Honestly it depends on the nature of the game. When I played DAoC back in the day it was brand new and everything was cool regardless of my lvl. The same thing happened when I was playing ffxi. For me ffxi was very much about the journey to endgame and took me a very long (almost a year) time but then I spent years after participating in endgame content but I never regretted taking my time for my first 75
Now I'm playing ffxiv and honestly I could care less about the bulk of the content from 1-50 which is sad because these dungeons are well made. The storyline was pretty good considering today's standards but the leveling speed was all wrong. It either needed to be even faster meaning nonexistant or about 5-10x slower. I say this because there is really no point in running any dungeons below 50 more than once to progress in the storyline or your hunting log. I spent a few days running blaflox about 15 times after work to complete my lvl 32 set of battlemage gear only for it to be useless after one evening of fate grinding/quest grinding on my smn.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by ZapzapI much prefer EQ1/DaoC where it took 50 days played at release to reach max level to all these modern games that took 2 days played or less.
I much prefer UO or AC1 where there was no max level at all and gameplay started at level 1 instead of some "max level".
These games had progression the same exact way that EQ1 had it, just you could focus on combat to make it faster for fighting if you wanted. You still couldn't step into the 'top end' content at creation and do anything in AC or UO. These games gave you the illusion of no levels while they still had levels (especially AC which actually had levels!).
Having said that I prefer a longer leveling process that ends at max level with additional progression options. Basically EQ/EQ2 where you could slow down leveling for AA etc. If leveling is fast it just makes the content seem worthless, GW2 suffers heavily from this. I should feel like it is worth doing that big quest or camping a great item because it will stay with me for a while and not be useless 20 minutes later.
Originally posted by ZapzapI much prefer EQ1/DaoC where it took 50 days played at release to reach max level to all these modern games that took 2 days played or less.
I much prefer UO or AC1 where there was no max level at all and gameplay started at level 1 instead of some "max level".
These games had progression the same exact way that EQ1 had it, just you could focus on combat to make it faster for fighting if you wanted. You still couldn't step into the 'top end' content at creation and do anything in AC or UO. These games gave you the illusion of no levels while they still had levels (especially AC which actually had levels!).
Having said that I prefer a longer leveling process that ends at max level with additional progression options. Basically EQ/EQ2 where you could slow down leveling for AA etc. If leveling is fast it just makes the content seem worthless, GW2 suffers heavily from this. I should feel like it is worth doing that big quest or camping a great item because it will stay with me for a while and not be useless 20 minutes later.
I don't think you played UO. Either that or whatever UO is now is very different from what it used to be.
In UO, you made your character and within a couple of weeks you were spending far less time leveling and the majority of your time doing whatever your chosen path was - cook, treasure hunter, PK, healer, etc. With very few exceptions (ex: bottom of Hythloth, rampant PKing) you could take that three week old character out with most people on most adventures without having to turn on any bandaid mechanics like sidekicks/mentors/etc.
In UO, the pastries you could bake was wholly dependent on your... wait for it... Cooking skill. You didn't have to go out and get your Kill Things skill up to a certain level to bake a fluffier bread.
No, a three week old character isn't going to be soloing 'top end' dragons. Well, most won't. However, that wasn't what Neo_Viper was saying. Gameplay in UO wasn't about camping lich lord and blood elemental spawns unless that was what you wanted to do. A lot of people still have the same haunts years later that they first took a liking to when they started. Some examples would be the orc forts, rat/orc valley and the original dungeons.
Progression and gameplay in UO could be called a lot of things, but 'the same exact way that EQ1 had it' isn't one of them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Progression and gameplay in UO could be called a lot of things, but 'the same exact way that EQ1 had it' isn't one of them
You still had to go out and level up your combat skills to beat the big bad mobs. It hid the progression because it gave you more freedom as to which order you did it in but yes it was still there. If you are trying to say levels didn't matter in UO you are fooling yourself, they still did matter. They mattered on a skill by skill basis. You basically just answered a 3 week progression, you didn't say that it was different than EQ1, just shorter.
