I think there should be more common sense loot but I think randomness is not a bad thing.
Randomness in crafting is not bad. Randomness in attacks are not bad. I like random varibles in loot instead of all items being created equal.
Things that I think should be obvious is that if a character is wearing an item you should at least get ruin pieces of that armor dropping.
Agreed, but that's more of an itemization issue than a randomness issue. You could have completely logical drops and still have the randomness or drop rate be an issue, which is what the OP is talking about.
The ruined pieces suggestion you present seems a good one and some MMOs have gone a similar route. If you fight a hundred orcs, you have no use for 100 ringmail tunics, basic swords and orc helms, but if they are salvageable version (ex: mats from the type of gear they wear, smeltable gear) or a version that can be used to combine to create something else (ex: 5 ruined ringmail combine to make a wearable ringmail suit) that could probably go a long way towards more sensible drops without completely throwing the economy in the toilet.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think there should be more common sense loot but I think randomness is not a bad thing.
Randomness in crafting is not bad. Randomness in attacks are not bad. I like random varibles in loot instead of all items being created equal.
Things that I think should be obvious is that if a character is wearing an item you should at least get ruin pieces of that armor dropping.
Agreed, but that's more of an itemization issue than a randomness issue. You could have completely logical drops and still have the randomness or drop rate be an issue, which is what the OP is talking about.
The ruined pieces suggestion you present seems a good one and some MMOs have gone a similar route. If you fight a hundred orcs, you have no use for 100 ringmail tunics, basic swords and orc helms, but if they are salvageable version (ex: mats from the type of gear they wear, smeltable gear) or a version that can be used to combine to create something else (ex: 5 ruined ringmail combine to make a wearable ringmail suit) that could probably go a long way towards more sensible drops without completely throwing the economy in the toilet.
Well, I doubt it would happened based on what's happened with the genre. They already made the journey quick. If they make the destination short then you don't have much of a game left. Having players run the gauntlet is there to keep people playing. Even that has been made easier.
I think there should be more common sense loot but I think randomness is not a bad thing.
Randomness in crafting is not bad. Randomness in attacks are not bad. I like random varibles in loot instead of all items being created equal.
Things that I think should be obvious is that if a character is wearing an item you should at least get ruin pieces of that armor dropping.
Agreed, but that's more of an itemization issue than a randomness issue. You could have completely logical drops and still have the randomness or drop rate be an issue, which is what the OP is talking about.
The ruined pieces suggestion you present seems a good one and some MMOs have gone a similar route. If you fight a hundred orcs, you have no use for 100 ringmail tunics, basic swords and orc helms, but if they are salvageable version (ex: mats from the type of gear they wear, smeltable gear) or a version that can be used to combine to create something else (ex: 5 ruined ringmail combine to make a wearable ringmail suit) that could probably go a long way towards more sensible drops without completely throwing the economy in the toilet.
Well, I doubt it would happened based on what's happened with the genre. They already made the journey quick. If they make the destination short then you don't have much of a game left. Having players run the gauntlet is there to keep people playing. Even that has been made easier.
I'm not following how that applies to the discussion here, unless you are referring specifically to tiered gear drops in raids. Could you expand on that?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I think there should be more common sense loot but I think randomness is not a bad thing.
Randomness in crafting is not bad. Randomness in attacks are not bad. I like random varibles in loot instead of all items being created equal.
Things that I think should be obvious is that if a character is wearing an item you should at least get ruin pieces of that armor dropping.
Agreed, but that's more of an itemization issue than a randomness issue. You could have completely logical drops and still have the randomness or drop rate be an issue, which is what the OP is talking about.
The ruined pieces suggestion you present seems a good one and some MMOs have gone a similar route. If you fight a hundred orcs, you have no use for 100 ringmail tunics, basic swords and orc helms, but if they are salvageable version (ex: mats from the type of gear they wear, smeltable gear) or a version that can be used to combine to create something else (ex: 5 ruined ringmail combine to make a wearable ringmail suit) that could probably go a long way towards more sensible drops without completely throwing the economy in the toilet.
Well, I doubt it would happened based on what's happened with the genre. They already made the journey quick. If they make the destination short then you don't have much of a game left. Having players run the gauntlet is there to keep people playing. Even that has been made easier.
