There are enough "gimme-now!" kiddies out there to buy up these games to satisfy their ADHD for the month and move on, that is why these games still exist.
My problem is where is the indie developer who wants to cash in on the niche crowd that wants the next old school EQ style MMORPG? They have to know there is a demand for this type of game and the only way we will get it is through indie because all the big devs are trying to cash in on this console generation. And make no mistake, there is a direct correlation between everything going cross-platform and the continuing dumbing down of MMO's. Yes I know, I am a pc elitist..../roll eyes.
And the problem is not just with MMO's, it is the Elder Scrolls types as well. Oblivion and Skyrim are so dumbed down compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall it is pathetic....but boy they look pretty and you can get them for that Xbox and PS. I long for a game where I overhear someone talking about a mysterious cave to the north and it is NOT magically located on my map and a magic arrow guiding me there does NOT appear. Make me find the thing! When you lose difficulty you also lose immersion, and that is what games like this have always been about.
It has absolutely zero to do with consoles , just wish people would accept that and stop spouting carp all over the forum.
I have a 360 controller and I use 40 skills from said controller on SWTOR a PC only MMORPG. Nuff said.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
It does have to do with Consoles though.
Look, I am not a PC Elitist. I love my consoles AND my PC. Console games have generally conditioned players into very easy games where you will "win" if you just play. It didnt used to be this way- And not all of the console games are like this either...Just generally speaking.
In the olden days I played my RPGs on PC because of the sheer depth and the Console for most other things. Thelast generation these are all merging and its to the exclusion of depth and challenge for the most part.
The persons observation about Morrowind is spot on... I hated Oblivion but actually enjoyed Skyrim but its no Morrowind and is very, very easy. As PCs are becoming (have become) mainstream there is a new type of player who is now the majority and they want to feel "bad ass" and "win" no matter what. If they cannot "figure it out" or "master it" immediatley, they go on to the next shiney game which makes them feel "bad Ass".
I love my console but I also understand what many are saying about console gamers (even though I am one...)
It's pretty sad that I find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (it's a great game and I would suggest it to anyone looking for a different type of themepark), a themepark MMO created quite a while ago to be better than any other themepark out in the current market, simply because I am tired of MMOs being so obnoxiously easy. You're a winner no matter what! Yes, people play MMOs for fun so horrid death penalties are probably not the answer, but taking away a bit of exp. for dying isn't that big of a deal so I don't see why when there is just a bit of punishment in an MMO people seem to have massive freak outs and say things like 'this game is gonna fail so hard!"
It took me a good three days to wrap my head around Diplomacy in Vanguard because no one could explain it to me very well, but several explanations later and lots of practicing and testing of cards, and I finally managed to figure it out. To me, that was extremely satisfying. My hand wasn't held and I had to think for myself and figure stuff out.
Everyone asks for something different from WoW easy-mode and when they get it they cry like little babies. Make up your mind people. It's either going to be a game made for adults with some consequences and no hand-holding to make it that much more satisfying in the end, or you can go play some more WoW type MMOs where everything is just handed to you on a big ol' silver platter. I'm sure that's super satisfying in the self achievement department.
what exactly made you think that game was made for adults again?
guess vanguard was made for kids, bad luck.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
It's pretty sad that I find Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (it's a great game and I would suggest it to anyone looking for a different type of themepark), a themepark MMO created quite a while ago to be better than any other themepark out in the current market, simply because I am tired of MMOs being so obnoxiously easy. You're a winner no matter what! Yes, people play MMOs for fun so horrid death penalties are probably not the answer, but taking away a bit of exp. for dying isn't that big of a deal so I don't see why when there is just a bit of punishment in an MMO people seem to have massive freak outs and say things like 'this game is gonna fail so hard!"
It took me a good three days to wrap my head around Diplomacy in Vanguard because no one could explain it to me very well, but several explanations later and lots of practicing and testing of cards, and I finally managed to figure it out. To me, that was extremely satisfying. My hand wasn't held and I had to think for myself and figure stuff out.
