Is EQ just nostalgia, or was it really that good?

Icewhite · September 2013

Originally posted by Drailli

Yet never in all my years since have I had the stories, the memories, the laughter and the tears, that I had with those first mmo's. Maybe that is because the horizon is gone, it's all the same now, nothing is new, nothing is out there on the edge. Or maybe it's because I don't feel the connection I did then with the people in the games now. I'll never be able to explain that, so all I can say is, "you had to be there, you had to live it, you had to walk those halls back when they were new, to understand."

Koster suggests that players can (and should) reach an end of a game, or a genre, and some day just stop. The purpose of playing games, what makes them fun, is learning. Once you've mastered a genre, everything there is to learn from it...

Why of course, every new game teaches essentially the exact same lessons, and there's no option to them feeling same same.

Imagine sampling 20 or 30 (free) Parker Brothers board games. You play the first one ravenously. The second feels kind of familiar, though of course there are small mechanic differences. By the tenth, there's just not much more you can ever learn from a board game.

Now imagine putting in five hours a night, every night, consuming those board games. Swapping almost desperately, seeking another that recaptures the magic, always coming up short.

No wonder you don't have the urge to buy many new ones.

"What's changed" isn't even all that difficult to define. How far between endorphin rushes, conquering new mental territory, for a ten year vet?

Drailli · September 2013

Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Drailli

Yet never in all my years since have I had the stories, the memories, the laughter and the tears, that I had with those first mmo's. Maybe that is because the horizon is gone, it's all the same now, nothing is new, nothing is out there on the edge. Or maybe it's because I don't feel the connection I did then with the people in the games now. I'll never be able to explain that, so all I can say is, "you had to be there, you had to live it, you had to walk those halls back when they were new, to understand."

Koster suggests that players can (and should) reach an end of a game, or a genre, and some day just stop. The purpose of playing games, what makes them fun, is learning. Once you've mastered a genre, everything there is to learn from it...

Why of course, every new game teaches essentially the exact same lessons, and there's no option to them feeling same same.

Imagine sampling 20 or 30 (free) Parker Brothers board games. You play the first one ravenously. The second feels kind of familiar, though of course there are small mechanic differences. By the tenth, there's just not much more you can ever learn from a board game.

Now imagine putting in five hours a night, every night, consuming those board games. Swapping almost desperately, seeking another that recaptures the magic, always coming up short.

No wonder you don't have the urge to buy many new ones.

"What's changed" isn't even all that difficult to define. How far between endorphin rushes, conquering new mental territory, for a ten year vet?

This is why I play table tops more now than mmo's it's never the same because someone always does something freaking stupid and you can't program anything to think like a human, yet. "Can I use my craft check to make a home made grapnel and shimmy over the roof to the kings harem?" "You could but why?" "Meh, sounds like it could be fun." "Oh dear god, fine roll your check. Where did I put the stats for the enuchs and palace guard?"

xeniar · September 2013

Originally posted by Drailli
To be fully honest I have never, and most likely will never, have the stories I can tell about any mmo like I did with EQ. In many ways, yes it was better. The GM run events, the community, the need for people to watch your backs, and so many little things made EQ great. The gameplay, the grind, and all that made it what it was, a pain to play, but the fact people still talk about it the way they do, even to today, says something more about the game than can be understood by many who never played it, or picked it up recently.

EQ was one of those games that really called on the player to do a lot of the magic for it. The graphics were crap, the quests were a pain to find, and you spent a lot of time looking for your corpse. I mean it, half your game play could be corpse runs if you sucked. On the other side, there were your friends, your faction, even your enemies that made the game worth playing. There were boat rides where you taught each other a new language. There were stories to be made, adventures to be had, and things you don't find in other mmo's today, a sense of needing other players.

There was a magic that EQ and it's brother and sister mmo's of that era had, and that magic has not quit been found again. It came with the events, the players making their own way, and the stories. The half hour boat rides where we told eachother tales about the things we have done.

