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Can this mmo be ruined by carebears in the west?

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  • tmann50tmann50 Member UncommonPosts: 70

    It's really funny...it's the Arrogant Gankholes who cause the downfall of most PVP based games. They drive away their victims after a while then whine like small spoiled children who broke their toy and think they deserve a new one. Anyone, and I do mean anyone who actually looks realistically at MMo's will have to, in all honesty, admit that without a strong community of what you so stupidly call Carebears, the games will never last. Only Eve, no sane person knows why, all the others dwindle away because the PvE crowd is far larger then the PvP crowd despite the huge mouths of the PvPers on the boards. With the PvErs being far more numerous they provide the financial support that games need to keep afloat, so if you drive away the PvErs you eventually drive away the game. Essentially, your own arrogance and selfish childishness ruins the game not the fact that most of the players don't want to be ganked by some arrogant child...

    Truth be told, I don't give a damn if you like my post or agree with, it simply presents the facts as I see them from 15+ years of playing MMOs...the louder the mouths the more influence on the boards, but the larger the numbers the more cash and influence with the developers who need the income to eat and take care of their families. It's really yhr PvPers who ruin almost e3very game they set foot in

     

     

  • Emm_Emm_OhhEmm_Emm_Ohh Member UncommonPosts: 80
    Sorry if this has already been mentioned, I will admit I didn't read every response. Trion has already started moving in the opposite direction of catering to the carebears by making the splits 80/20 instead of 60/40. While it is still subject to change, that is a step in the right direction.

    ArcheAge, ESO, Rift & other MMORPG Gameplays https://www.youtube.com/user/MMONerdStomper

  • DocBrodyDocBrody Member UncommonPosts: 1,926

    Carebears ruin EVERY MMO sooner or later, if it is not made for them in the first place

    They can't stand that sandbox MMOs exist, a genre which is not made for them and they need to flame these titles for all eternity

     

    I fear for Archeage to be dumbed down sooner or later.

    Make it more SAFE...

    Make it more... FAIR....

    Make everything optional, consensual.....

    Make it a THEME PARK....

  • MMOredfalconMMOredfalcon Member UncommonPosts: 167
    Originally posted by DocBrody

    Carebears ruin EVERY MMO sooner or later, if it is not made for them in the first place

    They can't stand that sandbox MMOs exist, a genre which is not made for them and they need to flame these titles for all eternity

     

    I fear for Archeage to be dumbed down sooner or later.

    Make it more SAFE...

    Make it more... FAIR....

    Make everything optional, consensual.....

    Make it a THEME PARK....

     I don't think it is the 'Carebares' or even the PvP that ruins Every MMO. It is the ganking that drives alot of people away. I played old school UO. Where at so many popular spots there was always those few that went out of their way to gank and grief as much as they could. Introduced Trammel...it became full in a matter of weeks. And UO shortly after hit their peak in subscribers.

    What will ruin this game is not the PvP, it will be the gankers and griefers that are already infecting this game with their child like behavior. Mix that with the F2P option...I can see it being full of these kind of people. 

    So what do Devs want? They will have to decide if they want a decent income from that the large population of 'carebares' bring with them. Or to run on life support when the majority of the population moves on to the next PvE game and all they are left with is the minority gankers. And only a smaller portion of them giving any kind of income.

    I have seen many posts about how this game is failing in other countries. Starts out doing very well...then begins to die off. It would not surprize me at all if is the griefing/ganking that has drove alot of players away. Seeing the the court system in this game. There will be no punishment for most. The system is a joke. Many with multiple murder counts getting a few minutes in jail. While those who commit petty crimes as uprooting a tree or picking strawberries seem to get the harsh sentences of usually 1 hour or more jail time. The long terms such as days worth in jail are rare.

    Right now I am enjoying the game and most likely will until official release. I don't see myself playing much longer after that. Because of the F2P population surge and the kind of gamers it will bring in.

  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 4,618

    Hows it go, A picture is worth a thousand words...

    image

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • DamonVileDamonVile Member UncommonPosts: 4,818
    Originally posted by DocBrody

    Carebears ruin EVERY MMO sooner or later, if it is not made for them in the first place

    They can't stand that sandbox MMOs exist, a genre which is not made for them and they need to flame these titles for all eternity

     

    I fear for Archeage to be dumbed down sooner or later.