I'm not following how that applies to the discussion here, unless you are referring specifically to tiered gear drops in raids. Could you expand on that?
Pretty much. Most critical gear drops generally are in raids/dungeons. If you make it 100% drop rate your going to lose a lot of the replay value. Many modern MMORPG's are geared towards end game. Not much of a reason to continue to raid if you got everything for everyone the first time around. Maybe its not that bad I was never one for raiding.
Of course this has nothing to do with those gambling chest/cash shop key type situations.
I think there should be more common sense loot but I think randomness is not a bad thing.
Randomness in crafting is not bad. Randomness in attacks are not bad. I like random varibles in loot instead of all items being created equal.
Things that I think should be obvious is that if a character is wearing an item you should at least get ruin pieces of that armor dropping.
Agreed, but that's more of an itemization issue than a randomness issue. You could have completely logical drops and still have the randomness or drop rate be an issue, which is what the OP is talking about.
The ruined pieces suggestion you present seems a good one and some MMOs have gone a similar route. If you fight a hundred orcs, you have no use for 100 ringmail tunics, basic swords and orc helms, but if they are salvageable version (ex: mats from the type of gear they wear, smeltable gear) or a version that can be used to combine to create something else (ex: 5 ruined ringmail combine to make a wearable ringmail suit) that could probably go a long way towards more sensible drops without completely throwing the economy in the toilet.
Well, I doubt it would happened based on what's happened with the genre. They already made the journey quick. If they make the destination short then you don't have much of a game left. Having players run the gauntlet is there to keep people playing. Even that has been made easier.
I'm not following how that applies to the discussion here, unless you are referring specifically to tiered gear drops in raids. Could you expand on that?
Pretty much. Most critical gear drops generally are in raids/dungeons. If you make it 100% drop rate your going to lose a lot of the replay value. Many modern MMORPG's are geared towards end game. Not much of a reason to continue to raid if you got everything for everyone the first time around. Maybe its not that bad I was never one for raiding.
Of course this has nothing to do with those gambling chest/cash shop key type situations.
Using the existing design right now, sure it would be bad. IMO, 'endgame' and the repetitive gameplay of running the same four dungeons over and over again for rare drops is horrible design, and the rare drops are mostly the only reason people do them. I'd always advise against piling worse design on top of bad design. I was talking more about the gameplay areas where people were doing it to have fun and not just the chase a carrot crap at the end of shallow MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
When boss that you hard work to take down drop random trash ?
When chest box reward drop a crap ?
When quest ask for 10 rats tail with 5% change drop ?
When developers ninja patch and change drop rate ?
The joy they bring are little but most time it cause you mad.
So why we keep the random gamble ?
Because gambling and uncertainty is fun, especially when the process involves fun gameplay. What you're really asking is "why aren't games more efficient?"
Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.
I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?
The fact that I am ridiculing your irrational attempts to demonize a payment model doesn't make me a fan of said payment model. Do you even read your replies before you post 'em?
If I never see posters questioning what I see as the main problems of F2P and cash shops, that's the boat I put you in, rightly or wrongly. As to wanting to demonise "F2P", I don't think it is a source of evil or the worst thing in gaming. And really its the cash shop not F2P I have issues with. In fact if you combined a P2P model with free limited access I would be fine with that model, its the cash shop that causes the problems, not having a free element.
Turbines hybrid model was excellent when it started, Lotro became a F2P MMO with a cash shop and it was still a fine game, so the model you think I want to demonise can be done well. But within a year that had changed and no more than 18 months down the line the cash shop was selling P2W items. So give me a F2P/B2P or P2P MMO with a responsible cash shop and I am happy. I would still think a P2P MMO gets a bigger budget and is more likely to retain committed players mind you. But at its core a responsible cash shop equals a decent game in my eyes.
Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.
I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?
The fact that I am ridiculing your irrational attempts to demonize a payment model doesn't make me a fan of said payment model. Do you even read your replies before you post 'em?
If I never see posters questioning what I see as the main problems of F2P and cash shops, that's the boat I put you in, rightly or wrongly.
And you don't see anything at all wrong with that approach?
