Agree with OP. We don't need kickstarters to get the game we want, we need to vote with our feet. Many people that want an old school game are still subbed to shallow pointless trash like FFXIV and WoW because they're so addicted to MMO's they're willing to settle for stuff they don't even like.
Vote with your feet and the game you want will be made eventually and if not well more money to live life anyways =P
#1 I'll never get return for my "investment". If on other side by law those involved with the projects start making revenue and returned the profits to its investors, that would be something different. Although, history has shown that even if such law existed people still find ways to pocket as much as they can for themself.
Think of Kickstarters as a charity drive.. Which in reality is really what it is. So expecting something from charity other than good deeds is just plain greedy.
I just love having my fiscal choices ridiculed by a forum full of people who spend hundreds-thousands of dollars on video came cash shops dressing up their "avatars" in virtual worlds.
At least little girls doing that with their dollies have something physical to hold onto. Don't lecture me about throwing my money away when you are duped into exchanging your hard earned paycheck for what is effectively monopoly money some MMO studio prints out with the click of a button.
I back projects if I think they show promise, and it is money well spent because it actually goes towards developing something that I want specifically proving the viability of a niche neglected by the industry at large.
Crowdfunded projects have brought about a resurgence of many gaming types such as turn based grid games, and other old school genres that haven't been developed for in years by the major studios. If they can do the same for MMORPG's I would be ecstatic, and it would absolutely be worth my financial support now. But then again I'm swimming in cash because I don't play "Free to Play" games.
#1 I'll never get return for my "investment". If on other side by law those involved with the projects start making revenue and returned the profits to its investors, that would be something different. Although, history has shown that even if such law existed people still find ways to pocket as much as they can for themself.
Think of Kickstarters as a charity drive.. Which in reality is really what it is. So expecting something from charity other than good deeds is just plain greedy.
The difference is when you donate to cancer research it actually goes to cancer research. When you donate to a random fantasy MMO kickstarter, it could go toward a sci fi item in a cash shop or nothing at all because the game never released or hundreds of other things that have nothing to do with why you donated.
You are literally blindly trusting people you've never even met that have 0 accountability compared to real charities, pretty much like the OP said.
#1 I'll never get return for my "investment". If on other side by law those involved with the projects start making revenue and returned the profits to its investors, that would be something different. Although, history has shown that even if such law existed people still find ways to pocket as much as they can for themself.
Think of Kickstarters as a charity drive.. Which in reality is really what it is. So expecting something from charity other than good deeds is just plain greedy.
The difference is when you donate to cancer research it actually goes to cancer research. When you donate to a random fantasy MMO kickstarter, it could go toward a sci fi item in a cash shop or nothing at all because the game never released or hundreds of other things that have nothing to do with why you donated.
You are literally blindly trusting people you've never even met that have 0 accountability compared to real charities, pretty much like the OP said.
And what business is it of yours what people decide to do wit their money?
"Oh I only trust games made by big studios or games that are physically coming out"
Yes because EA(SWTOR), Anet(GW2), Blizzard(WoW) and Zenimax(TESO)
are all doing stelllar jobs with their mmos
/sarcasm
I'd rather help fund a great game based on solid ideas than continue to spend my money on mediocrity
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
By your logic Brian Fargo is 'unworthy' to work on the sequel to a game which exists primarily because of him. Chris Roberts is 'unworthy' to make an open space sim, Tim Schaefer is 'unworthy' to create a new point and click adventure game (his latest was kickstarted & just recently released to acclaim from critics and players BTW), Richard Garriott is 'unworthy' to make an RPG (a spiritual successor to the 8 good and in some cases revolutionary RPGs he's made) ... and so on and so forth.
In other words, that statement is incredibly unfounded and silly, and makes you sound extremely snobbish, and implies that only large companies or wealthy investors are worthy of determining which games should be made.
If I invent a device or product, should I just give up on it because I can't fund the patent fees, prototyping process, initial marketing, etc.? Sure seems like that's what you're saying. Which is also silly, because if everyone did that we wouldn't have half of the stuff we have today.
Just because some kickstarters are / could be scams, doesn't mean they all are. In fact, the majority of KS projects I've backed are doing quite well, with releases coming up this year. The only one I regret is RG's project, mainly because of how he's monetizing in-game property (not paying you $500 for a lot, Rich). Wasteland 2, Planet Explorers, and War for the Overworld are coming long beautifully.
You don't have to spend a dime on what is essentially a pre-order with alpha / beta access, and I understand why someone would feel that way. It's a risk no matter what, but many people have proven that they're willing to take the plunge in the hopes that a game they will love will be made. Concern yourself with your own money, and let others spend theirs as they see fit.
You last two paragraphs are just... well, I'll echo the sentiment expressed already in that I really hope they're some kind of joke, because if not they're some of the most arrogant, self-entitled, pompous garbage I've ever read on these forums.