AC was even more like EQ was, you actually gained levels and that drove how quickly you could level up your skills.
Some games hide some aspects better than others but they still exist.
Originally posted by ZapzapI much prefer EQ1/DaoC where it took 50 days played at release to reach max level to all these modern games that took 2 days played or less.
I much prefer UO or AC1 where there was no max level at all and gameplay started at level 1 instead of some "max level".
These games had progression the same exact way that EQ1 had it, just you could focus on combat to make it faster for fighting if you wanted. You still couldn't step into the 'top end' content at creation and do anything in AC or UO. These games gave you the illusion of no levels while they still had levels (especially AC which actually had levels!).
Having said that I prefer a longer leveling process that ends at max level with additional progression options. Basically EQ/EQ2 where you could slow down leveling for AA etc. If leveling is fast it just makes the content seem worthless, GW2 suffers heavily from this. I should feel like it is worth doing that big quest or camping a great item because it will stay with me for a while and not be useless 20 minutes later.
I don't think you played UO. Either that or whatever UO is now is very different from what it used to be.
In UO, you made your character and within a couple of weeks you were spending far less time leveling and the majority of your time doing whatever your chosen path was - cook, treasure hunter, PK, healer, etc. With very few exceptions (ex: bottom of Hythloth, rampant PKing) you could take that three week old character out with most people on most adventures without having to turn on any bandaid mechanics like sidekicks/mentors/etc.
In UO, the pastries you could bake was wholly dependent on your... wait for it... Cooking skill. You didn't have to go out and get your Kill Things skill up to a certain level to bake a fluffier bread.
No, a three week old character isn't going to be soloing 'top end' dragons. Well, most won't. However, that wasn't what Neo_Viper was saying. Gameplay in UO wasn't about camping lich lord and blood elemental spawns unless that was what you wanted to do. A lot of people still have the same haunts years later that they first took a liking to when they started. Some examples would be the orc forts, rat/orc valley and the original dungeons.
Progression and gameplay in UO could be called a lot of things, but 'the same exact way that EQ1 had it' isn't one of them.
Yes, exactly what's lost with progression treadmill games. But even EQ found way to play content that wasn't so isolating newbies from pros.
Originally posted by monochrome19 Lol it took me 3 months to get to 50 in WoW when I first started, greatest 3 months ever. But thats a story for another time. Anywhosie, the rest of you want no levels? So you want everyone to be equal ALL the time? Sounds kinda bland if you ask me.
Levels =/= progressions.
You can have the respectable (with diminishing returns) skill tree method (which was used by SWG, Defiance, or even no MMO like Payday 2, etc) which can pretty much amount to the same thing.
Experience points still matters, just that it is not represented in levels but in skill points.
It took me roughly 40 days played to reach level 70 in WoW. I was completely ok with that. There was grind. There was alot of running/riding around, but I had fun. I loved my undead rogue. I liked the way he looked, the way he ran, and the way he played. I loved the world. I spent many hours in open world pvp while leveling up and had some epic 1v1's. I loved battlegrounds. When I hit max level I ran tons of dungeons and competed in the arena. I still would roam for world pvp and frequent the battlegrounds.
I had fun.
I would prefer the next major mmo I play to have at least 25+ days played to reach max level, with the caveat that it is fun and that I can sense the power level increasing.
End game is important to me, but so is the leveling. Leveling should be lengthy, but enjoyable. End game needs to be varied and progressive as well. WoW was the only mmo I really felt combined these and other elements into the most cohesive whole, despite it's issues.
Another mmo that got it right was City of Heroes imo. Mainly because of the intensive character creation options and the ability to create a short bio for your character that anyone could read. This increased my bond with my character in-game. For some reason I felt a similar connection to my rogue, but that probably has alot to do with just how smooth and enjoyable he was to play.