You're entitled to your opinion and all, and I would never try to take that away from you. However I think there's plenty of common ground that you'll find with a lot of people here, especially on this topic, if you drop the "You're either with us or against us" approach.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I generally don't have a problem with cash shop shops. Generally the problems I have have to do with the game and not the payment model. Generally. There are some exceptions however those problems are just what I consider to be bad implementations and not the idea of as cash shop.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The sad part is that games that haven't even been conceived of yet, their business model is already known. Gameplay doesn't veer to far away from the business model. So we pretty much can already tell what the future holds.
The business model should fit the game perfectly. We get the exact opposite, whether it fits or not. Typical games, for typical business models.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.
I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?
The fact that I am ridiculing your irrational attempts to demonize a payment model doesn't make me a fan of said payment model. Do you even read your replies before you post 'em?
If I never see posters questioning what I see as the main problems of F2P and cash shops, that's the boat I put you in, rightly or wrongly.
And you don't see anything at all wrong with that approach?
You're entitled to your opinion and all, and I would never try to take that away from you. However I think there's plenty of common ground that you'll find with a lot of people here, especially on this topic, if you drop the "You're either with us or against us" approach.
I must admit I don't see a lot of grey here so I can go OTT at times. I should say I have nothing against these companies making lots of money, that's how a business should be run. It just saddens me they have gone down a P2W and gambling route as it seems in my eyes. My turn for a rant I guess.
I must admit I don't see a lot of grey here so I can go OTT at times. I should say I have nothing against these companies making lots of money, that's how a business should be run. It just saddens me they have gone down a P2W and gambling route as it seems in my eyes. My turn for a rant I guess.
I'm not a fan of the gambling either. It's cheap entertainment and an uncreative way to create content... unless it's an actual poker table, that is. In that case, deal me in.
However, when you look at the goal, there is little difference between rare Tier #X drops in a raid dungeon and blindboxes/gachapon. One costs money directly and the other costs time which extends the number of months of sub they get which is the reason for the rare drops. At least the blindbox is honest about what it is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I must admit I don't see a lot of grey here so I can go OTT at times. I should say I have nothing against these companies making lots of money, that's how a business should be run. It just saddens me they have gone down a P2W and gambling route as it seems in my eyes. My turn for a rant I guess.
I'm not a fan of the gambling either. It's cheap entertainment and an uncreative way to create content... unless it's an actual poker table, that is. In that case, deal me in.
However, when you look at the goal, there is little difference between rare Tier #X drops in a raid dungeon and blindboxes/gachapon. One costs money directly and the other costs time which extends the number of months of sub they get which is the reason for the rare drops. At least the blindbox is honest about what it is.
Indeed. What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money. It is only fortunate that some people really like RNG.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I must admit I don't see a lot of grey here so I can go OTT at times. I should say I have nothing against these companies making lots of money, that's how a business should be run. It just saddens me they have gone down a P2W and gambling route as it seems in my eyes. My turn for a rant I guess.
I'm not a fan of the gambling either. It's cheap entertainment and an uncreative way to create content... unless it's an actual poker table, that is. In that case, deal me in.
However, when you look at the goal, there is little difference between rare Tier #X drops in a raid dungeon and blindboxes/gachapon. One costs money directly and the other costs time which extends the number of months of sub they get which is the reason for the rare drops. At least the blindbox is honest about what it is.
Indeed. What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money. It is only fortunate that some people really like RNG.
In the P2P, you pay in money, as well. It's just one step removed so most people really don't think about it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I must admit I don't see a lot of grey here so I can go OTT at times. I should say I have nothing against these companies making lots of money, that's how a business should be run. It just saddens me they have gone down a P2W and gambling route as it seems in my eyes. My turn for a rant I guess.
I'm not a fan of the gambling either. It's cheap entertainment and an uncreative way to create content... unless it's an actual poker table, that is. In that case, deal me in.
However, when you look at the goal, there is little difference between rare Tier #X drops in a raid dungeon and blindboxes/gachapon. One costs money directly and the other costs time which extends the number of months of sub they get which is the reason for the rare drops. At least the blindbox is honest about what it is.
Indeed. What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money. It is only fortunate that some people really like RNG.
In the P2P, you pay in money, as well. It's just one step removed so most people really don't think about it.