Finally, just because someone is brilliant doesn't mean they are or will be rich. By your (once again) twisted logic people like Nikola Tesla, Mozart, H.P. Lovecraft, Charles Goodyear, and so on are all stupid because they died poor. Furthermore just look at the list of people who are in MENSA sometime, they come from all walks of life. Brilliance =/= possession of common sense, good judgment, or financial acumen.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
By your logic Brian Fargo is 'unworthy' to work on the sequel to a game which exists primarily because of him. Chris Roberts is 'unworthy' to make an open space sim, Tim Schaefer is 'unworthy' to create a new point and click adventure game (his latest was kickstarted & just recently released to acclaim from critics and players BTW), Richard Garriott is 'unworthy' to make an RPG (a spiritual successor to the 8 good and in some cases revolutionary RPGs he's made) ... and so on and so forth.
In other words, that statement is incredibly unfounded and silly, and makes you sound extremely snobbish, and implies that only large companies or wealthy investors are worthy of determining which games should be made.
If I invent a device or product, should I just give up on it because I can't fund the patent fees, prototyping process, initial marketing, etc.? Sure seems like that's what you're saying. Which is also silly, because if everyone did that we wouldn't have half of the stuff we have today.
Just because some kickstarters are / could be scams, doesn't mean they all are. In fact, the majority of KS projects I've backed are doing quite well, with releases coming up this year. The only one I regret is RG's project, mainly because of how he's monetizing in-game property (not paying you $500 for a lot, Rich). Wasteland 2, Planet Explorers, and War for the Overworld are coming long beautifully.
You don't have to spend a dime on what is essentially a pre-order with alpha / beta access, and I understand why someone would feel that way. It's a risk no matter what, but many people have proven that they're willing to take the plunge in the hopes that a game they will love will be made. Concern yourself with your own money, and let others spend theirs as they see fit.
You last two paragraphs are just... well, I'll echo the sentiment expressed already in that I really hope they're some kind of joke, because if not they're some of the most arrogant, self-entitled, pompous garbage I've ever read on these forums.
Finally, just because someone is brilliant doesn't mean they are or will be rich. By your (once again) twisted logic people like Nikola Tesla, Mozart, H.P. Lovecraft, Charles Goodyear, and so on are all stupid because they died poor. Furthermore just look at the list of people who are in MENSA sometime, they come from all walks of life. Brilliance =/= possession of common sense, good judgment, or financial acumen.
Amen
Keiji Inafune maker of the original Megaman has a Kickstarter that funded: Mighty Nu.9 I'm going to plegdge
Why? Because I like good games and I like all the good games that the guys you mentioned made
I'm a gamer and I like good games and I like people who made good games that I like
So kids if you grow up to make good games that I like I will give you my money to make more good games and not have to deal with red tape bullshit.
Promise
Being a gamer that likes good games why would I not want you to have my money?
Just like Chris Roberts, Brad McQuaid, Tim Schafer, Keiji Inafune and all the rest who made good games I enjoyed
"What's that creator of Megaman/Ultima/Everquest/Wing Commander? You plan on making -more- good games that this GAMER can enjoy? And what's that I can give you the money directly instead of paying some suit?
Why here you go! Take my money and make me more good games! Why am I paying some middleman suit to do this when *gasp* I can just pay YOU!
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Give, don't give, it is your business, just as it is other peoples business to give/invest or be scammed if they want, if people prefer that.
Why would we start a whole discussion on your preference, especially if you are already set on NEVER EVER....Now if you wanted a good discussion, you should maybe of asked for people to convience you to change your mind, and then state why you feel the way you do. When no chance for a different opinion/outcome is present, why bother?
Want a good discussion? Why do people feel they need to tell others how they disagree with them doing a kickstarter donation, with their own money that they earned?
I have nothing against Kickstarter per se, but it riles me when begging posts appear on gaming forums written by developers from there. I hope this site eventually deletes and bans any future begging threads that show up.
I think the point about never getting a return for your "investment" is untrue. I would honestly never call Kickstarter an investment, it's much closer to a donation, but you do often get returns for it and they are often far better value than what you would have gotten by not donating to the Kickstarter.
There have been several games released through Kickstarter that have been positively received from critics. I'm not sure why you think anything released through Kickstarter funding should automatically garner bad publicity.
Kickstarter is definitely a gamble, I think people who back need to be aware of this. Even the most solid Kickstarter campaign may have a chance of having their game never made due to a multitude of reasons, and most Kickstarters have severe delays past their proposed date.
For the record I'm a Kickstarter supporter, I've backed 26 projects.
For those curious my track record is this:
3 of the projects aren't video games, but I'll include them in my statistics here anyway.
4 projects are currently being funded now.