To this day, you ask people I know what they have done in mmo's they don't throw out WoW stories, or ToR stories. No they throw out this one time in EQ, or back in UO, or man I got to tell you about this one time I was up a tower in AC and the bunny of death had me treed. Those are the stories I hear. Ask anyone and they will say everything they did in those games were hard one, were a pain to do, and no one would want to really do it all again, but we did them.

If I had to put it into a definition it would be explorer tales, or soldier stories. Because in a way those games, and the people in them, were fighting the first contact wars on a new frontier. Because that is what it was, a new horizon for us all, all be it a virtual one. Many of us played those games when they weren't cool to play them. We explored those worlds, and did those things, and now suddenly, we look out and it's not lonely wilderness anymore. There aren't a half dozen games, and a few hundred thousand players. It's thousands of games and millions of players.

The wilderness is settled, the world has moved on, and we who walked these places long ago, we have settled down in our chair, topped off our mugs, and we tell stories. We talk about the days back when, and we don't really care if anyone listens. We don't care, because those that do listen, those that lift their mugs, they were there too. Everyone else is just new, they weren't there, and no matter how many times they hear the story they never will be there.

Be it explaining chat room rps from the early 90's, or M.U.D.s, or the first MMOs, those days have long since died out. All that remain are the mainstream echos. We watch them, we move through them, but we never really feel a part of them. The magic has faded and the world has lost a bit for it. At least that is what I think.

So no, it's not nostalgia, there was something about it that made it good even though the game was simplistic, repetative, grindy, and above all else frustrating as hell. Yet never in all my years since have I had the stories, the memories, the laughter and the tears, that I had with those first mmo's. Maybe that is because the horizon is gone, it's all the same now, nothing is new, nothing is out there on the edge. Or maybe it's because I don't feel the connection I did then with the people in the games now. I'll never be able to explain that, so all I can say is, "you had to be there, you had to live it, you had to walk those halls back when they were new, to understand."

ive never seen a more well constructed post about the games of old. Man u are right.

by today's standards MMO's of the past where crappy as hell, crappy mechanics grapichs evrything. but we made that world come alive. And because of that it felt like a world.

I doubt devs from today can make a MMO work like that again. i hope one day someone gets it right tho.

Justsomenoob · October 2013

Heh I remember during some downtime between MMOs I thought "eh I'll just check out p99" and ended up getting sucked in for about a year again. Which only has the Kunark expansion btw.

It's still a good game. The end game in classic was pretty bad I always thought, once everyone got stuff locked down. There's a lot of fun to be had on the way though.

Margrave · October 2013

The game was amazing in its day. There was no other 3d mmorpg. It was awesome. I loved the world, lore, and at the time graphics. The game itself had issues though. I hated the death penalty with a bitter passion. I'll never forget the Christmas I was killed while farming aviaks in timerous deep and left no corpse. Took two weeks to get ANY of my stuff back. And even then it wasn't everything I had lost.

For me the game was a love/hate relationship. It had so much good though, I stayed and played through the pain.

I've tried it again last year, and I just can't do it now. The archaic leveling, death, skill acquatition system is just too much for me now that I've seen better. Not to mention the graphics.

I feel I've been spoiled by more recent titles. And even though it will outrage some, I'm quite taken by the current f2p movement. I currently have 15 f2p titles installed. I love paying nothing monthly.

I do have 1 b2p title... I bet you all know which one too.

EQ is a source of great memories, and deep nostalgia for me. I'm looking forward to EQN with hopeful optimism. I can't wait to try out a brand new Norrath. I hope I can be an Erudite Wizard once more . . .