I don't see it that way at all. You are extending the argument both involve paying money to both are the same. P2P is not gambling simple as that. However, if you had a card game in a MMO, one that could be played for in game gold, I would be fine with that. It is not the act of gambling, its using real money that gets me. As long as real money is not involved, and its rewards are outside of where the normal gameplay in a MMO occurs, that's fine.
I just started Path of Exile, very impressed so far with the financial model that F2P MMO has. Top down view and point and click movement are not to my taste, but still like it. So there is an example of a F2P game whose financial model I can recommend. Admittedly I have not seen that much of it yet mind you.
I must admit I don't see a lot of grey here so I can go OTT at times. I should say I have nothing against these companies making lots of money, that's how a business should be run. It just saddens me they have gone down a P2W and gambling route as it seems in my eyes. My turn for a rant I guess.
I'm not a fan of the gambling either. It's cheap entertainment and an uncreative way to create content... unless it's an actual poker table, that is. In that case, deal me in.
However, when you look at the goal, there is little difference between rare Tier #X drops in a raid dungeon and blindboxes/gachapon. One costs money directly and the other costs time which extends the number of months of sub they get which is the reason for the rare drops. At least the blindbox is honest about what it is.
Indeed. What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money. It is only fortunate that some people really like RNG.
In the P2P, you pay in money, as well. It's just one step removed so most people really don't think about it.
I don't see it that way at all. You are extending the argument both involve paying money to both are the same. P2P is not gambling simple as that. However, if you had a card game in a MMO, one that could be played for in game gold, I would be fine with that. It is not the act of gambling, its using real money that gets me. As long as real money is not involved, and its rewards are outside of where the normal gameplay in a MMO occurs, that's fine.
I said nothing about P2P being gambling. I was replying directly to your post:
What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money.
Do you really think that the random gear drops in the raid dungeons of gear-dependent games is not done to extend that time factor? Why do you think devs do that, Scot?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I must admit I don't see a lot of grey here so I can go OTT at times. I should say I have nothing against these companies making lots of money, that's how a business should be run. It just saddens me they have gone down a P2W and gambling route as it seems in my eyes. My turn for a rant I guess.
I'm not a fan of the gambling either. It's cheap entertainment and an uncreative way to create content... unless it's an actual poker table, that is. In that case, deal me in.
However, when you look at the goal, there is little difference between rare Tier #X drops in a raid dungeon and blindboxes/gachapon. One costs money directly and the other costs time which extends the number of months of sub they get which is the reason for the rare drops. At least the blindbox is honest about what it is.
Indeed. What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money. It is only fortunate that some people really like RNG.
In the P2P, you pay in money, as well. It's just one step removed so most people really don't think about it.
I don't see it that way at all. You are extending the argument both involve paying money to both are the same. P2P is not gambling simple as that. However, if you had a card game in a MMO, one that could be played for in game gold, I would be fine with that. It is not the act of gambling, its using real money that gets me. As long as real money is not involved, and its rewards are outside of where the normal gameplay in a MMO occurs, that's fine.
I said nothing about P2P being gambling. I was replying directly to your post:
What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money.
Do you really think that the random gear drops in the raid dungeons of gear-dependent games is not done to extend that time factor? Why do you think devs do that, Scot?
It was Quirhad who said that, but no matter. For me, if you can make a F2P MMO that has a fair cash shop, like Turbine's was in the old days or PoE seems to be now, how can P2W and gambling be justified? Why do only some cash shop MMO's need to use revenue systems which go against gaming ethos while others do not?
Clearly devs are trying to extend the time factor in raids, but is that the same as gambling? I would say it was first and foremost to extend end game. If MMO end game was a quest which ended in GAME OVER, I think players would have something to say about that rather quickly. To use your logic in a P2P MMO, if they sent random housing decorations to players every month which cost nothing, would you also equate that to cash shop gambling? Simply having something in end game which involves randomness does not make it as bad as cash shop gambling.
Agreed, but that's more of an itemization issue than a randomness issue. You could have completely logical drops and still have the randomness or drop rate be an issue, which is what the OP is talking about.
The ruined pieces suggestion you present seems a good one and some MMOs have gone a similar route. If you fight a hundred orcs, you have no use for 100 ringmail tunics, basic swords and orc helms, but if they are salvageable version (ex: mats from the type of gear they wear, smeltable gear) or a version that can be used to combine to create something else (ex: 5 ruined ringmail combine to make a wearable ringmail suit) that could probably go a long way towards more sensible drops without completely throwing the economy in the toilet.