1 project did not get funded (so I was refunded my money).
1 out of 21 outright failed, the creator backed out of the game and did not refund money. This was by far the risky project I've ever backed as it was the only project I ever backed that had someone managing it that had zero experiencing developing a game that actually made money. It was a mistake for me to back that. Sadly, and it does go against the idea of Kickstarter a bit, the lesson I learned here is to only back projects were the developers all have significant experience in the industry, especially the person running the Kickstarter.
1 out of 20 projects I'm skeptical it will succeed as updates have been very scarce and the team is not communicative at all on Kickstarter. Everything else I've backed I'm fairly certain will deliver barring any severe and unforeseen circumstances.
7 out of 12 projects were delivered on time or before the estimated delivery date.
5 out of 12 projects were not delivered on time. Interesting to note was that only 1 of these was delivered slightly (~1 month) past the estimated date while the others are all well over 6 months late and 2 more than a year late. I still fully expect to receive these as updates have been frequent and progress is obviously being made, though the lesson here is if you back, don't expect to receive on time.
I've backed only 3 projects that had less than $100k total of funding. The one that failed, one that delivered on time, and one that delivered late.
A few projects have partially delivered (early keys but not physical pledge rewards for example), I don't really want to go through and figure this statistic out to be honest. Most of these have partially delivered well before their estimate date so they are pretty much on track for reaching their estimated date.
While I'm not as militant as the OP is concerning Kickstarters, I have certain criteria that has to be met before I'd consider giving money. The only KS I've ever given money to has been for Hex: Shards of Fate, an MMO TCG. The reasons I gave money was: 1) it was from a company that has years of experience with TCGs and was already financially and critically successful and 2) they had a playable version of the game to show. If it was from some random dude I'd never heard of or the game existed in concept only (*cough*Pantheon*cough*) or was years away from being available (looking at you CU/SotA, Hex has had thousands of people playing its alpha for months already) I would never have spent any money on it.
Besides, if Hex becomes popular, like an online Magic:The Gathering, then I probably can make at least some of my money back by selling my cards.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Originally posted by Ginaz While I'm not as militant as the OP is concerning Kickstarters, I have certain criteria that has to be met before I'd consider giving money. The only KS I've ever given money to has been for Hex: Shards of Fate, and MMO TCG. The reasons I gave money was: 1) it was from a company that has years of experience with TCGs and was already financially and critically successful and 2) they had a playable version of the game to show. If it was from some random dude I'd never heard of or the game existed in concept only (*cough*Pantheon*cough*) or was years away from being available (looking at you CU/SotA, Hex has had thousands of people playing its alpha for months already) I would never have spent any money on it.
Hex also had an estimated release date in September 2013 and is still very much in alpha and probably is close to another year away from a full release... I backed it also.
I have nothing against Kickstarter per se, but it riles me when begging posts appear on gaming forums written by developers from there. I hope this site eventually deletes and bans any future begging threads that show up.
I find the threads from the same people who backed the games over and over far more annoying.
Essentially spamming the site telling everyone how they should donate even if it's $10 as a vote for "old school", or how we can no longer complain about current games if we don't back the one they happen to be backing, how we have the developer all wrong, etc. I never thought I would get so sick of the term "no hand holding".
A kickstarter means that you'll turn into an investor.
That means you risk money.
I dont see whats so evil about that ? Just make sure you really believe in that investment !
For example I just found out last week theres a kickstarter for a Vanguard successor: Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen. Its kickstarter is running until Feb 22. I'm strongly thinking of joining it. Vanguard is shutting down - Pantheon would be a great replacement. In some ways its even preferable over the original.
As a constant hobby for wasting money - certainly not. The average gaming kickstarter will probably suck. Thats pretty obvious.
Originally posted by Ginaz While I'm not as militant as the OP is concerning Kickstarters, I have certain criteria that has to be met before I'd consider giving money. The only KS I've ever given money to has been for Hex: Shards of Fate, and MMO TCG. The reasons I gave money was: 1) it was from a company that has years of experience with TCGs and was already financially and critically successful and 2) they had a playable version of the game to show. If it was from some random dude I'd never heard of or the game existed in concept only (*cough*Pantheon*cough*) or was years away from being available (looking at you CU/SotA, Hex has had thousands of people playing its alpha for months already) I would never have spent any money on it.
Hex also had an estimated release date in September 2013 and is still very much in alpha and probably is close to another year away from a full release... I backed it also.
The alpha was set for release in Sept. 2013, not beta or final release. It was a few weeks late but most backers were in by mid Nov. after the staggered invite process that began in early Oct.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
It seems many people here believe games magically get funded or something. Without a publisher, a game can't be made. At least, that's how it used to be. Crowdfunding projects have helped to change this in recent years.