40 days played means one level every 14 hours of playing... You sure you played the same WoW as the rest of us?
I've played WoW off/on for 5 years, 4-6 months at a time and I've never made max level.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
It took me roughly 40 days played to reach level 70 in WoW. I was completely ok with that. There was grind. There was alot of running/riding around, but I had fun. I loved my undead rogue. I liked the way he looked, the way he ran, and the way he played. I loved the world. I spent many hours in open world pvp while leveling up and had some epic 1v1's. I loved battlegrounds. When I hit max level I ran tons of dungeons and competed in the arena. I still would roam for world pvp and frequent the battlegrounds.
I had fun.
I would prefer the next major mmo I play to have at least 25+ days played to reach max level, with the caveat that it is fun and that I can sense the power level increasing.
End game is important to me, but so is the leveling. Leveling should be lengthy, but enjoyable. End game needs to be varied and progressive as well. WoW was the only mmo I really felt combined these and other elements into the most cohesive whole, despite it's issues.
Another mmo that got it right was City of Heroes imo. Mainly because of the intensive character creation options and the ability to create a short bio for your character that anyone could read. This increased my bond with my character in-game. For some reason I felt a similar connection to my rogue, but that probably has alot to do with just how smooth and enjoyable he was to play.
40 days played means one level every 14 hours of playing... You sure you played the same WoW as the rest of us?
I've played WoW off/on for 5 years, 4-6 months at a time and I've never made max level.
I'd like to see a game where it is almost impossible to achieve.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own. -- Herman Melville
I think the problem these days, is that its considered 'hardcore' to reach max level in a level based game, in the shortest possible time,usually by totally bypassing a majority of the games content along the way, as it 'slows them down', as if reaching max level quickly was some kind of achievement they won a prize for. Its a bit like the overweight guy who tries to diet while eating pizza and chocolate every day, their only cheating themselves, and it never ends well.
I am not trying to be rude here but how do people get to max level in only a few days. Do you not have a job or a life outside a video game? I go to work, go to the gym and might go to dinner some nights, hang out with my gf at night too. And then just doing normal errands like going grocery shopping and stuff. Some days i dont even have time to play. Also hanging out with friends and doing real life social things on the weekends. So how does anybody get to max level within a week unless your whole life revolves around MMOs. I guess that is why outsiders consider MMO players the type that dont have a life and live in their parents basement as adults lol.
Originally posted by flguy147 I am not trying to be rude here but how do people get to max level in only a few days. Do you not have a job or a life outside a video game? I go to work, go to the gym and might go to dinner some nights, hang out with my gf at night too. And then just doing normal errands like going grocery shopping and stuff. Some days i dont even have time to play. Also hanging out with friends and doing real life social things on the weekends. So how does anybody get to max level within a week unless your whole life revolves around MMOs. I guess that is why outsiders consider MMO players the type that dont have a life and live in their parents basement as adults lol.
Originally posted by flguy147 I am not trying to be rude here but how do people get to max level in only a few days. Do you not have a job or a life outside a video game? I go to work, go to the gym and might go to dinner some nights, hang out with my gf at night too. And then just doing normal errands like going grocery shopping and stuff. Some days i dont even have time to play. Also hanging out with friends and doing real life social things on the weekends. So how does anybody get to max level within a week unless your whole life revolves around MMOs. I guess that is why outsiders consider MMO players the type that dont have a life and live in their parents basement as adults lol.
actually, South Park did a really funny episode on that type of gameplay, Make love not warcraft i think it was called, you can probably still find it on youtube, totally hillarious if a little OTT, but it does kind of highlight the kind of thing your on about.
Most of the best mmos don't have endgame, or are all endgame.
Can think of a handful of mmos that got the let's have a leveling bit, then let's have an endgame bit right. Namely wow, pre toa daoc, pre ldn EQ & gw1.
Long enough to be able to craft my own gear and not outlevel it in half an hour. In current MMOs you wear what you get from drops until you get to endgame where the gear treadmill starts. Gaining a level or a new item should mean something.
Originally posted by flguy147 I am not trying to be rude here but how do people get to max level in only a few days. Do you not have a job or a life outside a video game? I go to work, go to the gym and might go to dinner some nights, hang out with my gf at night too. And then just doing normal errands like going grocery shopping and stuff. Some days i dont even have time to play. Also hanging out with friends and doing real life social things on the weekends. So how does anybody get to max level within a week unless your whole life revolves around MMOs. I guess that is why outsiders consider MMO players the type that dont have a life and live in their parents basement as adults lol.
wanna know how? taking a week off when an expanion (wow) released. i got to level cap in that week. leveling as a Tank it could be quicker if i went dps.
well i used to do that anyway. But even if you take your time playing a couple hours a week you stil hit cap pretty damn fast in almost any game.
edit:
The entire leveling procedure should just take a long time. when you gain a level that should mean something specially in the higher regions. Getting cap should really mean something it should be a achievment
What both Loktofeit and me mean is that levels (or skill levels) are of way less importance in AC1 and UO.
In AC1, you could kill creatures way higher than your level, it wasn't like today's games or even EQ where 5 levels higher means certain death for you.
With my level 75 CLaW mage (Creature, Life and War), I was killing level 999 mobs in "Valley of Death", solo.
Originally posted by Neo_Viper What both Loktofeit and me mean is that levels (or skill levels) are of way less importance in AC1 and UO.
In AC1, you could kill creatures way higher than your level, it wasn't like today's games or even EQ where 5 levels higher means certain death for you.
With my level 75 CLaW mage (Creature, Life and War), I was killing level 999 mobs in "Valley of Death", solo.
Oh definitely. If I were to copy a games leveling system it would probably be AC1 in fact. They probably had the best system of any I've played. If I had to copy a standard level based game I'd copy EQ. Slow crawl to max and then a horizontal leveling path in AA.
The real key to me is that you can't constantly be making the gear you have obsolete or it becomes worthless and you can't reach a magic point where you can only improve yourself via gear. On top of that I personally want to be able to revisit older content and get a feel for how powerful I have become. This is something that drives me nuts in GW2.
Originally posted by monochrome19 Please do not mistake this for "how long should it take to reach end game"I took me 1 month to reach max in FFXIV:ARR, which I think is fair. Especially because I didnt have to pay that entire month. I hear vets saying it took 6+ months in the olden days, which doesnt sound bad but doesnt sound "good" either, it sounds like a journey. And I love journeys, but only if their fun.So, to you, how long should the journey be?
Just remove the lvls and have fun so you guys dont have be so damned stress about it anymore how and when you should reach max lvl. It spare you frustrating trip to forums constantly hitting same old dead cow.
Its prolly useless saying this i'll bet if i come in 6 moths same old topics over and over again some old questions lol.
In mean while games getting dumber and dumber bah:(
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77 CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now)) MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB PSU:Corsair AX1200i OS:Windows 10 64bit
Six months for a hard core player; one year or more for a casual player. Provided there are lots of different areas to explore/hunt, as was the case in EQ.
Originally posted by xeniar Originally posted by Neo_ViperOriginally posted by ZapzapI much prefer EQ1/DaoC where it took 50 days played at release to reach max level to all these modern games that took 2 days played or less.
I much prefer UO or AC1 where there was no max level at all and gameplay started at level 1 instead of some "max level".Thats where your wrong.
You see leveling as something stupid. Leveling is where your game begins not End game. please get off the end game high horse because end game is stupid.
/agree Xeniar and ZapZap. For me, compelling gameplay started on day 1 of EQ; in UO months earlier, it never happened at all. BTW, If one can reach max level in a week or two, I think it is absolutely pointless to have levels in the game.
