunting.

    Actually your point of high levels extracting punishment on low level players is why I like opvp. Questing and grinding as a means to level is so easy and trivial that the threat of getting ganked by someone many levels above me is the only thing that keeps me on my toes and alert. Figuring out how to level without catching the notice of a ganker is one of the only things I have as any form of a challenge to leveling.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Phynn
    bcbully i can see where it could deter some griefing but aside from that what is the benefit of having a game where all servers are OWPVP? Cant we let the pvp'rs have their own place to knock each other around and leave us that don't care for it alone?

    You ask that as if the MMO market wasn't already dominated by PvE games. If you don't want to play OWPVP, you can play one of the hundred or so titles that don't have it, right?

    Or are you suggesting that games designed for OWPVP should also support a separate ruleset for PvE players who want to play them?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • lafaiellafaiel Member UncommonPosts: 93
    Originally posted by Phynn
    I know that it is a niche market but I see numerous fanbois of OWPVP posting here pleading with game devs to have it in upcoming releases. I am just asking what's the point? What's the reward?

    The reward for them Phynn, is they get to destroy another game  before moving on to the next, they clamor for more games to have it because they most likely destroyed the current game they are playing and are looking for fresh meat to grief.

       You have to remember, these people play a different game from us, thier idea of fun is to make sure that YOU don't have any, take aion for example, just a handful of players managed to drive off thousands of players and brought the game to its knees.  When they do what they do and drive off the easy prey they are left only with people that are looking for a fight but they don't want that, they want easy targets so they cry for other games to add FFA pvp so they can move on.

      A lot of these people don't have much going on in thier lives or come from broken homes so they don't know how to get along with others well so they are normally shunned in pve centric games, quite a few of them are normally bullied in school so they want to take thier frustrations out on normal people that just want to relax and enjoy a game, but most game designers are cutting them out of thier game because they've watched thier destructive behavior destroy all thier hard work.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Phynn
    bcbully i can see where it could deter some griefing but aside from that what is the benefit of having a game where all servers are OWPVP? Cant we let the pvp'rs have their own place to knock each other around and leave us that don't care for it alone?

    You ask that as if the MMO market wasn't already dominated by PvE games. If you don't want to play OWPVP, you can play one of the hundred or so titles that don't have it, right?

    Or are you suggesting that games designed for OWPVP should also support a separate ruleset for PvE players who want to play them?

    Actually, both ways are valid. Most "PvE centric" MMOs also have a PvP component... the opposite can work too, as it already worked in the past... not to mention the PvE crowd is the vast majority of the player base, making it a huge source of income to use to create content for the game.

    Yourself work for a PvP game with quite strong PvE components. Actually the most (if not only) successful PvP centric game.

    Agreed, which is why I ask the questions above. It seems he's asking that devs with games offering OWPVP create a separate PVE server.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by Phynn

    Let me start by saying that I do pvp, when it is organized or structured. In numerous games I have logged in and pvp'd til I logged off. Structured pvp, at least for me, can be fun and your working towards and a common goal that could result in unique gear, buffs for you faction, titles and achievements. What is perplexing is the need for open ffa pvp. I mean what's the point? 

         I play games to escape reality, immerse myself in a fantasy world where RL problems can be forgotten, if even just for a moment. Why does the pvp crowd insist on having OWPVP in games. As far as I have seen what is the reward? In structured pvp at least your working towards the titles, gear, achievements whatever whereas in OWPVP what is the ultimate goal? As I have seen there isn't any ultimate goal... unless you count the ability to grief other players a goal.

         In all the games I have ever played I have VERY RARELY seen OWPVP be beneficial. Its always some high level player exacting punishment on a low level player or under skilled player. Its seems to me that OWPVP is just a measuring stick for epeens.

         Why cant we have a ffa OWPVP server and a structured pvp PVE server, like most games do it? This way you hardcore pvp'rs can gank each other til your heats content while never forcing your gameplay on us who care not to OWPVP. Please tell me what you proponents of OWPVP really need with ffa PVP on every server? Cant you guys just get on your own server and duke it out? I am asking because I really do not see why you feel the need to include us players who prefer spvp and pve content in your gameplay style. help me understand. Take care and Happy Hunting.

    I have only seen one Game that had a truly beautifully constructed and wonderfully managed open world PvP design. The game is called Kingdom of Sand. Now it is not an MMORPG. They call themselves that but truthfully they are only an MORPG (the missing M being the Massiveness that they are reasonably lacking given that the game is built on secondlife sim sets).

     

    Not only did the creators of KoS design an amazing meter based combat system (complete with a wide array of weapons that the meter utilizes, and a meter that could only be used on their sims). But, they came up with a rather brilliant style of PvP. On the meter 3 modes can be set that will display above the players head.