Publishers in these modern times are catering completely to the casual crowd. That is, mobile free to play games. Unlike developers, who very often want to make an amazing game that they know people will love and support, publishers only care about making a profit. You know what is in right now? Free to play mobile games and established franchises. Yes, people like you and me like some actual substance with their games, but we are the minority. For every decent 'gamer' out there, there are hundreds of casual moms, kids, and so on that are willing to drop $1 just to get a powerup for 1 out of the 1000 levels in their free to play ipad game.
All the 'big' developers that you see turning to kickstarter do so for multiple reasons. First off, it was because they pitched it to publishers and got turned down. Secondly, it was to actually secure funding so they could make a game, even if it was INCREDIBLY low budget compared to finding a publisher. However, after a few major hits on kickstarter, all sorts of investors came out of the woodwork when they realized there is a large demand for these projects. So now these 'big' kickstarters do secure a decent amount of money to actually fund their game, which means paying the people working on it because developers need a job to live like everyone else, but they also use it to measure the interest in a game. The more popular a crowdfunding is, the more likely a private investor is to step in and basically act like a private publisher. Of course they expect huge returns on the finished product, but the point is these games that the normal publishers denied are getting supported.
The bottom line is that good games can't get made because publishers don't want to fund them. Why would they want to risk millions of dollars, yes it easily costs at least 20 million to make a AAA video game these days, on a game that has no indication of being profitable when they can just pay a substantially smaller amount on an ipad game and expect huge returns. This is why the market is flooded with sequels, 'proven' game formulas, and phone games.
It's so easy to say things like "talk with your wallet", but this is not something the average gamer like us can control. We are completely outnumbered by the 'casual' players, and I don't mean that offensively I simply mean the players who primarily play phone games or overly simplified games. Crowdfunding is really our only option to actually make a difference because big publishers, investors, companies, and everyone but the average person have so much money to throw around, we simply cannot do anything alone.
Actual response to the OP: I really hate to sound so insulting, but you just seem completely ignorant to the actual process behind funding a game. A developer cannot simply get 1 million signatures that say people like the game idea because publishers don't care about that, they care about MONEY. Money is what talks and motivates these big businesses, not "word of mouth", "opinions", and "ideas". Developers are not publishers. Developers are the simple, hard working people that make the game. They aren't the ones who rake in the millions of dollars if the game is successful. Developers are not the ones with millions and millions of dollars to pay for making a game. The DEVELOPERS don't become rich just because a game was a huge success because it's all going to the publisher. These "brilliant minds" that you seem to think are magically rich are the developers who are doing everything they can to make their ideas come to life, even if that means bypassing the publishers and 'traditional' way of doing things. I would never consider someone 'brilliant' if they did not love what they did, and thus, I would never consider someone who is 'too rich' to make video games 'brilliant.'
B: It does give some really wild and crazy ideas a chance to bloom in to at least prototypes, and we need that.
That being said, crowd funding is a bit like BitCoins... A bubble that will implode and settle in to a much less impressive but still viable form.
I dont see what the point of Bitcoins is. Whats the crucial advantage there, over ordinary money ? Especially I think the whole concept is screwed up because there is only a limited, fixed amount of Bitcoins. Thats worse than the gold standard and the later didnt worked out either.
Crowdfunding though allows you to give money in order to make your dreamproject come true. Makes a lot of sense to me.
Finally, any game I see involved in a "kickstarter" is just a bad publicity in my eyes and I would stay away from it. If people don't have the funds to make something that means they are unworthy to develop the project. On other side, it's nice to see that people are getting desperate for money. I've also been desperate for a good game over the last 3+ years, but hey...no one cared what I want, so I spent $0.00 on anything new that was released.
Also as far as I know, no company pm'ed me a contract on these forums to be a lead design for a game, despite my unique knowledge and exceptional experience with gaming through my entire life...Tip for investors, you won't find the brilliant minds at your doorsteps asking to be funded to develop your projects. You look for them because most brilliant minds already have $ and are too busy enjoying their lives to bother wasting their time developing a game in first place. Of course with the right negotitioning, determination, timing and price I could be persuaded
Um... so you have say $1,000,00 laying around to invest in your own projects huh? If so, I really want whatever job you have that gives you so much spare income that you can invest in a project that may or may not hit it off, one that can easily leave you bankrupt and pretty much drag you down into ruin. Seriously, please tell me and grace me with that job cause if I had that, I'd happily start creating my own games.
2nd... who are you? I have 0 clue who you are that you would be a good 'contact'. I really don't see your qualifications... which I bet I can read over and see that repeated by a good majority of the gaming community. Its quite a silly superiority complex you seem to be having going on there.
As an FYI for someone who actually remotely knows what they are talking about (I am finishing up my Bachelors in programming) when it comes to coding and details like that, a vast majority of the time the most complex project to create and program (particularly from the ground up) is video games. The amount of mathematical prowess and finesse you need for it would likely blow your mind.