Xthos · October 2013

Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Drailli

Yet never in all my years since have I had the stories, the memories, the laughter and the tears, that I had with those first mmo's. Maybe that is because the horizon is gone, it's all the same now, nothing is new, nothing is out there on the edge. Or maybe it's because I don't feel the connection I did then with the people in the games now. I'll never be able to explain that, so all I can say is, "you had to be there, you had to live it, you had to walk those halls back when they were new, to understand."

Koster suggests that players can (and should) reach an end of a game, or a genre, and some day just stop. The purpose of playing games, what makes them fun, is learning. Once you've mastered a genre, everything there is to learn from it...

Why of course, every new game teaches essentially the exact same lessons, and there's no option to them feeling same same.

Imagine sampling 20 or 30 (free) Parker Brothers board games. You play the first one ravenously. The second feels kind of familiar, though of course there are small mechanic differences. By the tenth, there's just not much more you can ever learn from a board game.

Now imagine putting in five hours a night, every night, consuming those board games. Swapping almost desperately, seeking another that recaptures the magic, always coming up short.

No wonder you don't have the urge to buy many new ones.

"What's changed" isn't even all that difficult to define. How far between endorphin rushes, conquering new mental territory, for a ten year vet?

I have had MMOs that I really liked, many years after my first MMO (UO). It is not rose colored glasses that mmos are generally more casual, and much quicker when it comes to leveling and time put into quests/crafting/housing, and mechanics have changed in a lot of them for combat.

You can argue if that is a good or bad thing, but they are different in the past 6+ years. Sure some core things remain the same, but the journey is very different. I spent as much time in UO/EQ on one aspect of my character, as most people seem to get out of a whole mmo anymore. Those aren't the last mmos I have liked, but just to highlight the difference, and again, some say thank god for this change....Some hate it.

Vorthanion · October 2013

I was not a big fan of the whole camping / raiding focus of the game, but then again, I don't like pure questing as a replacement either. For me, the biggest turn-ons for the game were its world and class / ability / spell designs. Not only for their sheer size and complexity, but also for the plethora of non-combat related skills and spells. One of my biggest gripes about modern MMOs are their singular focus on combat to the point that they have become nothing more than combat simulators with a few doodads tacked on for effect. Which is fine to a point, but I find it really, really out of place for any game that claims to be a deep and thoughtful RPG.

rojoArcueid · October 2013

Originally posted by strangiato2112

What isn't nostalgia though is the long, meaningful leveling process in a fantastic world with fantastic cities, zones, and dungeons.

can you tell me how different was that leveling process? I never played EQ1 but a lot of people say that the leveling in EQ1 was a massive grind. Just killing killing monsters tirelessly until you level. If that was the case then that does not sound fun or meaningful at all. But i never played it myself so im curious to see how the modern mmo leveling differs from the old.

f0dell54 · October 2013

Nostalgia, Bitch!

Xthos · October 2013

Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by strangiato2112

What isn't nostalgia though is the long, meaningful leveling process in a fantastic world with fantastic cities, zones, and dungeons.

can you tell me how different was that leveling process? I never played EQ1 but a lot of people say that the leveling in EQ1 was a massive grind. Just killing killing monsters tirelessly until you level. If that was the case then that does not sound fun or meaningful at all. But i never played it myself so im curious to see how the modern mmo leveling differs from the old.

If serious, the difference mainly was that it was not centered on quests. You had 'good' areas and dungeons to go to for XP. Depending on your class, you could solo or group. People often called a lot of these spots 'camps', that is mainly because EQ had rare spawns and rare roamers, so while you camped these spots for rare spawns, you also got your xp. The rare spawns usually had uncommon drops (wouldn't call them rare).

Everquest had a lot of choices for leveling, and while it was a trinity system, if you were a caster, if you got a mob on you, it could kill you in a couple seconds sometimes...So it could often not be very forgiving. In the open world places that you set up your camps, you often had a rare spawn that was over level for the area, and you had to keep an eye out for it, or it would wack you.

Levels, they did have hell levels (they got rid of them later), where you had to get double the xp to level.