     

    The first mode is non-combative. Non Combatives are there for the crafting/job system and pure role play (and I mean they have back stories, family and you will be hard pressed to get them to talk OOC - Out of Character -). Non-combatives cannot attack or be attacked. They also cannot engage in RP that might reasonably lead to violence (if they do they may be asked to switch modes temporarily by a mod).

     

    The second mode is Combative mode. Combatives may engage in Combat. But only with due process. Meaning through rp they have to show cause to get into a fight (an argument gone bad, upholding someones honor etc.). And, they must give clear intent to attack IC (in character). This is for those who enjoy the daily life in the bustling city, But, I have no issues getting into a fight and holding their own if it's called for

     

    The third mode is Warrior mode. Warriors can attack others in warrior mode with out rhyme or reason. And, without notice of intent to attack. In regards to combatives they must play by combative rules though. And they must never even attmept to engage non-combatives in violent rp.

     

    Now, here is the kicker of it...Nothing physical holds them to going by what peoples tags say. The meter prevents them in no way from breaking these rules. And, all players regardless of the mode they are in must wear meters at all times...But, no one breaks these rules.

     

    Why? There are a few reasons....

    They bought that meter and their weapons for it (though the meter does come with some basic weapons people often buy additional ones that are more to their preference visually). And, they cost second life lindens (an in world currency purchasable and resale-able for real world money). A player may have spent as much as 100 dollars and as little as 20 dollars for the privilege of using the meters and weapons and role playing on that sim set (and it's asserted in their contract pre-purchase that it is in fact a privilege and not a right). And, as stated before said meters and weapons only work on their sim set. So, if they break the rules (and the mods are pretty strict about the combat rules in particular). They will be banned from use of the system and the sim set, immediately and Indefinitely.

     

    The items the bought are non-transferable to. So, if they were to make another secondlife account in order to get back in they would have to re-purchase everything they needed. Not to mention that often (even though free clothing can be found for this just about anywhere) players have spent at least 20 dollars buying parts for their various rp related outfits.After all this to even be considered for serious play you need to make a character. That involves picking an decent name for the setting, trying to establish relationships such as family or faction ties, writing out a back story (which is published in a profile for you on their website)

     

    In short if they broke the rules and got banned. It can be a flat financial and time sync loss with no recourse towards recovery. It simply was not worth it to try and get away with unwarranted killings.

     

    Even so, some people would try to find a way to get around the rules. to provoke violence and get it to come off as a perfectly reasonable course of events....

     

    which brings me to another point about KoS. Combat is 90% skill based. The weapons all have the same damage, accuracy and speed for their type. Two great swords might appear radically different in terms of power. But one is just cooler looking and that is the only difference. Moreover there is no armor. A player can walk around in full platemail that they bought at some market place if they like. But, the meter won't recognize any form of armor. And, so it's just for show.

     

    The fighting is mesh based (meaning your swords mesh must physically hit the mesh of their avatar for damage to be dealt). There is no targeting or locking on. You go into first person mode, un-sheath, and literately swing your blade as you move around using your weapon to block theirs and avoiding their slashes at you (btw there is also range and magic but best bet is melee).

     

    You must actually be better at fighting then the other person to win. And some of these people have a ton of experience. The 10% of the fighting that isn't skill based is the one thing that resembles having a level...age. Characters who have more days played (counted in real time in hour increments) have more bars of health. and there is not real cap on this. I have seen some people on there who were playing everyday since it came out and their tags say 500 and their health bars show as several lines of cubes (about 15 cubes to a line and as much as 4-5 can be taken in a single hit).

     

    There are also rules about death. if you die once you need to be off-sim for at least one hour. Die a second time and your gone for 24 hours. a third is 3 days. And, if you die a fourth time they have pretty much ran out of valid reasons for you to have not actually died "but been on the brink of death and slowly recovering" or "restored by the grace of divine or demonic magic." At which point you have to (in order to keep playing on that account) come up with a new character for role play (you can still use your same account but as far as rp is concerned you must be a different person and reset your meter).

     

    Fact is, older people there know how to handle upstarts. Seniority in that game does rule. So would be trolls are kept in check as well.

     

    Other then this the only thing I have seen come close to a workable open world pvp system (if we're talking post t1-t5) was back in 2000-early 2001 of Runescape (there was a closed beta nov,-dec of 2000. that people seem to have forgotten about and is not noted any where on the net any more). When Runescape first started there was actually a mild class system (which only really determined starting gear and gave slightly better experience for practicing your class then playing outside of it).