    Make it more SAFE...

    Make it more... FAIR....

    Make everything optional, consensual.....

    Make it a THEME PARK....

    You make the same whine about pvp so you'd do it if you could. You just don't have enough voices or money to accomplish the same thing. 

  • DSWBeefDSWBeef Member UncommonPosts: 789

    Apparently im a bad person because im not a hardcore pvper. This game has an awesome economy. If I wanna partake in what ever pve content AA has, craft, trade, treasure hunt, ect ect. And not PVP then im ruining the game it seems. 

     

    I hate these "carebear" threads. It reaffirms that many hardcore EPEEN pvpers are all assholes.

    Playing: FFXIV, DnL, and World of Warships
    Waiting on: Ashes of Creation

  • casper333333casper333333 Member UncommonPosts: 17
    Isnt it a carebear sandpark mmo with dumbass arrows pointing quest locations already?
  • Victor_KrugerVictor_Kruger Member UncommonPosts: 280
    Originally posted by DSWBeef

    Apparently im a bad person because im not a hardcore pvper. This game has an awesome economy. If I wanna partake in what ever pve content AA has, craft, trade, treasure hunt, ect ect. And not PVP then im ruining the game it seems. 

     

    I hate these "carebear" threads. It reaffirms that many hardcore EPEEN pvpers are all assholes.

     

    No you make the game better, Archeage needs pve players just as much the pvp players to work and its great so far in alpha. 

  • KuinnKuinn Member UncommonPosts: 2,072
    Originally posted by DocBrody

    Carebears ruin EVERY MMO sooner or later, if it is not made for them in the first place

    They can't stand that sandbox MMOs exist, a genre which is not made for them and they need to flame these titles for all eternity

     

    I fear for Archeage to be dumbed down sooner or later.

    Make it more SAFE...

    Make it more... FAIR....

    Make everything optional, consensual.....

    Make it a THEME PARK....

    Actually there's a ton of people who want a PvE sandbox, not a themepark, there's currently one in the making, Everquest Landmark, as far as I know it's not supposed to have open PvP but it is a sandbox.

     

    PvP is only one feature, you dont absolutely need it for something to be a sandbox, otherwise we could start saying a game is not sandbox if you cant build your own towns in it, or alter the geography, and so forth.

     

    As always, the solution is different server types, problem solved. No harm done for either side. And before anyone says "but these games are designed with PvP as core feature! PvE server wont work!" -well if you only care about PvP side of things, what the hell does it matter to you if the PvE server stuff is off the design mark, just be happy in your "right kind of server" and stop carebearing about the rest.

  • sketocafesketocafe Member UncommonPosts: 950

    If Trion would only remove forums, everything would be okay. Or at least we could all assume that everyone is happy.

    Anywho, carebears don't make design choices, developers do. There are going to be demands to make it impossible to steal crops or get attacked with trade packs or make pvp on the pvp island entirely consensual, because that is life in this market, but we simply have to hope that Trion does nothing foolish.

  • BladestromBladestrom Member UncommonPosts: 5,001
    Kuinn unless you want another mine craft, you need pvp to drive a sandbox economy.

    rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar

    Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D

  • JeleenaJeleena Member UncommonPosts: 172
    Originally posted by DSWBeef

    Apparently im a bad person because im not a hardcore pvper. This game has an awesome economy. If I wanna partake in what ever pve content AA has, craft, trade, treasure hunt, ect ect. And not PVP then im ruining the game it seems. 

     

    I hate these "carebear" threads. It reaffirms that many hardcore EPEEN pvpers are all assholes.

     image

  • EhliyaEhliya Member UncommonPosts: 223

    The OP makes the case for the opposition with the use of the word "carebears" which is of course a well-known taunt used to describe whomever disagrees with the "hard core PVP" point of view.  Anyway....that aside.

    It all ends up being apples and oranges.  Yes, games can host all kinds of play styles.  But not all those play styles are created "equal."  

    People who like crafting or exploring do so without really impacting on anyone else.  To some extent that is also true with role players.  They are all easy to ignore if its not your thing.