Since when do we talk "sensible" here?
Just on page two i saw the "rng is not truly random hrpaderp" (like anyone would be able to notice) argument and denial of Hawkings "Not only does God definitely play dice, but He sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen."
It gets funny when you consider that people look at ye olde days with ridicule where an orc dropped a orc head directly into the inventory for everyone in the group , but have no problems with demons carrying around tokens of pure chivalry with a similar amount mechanic attached to them...
I don't see it that way at all. You are extending the argument both involve paying money to both are the same. P2P is not gambling simple as that. However, if you had a card game in a MMO, one that could be played for in game gold, I would be fine with that. It is not the act of gambling, its using real money that gets me. As long as real money is not involved, and its rewards are outside of where the normal gameplay in a MMO occurs, that's fine.
I said nothing about P2P being gambling. I was replying directly to your post:
What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money.
Do you really think that the random gear drops in the raid dungeons of gear-dependent games is not done to extend that time factor? Why do you think devs do that, Scot?
Haah.. you quoted me. Brainfart!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I don't see it that way at all. You are extending the argument both involve paying money to both are the same. P2P is not gambling simple as that. However, if you had a card game in a MMO, one that could be played for in game gold, I would be fine with that. It is not the act of gambling, its using real money that gets me. As long as real money is not involved, and its rewards are outside of where the normal gameplay in a MMO occurs, that's fine.
I said nothing about P2P being gambling. I was replying directly to your post:
What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money.
Do you really think that the random gear drops in the raid dungeons of gear-dependent games is not done to extend that time factor? Why do you think devs do that, Scot?
Haah.. you quoted me. Brainfart!
I'm old. I get confused easily.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It was Quirhad who said that, but no matter. For me, if you can make a F2P MMO that has a fair cash shop, like Turbine's was in the old days or PoE seems to be now, how can P2W and gambling be justified? Why do only some cash shop MMO's need to use revenue systems which go against gaming ethos while others do not?
Clearly devs are trying to extend the time factor in raids, but is that the same as gambling? I would say it was first and foremost to extend end game. If MMO end game was a quest which ended in GAME OVER, I think players would have something to say about that rather quickly. To use your logic in a P2P MMO, if they sent random housing decorations to players every month which cost nothing, would you also equate that to cash shop gambling? Simply having something in end game which involves randomness does not make it as bad as cash shop gambling.
But it is. One gambles with his money while the other gambles with his time (and by extension, his money). Essentially they are the same thing and the end result is the same: Players spending more money. Like Loktofeit said, atleast the F2P games are more honest about it.
If a P2P game wanted to be more honest in this context it would have to abandon random loot and reward the players with fixed amount of tokens instead. The players could then use the tokens at an NPC vendor for gear. With such a system you can anticipate how many times you have to complete the dungeon in order to get "a full set", for example.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
It was Quirhad who said that, but no matter. For me, if you can make a F2P MMO that has a fair cash shop, like Turbine's was in the old days or PoE seems to be now, how can P2W and gambling be justified? Why do only some cash shop MMO's need to use revenue systems which go against gaming ethos while others do not?Clearly devs are trying to extend the time factor in raids, but is that the same as gambling? I would say it was first and foremost to extend end game. If MMO end game was a quest which ended in GAME OVER, I think players would have something to say about that rather quickly. To use your logic in a P2P MMO, if they sent random housing decorations to players every month which cost nothing, would you also equate that to cash shop gambling? Simply having something in end game which involves randomness does not make it as bad as cash shop gambling.
But it is. One gambles with his money while the other gambles with his time (and by extension, his money). Essentially they are the same thing and the end result is the same: Players spending more money. Like Loktofeit said, atleast the F2P games are more honest about it.
If a P2P game wanted to be more honest in this context it would have to abandon random loot and reward the players with fixed amount of tokens instead. The players could then use the tokens at an NPC vendor for gear. With such a system you can anticipate how many times you have to complete the dungeon in order to get "a full set", for example.
Would having just tokens make the repetitive nature of dungeons and raids too boring? There is excitement in the loot drop, and it's that excitement that at least in part drives players to participate.
