So you take a sample of people that since their youth are trained to memorize bulks of data and perform tests and then compare them with people who you force upon new learning techniques?
Just like I said, performing tests will make you better tests and study clearly shows that.
Yeah, those pseudo science and lack of critical thinking
I hope Carbine accounted for a specific amount of people leaving the game after a certain period of time. People will try a game merely out of curiosity, despite whether they're a faceroller or an actual skilled player.
They were probably a bit surprised by however many initial box sales they managed to get, but they also need to have realistic expectations of how many "hardcore" players there are in the MMO market. On average, there's usually no more than 5-10% of an entire playerbase that fit in this category.
If they can continue to pay the bills and still turn a profit on however many people that is, then great. Otherwise, their arm is going to be twisted to make changes to make it profitable, and if watering down content is the solution then that's what will happen.
Hey, now you tell me that those are subjective opinions.
/facepalm
So you take a sample of people that since their youth are trained to memorize bulks of data and perform tests and then compare them with people who you force upon new learning techniques?
Just like I said, performing tests will make you better tests and study clearly shows that.
Yeah, those pseudo science and lack of critical thinking
By this sample do you mean students that are trained in this way? Because, forgive me if I'm wrong but wasn't every single one of us a student as well? If so, thats not a special sample, it's statistically significant. You must have a problem with reading comprehension or you didn't actually click on the ariticle in the journal which was in that report. The scientists, who I'm assuming are much more educated in their specific field that you are, explicitly stated that students learned nearly 50% more of the information.
Forgive me if this sounds idiotic but I put far more faith in a peer reviewed, nationally accredited science journal, than one random posters interpretation of it.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
I agree with Akerbeltz. I have gone to casual in mmos a few years back. 4-5 months ago I tried playing WoW thinking at is a casual friendly game. I run all dungeons without a single wipe, facerolling everything even with new alts etc. I rememer being a casual in burning crusade in WoW. I forced to make like minded friends to run Kara everyweek or the other; getting more into realm's community, and yes unlike now there was a realm community at back then. Many times I even completed shattered halls in a pug because there were people like a challenge here and then.
Now look at the game. Because I am a casual I don't need to interact with others, just use LFR, or LFD. When you try realm chat etc. people cba to deal with creating a pug because anything you can do with LFD or LFR is just facerolling and does not require any social interaction at all. So I return to single player games until WS, now I have hope that I got a challenge here and then while playing casually. Maybe again I need to make friends and actually communicate with them to complete some stuff and actually remember what an mmo is.
Just because you are a casual doesn't mean you have to do eveything in an mmo, and actually if you are a casual you shouldn't have that time so why not do something else in game if you enjoy it? I never bothered with higher diff. raids in Burning Crusade. Once a weekend 3-4 hours of Kara run was enough for me.
So all in all, Akerbeltz is right. Because people coming from farmville, MMOs are not feel like once they are and actual MMO players are suffering from this.
Originally posted by Deadlyne By this sample do you mean students that are trained in this way? Because, forgive me if I'm wrong but wasn't every single one of us a student as well?
Student or not, the experiment was forcing upon them learning methods they were not used to, they did not practice before and were extensively trained for years in different learning method.
Originally posted by lugal Lol! Game to hard for ya? Unable to join a guild? Nerf game as a solution. Why don't you try to fix things from your end, instead of ruining the game for others just to suit yourself.
I know reading is hard, but next time you post, you should REALLY give it a shot.
I wasn't complaining about the difficulty on a personal level, I was complaining about how the difficulty effects the MAJORITY OF THE PLAYER BASE. As in everyone who doesn't enjoy the increased difficulty (when compared to most other modern MMO's). I like it, but here's the thing, most others don't. And they will not stick around.
and that's good because if they don't like how hard the game is then the game is NOT for them... I'm really sick and tired of hearing how every game should be made for everyone.
So a game shouldn't be made for everyone, it should be made for you?
How about a game that caters for all tastes because the content is wide and varied at end-game?
I'm currently leveling in Wildstar as I'm not hardcore or a brilliant player. Do Carbine want me to quit when I get to the dungeons and I find them requiring more time and effort than I have? Shall I go back to WoW? Is that what they want from us casuals, to leave at end-game?