So while you did have xp grind camps, where their wasn't much to be had for rare spawns or loot, you also had camps (usually open world dungeons) that you could push the limit of your group, and you always had the excitement (some hated this) of your environment, where people could screw up, cause trains, run mobs into your group when getting killed...If you had a good group, you could survive and have a good memory of these sticky situations...

Some people hate all of that, but I prefer it, I find instances make me feel like I am playing a lobby game and make the world feel sterilized/not lived in. Sure I had times that were frustrating, but I found older mmos to be more involved, and less forgiving. Not to say you cannot find challenge in newer mmos, but in general they have to set up different difficulties on instances, where as EQ had one difficulty and if you couldn't handle it, you got to die or not do it till you could.

edit: Before someone brings it up, LDoN introduced the instances into EQ and they became more common. I was ok with having an expansion with it, but they became too common imo and the expansions after LDoN really drove me to hate instances for a long time. I also dispise dailies, they make me feel like I have a checklist. I want to get on and not feel I am gimping myself if I want to just go do a dungeon/zone that day...not feel like I have a daily chore list.

sfc1971 · October 2013

Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by rockin_ufo
One of the things I think adds to the complication of a "redo" of Everquest is that the game was obviously designed around a lower population then what we are used to now. I think it was 150k subs? That's chump change for even the lowest MMOs now.

The best way to design an MMO is to aim for a modest amount of players. trying to please everyone means you please no one.

Also, 150k isnt far off average if you throw WoW and GW2 out of the picture.

Lets say that after transactions costs and reductions for longer subscriptions you can get ten bucks per player per month. That is 150.000 * 10 is 1.5 million a month.

That is serious money... for a SMALL company or group of people. But a CEO is going to take a serious chunk of that money, so are investors, a board of directors.

That is why EQ "worked" because back then SOE was still small. Now it isn't and it means 150k subscribers isn't enough anymore. If you look at GW2, that is two companies, two CEO's who need a luxury car.

You can only design for a modest number of players if the bosses and investors are willing to accept modest amounts of income/profit.

Roguewiz · October 2013

EQ was really that good. Heck, to some extent, it still is. My friends and I went back to the game a few months go and leveled fresh characters to 70ish. We enjoyed virtually every minute of it. The AAs are by far still one of the best advancement systems in the genre. The mercenaries are a great addition.

The only reason we aren't playing now is strife. Over the last few years, our gaming styles of diverged a little bit. I'm gung ho, want to try crazy stuff. My friends are a little bit, but not as much as me. This tends to cause problems, since as a Monk, I'd try to see what I can pull off. I did the same stuff in WoW, and some other games, and generally didn't face the same penalty as we do in EQ. Therein was our problem: Hardcore, but too hardcore.

I still have the game installed and occasionally log in to mess around.

Is it nostalgia? To some extent, it is. EQ was my first MMO. Heck, it was my first online game back in the day (circa 1999-2000). Only a few other games give me that feeling of nostalgia (or at the very least, make me thing of the good ole days). Those games are/were (in no particular order): DDO, SWG, DAoC, City of Heroes, Shadowbane, and WAR (briefly)

Vorthanion · October 2013

Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by strangiato2112

What isn't nostalgia though is the long, meaningful leveling process in a fantastic world with fantastic cities, zones, and dungeons.

can you tell me how different was that leveling process? I never played EQ1 but a lot of people say that the leveling in EQ1 was a massive grind. Just killing killing monsters tirelessly until you level. If that was the case then that does not sound fun or meaningful at all. But i never played it myself so im curious to see how the modern mmo leveling differs from the old.

