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Poll about greifing....
Talinguard
Member UncommonPosts: 676
The question is, if higher level players area allowed to kill lower level players hurt the game?
Now I realize that it might depend, but I don't want to get overly complicated.
Overall all do players that take satisfaction killing other players without risk hurt most games?
Presentation for new MMORPG economics concept http://www.slideshare.net/talin/mmo-economics-concept-v-10
Comments
Roses are red
Violets are blue
The reviewer has a mishapen head
Which means his opinion is skewed
...Aldous.MF'n.Huxley
Griefers kill off PvP games by chasing new players away from the game. They just are not smart enough to notice, or to selfish to care.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I agree with this. My first and only foray into a PvP server was in my very first MMO where I rolled a character on a PvP server. I wasn't able to take one step from the lifestone where you first spawned. After getting killed repeatedly, I deleted that character and never went back.
I really have mixed emotions about ArchAge. I'm really intrigued but the PvP aspect scares me a lot. If I had a fighting chance, I wouldn't mind. To get griefed endlessly, not sure I would play.
Again, another thread trying to justify griefing behavior among the bottom feeder class of MMO players. A small group ruins the gaming experience for the much larger populace.
I always think of that ridiculous line Humphrey Bogart says when he is slapping around Icepick(the guy who plays Icepick in later years on Magnum P.I.) "You will take it and like it!". This is what the griefer PvP types expect out of other players.
I've come to the conclusion that this is an inherent part of non-consensual PvP A 100 % non-consensual PvP game is by definition a 100% consensual griefing game. The only way to reduce the griefing is to increase the amount of consent required before PvP can happen. Anyone who thinks there is a compromise solution possible is deluding himself.
This is a very clear "yes" in my opinion. Every game that has free and open PvP to all levels eventually ends up shutting down most or all PvP servers, I.E. Rift.
The few people that run around ganking low level players are almost exclusively responsible for killing full PvP servers, and then whine about no one playing on them. I think it's hilarious.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
There are no mmorpgs made like this... Why come up with doomsday scenarios?
Does it matter what they say? There are very few games where one can be griefed, and you can always choose one where it is not possible.
As i see it, either games are consensual pvp and focus mainly on pve, or it is a e-sport type game (WoT for example) where there is no griefing because everyone is in a level playing field and you are never ganged up on without help.
You need only listen to the swaths of pvp players who talk about how 'fun' it is to literally make people quit the game out of frustration to realize there is only one answer to this poll. Anything less is willful ignorance and intentional blindness.
In short, a huge number of pvp players perform the same literal function as a virus -- they kill off their host, one cell at a time.
There's this old common wisdom shared between MTG players that if you invite a friend to start playing MTG, you have to ease them into the game. There's already a lot to learn and even once you've learned the basics, you then have to start understanding various rules, interactions, and deeper ways of looking at the game ("everything is a time walk", what is tempo, etc).
So inviting someone to play with you and then thrashing them wotc pre-built deck with your Tier 1 "this deck just won nationals" deck, is not that fun. It might be fun for you, but not for them. So beating them here or there is fine, but if you want to introduce people to the game, you have to give them time to learn it, which might mean a lot of your time will be spent playing really boring, weak decks in order to lose and teach your friends.
Now, in an MMO, it's easier to be a jerk because people are anonymous strangers, but the same principle applies. Someone is trying out the game, go ahead and throttle them, show them how amazing you are. They'll just leave, and you'll just push away potential community members because you had to be tough on the newbies. That's why you don't get more OW PvP games. Very few people want to put up with that nonsense at the low levels before they know all the games mechanics, skills and builds.
This post pretty much accurately describes my feelings on the issue. People who gank low level players and new players reap what they sow, which is the closure of the server from lack of interest.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
Very well said.
This is the same stance that every mmo with open pvp that I've ever played has taken.
Training mobs onto someone to have them killed in a pve game, or killing quest givers so that someone can't complete a quest is griefing. Pvp in a pvp game, even if its not a fare fight, is not.
Lineage 2 was one of my first mmo's, and my first encounter with pvp. A PK spent a lot of time outside of a town when I was just starting out, and would kill anyone that tried to leave. It was a crappy thing for him to do, but I understood that that was something I was subject to because it was a part of the game. It was pretty cool seeing other high level guys come to our rescue.
People who have a problem with sort of thing shouldn't be playing open pvp games, they aren't who the game is made for.
I love FFA pvp and I'm not a ganker. People who refer to pvpers as bottom feeders should get off their high horse. You're talking about real people, not playing a GAME, what kind of person does that make you?
Either play on a PVE server or if the game doesn't offer one, play a different game. Being ganked over and over is partly your own damn fault. If you consent to a PVP ruleset and everything that goes along with it, you have nobody to blame but yourself. It's like complaining about getting wet and choosing to live in the rainforest.