Would be a shame as I love Wildstar so far, it looks great, plays great and I was hoping for it to be my main MMO - but if I'm not going to like the end game because it should all be hardcore, then that'll be my subs lost (and how many others who are enjoying it so far?)
Is that good business? No - and if Carbine act with the same attitude as you, the game will just be a tiny niche F2P game inside 6 months because the casuals (probably 80%+ of the players) will have left.
yeah that's totally what I said... the game should be only made the way I want it. /sarcasm-off
You clearly didn't really read what I wrote.
If you would quit just because a game is too hard for you to master, then yes, you should leave because whiners usually get the games nerfed and then ruin the originally intended experience for those who accept the game for what it is and want to play it how the devs intended it. If it means to learn my class as best as I can and learn lots of different combinations to get the best possible things out of it then so be it. But expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver plate just because you're hiding under the excuse of being a casual player shouldn't be rewarded.
I'm not saying I'm a HC raider, I play casually mmorpgs as well but that doesn't mean that I can't learn and master the dungeons.
It's like playing Dark Souls, then you figgure the game's too damn hard for you to pass and instead of trying again and learning on your mistakes you decide to write a protest mail to devs and demanding a nerf patch or a refund and they reply that they'll do it just because it's a good economy and it'll encourage you to play the game and buy more DLCs... right.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
By this sample do you mean students that are trained in this way? Because, forgive me if I'm wrong but wasn't every single one of us a student as well?
Student or not, the experiment was forcing upon them learning methods they were not used to, they did not practice before and were extensively trained for years in different learning method.
Invalid methodology.
Ok.... I think I'm going to back away from this argument. You seem to think you are smarter than everyone else and refuse to accept anything besides your own opinion, even if its backed by a peer reviewed research study. Do you know what a peer reviewed study is? It means that other scientists checked the methods and verified that the method used was valid given the conclusion. But all of those people with their doctorates and years of experience pale in comparison to your innate knowledge, gifted to you at birth which requires none of that learning nonsense.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
Originally posted by DeadlyneOk.... I think I'm going to back away from this argument. You seem to think you are smarter than everyone else and refuse to accept anything besides your own opinion, even if its backed by a peer reviewed research study. Do you know what a peer reviewed study is? It means that other scientists checked the methods and verified that the method used was valid given the conclusion. But all of those people with their doctorates and years of experience pale in comparison to your innate knowledge, gifted to you at birth which requires none of that learning nonsense.
If you like the falacious appeal to authority, all those people:
Joel J. Mintzes, Alberto Canas, John Coffey, James Gorman, Laine Gurley, Robert Hoffman, Saundra Y. McGuire, Norma Miller, Brian Moon, James Trifone, James H. Wandersee
question the "study" and have serious objections to methodology after it was peer reviewed.
You have to take those pseudo sciences with a grain of salt. They are just descriptive. They describe observed phenomenon but cannot provide valid explanation what and why is it actually happening due nature of what they observe, the implications drown are just opinions.
It's not a science, no psychological theory can be rectified since no common, unifying framework exist.
Also, you should note that the experiement was never repeated, verified or w/e. No science there.
I'm not a huge PvE'er but the difficulty for these dungeons is refreshing.
If someone is doing poorly in your dungeon take the time to try and teach them the encounter. If they simply aren't trying at ALL then just kick them. Problem solved.
We are human and most of us have the capability to learn assuming there is an ounce of effort given.
Keep the difficulty. Its the best part about this game.
I disagree with the OP. Dungeons shouldn't be nerfed because some random people suck. I think WoW went down the rabbit hole with their explanations of why they nerfed the shit out of everything and no one bothered to question if that was the right thing to do. They just bought into the corporate explanation mandated by Bobby Kotick. (remember the "WoW dungeons are hard post).
BTW - I'd be cool with some nerfs to bring some tough bosses in line with weak ones - that kind of thing. But overall I'd say Wildstar would be foolish to change up strategies now.