    Not so for most PVPers.  Their enjoyment comes from hunting others.  A game can have 100 different game systems, but the "hard core" will ignore 99 of them and spend 100 percent of their time on the 1 thing they want to do.  Which so happens to be an activity that by its very nature affects other players, often against their will.  In fact this last is the real attraction for some - the pleasure of making someone frustrated IRL.  Maybe even enough to quit the game!  Crai More!  Who is next?  Gotta keep those Lulz coming!

    If PVP encounters were treated as something meaningful and consequential, that might help.  But very few involve any interaction or conversation at all...it is shoot first, ask no questions later (except maybe to send a hate tell or taunt, if the game allows them).

    I would support open world full loot PVP if we had open world full loot PVPers who didn't behave like sociopaths.  If the "hard core" wonder why there aren't more MMO's to their liking, they need only look at how some of them behave.

    For companies, of course it all comes down to the bottom line.  It is hard to make a profit if you have some customers seeking to drive the rest out of your virtual world.  And so in the end, once server pops are down to 200 or so chest-beating "hard core" (by now complaining, ironically, about low server pops) you close down your game and vow never to take that path again.

  • sketocafesketocafe Member UncommonPosts: 950
    Originally posted by Kangaroomouse

     

    But what would the hardcore griefers do without the carebears?

    ----

    Make servers with different rule sets, problem solved. I don't understand why not more games do this, it's a simple solution to a common problem.

    No one cares about hardcore griefers. 1337 'pirates' in EVE who do nothing but suicide gank are simply awful in an actual fight. It takes getting your asses kicked again and again to get better. Brave Newbies is a good example in EVE, they started out as literally brave newbies, they didn't have the skill points or knowledge but they were always willing to undock and lose ships and they quickly gained the knowledge and the skillpoints have followed.

     

    The problem with simply creating another server with a different ruleset is it isn't all that simple. Again, using EVE as an example, if you create another server they'll both wind up fucked, Tranquility will lose many of the people who fuel the spaceship explosions with their bizarre ability to mine and deal with crafting and inflation will skyrocket. Meanwhile the 'Actually Tranquil' server will lack the turnover of ships and modules which fuels the economy on Tranquility and its economy will never get off the ground.

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by Kothoses
    Originally posted by General-Zod

    Originally posted by cyberpunkhobo
    Which game would you rather play?

    1) A dream, open-world, PvP sandbox full of nothing but the hardest of hardcore PvPers--griefers, gankers, duelists, challenge enthusiasts, whatever you want to call them--or

    2) The exact same game with a significantly larger population. The only difference being that you have to let some carebears play.

    You'd be foolish to choose the first option, both as a player and a game developer. Carebears, in and of themselves, really only benefit the MMOs that they play. It's catering to their every design whim that can have detrimental effects. But don't hold the desire of game companies to make as much money as possible against the carebears playing your game; for the most part, they're simply providing you with prey for the slaughter.

    It's not as if we aren't allowing the carebears to play.

    The problem is with the carebears, they can't play unless the game is changed. I have no problem playing with carebears.

    Originally posted by Loke666

    Honestly, this is usually solved by having 2 serversets. Let the carebears have their own servers and the problem is solved.

    It increases the potential number of players as well, only possible problem is that each group might complain because they think content aimed at the other group takes too much work.

    Some people are of course against this because they think that a game only should have 1 serverset that is the way they prefer but choices are generally a good thing and it is not hard to implement either.

    Otherwise you do get the risk that the devs try to make both groups happy on the same server and that only leads to bad compromises that makes neither group happy.

    This could work.

     

    How very noble of you.

     

    The problem is NOT the mentality of PvE players or PvP players (Griefers and carebares as they like to call each other).  The problem is there has yet to be a pvp focused mmo that makes PvP actually have consequence for anyone except the newer players.  In eve for example you can attempt to scam people risk free, there is no consequence for you doing it, if there was risk v reward for being a dick, if there was actual consequence for engaging in the spawn camping of players who due to game mechanics have no ability to fight back then and only then would a PvP based mmo actually work.