     

    But, more pertinent, there was no wilderness (the long standing primary area for PvP). Every where was unrestricted PvP accept for the core starting city (lumbridge). The only safety in place is that a player could toggle between being a PK and non-PK (Player Killer). A Non-PK could not attack or be attacked by another player. And a PK of course could do so with other PK's. You could not switch during combat. And you could only change your mind 2 times...Since all players started as PK this meant a lot of players ended up stuck in PK eventually (it was possible with mis- clicks to change it).

     

    People started forming bands for protection. Groups typically did not want to get into it with other groups as it got real messy real quick(the penalty of death is carried item loss). And single and duo PK'ers would never be so bold. So, there was safety in numbers. But, the game ccreators did not recognize these player formed groups. The bonds were loose and ways were parted easily. And since there was only one server then. people carved out territories. the only huge battles were disputes over the imagined lines.

     

    This is also the reason why in runescape Guilds are known as clans. They were not released with the game and it was nearly 8-9 years before the company that formed from the launch of runescape officially recognized them and gave them resources and content to be organized. The clan made a lot more sense and is kept today over going with a more accurate term like guild out of tradition mainly. players never used to boast about stats. They would rattle off the names of clans they had been in and players (chieftains/leaders) they had served under as clansman. Clans had clan uniforms...Normal game items they would wear in odd pairings to show solidarity. So, while clans were still as they were and not today like more modern guilds... calling them clans made a lot more sense. The whole mindset was very akin to classic structure of clans.

     

    But this system while very barbaric with some tweaking... I could see it as workable. for sure.

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  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Member Posts: 906
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Phynn
    bcbully i can see where it could deter some griefing but aside from that what is the benefit of having a game where all servers are OWPVP? Cant we let the pvp'rs have their own place to knock each other around and leave us that don't care for it alone?

    You ask that as if the MMO market wasn't already dominated by PvE games. If you don't want to play OWPVP, you can play one of the hundred or so titles that don't have it, right?

    Or are you suggesting that games designed for OWPVP should also support a separate ruleset for PvE players who want to play them?

    Im suggesting pve players and pvp players stop labeling themselves. These are games. Progression makes everyone insane.

    There are not a pve players or a pvp players. If you allow marketers to label you, you are a dork. If you want to separate people or even remove playstyles you have lost your way.

    There is only design and the developers that control it. If you have problems with playstyles ruining your own, and nothing you can do about it. Quit.

    Don't support lazy design. Argue with the people in charge who made this mess and can fix it. Youre only helpless in owpvp by design, and its designed that way for a reason.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • HelleriHelleri Member UncommonPosts: 930
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Phynn
    bcbully i can see where it could deter some griefing but aside from that what is the benefit of having a game where all servers are OWPVP? Cant we let the pvp'rs have their own place to knock each other around and leave us that don't care for it alone?

    You ask that as if the MMO market wasn't already dominated by PvE games. If you don't want to play OWPVP, you can play one of the hundred or so titles that don't have it, right?

    Or are you suggesting that games designed for OWPVP should also support a separate ruleset for PvE players who want to play them?

    Im suggesting pve players and pvp players stop labeling themselves. These are games. Progression makes everyone insane.

    There are not a pve players or a pvp players. If you allow marketers to label you, you are a dork. If you want to separate people or even remove playstyles you have lost your way.

    There is only design and the developers that control it. If you have problems with playstyles ruining your own, and nothing you can do about it. Quit.

    Don't support lazy design. Argue with the people in charge who made this mess and can fix it. Youre only helpless in owpvp by design, and its designed that way for a reason.

    Alot of that really doesn't make much sense to me...

     

    Firstly, I don't know either way if PvP and PvE/PvM are industry originals as far as terms go. If they are player generated terminologies. Then that would not be a marketing label even if marketers use it.

     

    Secondl, there are players who are strictly into PvE/PvM or PvP and don't like the two to mix. They exist independent of the medium and I can recall such distinction in environments previous to the industry making the distinction clear in game development. Different play styles from what I have seen is what MMORPG's are all about.

     

    The fact that the same content can be experienced in different ways. And, I don't think it's fair to lay it all on developers and corporates; as being responsible for the current environment. Even in the cases that they are 'in it for the money' (which lets be honest is a good chunk of the time). In order to make money they have to give us content that we want. So, it stands to reason, that if they make a game strictly for PvP'ers; Then there are people out there who want to do only PvP and vice versa. And so the way of design has clear causality coming from the player side of things.

     

    image

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Member RarePosts: 14,247
    Originally posted by Helleri
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Phynn
    bcbully i can see where it could deter some griefing but aside from that what is the benefit of having a game where all servers are OWPVP? Cant we let the pvp'rs have their own place to knock each other around and leave us that don't care for it alone?