My reasons why:
#1. WoW had the MOST players when content was the MOST unbalanced. That is to say back when there was a 'content heirarchy' where only the bold dared to try hard dungeons, raids etc. WoW had 11 million players in BC - and yes they had even more in EARLY wrath. But that was right before the dungeon finder and when WoW 'switched gears" and started nerfing everything.
What was interesting about WoW was that it had a certain meritocracy. If you played a lot - knew your class - knew the game - and were good at your role - you could do more content and achieve more. There was this 'culture' of elitism. This is something Gaffney understands. The 'parading around of people in superior armor' was the norm. And its something that WoW later vowed to stamp out.
Post mid-wrath all remnants of the old culture had been stamped out. No one was 'better' then anyone. No one really strived to be hardcore because all you got was the same content just harder.
#2. This is the big one. Having exclusive DIFFICULT content does not mean you do not have contents for the 'casuals'. Casuals play less - and thus see less content. Lots of people JUST raided Kara during BC. Still others never raided at all. But WoW still had millions of players. There difference was they often kinda sorta wanted to raid and dreamed about it - but they just didn't have time or it was too difficult etc.
Going BACK to the different content for different skill levels is a GOOD idea. Gaffney and his company want to make people 'learn to play". And they have smartly designed their leveling and dungeon system with a progressive system of difficulty increases to make this happen.
IMHO the 'old' elitist system that WoW used was just more popular. Having a gear progression/holy trinity/and exclusive content for the best players is a system that hasn't been beaten.
GW2 tried to go almost 'full casual' with the horizontal progression - and I will admit that game is a lot of fun. But if you want to make the most money the old school WoW system can't be beat. You don't just want casuals to play you want them to WANT to be great. You shouldn't care if people 'see' your content you just want people to WANT to 'see' your content.
It's the same strategy behind something like a Halo Car. Why even make a Corvette if you are Chevy? Because you want people to be proud to be in a Chevy. And that's tough to pull off :P
People suck. Not going to sugar coat it. Mark targets, type out what to do in chat, etc. etc. etc. People don't listen. Everyone acts as if these dungeons were just AoE grind fests. Then you have tanks and healers coming in with Assault PvP gear (literally JUST saw this happen). That's the majority. Dungeons 1-49 need to be easier, end of story. Make your Veteran modes as hard as you feel like, but I'm tired of not being able to get a competent group together for normal modes.
People won't "Get better" over time. Just won't happen. The majority want to jump in, do a 30 minute dungeon, and jump out. These people are either unable or unwilling to adapt to this sort of difficulty. They will leave this game, and there will be nothing but a small crowd of niche hardcore fans left. And if that's enough for NCSoft/Carbine/Board of Directors, then awesome. But the majority WILL move on.
Personally, I don't mind the increased difficulty (in reality, they aren't THAT hard, stay out of the tele's, kill healers first, mark enemies, wear the proper gear, etc. It's not rocket surgery), but I'm willing to bet the vast majority do mind, and won't stick with it for long. For me, it's kind of like that Demon/Dark Souls feeling. You die over and over to a boss, and then when you finally get it down, you get that "*cupcake* YEAH!" moment, and it's WAY more satisfying than just mindlessly AoEing everything down. But I also understand that I'm (and others like me) are in the vast minority.
I don't know. Just felt like ranting. Just how I see things. What do you all think?
People wont get better? [mod edit]
this game is hard and its not going to be nerfed.. get that? its not easy peasy world of wacraft..
[mod edit][
people always get better dungeons at low level does not need to be easy they have to be hard or we end up having same effect as boring wow.. or any other games because their dungeons are far to easy
oh and for your sake. i completed every dungeon so far that i have been in .. no trouble
People suck. Not going to sugar coat it. Mark targets, type out what to do in chat, etc. etc. etc. People don't listen. Everyone acts as if these dungeons were just AoE grind fests. Then you have tanks and healers coming in with Assault PvP gear (literally JUST saw this happen). That's the majority. Dungeons 1-49 need to be easier, end of story. Make your Veteran modes as hard as you feel like, but I'm tired of not being able to get a competent group together for normal modes.