That grind was a two-edged sword. At once antagonizing and agonizing and yet responsible for the much more robust and close knit player community. The grind was only one aspect of that equation though. When you combined slow leveling with slow paced combat and lots of downtime after combat, it created the need to chat to fill the void. My problem with the original game was that it went to the extreme, but now we have games that have gone to the extreme in the opposite direction and I find it even worse. Modern EQ has removed many of the thorns, but kept some of the key components that allow it to be a fun, diverting game with a complex world and complex classes, with what I consider to be the perfect pace for combat and crafting and questing. If I could just get a more modern update to the current game with better graphics and some of the modern conveniences such as right clicking for context menus and a smoother and more modern interface, I would be one very happy gamer.

Needless to say, EQ Next turned out to be a real letdown once they revealed the details after the revamp from the original design. Not so much about the changes to a sandbox as much as the changes to a fast paced combat system and a dumbed down single bar of abilities. I'm afraid that console gaming has taken control of the market and the days of slower paced, more strategic combat and having a plethora of abilities and spells not only to play with on multiple bars, but having plenty that don't even apply directly to combat is a thing of the past. How many modern games offer a really deep and complex class system like EQ? How many offer the sheer number of spells and abilities, let alone all of the neat stuff that can be cast on others and yourself like levitation, invisibility, water breathing, shape changing, running speed, enlarge and shrink, faction change, food and item conjuration, far seeing, light wisps, translocation, blink, identify.... or abilities to scribe spells, feign death, safe fall or even just the ability to do a drive-by heal and buff? Most modern games only offer a fraction of this if any at all and some even go so far as to deter social interaction by making heals and buffs group only.

I had issues with the old games, but I have even more issues with games released in the last few years. It seems the console gamer isn't interested in anything slow paced or virtual worlds or anything more complex than 6 to 8 abilities and how they are combined into combos. I say console gamers, because we PC gamers as a whole don't seem to care that our complex and differentiated platform and the games made for it are being lost to and bastardized by another gaming platform.

Soliloquy · October 2013

Please do not talk about unofficial servers/emulators.

rojoArcueid · October 2013

Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by rojo6934

can you tell me how different was that leveling process? I never played EQ1 but a lot of people say that the leveling in EQ1 was a massive grind. Just killing killing monsters tirelessly until you level. If that was the case then that does not sound fun or meaningful at all. But i never played it myself so im curious to see how the modern mmo leveling differs from the old.

*snip"

ty for the explanation. While that system has some interesting things. It seems that in order yo level up you had to camp a mob populated area and just start killing with no purpose other than grinding exp. I dont like that. The mmo that intoduced me to mmo gaming had that same system and it was depressing to find a good campsite every day to mindlessly slay monsters that have nothing to do with the story of the game or any purpose in the game other than act as piñatas.

I personally prefer questing just because i am being provided with a reason to kill the monsters. With that said, most generic mmos screw the questing system turning it into the mass killing without purpose (kill ten rats, collect 10 asses affair).

I think that camping way of leveling you mentioned from EQ1 could be good if it has an important goal in the game. FOr example, you set up camp at a certain place to ambush the mobs that are planning an invasion on X nearby town. That way i have a meaningful reason to mass slaughter mobs for experience. If i dont do it then the mobs keep going with their attack plans etc etc etc.

Xthos · October 2013

Originally posted by sfc1971
Originally posted by strangiato2112
Originally posted by rockin_ufo
One of the things I think adds to the complication of a "redo" of Everquest is that the game was obviously designed around a lower population then what we are used to now. I think it was 150k subs? That's chump change for even the lowest MMOs now.

The best way to design an MMO is to aim for a modest amount of players. trying to please everyone means you please no one.

Also, 150k isnt far off average if you throw WoW and GW2 out of the picture.

Lets say that after transactions costs and reductions for longer subscriptions you can get ten bucks per player per month. That is 150.000 * 10 is 1.5 million a month.

That is serious money... for a SMALL company or group of people. But a CEO is going to take a serious chunk of that money, so are investors, a board of directors.

That is why EQ "worked" because back then SOE was still small. Now it isn't and it means 150k subscribers isn't enough anymore. If you look at GW2, that is two companies, two CEO's who need a luxury car.