    You ask that as if the MMO market wasn't already dominated by PvE games. If you don't want to play OWPVP, you can play one of the hundred or so titles that don't have it, right?

    Or are you suggesting that games designed for OWPVP should also support a separate ruleset for PvE players who want to play them?

    Im suggesting pve players and pvp players stop labeling themselves. These are games. Progression makes everyone insane.

    There are not a pve players or a pvp players. If you allow marketers to label you, you are a dork. If you want to separate people or even remove playstyles you have lost your way.

    There is only design and the developers that control it. If you have problems with playstyles ruining your own, and nothing you can do about it. Quit.

    Don't support lazy design. Argue with the people in charge who made this mess and can fix it. Youre only helpless in owpvp by design, and its designed that way for a reason.

    Alot of that really doesn't make much sense to me...

    Firstly, I don't know either way if PvP and PvE/PvM are industry originals as far as terms go. If they are player generated terminologies. Then that would not be a marketing label even if marketers use it.

    Secondly, there are players who are strictly into PvE/PvM or PvP and don't like the two to mix. They exist independent of the medium and I can recall such distinction in environments previous to the industry making the distinction clear in game development. Different play styles from what I have seen is what MMORPG's are all about.

    The fact that the same content can be experienced in different ways. And, I don't think it's fair to lay it all on developers and corporates; as being responsible for the current environment. Even in the cases that they are 'in it for the money' (which lets be honest is a good chunk of the time). In order to make money they have to give us content that we want. So, it stands to reason, that if they make a game strictly for PvP'ers; Then there are people out there who want to do only PvP and vice versa. And so the way of design has clear causality coming from the player side of things.

    Word. image

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Member Posts: 906
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Helleri
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by Phynn
    bcbully i can see where it could deter some griefing but aside from that what is the benefit of having a game where all servers are OWPVP? Cant we let the pvp'rs have their own place to knock each other around and leave us that don't care for it alone?

    You ask that as if the MMO market wasn't already dominated by PvE games. If you don't want to play OWPVP, you can play one of the hundred or so titles that don't have it, right?

    Or are you suggesting that games designed for OWPVP should also support a separate ruleset for PvE players who want to play them?

    Im suggesting pve players and pvp players stop labeling themselves. These are games. Progression makes everyone insane.

    There are not a pve players or a pvp players. If you allow marketers to label you, you are a dork. If you want to separate people or even remove playstyles you have lost your way.

    There is only design and the developers that control it. If you have problems with playstyles ruining your own, and nothing you can do about it. Quit.

    Don't support lazy design. Argue with the people in charge who made this mess and can fix it. Youre only helpless in owpvp by design, and its designed that way for a reason.

    Alot of that really doesn't make much sense to me...

    Firstly, I don't know either way if PvP and PvE/PvM are industry originals as far as terms go. If they are player generated terminologies. Then that would not be a marketing label even if marketers use it.

    Secondly, there are players who are strictly into PvE/PvM or PvP and don't like the two to mix. They exist independent of the medium and I can recall such distinction in environments previous to the industry making the distinction clear in game development. Different play styles from what I have seen is what MMORPG's are all about.

    The fact that the same content can be experienced in different ways. And, I don't think it's fair to lay it all on developers and corporates; as being responsible for the current environment. Even in the cases that they are 'in it for the money' (which lets be honest is a good chunk of the time). In order to make money they have to give us content that we want. So, it stands to reason, that if they make a game strictly for PvP'ers; Then there are people out there who want to do only PvP and vice versa. And so the way of design has clear causality coming from the player side of things.

    Word. image

    So you guys think making an pure pvp or pve mmorpg is a good idea huh?  Because there are people who make the personal choice to avoid entertainment. Making a pure game into a mmorpg 99% of the time means adding power through progression.

    Now if people are willing to let go of their obsession with progression, then ya you could make some killer mmo's catering to only one playstyle. But until then we already know a pure mmo would be pretty small.

    Developers don't give a shit what people want. You can't even vote with your wallet anymore. All they have to do is create an environment that exploits a tiny group of people. pve group and pvp group are irrelevant, You are decoration for the rich. But no one said a word when they removed crafting. MMorpgs are an embarrassment now. Selling permits to cheaters instead of selling good games. PVE is next: on the chopping block) 

    There are far more people who would play a virtual worlds sim mmorpg than a pure pvp or pure pve mmo. So what was that about causality? If it was coming from the player side there would be far better ideas than a hackers paradise and pve progression game with no point other than to progress. History already tells us this.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

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