I'm not directing this reply to anyone in specific, but this is how I feel about the situation.
I agree with this. I also would like to note I have seen this person comment on countless discussion about PvP, and I've genuinely agreed with them with anything they've posted.
Loves: SMITE, WildStar, Project Zomboid, PSO2, DCUO,
Worst Online Communities: WoW/WoD(the OG MMO Trolls), DayZ/WarZ, SMITE/LoL/DOTA, EVE Online, APB
"Im ready for
All the comparisons
I think its dumb and its embarrassing
Im switching off
No longer listening
Ive had enough of persecution and conditioning
Maybe its instinct- Were only animal" - Lily Allen, Sheezus
People are overly sensitive. I've seen comments from people saying that getting ganked makes them feel like they're getting violeted. I'm not even kidding.
I agree that terible mechanics that allow players to exploit one another should be removed. And ofcourse, not giving safe areas, flag options, pve servers, or something to help players is bad.
Unfortunatly, it seems players react to getting attacked like cruciying Christ for the second time. The pvp community in any game can get very hardcore and "a-hole-ish", but personaly, i just shrug it off, get with players that are cool, dump them if they start acting like jerks themselves, and go on my way. If i get ganked in a certain game once or twice, aslogn as it's not exploitive and out of control, i'm good.
Edit: Even funnier is that, if a pve rift event like in Rift spawns a bunch of mobs that kill a solo players, it's cool to get killed by them. It's not ganking anymore. But if a rift type event like in Aion summons a bunch of pvp'ers that attack you and kill you, then it's some sort of violation of player rights, or whatever you want to call it.
I'm not even some "harcore" that hates "casuals". I just find it funny when people go crazy over a bunch of pixels and random internet people.
Voted NO.
When I played or play a FFA PvP game/server/zone blah blah, I EXPECT to get ganked.
What ruins games is when players demand mechanics be changed, when they could just uninstall and go play something else.
Just because I don't like melting watches doesn't give me the right to go into a gallery and demand they take all the Dali off the walls, just the right to go to a different gallery.
Seriously, when did it become "Everybody gets to like everything."? Or, "Everything should be the same"?
For God's sake that makes me want to gouge my eyes out with a grapefruit spoon, while using a dirty icepick to self lobotomize.
I've heard all the ganker weakling arguments there are to make. "If you don't like it, don't play."
That's exactly what happens. People don't play your games.
You're also the same people whining and crying there are no large scale open world pvp games. No AAA titles allow you to grief lower level players, that's financial suicide.
Well, no. Back in the day, there weren't many choices and if you wanted to play an MMO you had to put up with sniveling little cowards trying to ruin someone else's day. These days you don't. If someone is griefing you, it's not hard to log off, uninstall, and move to something else.
The companies that own these games want profit and they don't get that with games that have walking shitstains driving off their player base.
I used to make an MMO career out of chasing down bullies and teaching them if they want to live in a world where might makes right, there is ALWAYS someone stronger out there.
So, if your spine is permanently yellow and you get off on killing someone who is helpless, stay in your dark little corner niche games and stop crying like a bitch. Because of you and your kind, there will NEVER be a major open world PVP game released on a large scale again. You made this bed, now lie in it.
I wish there was a mechanic where if a player was killed by another player, they could get the option to "haunt" their murderer. Kinda like your spirit form after you die in WoW. Then you could do all sorts of things like, hinder combat speed, hinder movement speed, debuff stats or cause fear. Then maybe you could see some moderation on the part of gankers once they get a taste of their own medicine.
i wonder how much real ganking would continue with a system like that in place. You have to give risk vs rewards for both sides here.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
In age of Wushu there are Revenge NPCs. They are hired by the offended and pop up on the offender at bad times. They make the offender pay gold or take the nasty debuff. Debuffs like lose energy every second for 2 hours. The offended gets to select from a menu of options.
Pretty much this.
Back in the day, you couldn't just play another game. But now, it's easy to just uninstall, log in to dota2 and get your pvp on.
I think I might like that idea. Defintely sounds interesting. My problem is usually "penalities" are nothing more than a slap on the wrist. Also, the argument that "open pvp is like real life" is just hilarious. Sure, I just got home and jumped 10 people and stole their stuff. Penalties need to be meaningful. Now in ArcheAge there is a jail system but this sounds very gimmicky and ineffective. Commit a few dozen infractions and get 15 minute downtime. If you started talking about week long game bans and maybe complete character wipe, well, then that might be meaningful. But, guess what, pvp players would never stand for that. Why? They wouldn't be able to jump on much weaker players or group up and attack a weak player with impunity any more.
Although that sounds like a nice system for AoW, I'd rather have the offended deal out justice rather than npcs. Plus the offended shouldn't have to pay anything at all. It would also serve as a psychological payback if they know that the person or persons they just ganked are the ones impeding their advancement.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."