Something else to note is that it seems that both the leveling portion and the end game portion of theme park games has shortened over time. Leveling in general has gone from many months to a few months, even for slow players like me. End game raiding has gone from a perpetual activity to something completed in a couple of months at most. The same amount of content is generating less revenue than it used to. It is still a gamble, but it's a less expensive gamble than it used to be.
**
Something else to note. With cash shop items, it is only the "loot boxes" that are like gambling. The player pays their money and they get their 1 chance. The difference between this and dungeons or raids is that the player can run the dungeon or raid many times making the payout a guarantee, not a possibility. That is, unless there are lock outs. If there are lockouts, the player's chance to win is has a ceiling just like with loot boxes. It's a potentially higher ceiling, but it's a ceiling none the less.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It was Quirhad who said that, but no matter. For me, if you can make a F2P MMO that has a fair cash shop, like Turbine's was in the old days or PoE seems to be now, how can P2W and gambling be justified? Why do only some cash shop MMO's need to use revenue systems which go against gaming ethos while others do not?Clearly devs are trying to extend the time factor in raids, but is that the same as gambling? I would say it was first and foremost to extend end game. If MMO end game was a quest which ended in GAME OVER, I think players would have something to say about that rather quickly. To use your logic in a P2P MMO, if they sent random housing decorations to players every month which cost nothing, would you also equate that to cash shop gambling? Simply having something in end game which involves randomness does not make it as bad as cash shop gambling.
But it is. One gambles with his money while the other gambles with his time (and by extension, his money). Essentially they are the same thing and the end result is the same: Players spending more money. Like Loktofeit said, atleast the F2P games are more honest about it.
If a P2P game wanted to be more honest in this context it would have to abandon random loot and reward the players with fixed amount of tokens instead. The players could then use the tokens at an NPC vendor for gear. With such a system you can anticipate how many times you have to complete the dungeon in order to get "a full set", for example.
Would having just tokens make the repetitive nature of dungeons and raids too boring? There is excitement in the loot drop, and it's that excitement that at least in part drives players to participate.
Something else to note is that it seems that both the leveling portion and the end game portion of theme park games has shortened over time. Leveling in general has gone from many months to a few months, even for slow players like me. End game raiding has gone from a perpetual activity to something completed in a couple of months at most. The same amount of content is generating less revenue than it used to. It is still a gamble, but it's a less expensive gamble than it used to be.
**
Something else to note. With cash shop items, it is only the "loot boxes" that are like gambling. The player pays their money and they get their 1 chance. The difference between this and dungeons or raids is that the player can run the dungeon or raid many times making the payout a guarantee, not a possibility. That is, unless there are lock outs. If there are lockouts, the player's chance to win is has a ceiling just like with loot boxes. It's a potentially higher ceiling, but it's a ceiling none the less.
Well the tokens as raid loot has been tried, it was the way Lotro went and I am sure their not the only one to go that way. I don't think they embraced that system in all raid loot areas mind you. So yes that is fairer than the random drop, but like the lizardbones said, it is not as exciting.
Lets move out of end game, cash shop gambling occurs from day one with lock boxes, how do you equate that with time as money? This is milking players for every cent, not some grand upstanding policy to show players where their money is going.
It is very simple. If you only had to kill a boss once to get everything you wanted, you would be bored of the game in a few weeks, tops. It isn't necessarily about grinding, although that is part of it. More-so it is because MMO's are (or at least should be) long-term investments of time where you slowly acquire gear and power while making friends, exploring the world, and participating in the lore.
Gambling in its truest sense has no place in an MMO, however.
Well the tokens as raid loot has been tried, it was the way Lotro went and I am sure their not the only one to go that way. I don't think they embraced that system in all raid loot areas mind you. So yes that is fairer than the random drop, but like the lizardbones said, it is not as exciting.
Lets move out of end game, cash shop gambling occurs from day one with lock boxes, how do you equate that with time as money? This is milking players for every cent, not some grand upstanding policy to show players where their money is going.
I don't follow you. Lock boxes are not the primary method of advancement in any F2P game (actually, I don't think they are a major part of any game). I can't remember any F2P game where buying lockboxes was mandatory. Usually the cash shop sells equipment or it doesn't. And even you got a major part of your equipment from lockboxes, they are no different from a standard loot drop.