Argue about the risk of kickstarter, how its not really giving you return profit for investing in a project if you really like, but lets not get all delusional about yourself and downplay just what work is needed to create a project. You are just one of many 'lemmings' that will play a game, no more and no less important then the person next to you. You likely know far less then you believe, and your ideas in many cases are probably wrong and miss informed.
I do not support anything the OP has to say, or how he (she?) say's it. Honestly, OP sounds like they might be unemployed and frustrated with the job hunt. Companies do go out and 'head hunt' perspective employees. But only rarely and always someone that has proven themselves to be pretty outstanding in their field. If you have no proof putting your name out there, or at a minimum some work to show potential employers what you can do, a portfolio, they will never come 'looking' for you. Some free life advice for you.
To my point.
I do not support crowd funding either. Until I can log in and play it, I won't pay for it. That is my very simple explanation.
Does it work? Of course it does. I have seen plenty of games get off the ground due to Crowd funding. I just do not believe in any current projects enough to donate.
However, Star Citizen and The Repopulaton have both had me here with my wallet open. They both look solid and promising and there is no doubt in my mind that they will release and be great games. I just can't talk myself into potentially throwing my money away. Post launch however, assuming things go the way I want, I will indeed be spending heap of cash on both of the above titles.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I think a good amount of scepticism is warranted OP, you're definitely right in that regard. I'd definitely NEVER kickstart a project that doesn't have anything substantial, like an actual gameplay demo or a good proof of concept, to show for it.
Too many titles go to kickstarter with just some fancy speech, a few concept art pieces and some half-baked tech demo, counting on outrageous promises to reel people in.
However, I think you're going overboard when you see the fact that it has been kickstarted as "bad publicity" when the game actually gets released. If they manage to deliver on their promises, that should be lauded as a good example, they shouldn't get flak for it.
-
On a personal note, I've only ever kickstarted one project: Orion by David Prassel (a shooter). That was years ago.
The project is still alive and closing in on beta, but it did take quite a bit longer for them to hit that point than I expected. We'll see what happens to it.
I'd also never kickstart an MMO. Way too many risks. Indies shouldn't start by making MMO's in my opinion, unless it's a simple project. They're taking on more than they can chew.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Comments
Agree with OP. We don't need kickstarters to get the game we want, we need to vote with our feet. Many people that want an old school game are still subbed to shallow pointless trash like FFXIV and WoW because they're so addicted to MMO's they're willing to settle for stuff they don't even like.
Vote with your feet and the game you want will be made eventually and if not well more money to live life anyways =P
OP's arguments are so flawed and fallacious:
Point 1: All kick-starters ask for money and promise to do whatever is being kick-started with it.
Point 2: Some kick-starters are mere scams.
Conclusion: All kick-starters are scams.
It's like saying all white people are Nazis because Hitler was.
I just love having my fiscal choices ridiculed by a forum full of people who spend hundreds-thousands of dollars on video came cash shops dressing up their "avatars" in virtual worlds.
At least little girls doing that with their dollies have something physical to hold onto. Don't lecture me about throwing my money away when you are duped into exchanging your hard earned paycheck for what is effectively monopoly money some MMO studio prints out with the click of a button.
I back projects if I think they show promise, and it is money well spent because it actually goes towards developing something that I want specifically proving the viability of a niche neglected by the industry at large.
Crowdfunded projects have brought about a resurgence of many gaming types such as turn based grid games, and other old school genres that haven't been developed for in years by the major studios. If they can do the same for MMORPG's I would be ecstatic, and it would absolutely be worth my financial support now. But then again I'm swimming in cash because I don't play "Free to Play" games.
http://xivpads.com/?1595680
http://guildwork.com/users/murugan
The difference is when you donate to cancer research it actually goes to cancer research. When you donate to a random fantasy MMO kickstarter, it could go toward a sci fi item in a cash shop or nothing at all because the game never released or hundreds of other things that have nothing to do with why you donated.
You are literally blindly trusting people you've never even met that have 0 accountability compared to real charities, pretty much like the OP said.
And what business is it of yours what people decide to do wit their money?
"Oh I only trust games made by big studios or games that are physically coming out"
Yes because EA(SWTOR), Anet(GW2), Blizzard(WoW) and Zenimax(TESO)
are all doing stelllar jobs with their mmos
/sarcasm
I'd rather help fund a great game based on solid ideas than continue to spend my money on mediocrity
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
By your logic Brian Fargo is 'unworthy' to work on the sequel to a game which exists primarily because of him. Chris Roberts is 'unworthy' to make an open space sim, Tim Schaefer is 'unworthy' to create a new point and click adventure game (his latest was kickstarted & just recently released to acclaim from critics and players BTW), Richard Garriott is 'unworthy' to make an RPG (a spiritual successor to the 8 good and in some cases revolutionary RPGs he's made) ... and so on and so forth.