     

    Archages jail system is a small very small step in the right direction, the vast majority of people get a 10 min time out, a few get something harsher.  But actual penalties that matter vs actual rewards that matter, encouraging people to fight people on their power level, and allowing people to reach that are the key to making a good PvP mmo.

     

    Mobas are overtaking mmos for a reason, players love the unpredictable they just want it packaged in a way that gives them a fair shot.

     

    Make it so there is reward for taking on a risky fight and actual consequence for being the giant in the sandbox stomping on the newbies and it could work.

     

    Or leave the PvP Paradigm as it is, a circle jerk for the people who have been playing the longest.

    I'll agree.

    This is partially is the problem with most PvP games. I'm still waiting for a game to come along that will punish senseless Player Killing severely but my interpretation of severely might be too harsh.

    image
  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Member UncommonPosts: 868
    Originally posted by Ehliya

    The OP makes the case for the opposition with the use of the word "carebears" which is of course a well-known taunt used to describe whomever disagrees with the "hard core PVP" point of view.  Anyway....that aside.

    It all ends up being apples and oranges.  Yes, games can host all kinds of play styles.  But not all those play styles are created "equal."  

    People who like crafting or exploring do so without really impacting on anyone else.  To some extent that is also true with role players.  They are all easy to ignore if its not your thing.

    Not so for most PVPers.  Their enjoyment comes from hunting others.  A game can have 100 different game systems, but the "hard core" will ignore 99 of them and spend 100 percent of their time on the 1 thing they want to do.  Which so happens to be an activity that by its very nature affects other players, often against their will.  In fact this last is the real attraction for some - the pleasure of making someone frustrated IRL.  Maybe even enough to quit the game!  Crai More!  Who is next?  Gotta keep those Lulz coming!

    If PVP encounters were treated as something meaningful and consequential, that might help.  But very few involve any interaction or conversation at all...it is shoot first, ask no questions later (except maybe to send a hate tell or taunt, if the game allows them).

    I would support open world full loot PVP if we had open world full loot PVPers who didn't behave like sociopaths.  If the "hard core" wonder why there aren't more MMO's to their liking, they need only look at how some of them behave.

    For companies, of course it all comes down to the bottom line.  It is hard to make a profit if you have some customers seeking to drive the rest out of your virtual world.  And so in the end, once server pops are down to 200 or so chest-beating "hard core" (by now complaining, ironically, about low server pops) you close down your game and vow never to take that path again.

    I don't understand the desire to play a game which is supposed to have thousands of players just to do activities by yourself. I'm not implying somebody has to be in your face all day long or that any amount of hand holding must be done to play a MMO. Why wouldn't one just play a single player game which exhibits crafting and exploring so much better?

    Let me clear somethings up... nobody does anything in a MMO 100 percent of the time. I consider myself a hardcore PvPer but I also consider myself an explorer and a crafter. Most PvPers craft to prepare for their eventual death and loss of items, I do so because I genuinely like creating. Most PvPers would rather play with other PvPers because there can be no competition without a challenge and most PvEers do not provide this challenge. A good portion of the PvE'ers are there just for the content and when the content is gone they leave.

    There is only a tiny percent of pvpers that behave in the manner that you're referencing however, the word sociopath gets thrown around so casually on this site. Yes, the big bad chess-beating griefers are out in full force killing thousands of poor unsuspecting players against their will causing them to leave the game... how dastardly! It's bizarre that in a game which is designed with pvp always generates the same stereotypes. Where are these games where low level characters are being killed in droves? The players that are being "grieved", did they not know the area in which they were hunting in wasn't PvP restricted!? You consider the possibility when fighting NPC's that another one might aggro, is player aggro so outside the box? You want to explore beautiful reefs and ship wrecks you have to be aware of the dangers of the water right? You guys make it seem like there is a bunch of scuba divers going to the same reef only to get eaten by the same shark over and over.

    The reason why developers have implement PvP in their games because its way cheaper than creating a hundreds hours of content. Developers have to add "innovative" content, better A.I, unique dungeons, and new items all in a timely manner for players who might stay 2 months. As an example, we have a bunch of people on these very boards right now complaining that ESO is boring and not enough content yet you don't hear anybody complaining about being "grieved" while questing in Cyrodiil. You magnify a minor issue and overlook why developers are losing players in all these shiny new games. Trust me, it's not the PvP'ers that are leaving...