Everyone asks for something different from WoW easy-mode and when they get it they cry like little babies. Make up your mind people. It's either going to be a game made for adults with some consequences and no hand-holding to make it that much more satisfying in the end, or you can go play some more WoW type MMOs where everything is just handed to you on a big ol' silver platter. I'm sure that's super satisfying in the self achievement department.
makes it easier to predict what they will need to develop next. Lame way of saying we are not wanting to develop something unique to gaming
Everyone asks for something different from WoW easy-mode and when they get it they cry like little babies. Make up your mind people. It's either going to be a game made for adults with some consequences and no hand-holding to make it that much more satisfying in the end, or you can go play some more WoW type MMOs where everything is just handed to you on a big ol' silver platter. I'm sure that's super satisfying in the self achievement department.
what exactly made you think that game was made for adults again?
guess vanguard was made for kids, bad luck.
Age ratings don't have anything to do with complexity. There's no inappropriate content (well, outside of chat) that would stop an 8 year old from playing EVE but that doesn't mean it's really suitable for small kids.
To be honest though we can't blame the kids mostly. Plenty of adults lap up WoW-clone type games or Call of Duty and love games that make them feel like winners and badasses without much thought on their part. I could even go into the rising anti-intellectualism in the culture in general but that's probably going too far on my own tangent
Vanguard had a lot of issues at launch from what I've heard (and it's sad because it's evolved into a very quality MMO that few people play) but also sadly it seems the message publishers took from it's launch disaster was "thinking person's MMOs won't sell."
I'm in agreeance OP though I don't think many are asking for it, I think devs assume that's the way to go because of *ahem*. As long as the game is fun a "hard" experience to learn will not turn people off IMO. Look at LoL (for the sake of this subject MMO status doesn't matter). When you first play you die, a lot. But it's highly successful regardless.
The icons and Vegas style notification systems are a bit annoying too. Not that for any other reason that they make the gameplay less exciting. Why the point of accomplishing something if it's nearly done for you?
There are enough "gimme-now!" kiddies out there to buy up these games to satisfy their ADHD for the month and move on, that is why these games still exist.
My problem is where is the indie developer who wants to cash in on the niche crowd that wants the next old school EQ style MMORPG? They have to know there is a demand for this type of game and the only way we will get it is through indie because all the big devs are trying to cash in on this console generation. And make no mistake, there is a direct correlation between everything going cross-platform and the continuing dumbing down of MMO's. Yes I know, I am a pc elitist..../roll eyes.
And the problem is not just with MMO's, it is the Elder Scrolls types as well. Oblivion and Skyrim are so dumbed down compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall it is pathetic....but boy they look pretty and you can get them for that Xbox and PS. I long for a game where I overhear someone talking about a mysterious cave to the north and it is NOT magically located on my map and a magic arrow guiding me there does NOT appear. Make me find the thing! When you lose difficulty you also lose immersion, and that is what games like this have always been about.
It has absolutely zero to do with consoles , just wish people would accept that and stop spouting carp all over the forum.
I have a 360 controller and I use 40 skills from said controller on SWTOR a PC only MMORPG. Nuff said.
Cheers,
BadOrb.
So because you use a 360 controller to play an MMO cross platforming has nothing to do with how dumbed down pc gaming has become? Awesome argument dude. Next you will tell me the sky is really orange because you drank orange juice with your breakfast.
WoW. A lot of epeen stroking in this thread. You guys ever raid heroic? Where is your Sunwell kill? What level of Fractals are you on in GW2?
Hells yeah the game is easy for beginners - if you want EQ where you die in Halas a few dozen times its not happening. But you know what - soon as you get started in EQ - the game became easier. All you needed was a lot of patience. Skill wise its certainly not tougher then modern ARPGS and even WoW. These modern games that people are bashing..
THEY ARE MUCH BETTER. Truth. Console gamers overall are also far more skilled. This is something you learned if you played a lot of WoW. A lot of the younger players have better reactions and quicker to pick up the game in general then the old EQ vets. I'd say most of the people on this thread are full of it..