In other words, that statement is incredibly unfounded and silly, and makes you sound extremely snobbish, and implies that only large companies or wealthy investors are worthy of determining which games should be made.
If I invent a device or product, should I just give up on it because I can't fund the patent fees, prototyping process, initial marketing, etc.? Sure seems like that's what you're saying. Which is also silly, because if everyone did that we wouldn't have half of the stuff we have today.
Just because some kickstarters are / could be scams, doesn't mean they all are. In fact, the majority of KS projects I've backed are doing quite well, with releases coming up this year. The only one I regret is RG's project, mainly because of how he's monetizing in-game property (not paying you $500 for a lot, Rich). Wasteland 2, Planet Explorers, and War for the Overworld are coming long beautifully.
You don't have to spend a dime on what is essentially a pre-order with alpha / beta access, and I understand why someone would feel that way. It's a risk no matter what, but many people have proven that they're willing to take the plunge in the hopes that a game they will love will be made. Concern yourself with your own money, and let others spend theirs as they see fit.
You last two paragraphs are just... well, I'll echo the sentiment expressed already in that I really hope they're some kind of joke, because if not they're some of the most arrogant, self-entitled, pompous garbage I've ever read on these forums.
Finally, just because someone is brilliant doesn't mean they are or will be rich. By your (once again) twisted logic people like Nikola Tesla, Mozart, H.P. Lovecraft, Charles Goodyear, and so on are all stupid because they died poor. Furthermore just look at the list of people who are in MENSA sometime, they come from all walks of life. Brilliance =/= possession of common sense, good judgment, or financial acumen.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
Amen
Keiji Inafune maker of the original Megaman has a Kickstarter that funded: Mighty Nu.9 I'm going to plegdge
Why? Because I like good games and I like all the good games that the guys you mentioned made
I'm a gamer and I like good games and I like people who made good games that I like
So kids if you grow up to make good games that I like I will give you my money to make more good games and not have to deal with red tape bullshit.
Promise
Being a gamer that likes good games why would I not want you to have my money?
Just like Chris Roberts, Brad McQuaid, Tim Schafer, Keiji Inafune and all the rest who made good games I enjoyed
"What's that creator of Megaman/Ultima/Everquest/Wing Commander? You plan on making -more- good games that this GAMER can enjoy? And what's that I can give you the money directly instead of paying some suit?
Why here you go! Take my money and make me more good games! Why am I paying some middleman suit to do this when *gasp* I can just pay YOU!
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Glad this is answered, I was losing sleep.
Give, don't give, it is your business, just as it is other peoples business to give/invest or be scammed if they want, if people prefer that.
Why would we start a whole discussion on your preference, especially if you are already set on NEVER EVER....Now if you wanted a good discussion, you should maybe of asked for people to convience you to change your mind, and then state why you feel the way you do. When no chance for a different opinion/outcome is present, why bother?
Want a good discussion? Why do people feel they need to tell others how they disagree with them doing a kickstarter donation, with their own money that they earned?
I have nothing against Kickstarter per se, but it riles me when begging posts appear on gaming forums written by developers from there. I hope this site eventually deletes and bans any future begging threads that show up.
Yeah. I don't see the advantage of getting involved with a kickstarter.
It's basically asking to be paid before the job is done.
It's setting a bad precedent for gaming companies.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
I think the point about never getting a return for your "investment" is untrue. I would honestly never call Kickstarter an investment, it's much closer to a donation, but you do often get returns for it and they are often far better value than what you would have gotten by not donating to the Kickstarter.
There have been several games released through Kickstarter that have been positively received from critics. I'm not sure why you think anything released through Kickstarter funding should automatically garner bad publicity.
Kickstarter is definitely a gamble, I think people who back need to be aware of this. Even the most solid Kickstarter campaign may have a chance of having their game never made due to a multitude of reasons, and most Kickstarters have severe delays past their proposed date.
For the record I'm a Kickstarter supporter, I've backed 26 projects.
For those curious my track record is this:
3 of the projects aren't video games, but I'll include them in my statistics here anyway.
4 projects are currently being funded now.
1 project did not get funded (so I was refunded my money).
1 out of 21 outright failed, the creator backed out of the game and did not refund money. This was by far the risky project I've ever backed as it was the only project I ever backed that had someone managing it that had zero experiencing developing a game that actually made money. It was a mistake for me to back that. Sadly, and it does go against the idea of Kickstarter a bit, the lesson I learned here is to only back projects were the developers all have significant experience in the industry, especially the person running the Kickstarter.
1 out of 20 projects I'm skeptical it will succeed as updates have been very scarce and the team is not communicative at all on Kickstarter. Everything else I've backed I'm fairly certain will deliver barring any severe and unforeseen circumstances.
7 out of 12 projects were delivered on time or before the estimated delivery date.
5 out of 12 projects were not delivered on time. Interesting to note was that only 1 of these was delivered slightly (~1 month) past the estimated date while the others are all well over 6 months late and 2 more than a year late. I still fully expect to receive these as updates have been frequent and progress is obviously being made, though the lesson here is if you back, don't expect to receive on time.
I've backed only 3 projects that had less than $100k total of funding. The one that failed, one that delivered on time, and one that delivered late.
A few projects have partially delivered (early keys but not physical pledge rewards for example), I don't really want to go through and figure this statistic out to be honest. Most of these have partially delivered well before their estimate date so they are pretty much on track for reaching their estimated date.
While I'm not as militant as the OP is concerning Kickstarters, I have certain criteria that has to be met before I'd consider giving money. The only KS I've ever given money to has been for Hex: Shards of Fate, an MMO TCG. The reasons I gave money was: 1) it was from a company that has years of experience with TCGs and was already financially and critically successful and 2) they had a playable version of the game to show. If it was from some random dude I'd never heard of or the game existed in concept only (*cough*Pantheon*cough*) or was years away from being available (looking at you CU/SotA, Hex has had thousands of people playing its alpha for months already) I would never have spent any money on it.
Besides, if Hex becomes popular, like an online Magic:The Gathering, then I probably can make at least some of my money back by selling my cards.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
Hex also had an estimated release date in September 2013 and is still very much in alpha and probably is close to another year away from a full release... I backed it also.
i've had good success w returns for kickstarter donations
seen only 1 failed project for a $10 card game where the designer didnt deliver and went silent on communication
over a dozen more delivered for me - altho some were a few months late
i don't trust kickstarter for big projects like mmorpgs but i like supporting indie designers
EQ2 fan sites
I find the threads from the same people who backed the games over and over far more annoying.
Essentially spamming the site telling everyone how they should donate even if it's $10 as a vote for "old school", or how we can no longer complain about current games if we don't back the one they happen to be backing, how we have the developer all wrong, etc. I never thought I would get so sick of the term "no hand holding".
its really quite cringe worthy.
A kickstarter means that you'll turn into an investor.
That means you risk money.
I dont see whats so evil about that ? Just make sure you really believe in that investment !
For example I just found out last week theres a kickstarter for a Vanguard successor: Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen. Its kickstarter is running until Feb 22. I'm strongly thinking of joining it. Vanguard is shutting down - Pantheon would be a great replacement. In some ways its even preferable over the original.
As a constant hobby for wasting money - certainly not. The average gaming kickstarter will probably suck. Thats pretty obvious.
The alpha was set for release in Sept. 2013, not beta or final release. It was a few weeks late but most backers were in by mid Nov. after the staggered invite process that began in early Oct.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
It seems many people here believe games magically get funded or something. Without a publisher, a game can't be made. At least, that's how it used to be. Crowdfunding projects have helped to change this in recent years.
Publishers in these modern times are catering completely to the casual crowd. That is, mobile free to play games. Unlike developers, who very often want to make an amazing game that they know people will love and support, publishers only care about making a profit. You know what is in right now? Free to play mobile games and established franchises. Yes, people like you and me like some actual substance with their games, but we are the minority. For every decent 'gamer' out there, there are hundreds of casual moms, kids, and so on that are willing to drop $1 just to get a powerup for 1 out of the 1000 levels in their free to play ipad game.
All the 'big' developers that you see turning to kickstarter do so for multiple reasons. First off, it was because they pitched it to publishers and got turned down. Secondly, it was to actually secure funding so they could make a game, even if it was INCREDIBLY low budget compared to finding a publisher. However, after a few major hits on kickstarter, all sorts of investors came out of the woodwork when they realized there is a large demand for these projects. So now these 'big' kickstarters do secure a decent amount of money to actually fund their game, which means paying the people working on it because developers need a job to live like everyone else, but they also use it to measure the interest in a game. The more popular a crowdfunding is, the more likely a private investor is to step in and basically act like a private publisher. Of course they expect huge returns on the finished product, but the point is these games that the normal publishers denied are getting supported.
The bottom line is that good games can't get made because publishers don't want to fund them. Why would they want to risk millions of dollars, yes it easily costs at least 20 million to make a AAA video game these days, on a game that has no indication of being profitable when they can just pay a substantially smaller amount on an ipad game and expect huge returns. This is why the market is flooded with sequels, 'proven' game formulas, and phone games.
It's so easy to say things like "talk with your wallet", but this is not something the average gamer like us can control. We are completely outnumbered by the 'casual' players, and I don't mean that offensively I simply mean the players who primarily play phone games or overly simplified games. Crowdfunding is really our only option to actually make a difference because big publishers, investors, companies, and everyone but the average person have so much money to throw around, we simply cannot do anything alone.
Actual response to the OP: I really hate to sound so insulting, but you just seem completely ignorant to the actual process behind funding a game. A developer cannot simply get 1 million signatures that say people like the game idea because publishers don't care about that, they care about MONEY. Money is what talks and motivates these big businesses, not "word of mouth", "opinions", and "ideas". Developers are not publishers. Developers are the simple, hard working people that make the game. They aren't the ones who rake in the millions of dollars if the game is successful. Developers are not the ones with millions and millions of dollars to pay for making a game. The DEVELOPERS don't become rich just because a game was a huge success because it's all going to the publisher. These "brilliant minds" that you seem to think are magically rich are the developers who are doing everything they can to make their ideas come to life, even if that means bypassing the publishers and 'traditional' way of doing things. I would never consider someone 'brilliant' if they did not love what they did, and thus, I would never consider someone who is 'too rich' to make video games 'brilliant.'
I dont see what the point of Bitcoins is. Whats the crucial advantage there, over ordinary money ? Especially I think the whole concept is screwed up because there is only a limited, fixed amount of Bitcoins. Thats worse than the gold standard and the later didnt worked out either.
Crowdfunding though allows you to give money in order to make your dreamproject come true. Makes a lot of sense to me.
That would simply mean I would never again play a MMO.
With kickstarter, I can support something that would otherwise never be done.
two recent RPG hardcovers i received were RQ6 and Accursed
I own hardcovers of both these books thanks to crowdfounding
RuneQuest 6
http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/runequest-6-special-edition-hardback
Accursed rpg
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1231173913/accursed-rpg
EQ2 fan sites
Um... so you have say $1,000,00 laying around to invest in your own projects huh? If so, I really want whatever job you have that gives you so much spare income that you can invest in a project that may or may not hit it off, one that can easily leave you bankrupt and pretty much drag you down into ruin. Seriously, please tell me and grace me with that job cause if I had that, I'd happily start creating my own games.
2nd... who are you? I have 0 clue who you are that you would be a good 'contact'. I really don't see your qualifications... which I bet I can read over and see that repeated by a good majority of the gaming community. Its quite a silly superiority complex you seem to be having going on there.
As an FYI for someone who actually remotely knows what they are talking about (I am finishing up my Bachelors in programming) when it comes to coding and details like that, a vast majority of the time the most complex project to create and program (particularly from the ground up) is video games. The amount of mathematical prowess and finesse you need for it would likely blow your mind.
Argue about the risk of kickstarter, how its not really giving you return profit for investing in a project if you really like, but lets not get all delusional about yourself and downplay just what work is needed to create a project. You are just one of many 'lemmings' that will play a game, no more and no less important then the person next to you. You likely know far less then you believe, and your ideas in many cases are probably wrong and miss informed.
I do not support anything the OP has to say, or how he (she?) say's it. Honestly, OP sounds like they might be unemployed and frustrated with the job hunt. Companies do go out and 'head hunt' perspective employees. But only rarely and always someone that has proven themselves to be pretty outstanding in their field. If you have no proof putting your name out there, or at a minimum some work to show potential employers what you can do, a portfolio, they will never come 'looking' for you. Some free life advice for you.
To my point.
I do not support crowd funding either. Until I can log in and play it, I won't pay for it. That is my very simple explanation.
Does it work? Of course it does. I have seen plenty of games get off the ground due to Crowd funding. I just do not believe in any current projects enough to donate.
However, Star Citizen and The Repopulaton have both had me here with my wallet open. They both look solid and promising and there is no doubt in my mind that they will release and be great games. I just can't talk myself into potentially throwing my money away. Post launch however, assuming things go the way I want, I will indeed be spending heap of cash on both of the above titles.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I think a good amount of scepticism is warranted OP, you're definitely right in that regard. I'd definitely NEVER kickstart a project that doesn't have anything substantial, like an actual gameplay demo or a good proof of concept, to show for it.
Too many titles go to kickstarter with just some fancy speech, a few concept art pieces and some half-baked tech demo, counting on outrageous promises to reel people in.
However, I think you're going overboard when you see the fact that it has been kickstarted as "bad publicity" when the game actually gets released. If they manage to deliver on their promises, that should be lauded as a good example, they shouldn't get flak for it.
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On a personal note, I've only ever kickstarted one project: Orion by David Prassel (a shooter). That was years ago.
The project is still alive and closing in on beta, but it did take quite a bit longer for them to hit that point than I expected. We'll see what happens to it.
I'd also never kickstart an MMO. Way too many risks. Indies shouldn't start by making MMO's in my opinion, unless it's a simple project. They're taking on more than they can chew.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!