You can only design for a modest number of players if the bosses and investors are willing to accept modest amounts of income/profit.

Yes, but EQ ended up with a lot more than that, but a niche game made now, if given a nice budget could be targeted at 500k easily imo. Camelot I think is doing the lower number of 25 - 50k target probably, but their budget suffers from that low of a target, and they also do not have even PvE....So a decent budget, targeting 500k could be very profitable, if you hit your niche.

That is the problem, when you aim for a niche, if you miss, you end up with a real disaster, if you kind of use buckshot, and make a generic mmo, your floor is higher for making a bad game. People do not like to risk their money, the niche game, if successful would most likely make more money, for a longer time imo, but the generic casual mmo you do not risk as much. You would have to be a good salesman and have credibility to get someone to back a niche product, verse a buckshot casual.

I think if you made a good fantasy niche game, you could actually hit a steady and growing 1 million subs easy, I hate to use it, because it invites the multiple sub debate, but if Eve can get 550k subs or whatever they have, in a genre that is not as big as fantasy, then a niche fantasy mmo done right could easily hit 1 million+. Just before anyone says anything, by niche, I do not mean it has to be pvp or a eve fantasy clone. Gaming has a much bigger audience than it did when EQ was in its heyday, 1 million people now is like probably doing 100k or less then...You have more competition, but a lot of it is game hopper material.

PGrimm · October 2013

Me personally, I think it was kinda all of the above.. I mean, was it/ is it because of nostalgia, sure, was it really that good heck yeah. One could argue, prior to this game there was really no game that " forced" group mechanics on the player base, that forced us all to work together, to accomplish small tasks. Hell, I remember having a group of 5 people just so we could make the trek from Kelethin, to Freeport, and we all were so excited like we really were going somewhere, and honestly after the 45 minutes it took to get there, you felt like you did really go somewhere. Sure you had mmo's and mud's prior to this, but nothing graphical.. closest thing would have been Ultima Online, which you could seriously solo your whole life if you wish... EQ, that wasn't happening. sure in hindsight fighting a lvl 5 wasp outside of Kelethin, or that lvl 8 croc in North Ro wasn't realistic, but damn man, it sure was fun!

I think the times were different, I mean in the late 90's ( most of us in our late 30'-40's and + would agree) sure we had technology, we had beepers, big huge bricks for cell phones that no one could afford, so we were accustomed to "working" more for rewards... as so technology has made life easier, I think its also made us lazier a bit, and thats where the instant gratification comes into play. Business is business, and is going to do whatever it takes to make the dollar. I mean as tech improved, and people became accustomed to more tech and multi tasking... quick knowledge, so too di our way of life... hence our ever changing needs of being entertained.

I would love for a game company, to take us on a trip, back to the old days of game play, just with todays technology/graphics. However they don't make more of us 30+ year old gamers, if anything thru dying off, loosing interest in the modern games, the genre is slowly moving more to instant gratification via the younger generation, who mind you had all this technology since they were babies, and generally don't know what it means, to work at anything towards a reward. They seem to think, just showing up they should get the + 3 sword, I mean my mom and dad pay 15 dollars a month for this game for me, why shouldn't i get this +3 sword now... or else i will go to the other game that will give it to me... ( hence the pressure on the gaming industry to give rewards for nothing, cause they want the dollar- they don't care if its a 15 y/o kid or his 40 y/o parents who pay)..

I expect the trend to continue... free to play, box to play... has cemented it. its here to stay, i just wish there would be a game company that looked out for us older players or people who want more challenge which actually entertained us, much like aarp looks out for their prospective target group.

Just my opinion... and you know what they say about opinions....

spades07 · November 2013

I always had a love/hate thing with Everquest.
It had it's bad elements, but it did have it's good elements too.
All the classes, a fascinating world to explore, captivating weapon system- people knew what a wurmslayer or a ssoy was, it had some depth too- getting keys for areas, words for spells, watching your encumberment on a monk, feign-death pulls, mezzing.