Both have an expected return.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Comments
Agreed, but that's more of an itemization issue than a randomness issue. You could have completely logical drops and still have the randomness or drop rate be an issue, which is what the OP is talking about.
The ruined pieces suggestion you present seems a good one and some MMOs have gone a similar route. If you fight a hundred orcs, you have no use for 100 ringmail tunics, basic swords and orc helms, but if they are salvageable version (ex: mats from the type of gear they wear, smeltable gear) or a version that can be used to combine to create something else (ex: 5 ruined ringmail combine to make a wearable ringmail suit) that could probably go a long way towards more sensible drops without completely throwing the economy in the toilet.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well, I doubt it would happened based on what's happened with the genre. They already made the journey quick. If they make the destination short then you don't have much of a game left. Having players run the gauntlet is there to keep people playing. Even that has been made easier.
I'm not following how that applies to the discussion here, unless you are referring specifically to tiered gear drops in raids. Could you expand on that?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Pretty much. Most critical gear drops generally are in raids/dungeons. If you make it 100% drop rate your going to lose a lot of the replay value. Many modern MMORPG's are geared towards end game. Not much of a reason to continue to raid if you got everything for everyone the first time around. Maybe its not that bad I was never one for raiding.
Of course this has nothing to do with those gambling chest/cash shop key type situations.
Using the existing design right now, sure it would be bad. IMO, 'endgame' and the repetitive gameplay of running the same four dungeons over and over again for rare drops is horrible design, and the rare drops are mostly the only reason people do them. I'd always advise against piling worse design on top of bad design. I was talking more about the gameplay areas where people were doing it to have fun and not just the chase a carrot crap at the end of shallow MMOs.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Because gambling and uncertainty is fun, especially when the process involves fun gameplay. What you're really asking is "why aren't games more efficient?"
You make me like charity
If I never see posters questioning what I see as the main problems of F2P and cash shops, that's the boat I put you in, rightly or wrongly. As to wanting to demonise "F2P", I don't think it is a source of evil or the worst thing in gaming. And really its the cash shop not F2P I have issues with. In fact if you combined a P2P model with free limited access I would be fine with that model, its the cash shop that causes the problems, not having a free element.
Turbines hybrid model was excellent when it started, Lotro became a F2P MMO with a cash shop and it was still a fine game, so the model you think I want to demonise can be done well. But within a year that had changed and no more than 18 months down the line the cash shop was selling P2W items. So give me a F2P/B2P or P2P MMO with a responsible cash shop and I am happy. I would still think a P2P MMO gets a bigger budget and is more likely to retain committed players mind you. But at its core a responsible cash shop equals a decent game in my eyes.
And you don't see anything at all wrong with that approach?
You're entitled to your opinion and all, and I would never try to take that away from you. However I think there's plenty of common ground that you'll find with a lot of people here, especially on this topic, if you drop the "You're either with us or against us" approach.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The sad part is that games that haven't even been conceived of yet, their business model is already known. Gameplay doesn't veer to far away from the business model. So we pretty much can already tell what the future holds.
The business model should fit the game perfectly. We get the exact opposite, whether it fits or not. Typical games, for typical business models.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
I must admit I don't see a lot of grey here so I can go OTT at times. I should say I have nothing against these companies making lots of money, that's how a business should be run. It just saddens me they have gone down a P2W and gambling route as it seems in my eyes. My turn for a rant I guess.
I'm not a fan of the gambling either. It's cheap entertainment and an uncreative way to create content... unless it's an actual poker table, that is. In that case, deal me in.
However, when you look at the goal, there is little difference between rare Tier #X drops in a raid dungeon and blindboxes/gachapon. One costs money directly and the other costs time which extends the number of months of sub they get which is the reason for the rare drops. At least the blindbox is honest about what it is.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Indeed. What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money. It is only fortunate that some people really like RNG.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
In the P2P, you pay in money, as well. It's just one step removed so most people really don't think about it.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I don't see it that way at all. You are extending the argument both involve paying money to both are the same. P2P is not gambling simple as that. However, if you had a card game in a MMO, one that could be played for in game gold, I would be fine with that. It is not the act of gambling, its using real money that gets me. As long as real money is not involved, and its rewards are outside of where the normal gameplay in a MMO occurs, that's fine.