People won't "Get better" over time. Just won't happen. The majority want to jump in, do a 30 minute dungeon, and jump out. These people are either unable or unwilling to adapt to this sort of difficulty. They will leave this game, and there will be nothing but a small crowd of niche hardcore fans left. And if that's enough for NCSoft/Carbine/Board of Directors, then awesome. But the majority WILL move on.
Personally, I don't mind the increased difficulty (in reality, they aren't THAT hard, stay out of the tele's, kill healers first, mark enemies, wear the proper gear, etc. It's not rocket surgery), but I'm willing to bet the vast majority do mind, and won't stick with it for long. For me, it's kind of like that Demon/Dark Souls feeling. You die over and over to a boss, and then when you finally get it down, you get that "*cupcake* YEAH!" moment, and it's WAY more satisfying than just mindlessly AoEing everything down. But I also understand that I'm (and others like me) are in the vast minority.
I don't know. Just felt like ranting. Just how I see things. What do you all think?
People wont get better? [mod edit]
I don't think I'm dumb. No clue if I am or not though. Maybe I am and just don't know it?
Anyways, I don't think that the majority will "get better". I think some will, certainly, but not most. I could be be absolutely wrong, but I genuinely believe that the majority of the MMO market has adapted to how dungeons have been over the last however many years.
That said, perhaps calling for a nerf (which I admit was out of desperation, due to having horrible PUG experiences), was a bit rash. However, I DO think that the game needs to explain it's mechanics better to new players. Sure, not standing in the telegraphs and using interrupt is obvious to some of us, but I'd be willing to bet that there are many who just don't understand those concepts.
I think some sort of "tutorial" dungeon would be very beneficial to new players so NPCs can explain what to do in dungeons, and how things like interrupt armor work.
People suck. Not going to sugar coat it. Mark targets, type out what to do in chat, etc. etc. etc. People don't listen. Everyone acts as if these dungeons were just AoE grind fests. Then you have tanks and healers coming in with Assault PvP gear (literally JUST saw this happen). That's the majority. Dungeons 1-49 need to be easier, end of story. Make your Veteran modes as hard as you feel like, but I'm tired of not being able to get a competent group together for normal modes.
People won't "Get better" over time. Just won't happen. The majority want to jump in, do a 30 minute dungeon, and jump out. These people are either unable or unwilling to adapt to this sort of difficulty. They will leave this game, and there will be nothing but a small crowd of niche hardcore fans left. And if that's enough for NCSoft/Carbine/Board of Directors, then awesome. But the majority WILL move on.
Personally, I don't mind the increased difficulty (in reality, they aren't THAT hard, stay out of the tele's, kill healers first, mark enemies, wear the proper gear, etc. It's not rocket surgery), but I'm willing to bet the vast majority do mind, and won't stick with it for long. For me, it's kind of like that Demon/Dark Souls feeling. You die over and over to a boss, and then when you finally get it down, you get that "*cupcake* YEAH!" moment, and it's WAY more satisfying than just mindlessly AoEing everything down. But I also understand that I'm (and others like me) are in the vast minority.
I don't know. Just felt like ranting. Just how I see things. What do you all think?
People wont get better? [mod edit]
I don't think I'm dumb. No clue if I am or not though. Maybe I am and just don't know it?
Anyways, I don't think that the majority will "get better". I think some will, certainly, but not most. I could be be absolutely wrong, but I genuinely believe that the majority of the MMO market has adapted to how dungeons have been over the last however many years.
That said, perhaps calling for a nerf (which I admit was out of desperation, due to having horrible PUG experiences), was a bit rash. However, I DO think that the game needs to explain it's mechanics better to new players. Sure, not standing in the telegraphs and using interrupt is obvious to some of us, but I'd be willing to bet that there are many who just don't understand those concepts.
I think some sort of "tutorial" dungeon would be very beneficial to new players so NPCs can explain what to do in dungeons, and how things like interrupt armor work.
[mod edit]
The game does have a tutorial. It's called levels 1-19. Unless people facerolled and didn't pay attention to -anything- at all whatsoever during their treck through 1-19. That can hardly be blamed on the game.