These games aren't easy at the end. Its easy to play but HARD TO MASTER. And its hard. Whats your arena rating in WoW? Yeah ... likely you guys don't have one. People are way to quick to gripe - and way to quick to make assumptions.
You will play all those games regardless you say in this forum or anywhere else.
Hype will always get to you and the fact stays the same as long as I live - everyone will always come back to these kind of games. Period.
/end
I think it is more hope mixed with delusion than hypocrisy.
Having played the original MMOs many people can feel how vapid and placating the genre has become over the last few years.
They hope to find some of the challenge and engagement they felt in the old school MMOs and delude themselves that maybe the new MMOs will offer something beyond the largely forgettable Adventurer DayCare game experience that is all the rage with the casual, I can't be bothered to read, think, concentrate or god forbid learn anything MMO crowd.
Originally posted by fivoroth MMOs have always been easy. If you want challenging games which require skill, tactics and/or strategy, MMOs are not for you. MMOs are just mindless grind (which virtually takes 0 skill) to collect items and increase numbers on your spreadsheet...I mean character sheet. It's like a virtual world where people grind to dress up their barbies....characters!
I am sorry you had such a boring MMO experience. Maybe you should try more PvP based MMOs especially ones with a significant penalty / loss on death.
WoW. A lot of epeen stroking in this thread. You guys ever raid heroic? Where is your Sunwell kill? What level of Fractals are you on in GW2?
Hells yeah the game is easy for beginners - if you want EQ where you die in Halas a few dozen times its not happening. But you know what - soon as you get started in EQ - the game became easier. All you needed was a lot of patience. Skill wise its certainly not tougher then modern ARPGS and even WoW. These modern games that people are bashing..
THEY ARE MUCH BETTER. Truth. Console gamers overall are also far more skilled. This is something you learned if you played a lot of WoW. A lot of the younger players have better reactions and quicker to pick up the game in general then the old EQ vets. I'd say most of the people on this thread are full of it..
These games aren't easy at the end. Its easy to play but HARD TO MASTER. And its hard. Whats your arena rating in WoW? Yeah ... likely you guys don't have one. People are way to quick to gripe - and way to quick to make assumptions.
I agree with your view of "End Game" challenge but sadly that makes up less than 10% of the content of the game. So what you have is a game that is 90%+ mind-numbingly easy that you have to play through to reach the small amount of challenging content which is restricted to a handful of Raid encounters and arenas.
Why can the game have challenge all the way through, why it is restricted to only max level ?
Why can't we have really difficult quests at 10th level ?
Why can't it have dangerous travelling like EQ did ?
Why can't losing a fight result in something beyond a 30 second delay as you run back to respawn ?
Sadly after playing these games forever I can answer my own question...
Why ? ..... Because a niche genre of challenging group based Multplayer games was overrun by a hoard of challenge averse, disinterested, immature players that had fists full of dollars.
WoW. A lot of epeen stroking in this thread. You guys ever raid heroic? Where is your Sunwell kill? What level of Fractals are you on in GW2?
Hells yeah the game is easy for beginners - if you want EQ where you die in Halas a few dozen times its not happening. But you know what - soon as you get started in EQ - the game became easier. All you needed was a lot of patience. Skill wise its certainly not tougher then modern ARPGS and even WoW. These modern games that people are bashing..
THEY ARE MUCH BETTER. Truth. Console gamers overall are also far more skilled. This is something you learned if you played a lot of WoW. A lot of the younger players have better reactions and quicker to pick up the game in general then the old EQ vets. I'd say most of the people on this thread are full of it..
These games aren't easy at the end. Its easy to play but HARD TO MASTER. And its hard. Whats your arena rating in WoW? Yeah ... likely you guys don't have one. People are way to quick to gripe - and way to quick to make assumptions.
MMORPG's are easier than they originally were. That is a fact.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
WoW. A lot of epeen stroking in this thread. You guys ever raid heroic? Where is your Sunwell kill? What level of Fractals are you on in GW2?
Hells yeah the game is easy for beginners - if you want EQ where you die in Halas a few dozen times its not happening. But you know what - soon as you get started in EQ - the game became easier. All you needed was a lot of patience. Skill wise its certainly not tougher then modern ARPGS and even WoW. These modern games that people are bashing..
THEY ARE MUCH BETTER. Truth. Console gamers overall are also far more skilled. This is something you learned if you played a lot of WoW. A lot of the younger players have better reactions and quicker to pick up the game in general then the old EQ vets. I'd say most of the people on this thread are full of it..
These games aren't easy at the end. Its easy to play but HARD TO MASTER. And its hard. Whats your arena rating in WoW? Yeah ... likely you guys don't have one. People are way to quick to gripe - and way to quick to make assumptions.
I agree with your view of "End Game" challenge but sadly that makes up less than 10% of the content of the game. So what you have is a game that is 90%+ mind-numbingly easy that you have to play through to reach the small amount of challenging content which is restricted to a handful of Raid encounters and arenas.
Why can the game have challenge all the way through, why it is restricted to only max level ?
Why can't we have really difficult quests at 10th level ?
Why can't it have dangerous travelling like EQ did ?
Why can't losing a fight result in something beyond a 30 second delay as you run back to respawn ?
Sadly after playing these games forever I can answer my own question...
Why ? ..... Because a niche genre of challenging group based Multplayer games was overrun by a hoard of challenge averse, disinterested, immature players that had fists full of dollars.
The reason why is that developers want to make money. It's that simple. Like I said in another thread World of Warcraft discovered harder early content turned players off. They simply tracked who played - how much the played - when they quit and why.
They discovered overwhelming that people quit early on because they were too confused or thought something was too hard. Don't get me wrong - WoW takes it too far - making the entire leveling process face roll. But the general idea of getting players hooked in before raising the difficulty is very sound economically. (I think GW2 gets the leveling balance much better. There are plenty of champions around if you want challenge..)
The sooner people understand this (the economic realities of the game) - the sooner they can go back to enjoying MMOs..IMHO. EQ - and I loved EQ was a niche product. The reason was that it was far too punishing.
It wasn't really hard - just punishing BTW. People are confusing this. If you waited for groups and were careful you would never die - and it didn't take a lot of skill to level. You just had a few buttons to push. It didn't use a very sophisiticated combat system. Patience and friends were the major difficulties in EQ - the gameplay itself was actually easier then WoW and a lot easier then the new action RPGs like Tera or GW2. There is a ton LESS skill involved. Go watch early EQ videos.
WoW. A lot of epeen stroking in this thread. You guys ever raid heroic? Where is your Sunwell kill? What level of Fractals are you on in GW2?
Hells yeah the game is easy for beginners - if you want EQ where you die in Halas a few dozen times its not happening. But you know what - soon as you get started in EQ - the game became easier. All you needed was a lot of patience. Skill wise its certainly not tougher then modern ARPGS and even WoW. These modern games that people are bashing..
THEY ARE MUCH BETTER. Truth. Console gamers overall are also far more skilled. This is something you learned if you played a lot of WoW. A lot of the younger players have better reactions and quicker to pick up the game in general then the old EQ vets. I'd say most of the people on this thread are full of it..
These games aren't easy at the end. Its easy to play but HARD TO MASTER. And its hard. Whats your arena rating in WoW? Yeah ... likely you guys don't have one. People are way to quick to gripe - and way to quick to make assumptions.
MMORPG's are easier than they originally were. That is a fact.
In your mind only. Don't confuse 'punishing' with ease of play. Early MMOs were modeled more on MUDs and were fairly pathetic 'game wise.' Sure it's easier to level now. But the difficulties of MMOs back then were all social and lore ones. You needed friends and needed to know where to go.
The difficulty of modern MMOs is found in a different place. They are action oriented - some would call it twitch based and leverage traditional video game skills into the MMO. The kind of guys that could set high scores on pac-man or another old time arcade game can now enjoy MMOs. Where before it was pretty much for the hardcore fantasy enthusiast.
The game play was simple. The main thing you needed was patience and a lot of 'outside the game" knowledge (theory crafting) about how the game worked. The game itself was pathetically simple - albeit punishing. Go back and watch some early EQ videos to see.
I've never looked at XP loss as anything more than a device to string players along (sub longer). Perma Death, combat fatigue/wounds and corpse looting at least make some sense. XP loss and level loss were poorly used devices IMO.
I disagree.
Permadeath is not why most players play these games and it's a very small group of people who would be interested. And for the record I "could" be interested if done well.
looting? Seriously? From what I see looting is a slap on the hand. As many people who are "pro-looting" like to point out, the games designed around looting are less gear dependent so essentially anything that is looted can usually be replaced quite easily.
as it just so happens, that is exactly what happened to me in my small stint with dark fall. Was killed and looted and I ran back to my vault and geared up from the copious amounts of gear that I put in there and that was that.
I prefer xp loss. Vanguard has it and Lineage 2 has it and I never fought so hard as when I knew I was going to die and lose my progression.
Something has to have worth and has to be something that you are not willing to lose to make it important.
I still don't see the point of the mechanic, what does it represent? There are plenty of forms of meaningful loss that don't include wiping away past progression (SWG's item decay as an example). It's largely a PVE focused device for games that are largely PVE based (which makes it make even less sense to me to be used in L2) . Then again L2 was a grinders game..
The most practical reason I can see the original EQ and games like it using it, is that the bulk of the game is in the adventure. The most meaningful thing in the game is achieving that next level (By design) during your long crawl to cap. When that's the chief mechanic that keeps people playing, what better way to keep them playing than taking those levels away. as well as progression toward them?
The point is that it's something that is essentially a part of your progression that you never want to lose; thus making it very important.
Things like Item decay can be important but if not done well they an either be a "penalty for the rich" where wealthy players don't really care as they have the money "and then some" to wipe away the damage or else cripple a player where they don't have money to repair their gear or even replace it.
The highlighted part is my point.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
WoW. A lot of epeen stroking in this thread. You guys ever raid heroic? Where is your Sunwell kill? What level of Fractals are you on in GW2?
Hells yeah the game is easy for beginners - if you want EQ where you die in Halas a few dozen times its not happening. But you know what - soon as you get started in EQ - the game became easier. All you needed was a lot of patience. Skill wise its certainly not tougher then modern ARPGS and even WoW. These modern games that people are bashing..
THEY ARE MUCH BETTER. Truth. Console gamers overall are also far more skilled. This is something you learned if you played a lot of WoW. A lot of the younger players have better reactions and quicker to pick up the game in general then the old EQ vets. I'd say most of the people on this thread are full of it..
These games aren't easy at the end. Its easy to play but HARD TO MASTER. And its hard. Whats your arena rating in WoW? Yeah ... likely you guys don't have one. People are way to quick to gripe - and way to quick to make assumptions.
MMORPG's are easier than they originally were. That is a fact.
In your mind only. Don't confuse 'punishing' with ease of play. Early MMOs were modeled more on MUDs and were fairly pathetic 'game wise.' Sure it's easier to level now. But the difficulties of MMOs back then were all social and lore ones. You needed friends and needed to know where to go.
The difficulty of modern MMOs is found in a different place. They are action oriented - some would call it twitch based and leverage traditional video game skills into the MMO. The kind of guys that could set high scores on pac-man or another old time arcade game can now enjoy MMOs. Where before it was pretty much for the hardcore fantasy enthusiast.
The game play was simple. The main thing you needed was patience and a lot of 'outside the game" knowledge (theory crafting) about how the game worked. The game itself was pathetically simple - albeit punishing. Go back and watch some early EQ videos to see.
UO was more action oriented than WOW. So was SWG. What makes modern mmorpgs more difficult?
Minecraft is more difficult than modern mmo's.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Simple answer is MMOs are more complicated than some people give them credit for. Slightly more detailed answer would be that not everyone has years of experience playing games and it's good design to actually teach people how to play whilst they play rather than have them read about it like days of old.
Originally posted by ozmono Simple answer is MMOs are more complicated than some people give them credit for. Slightly more detailed answer would be that not everyone has years of experience playing games and it's good design to actually teach people how to play whilst they play rather than have them read about it like days of old.
The exclamation points over npc's with neon arrows leading you all the way to your 'quest" that just happens to lead to the next hub lol. My wife has only played one mmorpg and laughs at this. Plus all the soul bound no trade crap that we all get punished for makes her think we're all morons. Candy Crush is more complicated to her.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by ozmono Simple answer is MMOs are more complicated than some people give them credit for. Slightly more detailed answer would be that not everyone has years of experience playing games and it's good design to actually teach people how to play whilst they play rather than have them read about it like days of old.
The exclamation points over npc's with neon arrows leading you all the way to your 'quest" that just happens to lead to the next hub lol. My wife has only played one mmorpg and laughs at this. Plus all the soul bound no trade crap that we all get punished for makes her think we're all morons. Candy Crush is more complicated to her.
And that's why they (quest hubs and so on) are the first things you learn. Quest in the beginning are normally the tools to teach you more so it would be foolish in the extreme if they were not simple.
If you are suggesting the MMOs as a whole are as simple as one of their most basic features than I would have to disagree and I don't really care to argue about it.
Originally posted by ozmono Simple answer is MMOs are more complicated than some people give them credit for. Slightly more detailed answer would be that not everyone has years of experience playing games and it's good design to actually teach people how to play whilst they play rather than have them read about it like days of old.
The exclamation points over npc's with neon arrows leading you all the way to your 'quest" that just happens to lead to the next hub lol. My wife has only played one mmorpg and laughs at this. Plus all the soul bound no trade crap that we all get punished for makes her think we're all morons. Candy Crush is more complicated to her.
And that's why they (quest hubs and so on) are the first things you learn. Quest in the beginning are normally the tools to teach you more so it would be foolish in the extreme if they were not simple.
If you are suggesting the MMOs as a whole are as simple as one of their most basic features than I would have to disagree and I don't really care to argue about it.
So the target audience for MMOs has sunken so low that clicking on the thing with the floating exclamation point and following the glowing arrows on the map is considered learning how to play ? lol that's awesome...
Originally posted by ozmono Simple answer is MMOs are more complicated than some people give them credit for. Slightly more detailed answer would be that not everyone has years of experience playing games and it's good design to actually teach people how to play whilst they play rather than have them read about it like days of old.
The exclamation points over npc's with neon arrows leading you all the way to your 'quest" that just happens to lead to the next hub lol. My wife has only played one mmorpg and laughs at this. Plus all the soul bound no trade crap that we all get punished for makes her think we're all morons. Candy Crush is more complicated to her.
And that's why they (quest hubs and so on) are the first things you learn. Quest in the beginning are normally the tools to teach you more so it would be foolish in the extreme if they were not simple.
If you are suggesting the MMOs as a whole are as simple as one of their most basic features than I would have to disagree and I don't really care to argue about it.
So the target audience for MMOs has sunken so low that clicking on the thing with the floating exclamation point and following the glowing arrows on the map is considered learning how to play ? lol that's awesome...
I don't appreciate being laughed at and made out to be an idiot by anyone. I'm not sure if you don't understand what I'm saying and you think I'm an idiot and that's funny, if you are trying to provoke me into responding to a conversation that I already said I don't care to have or if you are trying to reduce a very simple concept to something extremely ridiculous because you have some other motive. Either way I don't like it.
Now incase you just misunderstood me because I didn't properly explain than think of it this way. Just because the very first word you learn (mum, dad or whatever) is simple it doesn't mean the entire language is. Same is true for MMOs.
Because they Have children playing them. in fact i think its the majority of the sales is children. Look for one that does not have a mmo game not theme towards tildran children. good luck too
Comments
It does have to do with Consoles though.
Look, I am not a PC Elitist. I love my consoles AND my PC. Console games have generally conditioned players into very easy games where you will "win" if you just play. It didnt used to be this way- And not all of the console games are like this either...Just generally speaking.
In the olden days I played my RPGs on PC because of the sheer depth and the Console for most other things. Thelast generation these are all merging and its to the exclusion of depth and challenge for the most part.
The persons observation about Morrowind is spot on... I hated Oblivion but actually enjoyed Skyrim but its no Morrowind and is very, very easy. As PCs are becoming (have become) mainstream there is a new type of player who is now the majority and they want to feel "bad ass" and "win" no matter what. If they cannot "figure it out" or "master it" immediatley, they go on to the next shiney game which makes them feel "bad Ass".
I love my console but I also understand what many are saying about console gamers (even though I am one...)
what exactly made you think that game was made for adults again?
guess vanguard was made for kids, bad luck.
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
makes it easier to predict what they will need to develop next. Lame way of saying we are not wanting to develop something unique to gaming
Age ratings don't have anything to do with complexity. There's no inappropriate content (well, outside of chat) that would stop an 8 year old from playing EVE but that doesn't mean it's really suitable for small kids.
To be honest though we can't blame the kids mostly. Plenty of adults lap up WoW-clone type games or Call of Duty and love games that make them feel like winners and badasses without much thought on their part. I could even go into the rising anti-intellectualism in the culture in general but that's probably going too far on my own tangent
Vanguard had a lot of issues at launch from what I've heard (and it's sad because it's evolved into a very quality MMO that few people play) but also sadly it seems the message publishers took from it's launch disaster was "thinking person's MMOs won't sell."
The icons and Vegas style notification systems are a bit annoying too. Not that for any other reason that they make the gameplay less exciting. Why the point of accomplishing something if it's nearly done for you?
So because you use a 360 controller to play an MMO cross platforming has nothing to do with how dumbed down pc gaming has become? Awesome argument dude. Next you will tell me the sky is really orange because you drank orange juice with your breakfast.
WoW. A lot of epeen stroking in this thread. You guys ever raid heroic? Where is your Sunwell kill? What level of Fractals are you on in GW2?
Hells yeah the game is easy for beginners - if you want EQ where you die in Halas a few dozen times its not happening. But you know what - soon as you get started in EQ - the game became easier. All you needed was a lot of patience. Skill wise its certainly not tougher then modern ARPGS and even WoW. These modern games that people are bashing..
THEY ARE MUCH BETTER. Truth. Console gamers overall are also far more skilled. This is something you learned if you played a lot of WoW. A lot of the younger players have better reactions and quicker to pick up the game in general then the old EQ vets. I'd say most of the people on this thread are full of it..
These games aren't easy at the end. Its easy to play but HARD TO MASTER. And its hard. Whats your arena rating in WoW? Yeah ... likely you guys don't have one. People are way to quick to gripe - and way to quick to make assumptions.
I think it is more hope mixed with delusion than hypocrisy.
Having played the original MMOs many people can feel how vapid and placating the genre has become over the last few years.
They hope to find some of the challenge and engagement they felt in the old school MMOs and delude themselves that maybe the new MMOs will offer something beyond the largely forgettable Adventurer DayCare game experience that is all the rage with the casual, I can't be bothered to read, think, concentrate or god forbid learn anything MMO crowd.
I am sorry you had such a boring MMO experience. Maybe you should try more PvP based MMOs especially ones with a significant penalty / loss on death.
I agree with your view of "End Game" challenge but sadly that makes up less than 10% of the content of the game. So what you have is a game that is 90%+ mind-numbingly easy that you have to play through to reach the small amount of challenging content which is restricted to a handful of Raid encounters and arenas.
Why can the game have challenge all the way through, why it is restricted to only max level ?
Why can't we have really difficult quests at 10th level ?
Why can't it have dangerous travelling like EQ did ?
Why can't losing a fight result in something beyond a 30 second delay as you run back to respawn ?
Sadly after playing these games forever I can answer my own question...
Why ? ..... Because a niche genre of challenging group based Multplayer games was overrun by a hoard of challenge averse, disinterested, immature players that had fists full of dollars.