     

     

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    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • Informer80Informer80 Member Posts: 91
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
    As long as they don't put full loot PvP in the game I'm fine with everything they do. 

    Exactly.

    As long as they keep PK, ganking and griefing as the main part of the game, everything´s fine :D

  • Dixi01Dixi01 Member UncommonPosts: 54

    As Korea game designers said, AA is a game about farms, not about pvp.

    Typical "hardcore pvp player" thinks that there are "pure pvp MMORPG games". Such thing does not exist. Because a game witch do not attract PvE players is dead before release. All modern MMO games has some kind of PvP to attract mentioned above "hardcore pvp'ers" as an additional source of income, and as small unpredictable factor to PvE part of the game. Which makes the game more fun to play. Of course, pvp is always seriously limited by areas and allowed forms of interaction, so it won't change playable PvE game with some PvP risk to mayhem.

    I've spent a few months in Russian release of AA. I'd say, as in any typical MMO game, 50%+ of players hate PvP there and doing their best to avoid it. Same as in EVE or any other well designed MMO with PvP elements.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,857
    Originally posted by Vesavius
    Originally posted by maccarthur2004

    Can this mmo be ruined by carebears in the west?

     

    From what I am seeing in alpha, everyone seems more than up for the fight and is asking for nothing but what a sandpark PvP game offers,.

    I guess it CAN be, but I see no signs that it WILL be.

    Wait until after it releases and the flood gates open to the F2P world, when not everyone is as heavily invested as they are now. Then see how it weathers the (shit) storm. If it still holds out in the West, Great!

  • DocBrodyDocBrody Member UncommonPosts: 1,926
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Kuinn
     

    Actually there's a ton of people who want a PvE sandbox, not a themepark, there's currently one in the making, Everquest Landmark, as far as I know it's not supposed to have open PvP but it is a sandbox.

    It's a sandbox but it' not a PvE sandbox.

     

    this may be the first time anyone ever said what I'm about to say about EQ:L but, the reason it's not PvE is because there is no "v". There is P, and there is E, but no v.

     

    It's a spinoff off the "if it's massive and has mutliplayer, is it massively multiplayer" ?

     

    EQ:L has players and environments, it just doesn't have the conflict between the player and the environment.

    yeah Landmark is a terrible example, it's just a building tool for people to create stuff that Sony can sell later in their online stores, wouldn't even call that a game, more a tool

    The actual "game" will be Everquest Next

  • KatillaKatilla Member UncommonPosts: 829
    tired of seeing the term carebear just because someone wants to play a sandbox game without getting killed by some e-peen slingng ganker because they feel like questing and enjoying a game without making others miserable and being a jerk.
  • Marius6870Marius6870 Member UncommonPosts: 46

    Go play Guild Wars 2 if you don't want to worry about PVP. You don't go into a game based on risk vs reward and ask the developers to take the risk away. Its not fair to them that worked so hard on the game, and its certaintly not fair to the players that joined the game looking for that type of gameplay.Its like joining a PVP server then bitching because you got ganked.

  • LahuzerLahuzer Member UncommonPosts: 782
    Originally posted by DocBrody
    Originally posted by Robokapp
    Originally posted by Kuinn
     

    Actually there's a ton of people who want a PvE sandbox, not a themepark, there's currently one in the making, Everquest Landmark, as far as I know it's not supposed to have open PvP but it is a sandbox.

    It's a sandbox but it' not a PvE sandbox.

     

    this may be the first time anyone ever said what I'm about to say about EQ:L but, the reason it's not PvE is because there is no "v". There is P, and there is E, but no v.

     

    It's a spinoff off the "if it's massive and has mutliplayer, is it massively multiplayer" ?

     

    EQ:L has players and environments, it just doesn't have the conflict between the player and the environment.

    yeah Landmark is a terrible example, it's just a building tool for people to create stuff that Sony can sell later in their online stores, wouldn't even call that a game, more a tool

    The actual "game" will be Everquest Next

    Xsyon and Wurm Online are two sandboxes with PVE-servers. Enjoy, and leave AA as is...

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