But yeah bad elements less spoken about were numerous too. Cryptic world,camping really long periods of time, bugs, stuff like summoning and bashes, levelling up was nightmarishly slow-people would celebrate at little points of blue advancing, and planes of power- the car crash of an expansion that was.

Justsomenoob · November 2013

Originally posted by spades07
I always had a love/hate thing with Everquest.
It had it's bad elements, but it did have it's good elements too.
All the classes, a fascinating world to explore, captivating weapon system- people knew what a wurmslayer or a ssoy was, it had some depth too- getting keys for areas, words for spells, watching your encumberment on a monk, feign-death pulls, mezzing.

But yeah bad elements less spoken about were numerous too. Cryptic world,camping really long periods of time, bugs, stuff like summoning and bashes, levelling up was nightmarishly slow-people would celebrate at little points of blue advancing, and planes of power- the car crash of an expansion that was.

Thing is, compare how much enjoyment you can get out of the game before being irritated by certain things about it...vs what you get out of the average themepark game today.

You can max, raid, gear up, get bored, and unsub in a themepark game today in the time it took in EQ to level from 1-25 while having fun. (in classic)

darkhalf357x · November 2013

Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by strangiato2112

What isn't nostalgia though is the long, meaningful leveling process in a fantastic world with fantastic cities, zones, and dungeons.

can you tell me how different was that leveling process? I never played EQ1 but a lot of people say that the leveling in EQ1 was a massive grind. Just killing killing monsters tirelessly until you level. If that was the case then that does not sound fun or meaningful at all. But i never played it myself so im curious to see how the modern mmo leveling differs from the old.

That grind was a two-edged sword. At once antagonizing and agonizing and yet responsible for the much more robust and close knit player community. The grind was only one aspect of that equation though. When you combined slow leveling with slow paced combat and lots of downtime after combat, it created the need to chat to fill the void. My problem with the original game was that it went to the extreme, but now we have games that have gone to the extreme in the opposite direction and I find it even worse. Modern EQ has removed many of the thorns, but kept some of the key components that allow it to be a fun, diverting game with a complex world and complex classes, with what I consider to be the perfect pace for combat and crafting and questing. If I could just get a more modern update to the current game with better graphics and some of the modern conveniences such as right clicking for context menus and a smoother and more modern interface, I would be one very happy gamer.

Needless to say, EQ Next turned out to be a real letdown once they revealed the details after the revamp from the original design. Not so much about the changes to a sandbox as much as the changes to a fast paced combat system and a dumbed down single bar of abilities. I'm afraid that console gaming has taken control of the market and the days of slower paced, more strategic combat and having a plethora of abilities and spells not only to play with on multiple bars, but having plenty that don't even apply directly to combat is a thing of the past. How many modern games offer a really deep and complex class system like EQ? How many offer the sheer number of spells and abilities, let alone all of the neat stuff that can be cast on others and yourself like levitation, invisibility, water breathing, shape changing, running speed, enlarge and shrink, faction change, food and item conjuration, far seeing, light wisps, translocation, blink, identify.... or abilities to scribe spells, feign death, safe fall or even just the ability to do a drive-by heal and buff? Most modern games only offer a fraction of this if any at all and some even go so far as to deter social interaction by making heals and buffs group only.

I had issues with the old games, but I have even more issues with games released in the last few years. It seems the console gamer isn't interested in anything slow paced or virtual worlds or anything more complex than 6 to 8 abilities and how they are combined into combos. I say console gamers, because we PC gamers as a whole don't seem to care that our complex and differentiated platform and the games made for it are being lost to and bastardized by another gaming platform.