I just started Path of Exile, very impressed so far with the financial model that F2P MMO has. Top down view and point and click movement are not to my taste, but still like it. So there is an example of a F2P game whose financial model I can recommend. Admittedly I have not seen that much of it yet mind you.
I said nothing about P2P being gambling. I was replying directly to your post:
What you pay with money in a F2P game, you pay with time in a P2P game. Both have RNG for the same purpose: to make more money.
Do you really think that the random gear drops in the raid dungeons of gear-dependent games is not done to extend that time factor? Why do you think devs do that, Scot?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It was Quirhad who said that, but no matter. For me, if you can make a F2P MMO that has a fair cash shop, like Turbine's was in the old days or PoE seems to be now, how can P2W and gambling be justified? Why do only some cash shop MMO's need to use revenue systems which go against gaming ethos while others do not?
Clearly devs are trying to extend the time factor in raids, but is that the same as gambling? I would say it was first and foremost to extend end game. If MMO end game was a quest which ended in GAME OVER, I think players would have something to say about that rather quickly. To use your logic in a P2P MMO, if they sent random housing decorations to players every month which cost nothing, would you also equate that to cash shop gambling? Simply having something in end game which involves randomness does not make it as bad as cash shop gambling.
Since when do we talk "sensible" here?
Just on page two i saw the "rng is not truly random hrpaderp" (like anyone would be able to notice) argument and denial of Hawkings "Not only does God definitely play dice, but He sometimes confuses us by throwing them where they can't be seen."
It gets funny when you consider that people look at ye olde days with ridicule where an orc dropped a orc head directly into the inventory for everyone in the group , but have no problems with demons carrying around tokens of pure chivalry with a similar amount mechanic attached to them...
Flame on!
Haah.. you quoted me. Brainfart!
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
I'm old. I get confused easily.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
But it is. One gambles with his money while the other gambles with his time (and by extension, his money). Essentially they are the same thing and the end result is the same: Players spending more money. Like Loktofeit said, atleast the F2P games are more honest about it.
If a P2P game wanted to be more honest in this context it would have to abandon random loot and reward the players with fixed amount of tokens instead. The players could then use the tokens at an NPC vendor for gear. With such a system you can anticipate how many times you have to complete the dungeon in order to get "a full set", for example.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Would having just tokens make the repetitive nature of dungeons and raids too boring? There is excitement in the loot drop, and it's that excitement that at least in part drives players to participate.
Something else to note is that it seems that both the leveling portion and the end game portion of theme park games has shortened over time. Leveling in general has gone from many months to a few months, even for slow players like me. End game raiding has gone from a perpetual activity to something completed in a couple of months at most. The same amount of content is generating less revenue than it used to. It is still a gamble, but it's a less expensive gamble than it used to be.
**
Something else to note. With cash shop items, it is only the "loot boxes" that are like gambling. The player pays their money and they get their 1 chance. The difference between this and dungeons or raids is that the player can run the dungeon or raid many times making the payout a guarantee, not a possibility. That is, unless there are lock outs. If there are lockouts, the player's chance to win is has a ceiling just like with loot boxes. It's a potentially higher ceiling, but it's a ceiling none the less.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well the tokens as raid loot has been tried, it was the way Lotro went and I am sure their not the only one to go that way. I don't think they embraced that system in all raid loot areas mind you. So yes that is fairer than the random drop, but like the lizardbones said, it is not as exciting.
Lets move out of end game, cash shop gambling occurs from day one with lock boxes, how do you equate that with time as money? This is milking players for every cent, not some grand upstanding policy to show players where their money is going.
It is very simple. If you only had to kill a boss once to get everything you wanted, you would be bored of the game in a few weeks, tops. It isn't necessarily about grinding, although that is part of it. More-so it is because MMO's are (or at least should be) long-term investments of time where you slowly acquire gear and power while making friends, exploring the world, and participating in the lore.
Gambling in its truest sense has no place in an MMO, however.
I don't follow you. Lock boxes are not the primary method of advancement in any F2P game (actually, I don't think they are a major part of any game). I can't remember any F2P game where buying lockboxes was mandatory. Usually the cash shop sells equipment or it doesn't. And even you got a major part of your equipment from lockboxes, they are no different from a standard loot drop.
Both have an expected return.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky