Originally posted by ihaveabeard The game was developed by people who originally built vanilla WoW. This fact was never hidden. Kind of pointless to say they ripped off something they built themselves.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle WoW is a clone. Every MMO out now is a clone of the first MMO to make MMOs work. EQ1 was the root. EQ stole a bunch of ideas that worked and made the leap to MMO so their idea is not unique just its execution was. The term WoW clone is chucked around without much thought because when it comes down to it, each game is just adding to what EQ1 made. Add 10-25% new ideas like an Auction House, DAoC and RvR and it goes on. WoW over the years and stolen so many new ideas from other games I am not even sure where you could go that does not touch on what is in WoW. The term should just stopped being used.
To just go ahead and invalidate a good chunk of your post...EQ was by far not the first MMO, nor was it the first MMORPG.
And yes, WildStar is most certainly a WoW clone. It is made by mostly former WoW devs with the intent to recreate Vanilla WoW in a sci-fi environment. I don't think there's really ever been a game more deserving of the title WoW clone than WildStar.
Originally posted by ihaveabeard The game was developed by people who originally built vanilla WoW. This fact was never hidden. Kind of pointless to say they ripped off something they built themselves.
We were specifically talking raids. To either of you, in your opinions, which game has current raid encounters that are more polished and complex than WoWs?
WoW's whole raid system is pretty much garbage.
It's a copy paste job of EQ's raid system, which, in 1998, was acceptable. It's not today.
The tierred gear based raiding system promotes cliques, and grinding over skill and socializing.
The actual raids themselves are insanely small scale, no penalty for failure, linear, scripted, and gimmicky. They are loaded with gear gates, meaning there is a raid progression. In better raid systems, its the player skill that matters, so you can do whatever raid whenever you want and it'll be challenging based off that mob's AI and the skill of your players, not the gear they have.
As for who does EQ style raids better than WoW? EQ, for one. But I still hold that DAoC raids are superior to both.
What is your favorite raid encounter from the games you mention as having better raids than WoW?
Either Caer Sidi or the second Master Level raid in Trials of Atlantis. Before they were changed, of course.
Caer Sidi's drops were on par with the best crafted gear, so it was purely a vanity raid. A 7 hour vanity raid requiring 100+ people all going to different wings of the dungeon, killing mobs in a certain order, avoiding roaming mobs, gathering keys, and progressing, just to have a SHOT at the raid boss. The people who had Caer Sidi glowing weapons earned some major respect.
In terms of challenge, I prefer the ML2 raid, which had a very similar massive and long dungeon, but half underwater, requiring several groups to coordinate and synchronize their navigation of the underwater and flooded maze sections. If all went well and all trials were completed, the challenge at the top of the peak, with the raid boss throwing you straight into the ocean if you fucked up (and basically, out of the encounter unless you could run back up in time without dying) was one of my favorite, most tense moments.
I'm asking specifically which boss fights. I am trying my hardest, but I cant find a single boss fight in any of the places you mentioned that has more complicated mechanics than the bosses in Grim Batol (a WoW Cata 5 man dungeon).
Those sound cool in their settings, but still nothing unique. Dragon Soul (last raid instance in Cata) had you fighting on deathwings back as he flew through the air....part of the mechanics was killing a certian amount of adds to where they empowered another larger add, who explodes when killed with enough of the buff and exposes deathings armor, whcih you had to then focus the tendon and break it in a cerain amount of time to expose deathwings skin a few times, then everyone had to move to a certain side of his back and hunker down to get him to barrel roll mid air and get rid of the leftover adds. If you moved too far to either side prematurely, or didn't hunker down in a wound properly or with the rest of the group, you went flying off to stormwind. This is a VERY condensed and summarized version of its normal mode, let alone heroic mode. Imagine coordinating all of this with 25 people while on the back of a huge dragon This is just one example of many many many others each tier. You can read about the encounter in detail on icy veins. Im not trying to trash DoAC, or EQ, but I cannot for the life of me find a raid fight anywhere near as complicated than most of WoW's normal modes, let alone heroic.
And at the end of the day, its still just very simple scripted, repeated affair, that is more about your armor and gear than about player skill.
Small scale raids that are the same every time..yawn.
To just go ahead and invalidate a good chunk of your post...EQ was by far not the first MMO, nor was it the first MMORPG.
And yes, WildStar is most certainly a WoW clone. It is made by mostly former WoW devs with the intent to recreate Vanilla WoW in a sci-fi environment. I don't think there's really ever been a game more deserving of the title WoW clone than WildStar.
Anyway, NO EQ WAS NOT THE FIRST.
I find the middle paragraph of the above completely lacking credibility in every way.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane. And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes. Hurt - Wars
Originally posted by Nanfoodle WoW is a clone. Every MMO out now is a clone of the first MMO to make MMOs work. EQ1 was the root. EQ stole a bunch of ideas that worked and made the leap to MMO so their idea is not unique just its execution was. The term WoW clone is chucked around without much thought because when it comes down to it, each game is just adding to what EQ1 made. Add 10-25% new ideas like an Auction House, DAoC and RvR and it goes on. WoW over the years and stolen so many new ideas from other games I am not even sure where you could go that does not touch on what is in WoW. The term should just stopped being used.
To just go ahead and invalidate a good chunk of your post...EQ was by far not the first MMO, nor was it the first MMORPG.
And yes, WildStar is most certainly a WoW clone. It is made by mostly former WoW devs with the intent to recreate Vanilla WoW in a sci-fi environment. I don't think there's really ever been a game more deserving of the title WoW clone than WildStar.
Anyway, NO EQ WAS NOT THE FIRST.
Didnt say it was first, I said they were the first to make MMOs work!
We were specifically talking raids. To either of you, in your opinions, which game has current raid encounters that are more polished and complex than WoWs?
WoW's whole raid system is pretty much garbage.
It's a copy paste job of EQ's raid system, which, in 1998, was acceptable. It's not today.
The tierred gear based raiding system promotes cliques, and grinding over skill and socializing.
The actual raids themselves are insanely small scale, no penalty for failure, linear, scripted, and gimmicky. They are loaded with gear gates, meaning there is a raid progression. In better raid systems, its the player skill that matters, so you can do whatever raid whenever you want and it'll be challenging based off that mob's AI and the skill of your players, not the gear they have.
As for who does EQ style raids better than WoW? EQ, for one. But I still hold that DAoC raids are superior to both.
What is your favorite raid encounter from the games you mention as having better raids than WoW?
Either Caer Sidi or the second Master Level raid in Trials of Atlantis. Before they were changed, of course.
Caer Sidi's drops were on par with the best crafted gear, so it was purely a vanity raid. A 7 hour vanity raid requiring 100+ people all going to different wings of the dungeon, killing mobs in a certain order, avoiding roaming mobs, gathering keys, and progressing, just to have a SHOT at the raid boss. The people who had Caer Sidi glowing weapons earned some major respect.
In terms of challenge, I prefer the ML2 raid, which had a very similar massive and long dungeon, but half underwater, requiring several groups to coordinate and synchronize their navigation of the underwater and flooded maze sections. If all went well and all trials were completed, the challenge at the top of the peak, with the raid boss throwing you straight into the ocean if you fucked up (and basically, out of the encounter unless you could run back up in time without dying) was one of my favorite, most tense moments.
I'm asking specifically which boss fights. I am trying my hardest, but I cant find a single boss fight in any of the places you mentioned that has more complicated mechanics than the bosses in Grim Batol (a WoW Cata 5 man dungeon).
Those sound cool in their settings, but still nothing unique. Dragon Soul (last raid instance in Cata) had you fighting on deathwings back as he flew through the air....part of the mechanics was killing a certian amount of adds to where they empowered another larger add, who explodes when killed with enough of the buff and exposes deathings armor, whcih you had to then focus the tendon and break it in a cerain amount of time to expose deathwings skin a few times, then everyone had to move to a certain side of his back and hunker down to get him to barrel roll mid air and get rid of the leftover adds. If you moved too far to either side prematurely, or didn't hunker down in a wound properly or with the rest of the group, you went flying off to stormwind. This is a VERY condensed and summarized version of its normal mode, let alone heroic mode. Imagine coordinating all of this with 25 people while on the back of a huge dragon This is just one example of many many many others each tier. You can read about the encounter in detail on icy veins. Im not trying to trash DoAC, or EQ, but I cannot for the life of me find a raid fight anywhere near as complicated than most of WoW's normal modes, let alone heroic.
And at the end of the day, its still just very simple scripted, repeated affair, that is more about your armor and gear than about player skill.
Small scale raids that are the same every time..yawn.
Ok, we got it. If you're not troll, you're just... I still waiting to answer me previous question.
Sheesh. WoW clone? Excuse me but WoW is an Everquest clone and certainly was never more enjoyable than Everquest. Actually usually less. WoW was already a been there done that game when it came out. So. yeah, call things clones if you want, but get what is a clone of what correct at least - lol.
What I see is the same as in other forums. Almost everyone commenting on the game has not played it themselves. Those who have are still tied by the NDA.
What you see on streams is not giving you a picture of half of what is going on.
There's no such thing as a completely new game. Like anything else in life each new game builds on others.
Calling things closes is useless. If you're addicted to the word, then consider that a skyscraper is a clone of a mud hut, just taller and with different building materials.
Didnt say it was first, I said they were the first to make MMOs work!
Truly the first MMO was Meridian 59, although it didn't last long. Followed by Ultima Online.
As the first poster said, EQ1 was the first MMO to actually succeed, and thus can be considered the progenitor of all the successful MMOs that followed it.
I can't believe this is still going. Terms like wow clone have been excessively made popular for the last 5 years by idiots that see a section of an mmo RPG that reminds them of wow. In actulity, what most of you mean to say is theme park. O look another theme park, not that dumb coined clich
To just go ahead and invalidate a good chunk of your post...EQ was by far not the first MMO, nor was it the first MMORPG.
And yes, WildStar is most certainly a WoW clone. It is made by mostly former WoW devs with the intent to recreate Vanilla WoW in a sci-fi environment. I don't think there's really ever been a game more deserving of the title WoW clone than WildStar.
Anyway, NO EQ WAS NOT THE FIRST.
I find the middle paragraph of the above completely lacking credibility in every way.
I didn't realize an opinion needed to be credible. But if I must.
WS devs are composed of former Blizzard employees. WS is being designed to be the 'new' vanilla WoW. I can go on and on, but it appears that I'm upsetting some of you with the truth as I see it. I'll just leave you with this, you can't beat WoW by trying to be WoW.
"WildStar is most certainly a WoW clone" is not phrased as an opinion.
Having some of the same developers as Vanilla WoW does not a WoW Clone make. They wanted the feel of Vanilla WoW, not, they wanted Vanilla WoW.
I deemed your comment to be without credibility because if you had actually played the game, there is no way you would call it a WoW clone. It plays NOTHING like WoW. The crafting system is 100% different, combat is 100% different, there are tons of different types of quests, it has housing and warplots. To quote you, "I could go on and on", except about the differences.
In fact, I struggle to think of ways in which Wildstar IS like WoW. It's just ridiculous to throw that label at it.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane. And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes. Hurt - Wars
Sheesh. WoW clone? Excuse me but WoW is an Everquest clone
It cloned a lot of EQ's mechanics, but the two games are distinctly different playstyles.
Whereas EQ was a virtual world, with harsh environment and massive complex raids, and massive uninstanced dungeons, encouraged grouping, and a mysterious game world, with harsh consequences for failure...
WoW was a GAME first, with no death penalty, leveling that leads you by the nose and discourages grouping, heavily linear instanced and phased content, tiny linear dungeons, tiny raids, with a game world that is entirely explained and systemized with floating icons everywhere.
EQ and WoWs raiding are pretty much the only things that are super similar about the two.