I agree and we'll said. I didn't play EQ back in the day but I am playing it now and loving it more than all the current MMOs. Slow combat. Large world. Complex character building. You don't get that anymore. The graphics agreed are dated as well as the character models, but they have included modern mechanics that make it easily playable.

But what I really love is the character progression. A real ranger - one that can melee and has bow skills along with Druid magic. Games today pigeon hole. Ranger just means you are ranged. I had to play several characters to mid teens just to see what I liked since they played differently and had different skills. Ended up with a rogue which I like.

epic quests that span the world and include more than just killing mobs. And like mentioned above the alternate advancement system. Games today duplicated everything except that.

your not reaching max level in a week and is probably one of the reasons (outside the obviously dated look) that people don't play anymore.

Archeage, black desert(?), and other so called sand parks don't seem to get this. With all the kick starters I hope someone tries to kick up an updated version of EQ depth mechanics. I'd have my one MMO I'd play for years.

MadDemon64 · November 2013

While I can't speak for Everquest, I can say that ever since I redownloaded EQ2 after not playing it since it was vanilla EQ2 and most of the f2p restrictions being lifted, I have enjoyed myself, far more than other titles like Aion or SWTOR (or it has at least held my interest longer).

Don't know if that counts for anything.

Flyte27 · December 2013

I did try EQ2 when it came out, but it was not for me. The main problem was the instancing, the restrictions in combat, and the massive nerfing of spells. You could no longer help someone without them consenting. There was no competition for loot/loot spots. The spells like Spirit of the Wolf had shorter durations and didn't work in combat. All buffers were heavily nerfed to the point of not being very enjoyable to me.

Everquest 1 has a much different feel and having played it again it was that good. It was better before the expansions. I think a lot of it had to do with the community and how people were forced to interact with one another. It was hard not to get involved one way or another for bad or for good. Things like trains for example were frustrating, but exciting at the same time. Just exploring the world and seeing people doing things like kiting (which I likely wouldn't have thought of) was pretty amazing. There were so many things that people were inventing through creativity alone. You don't see that in MMOs these days. It's really restricted in what you can do. It's a very controlled experience. EQ2 really started a move in that direction.

swedago · December 2013

Everquest made the MMO world popular (UO was the first, but did not catch on).

What made it great was the community. Everyone was helpful. People were polite. People worked together.

The MMOs are getting worse due to the community. F2P is ruining the whole concept with their hidden costs.

I have played, or at least tried, every MMO that has come out since. I find myself playing less and less.

swedago · December 2013

Originally posted by Flyte27
I did try EQ2 when it came out, but it was not for me. The main problem was the instancing, the restrictions in combat, and the massive nerfing of spells. You could no longer help someone without them consenting. There was no competition for loot/loot spots. The spells like Spirit of the Wolf had shorter durations and didn't work in combat. All buffers were heavily nerfed to the point of not being very enjoyable to me.

Everquest 1 has a much different feel and having played it again it was that good. It was better before the expansions. I think a lot of it had to do with the community and how people were forced to interact with one another. It was hard not to get involved one way or another for bad or for good. Things like trains for example were frustrating, but exciting at the same time. Just exploring the world and seeing people doing things like kiting (which I likely wouldn't have thought of) was pretty amazing. There were so many things that people were inventing through creativity alone. You don't see that in MMOs these days. It's really restricted in what you can do. It's a very controlled experience. EQ2 really started a move in that direction.

OP is talking about eq1

Nadia · December 2013

I played EQ when it launched

I also returned to EQ when SOE relaunched the progression servers

in 2006 (Sleeper server) and in 2011 (Fippy)

it was more than nostalgia for me because playing on the new classic servers w no expansions was alot of fun

I didn't play longer than a month on the new servers primarily because it was a low population

mmos need both to be fun, adventure and other players

you don't need wow #s

but it does help to have several hundred actively playing on same server

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Is EQ just nostalgia, or was it really that good?

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Is EQ just nostalgia, or was it really that good?

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