Well, why are you still playing mmo's?
Even kids make fun of mmorpgs now a days.
Making people think they are better at something than they really are is an easy way to create hardcore players. Blizzard are masters at this.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
MMORPG's are easier than they originally were. That is a fact.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
The reason why is that developers want to make money. It's that simple. Like I said in another thread World of Warcraft discovered harder early content turned players off. They simply tracked who played - how much the played - when they quit and why.
They discovered overwhelming that people quit early on because they were too confused or thought something was too hard. Don't get me wrong - WoW takes it too far - making the entire leveling process face roll. But the general idea of getting players hooked in before raising the difficulty is very sound economically. (I think GW2 gets the leveling balance much better. There are plenty of champions around if you want challenge..)
The sooner people understand this (the economic realities of the game) - the sooner they can go back to enjoying MMOs..IMHO. EQ - and I loved EQ was a niche product. The reason was that it was far too punishing.
It wasn't really hard - just punishing BTW. People are confusing this. If you waited for groups and were careful you would never die - and it didn't take a lot of skill to level. You just had a few buttons to push. It didn't use a very sophisiticated combat system. Patience and friends were the major difficulties in EQ - the gameplay itself was actually easier then WoW and a lot easier then the new action RPGs like Tera or GW2. There is a ton LESS skill involved. Go watch early EQ videos.
In your mind only. Don't confuse 'punishing' with ease of play. Early MMOs were modeled more on MUDs and were fairly pathetic 'game wise.' Sure it's easier to level now. But the difficulties of MMOs back then were all social and lore ones. You needed friends and needed to know where to go.
The difficulty of modern MMOs is found in a different place. They are action oriented - some would call it twitch based and leverage traditional video game skills into the MMO. The kind of guys that could set high scores on pac-man or another old time arcade game can now enjoy MMOs. Where before it was pretty much for the hardcore fantasy enthusiast.
The game play was simple. The main thing you needed was patience and a lot of 'outside the game" knowledge (theory crafting) about how the game worked. The game itself was pathetically simple - albeit punishing. Go back and watch some early EQ videos to see.
The point is that it's something that is essentially a part of your progression that you never want to lose; thus making it very important.
Things like Item decay can be important but if not done well they an either be a "penalty for the rich" where wealthy players don't really care as they have the money "and then some" to wipe away the damage or else cripple a player where they don't have money to repair their gear or even replace it.
The highlighted part is my point.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
UO was more action oriented than WOW. So was SWG. What makes modern mmorpgs more difficult?
Minecraft is more difficult than modern mmo's.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
The exclamation points over npc's with neon arrows leading you all the way to your 'quest" that just happens to lead to the next hub lol. My wife has only played one mmorpg and laughs at this. Plus all the soul bound no trade crap that we all get punished for makes her think we're all morons. Candy Crush is more complicated to her.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
THATS. THE POINT. Totally agreed =]
And that's why they (quest hubs and so on) are the first things you learn. Quest in the beginning are normally the tools to teach you more so it would be foolish in the extreme if they were not simple.
If you are suggesting the MMOs as a whole are as simple as one of their most basic features than I would have to disagree and I don't really care to argue about it.
So the target audience for MMOs has sunken so low that clicking on the thing with the floating exclamation point and following the glowing arrows on the map is considered learning how to play ? lol that's awesome...
I don't appreciate being laughed at and made out to be an idiot by anyone. I'm not sure if you don't understand what I'm saying and you think I'm an idiot and that's funny, if you are trying to provoke me into responding to a conversation that I already said I don't care to have or if you are trying to reduce a very simple concept to something extremely ridiculous because you have some other motive. Either way I don't like it.
Now incase you just misunderstood me because I didn't properly explain than think of it this way. Just because the very first word you learn (mum, dad or whatever) is simple it doesn't mean the entire language is. Same is true for MMOs.
Yes it can. Just fight mobs 2 levels above you, and aggro 3 of them.
Think of it as a difficulty slide you exercise every time you pull.