The game did a fare job at explaining its combat mechanics easily enough and there's an ingame help menu if anyone needed extra perusing.
The game does have a tutorial. It's called levels 1-19. Unless people facerolled and didn't pay attention to -anything- at all whatsoever during their treck through 1-19. That can hardly be blamed on the game.
The game did a fare job at explaining its combat mechanics easily enough and there's an ingame help menu if anyone needed extra perusing.
Oh yeah, blaming the customers, good way to improve your business....
this game is hard and its not going to be nerfed.. get that? its not easy peasy world of wacraft..
if u dont like it or if u can't even complete the first dungeon then u should stop now.
people always get better dungeons at low level does not need to be easy they have to be hard or we end up having same effect as boring wow.. or any other games because their dungeons are far to easy
oh and for your sake. i completed every dungeon so far that i have been in .. no trouble
"game is hard" yet completed everything with "no trouble"....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well I just finished Stormtalon's Lair for the first time. Pug group (was an amazing group of people honestly). We wiped 3 times.
1) Bad pull at the beginning.
2) Second Boss (tank got tornado raped)
3) Third boss (healer didn't get into marked players circle in time)
But we did it. And it really wasn't THAT bad (like I said in the original OP).
But, I feel that my main concern still stands. That the majority of MMO players would either not be able to, or willing to learn how to, adapt to the type of difficulty of WildStar.
Of course, if their target market is hardcore raiders, then awesome. But I'm wondering how financially viable that is. Now, I don't believe dungeons should necessarily be nerfed, but I still maintain that there should be some way of teaching new players about dungeon mechanics with some sort of guided tutorial.
No Thanks - The minute you make it easy, that's the minute I lose interest. I like failing and finally achieving or perhaps I never achieve. Keep the difficulty cranked up just like it is, it's wonderful to fail because the victories are so much sweeter once you finally get there.
#1. WoW had the MOST players when content was the MOST unbalanced. That is to say back when there was a 'content heirarchy' where only the bold dared to try hard dungeons, raids etc. WoW had 11 million players in BC - and yes they had even more in EARLY wrath. But that was right before the dungeon finder and when WoW 'switched gears" and started nerfing everything.
You are wrong, WotLK, the totality of it, had a higher player count than BC...BC peaked at 10 mil, wotlk brought it up to 12 and kept it that way, and the highest point of WoW was actually early Cata....the subs didnt drop until they tried to make WoW more hardcore again with the cata dungeons...
Don't believe me? Read this. You cant argue with cold hard facts.
You are wrong, WotLK, the totality of it, had a higher player count than BC...BC peaked at 10 mil, wotlk brought it up to 12 and kept it that way, and the highest point of WoW was actually early Cata....the subs didnt drop until they tried to make WoW more hardcore again with the cata dungeons...
Don't believe me? Read this. You cant argue with cold hard facts.
Hey, it's another one of these "spin" posts. If this was a few years ago you might be one up on the rest of the MMO players, but by now, everyone is aware of this spin tactic and you aren't really fooling anyone.
The most growth in wow, was during vanilla.
TBC showed steady growth, most of any xpac.
WotLK was the slowest growth xpac before cata.
WotLK retained sub numbers but only grew 500k in the entire xpac life.
The biggest Loss period in Cata was during Firelands.
"The highest numbers in Wow being in early Cata" , had to do with the launch in China, of course it boosted the numbers and then began to lose them with Firelands.
Blizzard made the choice to go in the direction they did, there were no "casuals" in the dev studio telling them to make Naxx 25 one of the easiest raids ever ( their words ), or to introduce even easier 10man versions of that raid. All through Wrath they trained the playerbase to be entitled and continued to enforce that behavior by nerfing content to accommodate them, so of course something like the Cata dungeons weren't going to work, it was a design direction that was already made with the launch of Wrath.
Wildstar isn't Wow, and people that so desperately want it to be Wow, should really just continue to play Wow, because it gives them all of the concessions they are looking for in an MMO, and really...being the "White Knight" on the forums to champion the cause of all the players who "really do mind it being hard" is self projecting and putting words into other people mouths, not to mention the completely vague and made up phrase of " all those people".
Originally posted by lugal Lol! Game to hard for ya? Unable to join a guild? Nerf game as a solution. Why don't you try to fix things from your end, instead of ruining the game for others just to suit yourself.
And they will not stick around.
And i for one will be glad to wave them goodbye, ESO and other fed-x games will be waiting for their return.
Dunno if its changed but when I was in beta for WIldstar, the game lead me though typical themepark questing and instanced dungeons.
Originally posted by sethman75 Originally posted by Nanfoodle Thats one thing Carbine said they wont do. The bar has been set. There is lots of tools to train the masses and I think people will get it. If people want to raid, they will learn how from dungeons and IMO that how a game should be. To often people get to end game and its a new game they have to learn. I think Carbine got it right.
They will nerf it in a few months i promise.
When the subs die off, they have to entice the masses back
Nerf it and they'll lose those who are ataying in the game just because they say they WON'T nerf it.
They are more likely to retain loyal customers who agree with the dungeon's and they will probably stay far longer.
Dumb it down and those who are into the game for how it is now will lose interest, add to that casual's can be somewhat flaky subscribers. next game is out and goodbye wildstar, hello whatever mmo
Better idea would be to add something in game explaining the advantages of a good guild & group, then those who need it have been given some info on how to help themselves overcome the difficulty they find.
Rather than p***ing off a good deal of the playerbase.
Comments
/facepalm
So you take a sample of people that since their youth are trained to memorize bulks of data and perform tests and then compare them with people who you force upon new learning techniques?
Just like I said, performing tests will make you better tests and study clearly shows that.
Yeah, those pseudo science and lack of critical thinking
Whos expecations? Yours, mine? How exactly do you measure whether they were met or not?
"Meeting expectations" is what defines successful product? Says who...? Do you even understand what arbitrary means...?
I hope Carbine accounted for a specific amount of people leaving the game after a certain period of time. People will try a game merely out of curiosity, despite whether they're a faceroller or an actual skilled player.
They were probably a bit surprised by however many initial box sales they managed to get, but they also need to have realistic expectations of how many "hardcore" players there are in the MMO market. On average, there's usually no more than 5-10% of an entire playerbase that fit in this category.
If they can continue to pay the bills and still turn a profit on however many people that is, then great. Otherwise, their arm is going to be twisted to make changes to make it profitable, and if watering down content is the solution then that's what will happen.
By this sample do you mean students that are trained in this way? Because, forgive me if I'm wrong but wasn't every single one of us a student as well? If so, thats not a special sample, it's statistically significant. You must have a problem with reading comprehension or you didn't actually click on the ariticle in the journal which was in that report. The scientists, who I'm assuming are much more educated in their specific field that you are, explicitly stated that students learned nearly 50% more of the information.
Forgive me if this sounds idiotic but I put far more faith in a peer reviewed, nationally accredited science journal, than one random posters interpretation of it.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
Now look at the game. Because I am a casual I don't need to interact with others, just use LFR, or LFD. When you try realm chat etc. people cba to deal with creating a pug because anything you can do with LFD or LFR is just facerolling and does not require any social interaction at all. So I return to single player games until WS, now I have hope that I got a challenge here and then while playing casually. Maybe again I need to make friends and actually communicate with them to complete some stuff and actually remember what an mmo is.
Just because you are a casual doesn't mean you have to do eveything in an mmo, and actually if you are a casual you shouldn't have that time so why not do something else in game if you enjoy it? I never bothered with higher diff. raids in Burning Crusade. Once a weekend 3-4 hours of Kara run was enough for me.
So all in all, Akerbeltz is right. Because people coming from farmville, MMOs are not feel like once they are and actual MMO players are suffering from this.
Student or not, the experiment was forcing upon them learning methods they were not used to, they did not practice before and were extensively trained for years in different learning method.
Invalid methodology.
yeah that's totally what I said... the game should be only made the way I want it. /sarcasm-off
You clearly didn't really read what I wrote.
If you would quit just because a game is too hard for you to master, then yes, you should leave because whiners usually get the games nerfed and then ruin the originally intended experience for those who accept the game for what it is and want to play it how the devs intended it. If it means to learn my class as best as I can and learn lots of different combinations to get the best possible things out of it then so be it. But expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver plate just because you're hiding under the excuse of being a casual player shouldn't be rewarded.
I'm not saying I'm a HC raider, I play casually mmorpgs as well but that doesn't mean that I can't learn and master the dungeons.
It's like playing Dark Souls, then you figgure the game's too damn hard for you to pass and instead of trying again and learning on your mistakes you decide to write a protest mail to devs and demanding a nerf patch or a refund and they reply that they'll do it just because it's a good economy and it'll encourage you to play the game and buy more DLCs... right.
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
Ok.... I think I'm going to back away from this argument. You seem to think you are smarter than everyone else and refuse to accept anything besides your own opinion, even if its backed by a peer reviewed research study. Do you know what a peer reviewed study is? It means that other scientists checked the methods and verified that the method used was valid given the conclusion. But all of those people with their doctorates and years of experience pale in comparison to your innate knowledge, gifted to you at birth which requires none of that learning nonsense.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
If you like the falacious appeal to authority, all those people:
Joel J. Mintzes, Alberto Canas, John Coffey, James Gorman, Laine Gurley, Robert Hoffman, Saundra Y. McGuire, Norma Miller, Brian Moon, James Trifone, James H. Wandersee
question the "study" and have serious objections to methodology after it was peer reviewed.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/334/6055/453.3.full.pdf
You have to take those pseudo sciences with a grain of salt. They are just descriptive. They describe observed phenomenon but cannot provide valid explanation what and why is it actually happening due nature of what they observe, the implications drown are just opinions.
It's not a science, no psychological theory can be rectified since no common, unifying framework exist.
Also, you should note that the experiement was never repeated, verified or w/e. No science there.
I'm not a huge PvE'er but the difficulty for these dungeons is refreshing.
If someone is doing poorly in your dungeon take the time to try and teach them the encounter. If they simply aren't trying at ALL then just kick them. Problem solved.
We are human and most of us have the capability to learn assuming there is an ounce of effort given.
Keep the difficulty. Its the best part about this game.
I disagree with the OP. Dungeons shouldn't be nerfed because some random people suck. I think WoW went down the rabbit hole with their explanations of why they nerfed the shit out of everything and no one bothered to question if that was the right thing to do. They just bought into the corporate explanation mandated by Bobby Kotick. (remember the "WoW dungeons are hard post).
BTW - I'd be cool with some nerfs to bring some tough bosses in line with weak ones - that kind of thing. But overall I'd say Wildstar would be foolish to change up strategies now.
My reasons why:
#1. WoW had the MOST players when content was the MOST unbalanced. That is to say back when there was a 'content heirarchy' where only the bold dared to try hard dungeons, raids etc. WoW had 11 million players in BC - and yes they had even more in EARLY wrath. But that was right before the dungeon finder and when WoW 'switched gears" and started nerfing everything.
What was interesting about WoW was that it had a certain meritocracy. If you played a lot - knew your class - knew the game - and were good at your role - you could do more content and achieve more. There was this 'culture' of elitism. This is something Gaffney understands. The 'parading around of people in superior armor' was the norm. And its something that WoW later vowed to stamp out.
Post mid-wrath all remnants of the old culture had been stamped out. No one was 'better' then anyone. No one really strived to be hardcore because all you got was the same content just harder.
#2. This is the big one. Having exclusive DIFFICULT content does not mean you do not have contents for the 'casuals'. Casuals play less - and thus see less content. Lots of people JUST raided Kara during BC. Still others never raided at all. But WoW still had millions of players. There difference was they often kinda sorta wanted to raid and dreamed about it - but they just didn't have time or it was too difficult etc.
Going BACK to the different content for different skill levels is a GOOD idea. Gaffney and his company want to make people 'learn to play". And they have smartly designed their leveling and dungeon system with a progressive system of difficulty increases to make this happen.
IMHO the 'old' elitist system that WoW used was just more popular. Having a gear progression/holy trinity/and exclusive content for the best players is a system that hasn't been beaten.
GW2 tried to go almost 'full casual' with the horizontal progression - and I will admit that game is a lot of fun. But if you want to make the most money the old school WoW system can't be beat. You don't just want casuals to play you want them to WANT to be great. You shouldn't care if people 'see' your content you just want people to WANT to 'see' your content.
It's the same strategy behind something like a Halo Car. Why even make a Corvette if you are Chevy? Because you want people to be proud to be in a Chevy. And that's tough to pull off :P
People wont get better? [mod edit]
this game is hard and its not going to be nerfed.. get that? its not easy peasy world of wacraft..
[mod edit][
people always get better dungeons at low level does not need to be easy they have to be hard or we end up having same effect as boring wow.. or any other games because their dungeons are far to easy
oh and for your sake. i completed every dungeon so far that i have been in .. no trouble
I don't think I'm dumb. No clue if I am or not though. Maybe I am and just don't know it?
Anyways, I don't think that the majority will "get better". I think some will, certainly, but not most. I could be be absolutely wrong, but I genuinely believe that the majority of the MMO market has adapted to how dungeons have been over the last however many years.
That said, perhaps calling for a nerf (which I admit was out of desperation, due to having horrible PUG experiences), was a bit rash. However, I DO think that the game needs to explain it's mechanics better to new players. Sure, not standing in the telegraphs and using interrupt is obvious to some of us, but I'd be willing to bet that there are many who just don't understand those concepts.
I think some sort of "tutorial" dungeon would be very beneficial to new players so NPCs can explain what to do in dungeons, and how things like interrupt armor work.
[mod edit]
The game does have a tutorial. It's called levels 1-19. Unless people facerolled and didn't pay attention to -anything- at all whatsoever during their treck through 1-19. That can hardly be blamed on the game.
The game did a fare job at explaining its combat mechanics easily enough and there's an ingame help menu if anyone needed extra perusing.
Oh yeah, blaming the customers, good way to improve your business....
"game is hard" yet completed everything with "no trouble"....
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well I just finished Stormtalon's Lair for the first time. Pug group (was an amazing group of people honestly). We wiped 3 times.
1) Bad pull at the beginning.
2) Second Boss (tank got tornado raped)
3) Third boss (healer didn't get into marked players circle in time)
But we did it. And it really wasn't THAT bad (like I said in the original OP).
But, I feel that my main concern still stands. That the majority of MMO players would either not be able to, or willing to learn how to, adapt to the type of difficulty of WildStar.
Of course, if their target market is hardcore raiders, then awesome. But I'm wondering how financially viable that is. Now, I don't believe dungeons should necessarily be nerfed, but I still maintain that there should be some way of teaching new players about dungeon mechanics with some sort of guided tutorial.
You are wrong, WotLK, the totality of it, had a higher player count than BC...BC peaked at 10 mil, wotlk brought it up to 12 and kept it that way, and the highest point of WoW was actually early Cata....the subs didnt drop until they tried to make WoW more hardcore again with the cata dungeons...
Don't believe me? Read this. You cant argue with cold hard facts.
Hey, it's another one of these "spin" posts. If this was a few years ago you might be one up on the rest of the MMO players, but by now, everyone is aware of this spin tactic and you aren't really fooling anyone.
Dunno if its changed but when I was in beta for WIldstar, the game lead me though typical themepark questing and instanced dungeons.
When the subs die off, they have to entice the masses back
Nerf it and they'll lose those who are ataying in the game just because they say they WON'T nerf it.
They are more likely to retain loyal customers who agree with the dungeon's and they will probably stay far longer.
Dumb it down and those who are into the game for how it is now will lose interest, add to that casual's can be somewhat flaky subscribers. next game is out and goodbye wildstar, hello whatever mmo
Better idea would be to add something in game explaining the advantages of a good guild & group, then those who need it have been given some info on how to help themselves overcome the difficulty they find.
Rather than p***ing off a good deal of the playerbase.
...and at the same time they will gain n-times more casuals.
Implying that catering to majority is bad for business is not smart.