Originally posted by Havekk For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a level 20 what have you, and I spend 40 smackers on 2 credds. I then sell them in game for 4 plat. I then use that money to buy crafted gear that is ridiculously priced (due to the ability to buy in game gold) that a normal player, who's not buying gold can't afford. I then start to distroy folks in pvp because of my full set of nice crafted gear that I basically paid real money for... You guys can fight it all you want. It CLEARY puts those who spend extra REAL money at an advantage. I've seen this happen before. I don't have to prove this to you as you will experience it first hand. Enjoy.
Low level twinking happens anyway even in games where ppl can't buy currency thru some means so your point is irrelevant. Besides, those players could get the gear it just takes longer that is all. Your point boils down to defeating time sync's not skill.
First off... It's a time "sink" as in, to sink time into. Not to sync as in bring together. Secondly, the point is not irrelevant. Using real world money to purchase something that can be sold in game for gold gives players who spend more cash an advantage. Even in your rebuttal you state that it would take a player who didn't spend the money longer to get the same gear.
Originally posted by Havekk For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a level 20 what have you, and I spend 40 smackers on 2 credds. I then sell them in game for 4 plat. I then use that money to buy crafted gear that is ridiculously priced (due to the ability to buy in game gold) that a normal player, who's not buying gold can't afford. I then start to distroy folks in pvp because of my full set of nice crafted gear that I basically paid real money for... You guys can fight it all you want. It CLEARY puts those who spend extra REAL money at an advantage. I've seen this happen before. I don't have to prove this to you as you will experience it first hand. Enjoy.
Low level twinking happens anyway even in games where ppl can't buy currency thru some means so your point is irrelevant. Besides, those players could get the gear it just takes longer that is all. Your point boils down to defeating time sync's not skill.
First off... It's a time "sink" as in, to sink time into. Not to sync as in bring together. Secondly, the point is not irrelevant. Using real world money to purchase something that can be sold in game for gold gives players who spend more cash an advantage. Even in your rebuttal you state that it would take a player who didn't spend the money longer to get the same gear.
And that advantage exists in every single MMO ever released. Do you think there would be so many gold sellers/spammers in these games if it wasn't a lucrative business? Therefore every single MMO is P2W. Or we could use the term P2W to actually mean something and not just refer to every MMO. But have it your way if you like.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
Originally posted by Havekk For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a level 20 what have you, and I spend 40 smackers on 2 credds. I then sell them in game for 4 plat. I then use that money to buy crafted gear that is ridiculously priced (due to the ability to buy in game gold) that a normal player, who's not buying gold can't afford. I then start to distroy folks in pvp because of my full set of nice crafted gear that I basically paid real money for... You guys can fight it all you want. It CLEARY puts those who spend extra REAL money at an advantage. I've seen this happen before. I don't have to prove this to you as you will experience it first hand. Enjoy.
Low level twinking happens anyway even in games where ppl can't buy currency thru some means so your point is irrelevant. Besides, those players could get the gear it just takes longer that is all. Your point boils down to defeating time sync's not skill.
First off... It's a time "sink" as in, to sink time into. Not to sync as in bring together. Secondly, the point is not irrelevant. Using real world money to purchase something that can be sold in game for gold gives players who spend more cash an advantage. Even in your rebuttal you state that it would take a player who didn't spend the money longer to get the same gear.
And that advantage exists in every single MMO ever released. Do you think there would be so many gold sellers/spammers in these games if it wasn't a lucrative business? Therefore every single MMO is P2W. Or we could use the term P2W to actually mean something and not just refer to every MMO. But have it your way if you like.
Wrong. "That advantahe does not exist in every single MMO" and I'll explain why.
#1 Purchasing currency/item illegally (from 3rd party individual or service) creates a great amount of risk for the player to be scammed. Most who do this type of service would not go first, which means the player first must spend $ and relay on trust.
#2 When the company/game is not directly involved with selling things for $, safely to the playerbase, the playerbase is also far less aware about such activity and where to find it.
#3 There is also a great amount of risk involved on the player to get perma banned since the company enforces to protect its game and its players from being taken advantage of.
#4 Finally, the company CAN detect and prevent most illegal trades since they can easily spot em. Example, Blizzard...they have a log of all trades/transactions with their players so anytime they detect something suspecious like someone receiving 100k gold for NOTHING from a different account or any other trade that completely does not make sense they can prevent it. Plus they have chat log of all what's going on in the game.
Players play the game to achieve something, to test themself, to compete and so forth, especially in persistant MMORPG worlds where character progression is so crucial. Majority here who still argue that "you can't buy the best gear, etc with $" are wrong because players will gladly pilot (carry) individuals and do things they would not naturally do just to benefit from massive currency from some "whale" with hundreds of thousands in his bank account.
There are MMO's I won't mention that prefer to keep as many subs as they can over banning those who are involved in these services and it is one of the reason the interest drops quickly in the game many players involved. I remember this guy Aetzu as well, they called him "the mounted" had almost every single mount collected in the game, mounts that you can't trade, but he simply bought the services and as time went by he had every single mount because players were wlling to do anything for a large sum of currency.
When the game/company fails to defend me from such players I simply choose not to play it. Some think they lose far less players because most don't care about these activities so they prefer to be very lenient and keep the income flooding from these subs.
The entire point of me achieving a goal and "winning" is greatly diminished since at the end it won't matter because most will be aware that I could easily just paid $ for it. I refuse to be part of such game, but others are welcome to. I value my time and I want my success to be rewarding. If I don't feel that it's not happening and MMORPG's with persistant worlds where time, determination is crucial to progress a character should be the last to employ such systems in place that allow shortcuts and advantages to players who are willing to fork $.
I also dislike the "double standard" rule where the company would gladly take the $ from these "whales", but restrict its players to to do the same so only they can benefit without any competition.
Originally posted by Havekk For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a level 20 what have you, and I spend 40 smackers on 2 credds. I then sell them in game for 4 plat. I then use that money to buy crafted gear that is ridiculously priced (due to the ability to buy in game gold) that a normal player, who's not buying gold can't afford. I then start to distroy folks in pvp because of my full set of nice crafted gear that I basically paid real money for... You guys can fight it all you want. It CLEARY puts those who spend extra REAL money at an advantage. I've seen this happen before. I don't have to prove this to you as you will experience it first hand. Enjoy.
Low level twinking happens anyway even in games where ppl can't buy currency thru some means so your point is irrelevant. Besides, those players could get the gear it just takes longer that is all. Your point boils down to defeating time sync's not skill.
First off... It's a time "sink" as in, to sink time into. Not to sync as in bring together. Secondly, the point is not irrelevant. Using real world money to purchase something that can be sold in game for gold gives players who spend more cash an advantage. Even in your rebuttal you state that it would take a player who didn't spend the money longer to get the same gear.
And that advantage exists in every single MMO ever released. Do you think there would be so many gold sellers/spammers in these games if it wasn't a lucrative business? Therefore every single MMO is P2W. Or we could use the term P2W to actually mean something and not just refer to every MMO. But have it your way if you like.
Wrong. "That advantahe does not exist in every single MMO" and I'll explain why.
#1 Purchasing currency/item illegally (from 3rd party individual or service) creates a great amount of risk for the player to be scammed. Most who do this type of service would not go first, which means the player first must spend $ and relay on trust.
#2 When the company/game is not directly involved with selling things for $, safely to the playerbase, the playerbase is also far less aware about such activity and where to find it.
#3 There is also a great amount of risk involved on the player to get perma banned since the company enforces to protect its game and its players from being taken advantage of.
#4 Finally, the company CAN detect and prevent most illegal trades since they can easily spot em. Example, Blizzard...they have a log of all trades/transactions with their players so anytime they detect something suspecious like someone receiving 100k gold for NOTHING from a different account or any other trade that completely does not make sense they can prevent it. Plus they have chat log of all what's going on in the game.
Players play the game to achieve something, to test themself, to compete and so forth, especially in persistant MMORPG worlds where character progression is so crucial. Majority here who still argue that "you can't buy the best gear, etc with $" are wrong because players will gladly pilot (carry) individuals and do things they would not naturally do just to benefit from massive currency from some "whale" with hundreds of thousands in his bank account.
There are MMO's I won't mention how even when there is no such system in place prefer to keep as many subs as they can over banning those who are involved in these services and it is one of the reason the interest drops quickly in the game many players involved. I remember this guy Aetzu as well, they called him "the mounted" had almost every single mount collected in the game, mounts that you can't trade, but he simply bought the services and as time went by he had every single mount because players were wlling to do anything for a large sum of currency.
When the game/company fails to defend me from such players I simply choose not to play it. Some think they lose far less players because most don't care about these activities so they prefer to be very lenient and keep the income flooding from these subs.
The entire point of me achieving a goal and "winning" is greatly diminished since at the end it won't matter because most will be aware that I could easily just paid $ for it. I refuse to be part of such game, but others are welcome to.
Wrong. Having a geared low level character does not equal a pay to win. If that is true then WoW is the supreme pay to win since you can get the best gear in the game by spending time to earn the badges to spend on gear.
You can also just have a high level character give you stuff. That is not pay to win.
With Credd you can only buy so much in a month. The person with more money does nothing since they cant buy as much as they want. There is a CD everytime you buy a credd.
Also with WoW you can trade 10 20k to get 200k and blizzards system wont notice.
You cant just make up whatever you want to add something to a definition. P2W has a definition already and it is not what you think it is.
Originally posted by Havekk For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a level 20 what have you, and I spend 40 smackers on 2 credds. I then sell them in game for 4 plat. I then use that money to buy crafted gear that is ridiculously priced (due to the ability to buy in game gold) that a normal player, who's not buying gold can't afford. I then start to distroy folks in pvp because of my full set of nice crafted gear that I basically paid real money for... You guys can fight it all you want. It CLEARY puts those who spend extra REAL money at an advantage. I've seen this happen before. I don't have to prove this to you as you will experience it first hand. Enjoy.
Low level twinking happens anyway even in games where ppl can't buy currency thru some means so your point is irrelevant. Besides, those players could get the gear it just takes longer that is all. Your point boils down to defeating time sync's not skill.
First off... It's a time "sink" as in, to sink time into. Not to sync as in bring together. Secondly, the point is not irrelevant. Using real world money to purchase something that can be sold in game for gold gives players who spend more cash an advantage. Even in your rebuttal you state that it would take a player who didn't spend the money longer to get the same gear.
And that advantage exists in every single MMO ever released. Do you think there would be so many gold sellers/spammers in these games if it wasn't a lucrative business? Therefore every single MMO is P2W. Or we could use the term P2W to actually mean something and not just refer to every MMO. But have it your way if you like.
Wrong. "That advantahe does not exist in every single MMO" and I'll explain why.
#1 Purchasing currency/item illegally (from 3rd party individual or service) creates a great amount of risk for the player to be scammed. Most who do this type of service would not go first, which means the player first must spend $ and relay on trust.
#2 When the company/game is not directly involved with selling things for $, safely to the playerbase, the playerbase is also far less aware about such activity and where to find it.
#3 There is also a great amount of risk involved in the player to get perma banned since the company enforces to protect its game and its players from being taken advantage of.
#4 Finally, the company CAN detect and prevent most illegal trades since they can easily spot em. Example, Blizzard...they have a log of all trades/transactions with their players so anytime they detect something suspecious like someone receiving 100k gold for NOTHING from a different account or any other trade that completely does not make sense they can prevent it. Plus they have chat log of all what's going on in the game.
Players play the game to achieve something, to test themself, to compete and so forth, especially in persistant MMORPG worlds where character progression is so crucial. Majority here who still argue that "you can't buy the best gear, etc with $" are wrong because players will gladly pilot (carry) individuals and do things they would not naturally do just to benefit from massive currency from some "whale" with hundreds of thousands in his bank account.
There are MMO's I won't mention how even when there is no such system in place prefer to keep as many subs as they can over banning those who are involved in these services and it is one of the reason the interest drops quickly in the game many players involved. I remember this guy Aetzu as well, they called him "the mounted" had almost every single mount collected in the game, mounts that you can't trade, but he simply bought the services and as time went by he had every single mount because players were wlling to do anything for a large sum of currency.
When the game/company fails to defend me from such players I simply choose not to play it. Some think they lose far less players because most don't care about these activities so they prefer to be very lenient and keep the income flooding from these subs.
The entire point of me achieving a goal and "winning" is greatly diminished since at the end it won't matter because most will be aware that I could easily just paid $ for it. I refuse to be part of such game, but others are welcome to.
#1 There is less risk involved than you think. Remember that the majority of these sites use some sort of payment provider (ie PayPal) to facilitate this. There are very few where you can drop off cash or where they will pick up cash from you. The thing about "digital" goods is that the burden of proof is on the vendor. So if they can't explicitly prove they delivered that item, then they're screwed. Sorry, there's little or no risk involved in this regard. At least not for a real money transaction.
#2 Based on your logic, since the government doesn't sell drugs to their citizens, the citizens are much less aware about it. I don't agree with that logic at all. Maybe for those with blinders on, playing the game as a solo game, this would be the case. If you spend any amount of time in chat, you know about it.
#3 What you say in point #4 applies here. While 3 is a great point, unless the person isn't actively spending real money, the developer will generally wave a stick at them and tell them they've been a very bad boy or girl. When you're operating with a few thousand (tens of thousands), you can't be banning people. You give them a warning, fix the damn problem and move on. Blizz is a different story. They've got users to burn (and probably want the damn game to die at this point).
#4 I'm sure there is a certain amount of monitoring that goes on, but not as much as you might think. Like you said, why do they care, unless it's a problem.
Give me 3 examples of games that are NOT P2W based on your definition of P2W
Originally posted by Havekk For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a level 20 what have you, and I spend 40 smackers on 2 credds. I then sell them in game for 4 plat. I then use that money to buy crafted gear that is ridiculously priced (due to the ability to buy in game gold) that a normal player, who's not buying gold can't afford. I then start to distroy folks in pvp because of my full set of nice crafted gear that I basically paid real money for... You guys can fight it all you want. It CLEARY puts those who spend extra REAL money at an advantage. I've seen this happen before. I don't have to prove this to you as you will experience it first hand. Enjoy.
Low level twinking happens anyway even in games where ppl can't buy currency thru some means so your point is irrelevant. Besides, those players could get the gear it just takes longer that is all. Your point boils down to defeating time sync's not skill.
First off... It's a time "sink" as in, to sink time into. Not to sync as in bring together. Secondly, the point is not irrelevant. Using real world money to purchase something that can be sold in game for gold gives players who spend more cash an advantage. Even in your rebuttal you state that it would take a player who didn't spend the money longer to get the same gear.
And that advantage exists in every single MMO ever released. Do you think there would be so many gold sellers/spammers in these games if it wasn't a lucrative business? Therefore every single MMO is P2W. Or we could use the term P2W to actually mean something and not just refer to every MMO. But have it your way if you like.
Wrong. "That advantahe does not exist in every single MMO" and I'll explain why.
#1 Purchasing currency/item illegally (from 3rd party individual or service) creates a great amount of risk for the player to be scammed. Most who do this type of service would not go first, which means the player first must spend $ and relay on trust.
#2 When the company/game is not directly involved with selling things for $, safely to the playerbase, the playerbase is also far less aware about such activity and where to find it.
#3 There is also a great amount of risk involved in the player to get perma banned since the company enforces to protect its game and its players from being taken advantage of.
#4 Finally, the company CAN detect and prevent most illegal trades since they can easily spot em. Example, Blizzard...they have a log of all trades/transactions with their players so anytime they detect something suspecious like someone receiving 100k gold for NOTHING from a different account or any other trade that completely does not make sense they can prevent it. Plus they have chat log of all what's going on in the game.
Players play the game to achieve something, to test themself, to compete and so forth, especially in persistant MMORPG worlds where character progression is so crucial. Majority here who still argue that "you can't buy the best gear, etc with $" are wrong because players will gladly pilot (carry) individuals and do things they would not naturally do just to benefit from massive currency from some "whale" with hundreds of thousands in his bank account.
There are MMO's I won't mention how even when there is no such system in place prefer to keep as many subs as they can over banning those who are involved in these services and it is one of the reason the interest drops quickly in the game many players involved. I remember this guy Aetzu as well, they called him "the mounted" had almost every single mount collected in the game, mounts that you can't trade, but he simply bought the services and as time went by he had every single mount because players were wlling to do anything for a large sum of currency.
When the game/company fails to defend me from such players I simply choose not to play it. Some think they lose far less players because most don't care about these activities so they prefer to be very lenient and keep the income flooding from these subs.
The entire point of me achieving a goal and "winning" is greatly diminished since at the end it won't matter because most will be aware that I could easily just paid $ for it. I refuse to be part of such game, but others are welcome to.
Point #1 Someone has to go first and trust the other party. In the situation you laid out. After the character sells the credd or whatnot for gold. At that point, having the gold in his bank, someone has to go first don't they? They have to rely on trust anyways, don't they? "Hey, I'll pay 100k gold for someone to run me through x dungeon so I can get Y item". "Okay give me the gold first." "No, get me the item first." Same exact situation.
So that point is totally moot.
Point #2 The playerbase is less aware. Seriously? Is there a single person on this site that has logged into MMOs and not read gold seller spam? Complete with website addresses and pricing structure. Right in the general chat of their game or in private in game mail. Is it even possible to construe that 99% of the player base isn't fully aware that if they so chose, they can go buy gold/items on the internet? I think not. If selling gold wasn't extremely pervasive and wasn't a profitable business the business wouldn't exist. Supply meets demand, not the other way around.
#3 Perma Banning Do you think someone who is a "whale" as you put it, would have any difficulty purchasing another account to run the game if theirs was perma banned? When you get to the end game in any mmo you can find tons of people who illegally purchased accounts, gold, you name it, who weren't banned at all. Does it seem like this risk is really that great? I know that end game character account selling is an extremely common practice on websites and even the players themselves selling off their accounts to others.
#4 Tracking transactions It's been stated by many MMO companies that the money required to police this activity would not be worth the benefits they would acquire for it. There is very little of this trade tracking going on. They are looking for people exploiting the games systems and have very little time to go down the most likely humongous list of "suspicious" trade transactions.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
For example money isn't "that" important in wow, since all the best item drop from raids.
But money is far more important in GW2, eventhough GW2 have no stats progression. But money is more important since you can buy "everything" with money.
And money is even more important when you can buy power in games like Atlantica Online.
You must be pretty new around here...
People in WoW take you to ANY instance and let you get ANY PVP TITLE with the right amount of gold...
well, if you think money is important in wow... it'll be very important in GW2 and Atlantica Online etc for you.
Originally posted by Utinni If you're trying to win, you're playing MMORPG's wrong.
lol so true. I think all this p2w nonsense is just people trying to justify not playing or something. Developers know what pay to win means and they aren't really influenced by the " a cash shop can only sell things I don't want to have to buy " people. ( as in you can sell anything I think is stupid or junk but if I like having it, trying to sell it to me is p2w )
Originally posted by Utinni If you're trying to win, you're playing MMORPG's wrong.
lol so true. I think all this p2w nonsense is just people trying to justify not playing or something. Developers know what pay to win means and they aren't really influenced by the " a cash shop can only sell things I don't want to have to buy " people. ( as in you can sell anything I think is stupid or junk but if I like having it, trying to sell it to me is p2w )
+1
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1 Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
I logged into my account for the first time in 3 years to tell you that your OP was the stupidest MMO related post I've ever seen. You have no idea what you're talking about.
WildStar in my opinion lost me forever with the C.R.E.D.D., but it won't be the first MMORPG that has asked more $ from me than what I believe it's worth and thus not getting any in the process.
Receiving $7-8 from three players monthly is always a better deal both for the company and players than receiving $15 from one player and that is just one example.
I totally support and encourage the P2W model in an environment where I can try/play the game completely free and be in control if/what I can buy with my $. Thanks to the F2P/P2W model I've experienced a lot of games out there and of course most have not taken a dime, but through the many years some have like Battle of Immortals $20 and Dead Frontier another $20. I was 5+ years younger as well then and I was closer to the audience they are targeting (imo).
NCsoft with WildStar like EVE Online choose the road of B2P + P2P + P2W and as we all are aware this type of tactics were not as popular in the past. I don't remember Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies and many others employing these tactics. World of Warcraft and EVE Online did not have PLEX and cash shops for a long time as well.
I am currently playing a P2W MMORPG, but it's just a filler MMORPG that cost me $0,00, but that MMORPG is from the last century. WildStar on the other hand was just finished. This is 2014 and I expect and demand higher standards, better or as good than what's been/is available out there and voting with my wallet and sharing my opinons with the community is some of the things I can do as a player to dictate where the future of this genre is headed.
Those who want to see more MMO's in the future that charge their players B2P+P2P+Expansion fees and on top allow a safe place for players to gain services or currency with their $, take shortcuts and be at a significant advantage than the rest of their playerbase are welcome to support/buy WildStar.
Posters like the above are welcome to troll, but if all that just further proves my point. Coming here and just trolling the OP is far simpler and easy than bringing a constructive feedback that others could benefit from and take it as a useful information. I am thankful to all who've so far shared their opinions on this matter (those that agreed and disagreed) and most importantly thankful to MMORPG.com for having an experienced group of staff that does not randomly locks useful threads that become pray to some trolls.
WildStar in my opinion lost me forever with the C.R.E.D.D., but it won't be the first MMORPG that has asked more $ from me than what I believe it's worth and thus not getting any in the process.
Receiving $7-8 from three players monthly is always a better deal both for the company and players than receiving $15 from one player and that is just one example.
I totally support and encourage the P2W model in an environment where I can try/play the game completely free and be in control if/what I can buy with my $. Thanks to the F2P/P2W model I've experienced a lot of games out there and of course most have not taken a dime, but through the many years some have like Battle of Immortals $20 and Dead Frontier another $20. I was 5+ years younger as well then and I was closer to the audience they are targeting (imo).
NCsoft with WildStar like EVE Online choose the road of B2P + P2P + P2W and as we all are aware this type of tactics were not as popular in the past. I don't remember Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies and many others employing these tactics. World of Warcraft and EVE Online did not have PLEX and cash shops for a long time as well.
I am currently playing a P2W MMORPG, but it's just a filler MMORPG that cost me $0,00, but that MMORPG is from the last century. WildStar on the other hand was just finished. This is 2014 and I expect and demand higher standards, better or as good than what's been/is available out there and voting with my wallet and sharing my opinons with the community is some of the things I can do as a player to dictate where the future of this genre is headed.
Those who want to see more MMO's in the future that charge their players B2P+P2P+Expansion fees and on top allow a safe place for players to gain services or currency with their $, take shortcuts and be at a significant advantage than the rest of their playerbase are welcome to support/buy WildStar.
Well you dont know since you havent played it yet. You cant say you dont like a game if you dont know anything about it.
Originally posted by rodingo Looks like the majority realize that W* isn't p2W. Still funny that a few people believe a game without a cash shop is now p2w. So paying for a subscription is winning? Well I guess it depends on what game you are subscribed too.
No selling that sub for in game gold, to buy shinny gears while some poor slug grinds away for weeks for the same shinny gear is winning
Originally posted by rodingo Looks like the majority realize that W* isn't p2W. Still funny that a few people believe a game without a cash shop is now p2w. So paying for a subscription is winning? Well I guess it depends on what game you are subscribed too.
No selling that sub for in game gold, to buy shinny gears while some poor slug grinds away for weeks for the same shinny gear is winning
Originally posted by bcbully Originally posted by rodingo Looks like the majority realize that W* isn't p2W. Still funny that a few people believe a game without a cash shop is now p2w. So paying for a subscription is winning? Well I guess it depends on what game you are subscribed too.
No selling that sub for in game gold, to buy shinny gears while some poor slug grinds away for weeks for the same shinny gear is winning
When it comes right down to it, it's no different than me calling up my friend and asking him to pay my sub if I give him some gold in exchange. From an economy standpoint my friend isn't flooding the economy with new in-game-currency, it's just moved money from my inventory to his.
I don't have a problem with it and I don't think it's P2Win but the OP is kinda right in saying it's no difference from buying gold illegally. You basically ARE paying 20 bucks for in game gold but in this case it's just made legit from the devs.
Originally posted by Havekk For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a level 20 what have you, and I spend 40 smackers on 2 credds. I then sell them in game for 4 plat. I then use that money to buy crafted gear that is ridiculously priced (due to the ability to buy in game gold) that a normal player, who's not buying gold can't afford. I then start to distroy folks in pvp because of my full set of nice crafted gear that I basically paid real money for... You guys can fight it all you want. It CLEARY puts those who spend extra REAL money at an advantage. I've seen this happen before. I don't have to prove this to you as you will experience it first hand. Enjoy.
Low level twinking happens anyway even in games where ppl can't buy currency thru some means so your point is irrelevant. Besides, those players could get the gear it just takes longer that is all. Your point boils down to defeating time sync's not skill.
First off... It's a time "sink" as in, to sink time into. Not to sync as in bring together. Secondly, the point is not irrelevant. Using real world money to purchase something that can be sold in game for gold gives players who spend more cash an advantage. Even in your rebuttal you state that it would take a player who didn't spend the money longer to get the same gear.
And that advantage exists in every single MMO ever released. Do you think there would be so many gold sellers/spammers in these games if it wasn't a lucrative business? Therefore every single MMO is P2W. Or we could use the term P2W to actually mean something and not just refer to every MMO. But have it your way if you like.
You may be correct. There are morons who buy gold in every MMO and could potentially cause this situation. I must say though, at least in those games it's an illegal action and can get you banned if caught. In Wildstar, not only is it legal but encouraged by the company so they can make more money.
In the games with the gold sellers/buyers, the game company itself is not causing that situation. In Wildstar, they are selling CREDDs for real world money fully expecting them to be sold in game for in game currency... and they should. It's more money for them. I don't begrudge a company from making money, it's kinda the point. But let's not sit here and act like it won't have an effect.
My point is.. If I can spend 40-60 in real money and have an advantage over someone who's not willing to spend the money... which is sanctioned by the company... it is an advantage over another play that was paid for. I don't play the game and I don't really care about the CREDDs, but don't let your love of the game blind you.
Originally posted by Havekk For the sake of argument, let's say I'm a level 20 what have you, and I spend 40 smackers on 2 credds. I then sell them in game for 4 plat. I then use that money to buy crafted gear that is ridiculously priced (due to the ability to buy in game gold) that a normal player, who's not buying gold can't afford. I then start to distroy folks in pvp because of my full set of nice crafted gear that I basically paid real money for... You guys can fight it all you want. It CLEARY puts those who spend extra REAL money at an advantage. I've seen this happen before. I don't have to prove this to you as you will experience it first hand. Enjoy.
Low level twinking happens anyway even in games where ppl can't buy currency thru some means so your point is irrelevant. Besides, those players could get the gear it just takes longer that is all. Your point boils down to defeating time sync's not skill.
First off... It's a time "sink" as in, to sink time into. Not to sync as in bring together. Secondly, the point is not irrelevant. Using real world money to purchase something that can be sold in game for gold gives players who spend more cash an advantage. Even in your rebuttal you state that it would take a player who didn't spend the money longer to get the same gear.
And that advantage exists in every single MMO ever released. Do you think there would be so many gold sellers/spammers in these games if it wasn't a lucrative business? Therefore every single MMO is P2W. Or we could use the term P2W to actually mean something and not just refer to every MMO. But have it your way if you like.
Wrong. "That advantahe does not exist in every single MMO" and I'll explain why.
#1 Purchasing currency/item illegally (from 3rd party individual or service) creates a great amount of risk for the player to be scammed. Most who do this type of service would not go first, which means the player first must spend $ and relay on trust.
#2 When the company/game is not directly involved with selling things for $, safely to the playerbase, the playerbase is also far less aware about such activity and where to find it.
#3 There is also a great amount of risk involved on the player to get perma banned since the company enforces to protect its game and its players from being taken advantage of.
#4 Finally, the company CAN detect and prevent most illegal trades since they can easily spot em. Example, Blizzard...they have a log of all trades/transactions with their players so anytime they detect something suspecious like someone receiving 100k gold for NOTHING from a different account or any other trade that completely does not make sense they can prevent it. Plus they have chat log of all what's going on in the game.
Players play the game to achieve something, to test themself, to compete and so forth, especially in persistant MMORPG worlds where character progression is so crucial. Majority here who still argue that "you can't buy the best gear, etc with $" are wrong because players will gladly pilot (carry) individuals and do things they would not naturally do just to benefit from massive currency from some "whale" with hundreds of thousands in his bank account.
There are MMO's I won't mention how even when there is no such system in place prefer to keep as many subs as they can over banning those who are involved in these services and it is one of the reason the interest drops quickly in the game many players involved. I remember this guy Aetzu as well, they called him "the mounted" had almost every single mount collected in the game, mounts that you can't trade, but he simply bought the services and as time went by he had every single mount because players were wlling to do anything for a large sum of currency.
When the game/company fails to defend me from such players I simply choose not to play it. Some think they lose far less players because most don't care about these activities so they prefer to be very lenient and keep the income flooding from these subs.
The entire point of me achieving a goal and "winning" is greatly diminished since at the end it won't matter because most will be aware that I could easily just paid $ for it. I refuse to be part of such game, but others are welcome to.
Wrong. Having a geared low level character does not equal a pay to win. If that is true then WoW is the supreme pay to win since you can get the best gear in the game by spending time to earn the badges to spend on gear.
You can also just have a high level character give you stuff. That is not pay to win.
With Credd you can only buy so much in a month. The person with more money does nothing since they cant buy as much as they want. There is a CD everytime you buy a credd.
Also with WoW you can trade 10 20k to get 200k and blizzards system wont notice.
You cant just make up whatever you want to add something to a definition. P2W has a definition already and it is not what you think it is.
OMG... for real? Ok... take the level out of it since you seem to be stuck on the whole "twink" thing. It could be a player of any fucking level that has a RIDICULOUS amount of money by purchasing CREDDS with real money and selling them in game.
Also.. CREDD can be purchased once every 22 hours. So yeah, you can only buy 30 in one month................... One a day. They're really making sure they limit folks on that. That's why it's 22 hours and not 24.
I'm just gonna stop now and wait and see all of you bitching in a month about the economy that has been fucked by CREDD.
Comments
First off... It's a time "sink" as in, to sink time into. Not to sync as in bring together. Secondly, the point is not irrelevant. Using real world money to purchase something that can be sold in game for gold gives players who spend more cash an advantage. Even in your rebuttal you state that it would take a player who didn't spend the money longer to get the same gear.
And that advantage exists in every single MMO ever released. Do you think there would be so many gold sellers/spammers in these games if it wasn't a lucrative business? Therefore every single MMO is P2W. Or we could use the term P2W to actually mean something and not just refer to every MMO. But have it your way if you like.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
Wrong. "That advantahe does not exist in every single MMO" and I'll explain why.
#1 Purchasing currency/item illegally (from 3rd party individual or service) creates a great amount of risk for the player to be scammed. Most who do this type of service would not go first, which means the player first must spend $ and relay on trust.
#2 When the company/game is not directly involved with selling things for $, safely to the playerbase, the playerbase is also far less aware about such activity and where to find it.
#3 There is also a great amount of risk involved on the player to get perma banned since the company enforces to protect its game and its players from being taken advantage of.
#4 Finally, the company CAN detect and prevent most illegal trades since they can easily spot em. Example, Blizzard...they have a log of all trades/transactions with their players so anytime they detect something suspecious like someone receiving 100k gold for NOTHING from a different account or any other trade that completely does not make sense they can prevent it. Plus they have chat log of all what's going on in the game.
Players play the game to achieve something, to test themself, to compete and so forth, especially in persistant MMORPG worlds where character progression is so crucial. Majority here who still argue that "you can't buy the best gear, etc with $" are wrong because players will gladly pilot (carry) individuals and do things they would not naturally do just to benefit from massive currency from some "whale" with hundreds of thousands in his bank account.
There are MMO's I won't mention that prefer to keep as many subs as they can over banning those who are involved in these services and it is one of the reason the interest drops quickly in the game many players involved. I remember this guy Aetzu as well, they called him "the mounted" had almost every single mount collected in the game, mounts that you can't trade, but he simply bought the services and as time went by he had every single mount because players were wlling to do anything for a large sum of currency.
When the game/company fails to defend me from such players I simply choose not to play it. Some think they lose far less players because most don't care about these activities so they prefer to be very lenient and keep the income flooding from these subs.
The entire point of me achieving a goal and "winning" is greatly diminished since at the end it won't matter because most will be aware that I could easily just paid $ for it. I refuse to be part of such game, but others are welcome to. I value my time and I want my success to be rewarding. If I don't feel that it's not happening and MMORPG's with persistant worlds where time, determination is crucial to progress a character should be the last to employ such systems in place that allow shortcuts and advantages to players who are willing to fork $.
I also dislike the "double standard" rule where the company would gladly take the $ from these "whales", but restrict its players to to do the same so only they can benefit without any competition.
Wrong. Having a geared low level character does not equal a pay to win. If that is true then WoW is the supreme pay to win since you can get the best gear in the game by spending time to earn the badges to spend on gear.
You can also just have a high level character give you stuff. That is not pay to win.
With Credd you can only buy so much in a month. The person with more money does nothing since they cant buy as much as they want. There is a CD everytime you buy a credd.
Also with WoW you can trade 10 20k to get 200k and blizzards system wont notice.
You cant just make up whatever you want to add something to a definition. P2W has a definition already and it is not what you think it is.
#1 There is less risk involved than you think. Remember that the majority of these sites use some sort of payment provider (ie PayPal) to facilitate this. There are very few where you can drop off cash or where they will pick up cash from you. The thing about "digital" goods is that the burden of proof is on the vendor. So if they can't explicitly prove they delivered that item, then they're screwed. Sorry, there's little or no risk involved in this regard. At least not for a real money transaction.
#2 Based on your logic, since the government doesn't sell drugs to their citizens, the citizens are much less aware about it. I don't agree with that logic at all. Maybe for those with blinders on, playing the game as a solo game, this would be the case. If you spend any amount of time in chat, you know about it.
#3 What you say in point #4 applies here. While 3 is a great point, unless the person isn't actively spending real money, the developer will generally wave a stick at them and tell them they've been a very bad boy or girl. When you're operating with a few thousand (tens of thousands), you can't be banning people. You give them a warning, fix the damn problem and move on. Blizz is a different story. They've got users to burn (and probably want the damn game to die at this point).
#4 I'm sure there is a certain amount of monitoring that goes on, but not as much as you might think. Like you said, why do they care, unless it's a problem.
Give me 3 examples of games that are NOT P2W based on your definition of P2W
Crazkanuk
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Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Point #1 Someone has to go first and trust the other party. In the situation you laid out. After the character sells the credd or whatnot for gold. At that point, having the gold in his bank, someone has to go first don't they? They have to rely on trust anyways, don't they? "Hey, I'll pay 100k gold for someone to run me through x dungeon so I can get Y item". "Okay give me the gold first." "No, get me the item first." Same exact situation.
So that point is totally moot.
Point #2 The playerbase is less aware. Seriously? Is there a single person on this site that has logged into MMOs and not read gold seller spam? Complete with website addresses and pricing structure. Right in the general chat of their game or in private in game mail. Is it even possible to construe that 99% of the player base isn't fully aware that if they so chose, they can go buy gold/items on the internet? I think not. If selling gold wasn't extremely pervasive and wasn't a profitable business the business wouldn't exist. Supply meets demand, not the other way around.
#3 Perma Banning Do you think someone who is a "whale" as you put it, would have any difficulty purchasing another account to run the game if theirs was perma banned? When you get to the end game in any mmo you can find tons of people who illegally purchased accounts, gold, you name it, who weren't banned at all. Does it seem like this risk is really that great? I know that end game character account selling is an extremely common practice on websites and even the players themselves selling off their accounts to others.
#4 Tracking transactions It's been stated by many MMO companies that the money required to police this activity would not be worth the benefits they would acquire for it. There is very little of this trade tracking going on. They are looking for people exploiting the games systems and have very little time to go down the most likely humongous list of "suspicious" trade transactions.
Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.
well, if you think money is important in wow... it'll be very important in GW2 and Atlantica Online etc for you.
lol so true. I think all this p2w nonsense is just people trying to justify not playing or something. Developers know what pay to win means and they aren't really influenced by the " a cash shop can only sell things I don't want to have to buy " people. ( as in you can sell anything I think is stupid or junk but if I like having it, trying to sell it to me is p2w )
+1
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1
Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
WildStar in my opinion lost me forever with the C.R.E.D.D., but it won't be the first MMORPG that has asked more $ from me than what I believe it's worth and thus not getting any in the process.
Receiving $7-8 from three players monthly is always a better deal both for the company and players than receiving $15 from one player and that is just one example.
I totally support and encourage the P2W model in an environment where I can try/play the game completely free and be in control if/what I can buy with my $. Thanks to the F2P/P2W model I've experienced a lot of games out there and of course most have not taken a dime, but through the many years some have like Battle of Immortals $20 and Dead Frontier another $20. I was 5+ years younger as well then and I was closer to the audience they are targeting (imo).
NCsoft with WildStar like EVE Online choose the road of B2P + P2P + P2W and as we all are aware this type of tactics were not as popular in the past. I don't remember Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies and many others employing these tactics. World of Warcraft and EVE Online did not have PLEX and cash shops for a long time as well.
I am currently playing a P2W MMORPG, but it's just a filler MMORPG that cost me $0,00, but that MMORPG is from the last century. WildStar on the other hand was just finished. This is 2014 and I expect and demand higher standards, better or as good than what's been/is available out there and voting with my wallet and sharing my opinons with the community is some of the things I can do as a player to dictate where the future of this genre is headed.
Those who want to see more MMO's in the future that charge their players B2P+P2P+Expansion fees and on top allow a safe place for players to gain services or currency with their $, take shortcuts and be at a significant advantage than the rest of their playerbase are welcome to support/buy WildStar.
Posters like the above are welcome to troll, but if all that just further proves my point. Coming here and just trolling the OP is far simpler and easy than bringing a constructive feedback that others could benefit from and take it as a useful information. I am thankful to all who've so far shared their opinions on this matter (those that agreed and disagreed) and most importantly thankful to MMORPG.com for having an experienced group of staff that does not randomly locks useful threads that become pray to some trolls.
Well you dont know since you havent played it yet. You cant say you dont like a game if you dont know anything about it.
No selling that sub for in game gold, to buy shinny gears while some poor slug grinds away for weeks for the same shinny gear is winning
haha loser get a job!
It's not pay to win, I don't care to explain it as others have prior.
No it isnt.
haha loser get a job!
lol shinny
and also you're wrong lol
When it comes right down to it, it's no different than me calling up my friend and asking him to pay my sub if I give him some gold in exchange. From an economy standpoint my friend isn't flooding the economy with new in-game-currency, it's just moved money from my inventory to his.
I don't have a problem with it and I don't think it's P2Win but the OP is kinda right in saying it's no difference from buying gold illegally. You basically ARE paying 20 bucks for in game gold but in this case it's just made legit from the devs.
You may be correct. There are morons who buy gold in every MMO and could potentially cause this situation. I must say though, at least in those games it's an illegal action and can get you banned if caught. In Wildstar, not only is it legal but encouraged by the company so they can make more money.
In the games with the gold sellers/buyers, the game company itself is not causing that situation. In Wildstar, they are selling CREDDs for real world money fully expecting them to be sold in game for in game currency... and they should. It's more money for them. I don't begrudge a company from making money, it's kinda the point. But let's not sit here and act like it won't have an effect.
My point is.. If I can spend 40-60 in real money and have an advantage over someone who's not willing to spend the money... which is sanctioned by the company... it is an advantage over another play that was paid for. I don't play the game and I don't really care about the CREDDs, but don't let your love of the game blind you.
OMG... for real? Ok... take the level out of it since you seem to be stuck on the whole "twink" thing. It could be a player of any fucking level that has a RIDICULOUS amount of money by purchasing CREDDS with real money and selling them in game.
Also.. CREDD can be purchased once every 22 hours. So yeah, you can only buy 30 in one month................... One a day. They're really making sure they limit folks on that. That's why it's 22 hours and not 24.
I'm just gonna stop now and wait and see all of you bitching in a month about the economy that has been fucked by CREDD.
Same scenario. I earned the gold and gave it to someone.
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"Searchers after horror haunt strange, far places..." ~ H.P.Lovecraft, "From Beyond"
Member Since March 2004