I saw the major difference of Wildstar and WoW within the first 30 mins of Wildstar: I actually had fun in Wildstar.
For all the times I've actually tried WoW, I have never walked away thinking, "Man, do I wanna do that again!" If Wildstar is a WoW clone or WoW 2.0- good for them. They remembered to add the actual "fun" to the gameplay.
In all seriousness, though, WoW will continue to exist as it has, and Wildstar will flourish. Debates will continue to be waged, and people will keep making the comparisons. Won't stop me and my friends (and a lot of other people) from enjoying Wildstar like Wildstar won't stop WoW players and their friends from enjoying WoW. If that's what you like, that's what you like.
I'm still astounded that so many people can't understand why some people just don't like WoW. It's true, whether you believe it or not, some people just don't like WoW. To me, "Why play Wildstar when WoW has been around loner and it better" has been the only argument about Wildstar I've seen, and I gotta tell you, it's not a very good one. That's like saying, "Why play Rayman:Legends when Super Mario Bros. already has platform mechanics". Some people prefer Mario, some Rayman. So is such that some people will prefer Wildstar, and some will continue to prefer WoW.
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB "Im ready for All the comparisons I think its dumb and its embarrassing Im switching off No longer listening Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
I saw the major difference of Wildstar and WoW within the first 30 mins of Wildstar: I actually had fun in Wildstar.
For all the times I've actually tried WoW, I have never walked away thinking, "Man, do I wanna do that again!" If Wildstar is a WoW clone or WoW 2.0- good for them. They remembered to add the actual "fun" to the gameplay.
In all seriousness, though, WoW will continue to exist as it has, and Wildstar will flourish. Debates will continue to be waged, and people will keep making the comparisons. Won't stop me and my friends (and a lot of other people) from enjoying Wildstar like Wildstar won't stop WoW players and their friends from enjoying WoW. If that's what you like, that's what you like.
I'm still astounded that so many people can't understand why some people just don't like WoW. It's true, whether you believe it or not, some people just don't like WoW. To me, "Why play Wildstar when WoW has been around loner and it better" has been the only argument about Wildstar I've seen, and I gotta tell you, it's not a very good one. That's like saying, "Why play Rayman:Legends when Super Mario Bros. already has platform mechanics". Some people prefer Mario, some Rayman. So is such that some people will prefer Wildstar, and some will continue to prefer WoW.
Did you start WoW in 2004? Almost everyone that started playing it then thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. If you have been through the gauntlet of games that are "clones" and then played WoW, I can see why you might get that feeling highlited in yellow. If WoW was the first game you ever played right now, I bet you would wanna do it again.
There is now more than a decade that has gone by since WoW released, and folks have gone from 5 year old kids when it came out, to progressing through clones before even trying the game. So, I can see why it may not seem that great anymore, it has been watered down through attrition by playing other games.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.
You can call it what ever you want it still remains one of the least fun mmos I have ever played and that's weird because I thought I was going to love it.
I read up on this game and it was started by ex blizz folk who wanted to do anything but wow, ok i was interested, then dug in watched vids, and to me i found it feels very much like wow or as the OP says wow 2.0.
My faith is my shield! - Turalyon 2022
Your legend ends here and now! - (Battles Won Long Ago)
Comments
Interesting article, sir. I did not speak as a lawyer though, just a rational person.
Except for maybe Rift.
I know...
Your common sense just reminded me of the case.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
And at the end of the day, its still just very simple scripted, repeated affair, that is more about your armor and gear than about player skill.
Small scale raids that are the same every time..yawn.
I find the middle paragraph of the above completely lacking credibility in every way.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
Didnt say it was first, I said they were the first to make MMOs work!
Ok, we got it. If you're not troll, you're just... I still waiting to answer me previous question.
Sheesh. WoW clone? Excuse me but WoW is an Everquest clone and certainly was never more enjoyable than Everquest. Actually usually less. WoW was already a been there done that game when it came out. So. yeah, call things clones if you want, but get what is a clone of what correct at least - lol.
What I see is the same as in other forums. Almost everyone commenting on the game has not played it themselves. Those who have are still tied by the NDA.
What you see on streams is not giving you a picture of half of what is going on.
There's no such thing as a completely new game. Like anything else in life each new game builds on others.
Calling things closes is useless. If you're addicted to the word, then consider that a skyscraper is a clone of a mud hut, just taller and with different building materials.
Don't think I'd want to live in the hut though.
Truly the first MMO was Meridian 59, although it didn't last long. Followed by Ultima Online.
As the first poster said, EQ1 was the first MMO to actually succeed, and thus can be considered the progenitor of all the successful MMOs that followed it.
I didn't realize an opinion needed to be credible. But if I must.
WS devs are composed of former Blizzard employees. WS is being designed to be the 'new' vanilla WoW. I can go on and on, but it appears that I'm upsetting some of you with the truth as I see it. I'll just leave you with this, you can't beat WoW by trying to be WoW.
"WildStar is most certainly a WoW clone" is not phrased as an opinion.
Having some of the same developers as Vanilla WoW does not a WoW Clone make. They wanted the feel of Vanilla WoW, not, they wanted Vanilla WoW.
I deemed your comment to be without credibility because if you had actually played the game, there is no way you would call it a WoW clone. It plays NOTHING like WoW. The crafting system is 100% different, combat is 100% different, there are tons of different types of quests, it has housing and warplots. To quote you, "I could go on and on", except about the differences.
In fact, I struggle to think of ways in which Wildstar IS like WoW. It's just ridiculous to throw that label at it.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
It cloned a lot of EQ's mechanics, but the two games are distinctly different playstyles.
Whereas EQ was a virtual world, with harsh environment and massive complex raids, and massive uninstanced dungeons, encouraged grouping, and a mysterious game world, with harsh consequences for failure...
WoW was a GAME first, with no death penalty, leveling that leads you by the nose and discourages grouping, heavily linear instanced and phased content, tiny linear dungeons, tiny raids, with a game world that is entirely explained and systemized with floating icons everywhere.
EQ and WoWs raiding are pretty much the only things that are super similar about the two.
What Mr. Frost says in response to the WoW clone argument.
Some food for thought.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
I saw the major difference of Wildstar and WoW within the first 30 mins of Wildstar: I actually had fun in Wildstar.
For all the times I've actually tried WoW, I have never walked away thinking, "Man, do I wanna do that again!" If Wildstar is a WoW clone or WoW 2.0- good for them. They remembered to add the actual "fun" to the gameplay.
In all seriousness, though, WoW will continue to exist as it has, and Wildstar will flourish. Debates will continue to be waged, and people will keep making the comparisons. Won't stop me and my friends (and a lot of other people) from enjoying Wildstar like Wildstar won't stop WoW players and their friends from enjoying WoW. If that's what you like, that's what you like.
I'm still astounded that so many people can't understand why some people just don't like WoW. It's true, whether you believe it or not, some people just don't like WoW. To me, "Why play Wildstar when WoW has been around loner and it better" has been the only argument about Wildstar I've seen, and I gotta tell you, it's not a very good one. That's like saying, "Why play Rayman:Legends when Super Mario Bros. already has platform mechanics". Some people prefer Mario, some Rayman. So is such that some people will prefer Wildstar, and some will continue to prefer WoW.
Loves: SMITE, WildStar, Project Zomboid, PSO2, DCUO,
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB
"Im ready for
All the comparisons
I think its dumb and its embarrassing
Im switching off
No longer listening
Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning
Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
Did you start WoW in 2004? Almost everyone that started playing it then thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread. If you have been through the gauntlet of games that are "clones" and then played WoW, I can see why you might get that feeling highlited in yellow. If WoW was the first game you ever played right now, I bet you would wanna do it again.
There is now more than a decade that has gone by since WoW released, and folks have gone from 5 year old kids when it came out, to progressing through clones before even trying the game. So, I can see why it may not seem that great anymore, it has been watered down through attrition by playing other games.
Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.