Originally posted by syriinx ...Shorter leveling means lower retention. Makes it much easier to let go of a game.
Exactly correct. I have no interest in the play-and-forget MMOs being released today.
Originally posted by WW4BW slow enough to make meaningful use of the areas players progress through...
+1
Originally posted by Wiha Long enough to be able to craft my own gear and not outlevel it in half an hour. Gaining a level or a new item should mean something.
+1
Originally posted by Neo_Viper ...levels (or skill levels) are of way less importance in AC1 and UO.
Seems rather pointless to refer to character level in a skill-based game.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon. In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
Comments
Honestly it depends on the nature of the game. When I played DAoC back in the day it was brand new and everything was cool regardless of my lvl. The same thing happened when I was playing ffxi. For me ffxi was very much about the journey to endgame and took me a very long (almost a year) time but then I spent years after participating in endgame content but I never regretted taking my time for my first 75
Now I'm playing ffxiv and honestly I could care less about the bulk of the content from 1-50 which is sad because these dungeons are well made. The storyline was pretty good considering today's standards but the leveling speed was all wrong. It either needed to be even faster meaning nonexistant or about 5-10x slower. I say this because there is really no point in running any dungeons below 50 more than once to progress in the storyline or your hunting log. I spent a few days running blaflox about 15 times after work to complete my lvl 32 set of battlemage gear only for it to be useless after one evening of fate grinding/quest grinding on my smn.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
These games had progression the same exact way that EQ1 had it, just you could focus on combat to make it faster for fighting if you wanted. You still couldn't step into the 'top end' content at creation and do anything in AC or UO. These games gave you the illusion of no levels while they still had levels (especially AC which actually had levels!).
Having said that I prefer a longer leveling process that ends at max level with additional progression options. Basically EQ/EQ2 where you could slow down leveling for AA etc. If leveling is fast it just makes the content seem worthless, GW2 suffers heavily from this. I should feel like it is worth doing that big quest or camping a great item because it will stay with me for a while and not be useless 20 minutes later.
I don't think you played UO. Either that or whatever UO is now is very different from what it used to be.
In UO, you made your character and within a couple of weeks you were spending far less time leveling and the majority of your time doing whatever your chosen path was - cook, treasure hunter, PK, healer, etc. With very few exceptions (ex: bottom of Hythloth, rampant PKing) you could take that three week old character out with most people on most adventures without having to turn on any bandaid mechanics like sidekicks/mentors/etc.
In UO, the pastries you could bake was wholly dependent on your... wait for it... Cooking skill. You didn't have to go out and get your Kill Things skill up to a certain level to bake a fluffier bread.
No, a three week old character isn't going to be soloing 'top end' dragons. Well, most won't. However, that wasn't what Neo_Viper was saying. Gameplay in UO wasn't about camping lich lord and blood elemental spawns unless that was what you wanted to do. A lot of people still have the same haunts years later that they first took a liking to when they started. Some examples would be the orc forts, rat/orc valley and the original dungeons.
Progression and gameplay in UO could be called a lot of things, but 'the same exact way that EQ1 had it' isn't one of them.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You still had to go out and level up your combat skills to beat the big bad mobs. It hid the progression because it gave you more freedom as to which order you did it in but yes it was still there. If you are trying to say levels didn't matter in UO you are fooling yourself, they still did matter. They mattered on a skill by skill basis. You basically just answered a 3 week progression, you didn't say that it was different than EQ1, just shorter.
AC was even more like EQ was, you actually gained levels and that drove how quickly you could level up your skills.
Some games hide some aspects better than others but they still exist.
Yes, exactly what's lost with progression treadmill games. But even EQ found way to play content that wasn't so isolating newbies from pros.
Levels =/= progressions.
You can have the respectable (with diminishing returns) skill tree method (which was used by SWG, Defiance, or even no MMO like Payday 2, etc) which can pretty much amount to the same thing.
Experience points still matters, just that it is not represented in levels but in skill points.
I've played WoW off/on for 5 years, 4-6 months at a time and I've never made max level.
respect for that.
There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.
-- Herman Melville
Standard: 3 weeks. That used to be 3 months, but these days everyone wants it faster.
---
But with the added option a player can choose how long the run will be (by controlling EXPERIENCE gains/shut down).
WOW as an example: you can shut down experience gains and grind gear each level/quest.
My rogue reached max level after 2 years and 2 months leveling by PvP only and assembling the gear in pve with experience turned off completely.
Great fun.
You called it, it's a bunch of no-life losers.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
actually, South Park did a really funny episode on that type of gameplay, Make love not warcraft i think it was called, you can probably still find it on youtube, totally hillarious if a little OTT, but it does kind of highlight the kind of thing your on about.
Most of the best mmos don't have endgame, or are all endgame.
Can think of a handful of mmos that got the let's have a leveling bit, then let's have an endgame bit right. Namely wow, pre toa daoc, pre ldn EQ & gw1.
wanna know how? taking a week off when an expanion (wow) released. i got to level cap in that week. leveling as a Tank it could be quicker if i went dps.
well i used to do that anyway. But even if you take your time playing a couple hours a week you stil hit cap pretty damn fast in almost any game.
edit:
The entire leveling procedure should just take a long time. when you gain a level that should mean something specially in the higher regions. Getting cap should really mean something it should be a achievment
What both Loktofeit and me mean is that levels (or skill levels) are of way less importance in AC1 and UO.
In AC1, you could kill creatures way higher than your level, it wasn't like today's games or even EQ where 5 levels higher means certain death for you.
With my level 75 CLaW mage (Creature, Life and War), I was killing level 999 mobs in "Valley of Death", solo.
My computer is better than yours.
No matter how cynical you become, its never enough to keep up - Lily Tomlin
Oh definitely. If I were to copy a games leveling system it would probably be AC1 in fact. They probably had the best system of any I've played. If I had to copy a standard level based game I'd copy EQ. Slow crawl to max and then a horizontal leveling path in AA.
The real key to me is that you can't constantly be making the gear you have obsolete or it becomes worthless and you can't reach a magic point where you can only improve yourself via gear. On top of that I personally want to be able to revisit older content and get a feel for how powerful I have become. This is something that drives me nuts in GW2.
Who cares.
If game is fun and worth playing i give damn on when you reach some lvl if it takes years i don't care.
Game and community must be fun, how fast you lvling is not importend at all.
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Just remove the lvls and have fun so you guys dont have be so damned stress about it anymore how and when you should reach max lvl.
It spare you frustrating trip to forums constantly hitting same old dead cow.
Its prolly useless saying this i'll bet if i come in 6 moths same old topics over and over again some old questions lol.
In mean while games getting dumber and dumber bah:(
Hope to build full AMD system RYZEN/VEGA/AM4!!!
MB:Asus V De Luxe z77
CPU:Intell Icore7 3770k
GPU: AMD Fury X(waiting for BIG VEGA 10 or 11 HBM2?(bit unclear now))
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 10 64bit
Six months for a hard core player; one year or more for a casual player.
Provided there are lots of different areas to explore/hunt, as was the case in EQ.
I much prefer UO or AC1 where there was no max level at all and gameplay started at level 1 instead of some "max level".Thats where your wrong.
You see leveling as something stupid. Leveling is where your game begins not End game. please get off the end game high horse because end game is stupid.
/agree Xeniar and ZapZap. For me, compelling gameplay started on day 1 of EQ; in UO months earlier, it never happened at all. BTW, If one can reach max level in a week or two, I think it is absolutely pointless to have levels in the game.
Exactly correct. I have no interest in the play-and-forget MMOs being released today.
+1
+1Seems rather pointless to refer to character level in a skill-based game.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit