Originally posted by Hariken Why would i want to drop 15 a month on it when i can keep playing my modded Skyrim which offers me more than this mmo will. There's nothing in this game where you can't say there's a mod for that. The only thing this game offers is playing online which frankly for a Tes game has always been a bad idea to me. You will not get the feeling of being in a living world from any mmo today. Just imagine what the chat will be like in this game or just other players running around in my Tes game kills it for me. I know alot of Tes players that feel the same as i do. A true Tes game is not an mmo. I think when this game has been out for a few months others Tes fans will start feeling the same that don't now. The only one i see really getting into this are the fans of mmo's not singleplayer Tes games. Since the begining there have always been those players that wanted to play online and this is for them.
I'm not sure what your argument is here.
People that want to play a modded single player experience are not included in ESO's target demographic. Please, load up your game and have fun.
Well not strictly true I will play both if I buy it that because I like what I see so far but want to see what Wildstar has to offer,also Hariken fails to realise this will also go to consoles you can't get the modded Skyrim which takes the game beyond anything a vanilla console Skyrim can offer compared to the modded PC version so we are not just talking PC gamers here.
My time is more precious to me than my money. A game of which i think that it already isn't worth my money and for which i wouldn't pay a sub isn't worth my time anyway.
So even if it F2P and wouldn't waste any money on it, i still wouldn't want to waste any time on it.
So far payment type has never been a factor of a games succes..
there is only one thing that matters and thats quallity or fun.... If people enjoy what they see, it sells... And as long as they enjoy the game, they will keep spending money...
Payment type is ALWAYS a factor in an MMO's success. Some MMOs are good enough for box price+sub+cash shop (WoW/EVE), some aren't but are good enough for F2P/B2P (for example SWTOR, TERA, GW2, TSW, Rift etc.), and some aren't good for any model and get shut down. The only one of those last 5 games that is considered successful is GW2, because it launched with the correct business model.
The big question is: Is ESO good enough to have box price + sub + cash shop + preorder perks? No way. Is it good enough to be B2P/F2P? Probably. B2P would probably be the best option since it is the same business model of all previous ES games.
Why should it have the same business model as past ES games? It's a completely different kind of game.
With THAT combat/UI/animations It is pretty much exclusively targeted to ES fans.
That doesn't factor into this at all, nor is it a valid reason for your argument. Just because it has Elder Scrolls in the name and is targeted at people who played the previous Elder Scrolls games doesn't provide any ground at all for using the exact same payment model on a different genre of game. There is a pretty large fundamental difference between a single player RPG and an MMORPG, being that RPGs are made as a stand alone game. RPGs are designed from the ground up to be a complete package, and once you buy it you don't need anything else from the developers save maybe a few small patches or DLC that you buy as well. An MMORPG requires 24/7 servers, constant upkeep and maintenance, balance changes, bug fixes, etc. It just makes absolutely zero sense to say it should be the same payment model as a single player game just because it shares an IP.
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Fact is everything for free is trash, or atleast almost trash.
Games which went from sub to f2p are fairly made good, it feels they had a much higher investment at developing. While almost all games which get instant released as a f2p game, are soooo poorly made its mostly not even worth to try them.
So why should ESO which totally looks like a p2p game, be f2p??? this question is totally strange
As someone who usually goes F2P unless a game is enjoyable enough for me, just allow me to say that from my time in the beta I think the pricing is fine, if a little bit conservative on how much time the initial purchase gets you. If paying helps fund future updates and even potentially another Elder Scrolls game, I have no problem with paying. Also, I forget exactly where but someone's made a good point, which is that rather than having the development time and funding going into cashgrabs to get people to open their wallets, it should be preferable to most people to instead have it actually go into content.
The general consensus is that there is nothing in the first 9 levels worth paying $15 a month for, this is largely due to the boneheaded way Zenimax lifted their NDA and designed their low level content while keeping their endgame relatively obscured. Perhaps if Zenimax would like to show off their endgame and AvAvA rather than expecting to be praised for their mediocre noob island experience people might start thinking the game is worth something again.
Originally posted by reeereee The general consensus is that there is nothing in the first 9 levels worth paying $15 a month for, this is largely due to the boneheaded way Zenimax lifted their NDA and designed their low level content while keeping their endgame relatively obscured. Perhaps if Zenimax would like to show off their endgame and AvAvA rather than expecting to be praised for their mediocre noob island experience people might start thinking the game is worth something again.
They should let you play the game for free from lvl 1 to cap and let you decide afterwards whether or not it was worth paying ;-)
The problem is there hasn't been a game worthy of charging a sub. SWtoR? SW? Tera? And now Eso is asking for a sub and is going to have a shop? Its not even released yet and its making people pay for a race unlock. If you are charging me full box price and a sub, okay, but I want everything and regular updates and a playable fun game with things to keep me busy.
Eso would do itself a favor if it was Buy to play. As it is now with what the Devs themselves have done, the bar is set very very high.
Zenimax should have done what other companies did with their recent "free to level XY" thing.
ESO should be free to some level for everyone to get an idea of it and after say 1-2 level off of the starter island people can decide if they want to sub and play further. No problem if you are confident in your product and if there is actually any efford put into the early levels -which then both is questionable with ESO.
However, this would take alot of heat out of the discussion about Zenimax expecting you to pay a hefty box price and won't tell you what you'll be getting at all.
The problem is there hasn't been a game worthy of charging a sub. SWtoR? SW? Tera? And now Eso is asking for a sub and is going to have a shop? Its not even released yet and its making people pay for a race unlock. If you are charging me full box price and a sub, okay, but I want everything and regular updates and a playable fun game with things to keep me busy.
Eso would do itself a favor if it was Buy to play. As it is now with what the Devs themselves have done, the bar is set very very high.
Your ignoring FFXIV there. It's not my kind of game but I know a lot of people who happily pay the monthly sub to that one. For them it's very much "worth" charging a sub for. I have played in two closed beta's now and I still don't know if ESO will be worth charging a sub for or not. I know it's worth the box fee and a few months of sub time but beyond that I have not seen enough of the game to tell yet as the factors that decide if I stay in a game long term or not are still pretty much locked away from us. That's ok in my book because like I said I think it's worth buying and playing short term and I can make my mind up about long term after 4/4/14.
I am personally more interested in a dedicated, membership only game where the playerbase is only those that care about its long term success and will be loyal to its development and survival.
F2P will surely open the doors to more players, but most of those will be the content locusts who will alter the course of the games development and prioritize daedric pets and flying insect mounts rather than content that we actually care.
The entire F2P argument right now is senseless - let them try it first, see how it goes, if it truly is hurting ala SWTOR then start the discussions and all the petitions! But give them a chance first.
Enough with the "should have done this, could try that" replies. GIVE THE MODEL A CHANCE FIRST.
I am tired of rolling through 20+ mmos which nickel and dime me for every single mouse click. I just want my damn peace of mind knowing there won't be a window popup that will take away my immersion. for that, i am willing to pay the cost of one dominos medium pizza with pepperoni, mushrooms and extra cheese once a month.
I am personally more interested in a dedicated, membership only game where the playerbase is only those that care about its long term success and will be loyal to its development and survival.
F2P will surely open the doors to more players, but most of those will be the content locusts who will alter the course of the games development and prioritize daedric pets and flying insect mounts rather than content that we actually care.
The entire F2P argument right now is senseless - let them try it first, see how it goes, if it truly is hurting ala SWTOR then start the discussions and all the petitions! But give them a chance first.
Enough with the "should have done this, could try that" replies. GIVE THE MODEL A CHANCE FIRST.
I am tired of rolling through 20+ mmos which nickel and dime me for every single mouse click. I just want my damn peace of mind knowing there won't be a window popup that will take away my immersion. for that, i am willing to pay the cost of one dominos medium pizza with pepperoni, mushrooms and extra cheese once a month.
yes, subscription based models mean better content, and a better community. FTP games are always filled with half assed "content updates" and poor support, as well as every angsty player who feels entitled in general chat talking about inane subjects and incessant whining about how much the game sucks. The monthly subs will mostly be people who actually support the game and it's development, and are willing to pay the whole 50 cents a day to keep it running.
Depends on the content quantity and quality. They have to keep people playing and having fun. If they can do that then its worth a sub as long as their is no cash shop with pay to win built in. If not... F2P option within a year. This has been the standard for so long. Soon as developers get that end game needs to have 2-5 times more content then the leveling process, we will be good!!!!
as long as the game is fun, people doesnt mind pay sub for it. we have WOW as an example, so no need to prove anything here.
however, i would love ESO go with it original B2P model as before since its hard for certain class gamer to play more than 2-3h a day as they have family and work to take care of.
its just business, let them try and if its not work out, they can alway change.
Originally posted by GregorMcgregor The B2P idea is like communism; it looks and sounds great, but doesn't work (for lots of reasons).
Take GW2 for example... Sure it was B2P, and the cash shop was for fluff. But they weren't making enough cash from fluff (and no wonder at dye pots for each character... get tae!).
So they then nerf drops/looting to the point that if you wanted to craft yourself gear you had to use the cash for gold convertor, OR grind dungeons to make cash then buy the mats needed (Which was awesome from a game with no grind! Or so they said).
Would you end up spending more than $15 per month? Maybe not (my guess is players with alts would be screaming!) but at least with the sub you get anything, no "Need more arrows? ONLY $5!!!".
And B2P still feeds off the F2P whales.
Love subs or hate them, but they are the only honest choice - you know what your getting and arnt forced into cash shop purchases!
I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this because I don't think there is even a shred of truth in anything you just said. GW2 was a resounding success. Drops were changed because the player base hit max gear right away and so they gave them junk to camp, just like in every other MMORPG ever made. GW2 is the easy proof that subs just aren't needed as it is a higher quality MMORPG than just about any sub game released in the past 5 years and the game is still thriving.
I just wish they hadn't dumbed it down so much so it was worth playing.
Sub fees are the only system that is guaranteed to be a ripoff. I bought the game, I'm buying the expansions yet you are just ripping me off by charging a monthly fee for no reason and making me pay $15 every time I want to try the game again after taking a break. The only dishonest system in the genre is the sub fee.
Originally posted by GregorMcgregor The B2P idea is like communism; it looks and sounds great, but doesn't work (for lots of reasons).
Take GW2 for example... Sure it was B2P, and the cash shop was for fluff. But they weren't making enough cash from fluff (and no wonder at dye pots for each character... get tae!).
So they then nerf drops/looting to the point that if you wanted to craft yourself gear you had to use the cash for gold convertor, OR grind dungeons to make cash then buy the mats needed (Which was awesome from a game with no grind! Or so they said).
Would you end up spending more than $15 per month? Maybe not (my guess is players with alts would be screaming!) but at least with the sub you get anything, no "Need more arrows? ONLY $5!!!".
And B2P still feeds off the F2P whales.
Love subs or hate them, but they are the only honest choice - you know what your getting and arnt forced into cash shop purchases!
I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this because I don't think there is even a shred of truth in anything you just said. GW2 was a resounding success. Drops were changed because the player base hit max gear right away and so they gave them junk to camp, just like in every other MMORPG ever made. GW2 is the easy proof that subs just aren't needed as it is a higher quality MMORPG than just about any sub game released in the past 5 years and the game is still thriving.
I just wish they hadn't dumbed it down so much so it was worth playing.
Sub fees are the only system that is guaranteed to be a ripoff. I bought the game, I'm buying the expansions yet you are just ripping me off by charging a monthly fee for no reason and making me pay $15 every time I want to try the game again after taking a break. The only dishonest system in the genre is the sub fee.
Do you think it's a coincidence that a game trying to drive as many players as possible to the cash shop and currency exchange would dumb down it's game play as you put it?
Originally posted by udon Do you think it's a coincidence that a game trying to drive as many players as possible to the cash shop and currency exchange would dumb down it's game play as you put it?
Hmm
I think the two things have nothing to do with each other. The vision behind the game was to dumb it down, that was their concept since early beta. Do away with complex combat, make RvR really zergy, give everyone rewards for everything. I don't feel they are trying to drive people to the cash shop anymore than any other game in existence that has a cash shop. I played GW2 multiple times and never felt the need to spend a penny on it. The thing is since it is B2P I can go back and try it whenever I feel like it, unlike say WoW which I will probably never touch again because I don't want to spend $15 just to realize I'm still not interested.
Comments
Well not strictly true I will play both if I buy it that because I like what I see so far but want to see what Wildstar has to offer,also Hariken fails to realise this will also go to consoles you can't get the modded Skyrim which takes the game beyond anything a vanilla console Skyrim can offer compared to the modded PC version so we are not just talking PC gamers here.
My time is more precious to me than my money. A game of which i think that it already isn't worth my money and for which i wouldn't pay a sub isn't worth my time anyway.
So even if it F2P and wouldn't waste any money on it, i still wouldn't want to waste any time on it.
That doesn't factor into this at all, nor is it a valid reason for your argument. Just because it has Elder Scrolls in the name and is targeted at people who played the previous Elder Scrolls games doesn't provide any ground at all for using the exact same payment model on a different genre of game. There is a pretty large fundamental difference between a single player RPG and an MMORPG, being that RPGs are made as a stand alone game. RPGs are designed from the ground up to be a complete package, and once you buy it you don't need anything else from the developers save maybe a few small patches or DLC that you buy as well. An MMORPG requires 24/7 servers, constant upkeep and maintenance, balance changes, bug fixes, etc. It just makes absolutely zero sense to say it should be the same payment model as a single player game just because it shares an IP.
My FFXIV ARR referral code for new EU accounts: 5JPF7ZQ3
Step into the amazing world of Eorzea! Use this reference code on a new account and we'll both get goodies for it!
Fact is everything for free is trash, or atleast almost trash.
Games which went from sub to f2p are fairly made good, it feels they had a much higher investment at developing. While almost all games which get instant released as a f2p game, are soooo poorly made its mostly not even worth to try them.
So why should ESO which totally looks like a p2p game, be f2p??? this question is totally strange
They should let you play the game for free from lvl 1 to cap and let you decide afterwards whether or not it was worth paying ;-)
I'm totally fine with a sub fee. I've been playing MMOs since 1999 and am used to/comfortable with paying for a subscription.
It's a cheap form of entertainment when you compare it to "dinner and a movie" nowadays: $80-100 for the wife and I. Eesh.
The problem is there hasn't been a game worthy of charging a sub. SWtoR? SW? Tera? And now Eso is asking for a sub and is going to have a shop? Its not even released yet and its making people pay for a race unlock. If you are charging me full box price and a sub, okay, but I want everything and regular updates and a playable fun game with things to keep me busy.
Eso would do itself a favor if it was Buy to play. As it is now with what the Devs themselves have done, the bar is set very very high.
Zenimax should have done what other companies did with their recent "free to level XY" thing.
ESO should be free to some level for everyone to get an idea of it and after say 1-2 level off of the starter island people can decide if they want to sub and play further. No problem if you are confident in your product and if there is actually any efford put into the early levels -which then both is questionable with ESO.
However, this would take alot of heat out of the discussion about Zenimax expecting you to pay a hefty box price and won't tell you what you'll be getting at all.
Your ignoring FFXIV there. It's not my kind of game but I know a lot of people who happily pay the monthly sub to that one. For them it's very much "worth" charging a sub for. I have played in two closed beta's now and I still don't know if ESO will be worth charging a sub for or not. I know it's worth the box fee and a few months of sub time but beyond that I have not seen enough of the game to tell yet as the factors that decide if I stay in a game long term or not are still pretty much locked away from us. That's ok in my book because like I said I think it's worth buying and playing short term and I can make my mind up about long term after 4/4/14.
I am personally more interested in a dedicated, membership only game where the playerbase is only those that care about its long term success and will be loyal to its development and survival.
F2P will surely open the doors to more players, but most of those will be the content locusts who will alter the course of the games development and prioritize daedric pets and flying insect mounts rather than content that we actually care.
The entire F2P argument right now is senseless - let them try it first, see how it goes, if it truly is hurting ala SWTOR then start the discussions and all the petitions! But give them a chance first.
Enough with the "should have done this, could try that" replies. GIVE THE MODEL A CHANCE FIRST.
I am tired of rolling through 20+ mmos which nickel and dime me for every single mouse click. I just want my damn peace of mind knowing there won't be a window popup that will take away my immersion. for that, i am willing to pay the cost of one dominos medium pizza with pepperoni, mushrooms and extra cheese once a month.
Minus the TIP.
Hardly the general census as I disagree and believe in P2P over F2P and choose not post why at every turn.
I believe most who agree with me do the same thing ,so you are just hearing from the vocal majority.
The vocal majority =/= the actual majority.
as long as the game is fun, people doesnt mind pay sub for it. we have WOW as an example, so no need to prove anything here.
however, i would love ESO go with it original B2P model as before since its hard for certain class gamer to play more than 2-3h a day as they have family and work to take care of.
its just business, let them try and if its not work out, they can alway change.
I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this because I don't think there is even a shred of truth in anything you just said. GW2 was a resounding success. Drops were changed because the player base hit max gear right away and so they gave them junk to camp, just like in every other MMORPG ever made. GW2 is the easy proof that subs just aren't needed as it is a higher quality MMORPG than just about any sub game released in the past 5 years and the game is still thriving.
I just wish they hadn't dumbed it down so much so it was worth playing.
Sub fees are the only system that is guaranteed to be a ripoff. I bought the game, I'm buying the expansions yet you are just ripping me off by charging a monthly fee for no reason and making me pay $15 every time I want to try the game again after taking a break. The only dishonest system in the genre is the sub fee.
Do you think it's a coincidence that a game trying to drive as many players as possible to the cash shop and currency exchange would dumb down it's game play as you put it?
Hmm
Half an hour more like;)
I think the two things have nothing to do with each other. The vision behind the game was to dumb it down, that was their concept since early beta. Do away with complex combat, make RvR really zergy, give everyone rewards for everything. I don't feel they are trying to drive people to the cash shop anymore than any other game in existence that has a cash shop. I played GW2 multiple times and never felt the need to spend a penny on it. The thing is since it is B2P I can go back and try it whenever I feel like it, unlike say WoW which I will probably never touch again because I don't want to spend $15 just to realize I'm still not interested.