The impossible task

sunshadow21 · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

wait...lets step back a second.

The only reason I am on ESO forums is because someone said its an 'impossible' task to make ESO more like ES.

Instead of going down this insane rabbit role of trying to explain how ESO is not a class system but rather a skill based system and how developing a skill based system negitively affects other aspects of the game because of engery and focus (despite having just trying to convice me that ESO is skill based!) how about this win win response.

'whoever said making ESO more like ES is an impossible task is simply wrong, however, we like the game as its designed now and as a result we feel the choices made to make it as such is a good one.'

much easier..you win and I win and then I have nothing else to refute.

I am not here to trash your game, I am not here to suggest its design is flawed. The only reason I am here is because of the use of the word 'impossible'

I don't see how Zenimax could have made ESO any more ES like in any major way aside from having all of the traditional guilds in the game from the start, so I would still have to say that it would be impossible for ESO to be more like the single player games, at least as far as the major aspects are concerned. There is some fine tuning that can be done, but really, the development of the genre as a whole is not a a point where anybody could have done much better without spending a lot of cash and setting out to redesign the entire genre. Even then, the community as a whole tends to behave in ways that forces companies to make decisions that tend to go against the goal of replicating the single game experience. So, if the word impossible is your only hangup, than we will have to agree to disagree, because functionally, it is impossible, even if theory suggests that it's not. And until someone is willing to pony up the cash to make theory reality, it's going to stay that way. Expecting Zenimax to be that company when this was their first foray into the MMO genre probably was not a reasonable expectation.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

wait...lets step back a second.

The only reason I am on ESO forums is because someone said its an 'impossible' task to make ESO more like ES.

Instead of going down this insane rabbit role of trying to explain how ESO is not a class system but rather a skill based system and how developing a skill based system negitively affects other aspects of the game because of engery and focus (despite having just trying to convice me that ESO is skill based!) how about this win win response.

'whoever said making ESO more like ES is an impossible task is simply wrong, however, we like the game as its designed now and as a result we feel the choices made to make it as such is a good one.'

much easier..you win and I win and then I have nothing else to refute.

I am not here to trash your game, I am not here to suggest its design is flawed. The only reason I am here is because of the use of the word 'impossible'

I don't see how Zenimax could have made ESO any more ES like in any major way aside from having all of the traditional guilds in the game from the start, so I would still have to say that it would be impossible for ESO to be more like the single player games, at least as far as the major aspects are concerned. There is some fine tuning that can be done, but really, the development of the genre as a whole is not a a point where anybody could have done much better without spending a lot of cash and setting out to redesign the entire genre. Even then, the community as a whole tends to behave in ways that forces companies to make decisions that tend to go against the goal of replicating the single game experience. So, if the word impossible is your only hangup, than we will have to agree to disagree, because functionally, it is impossible, even if theory suggests that it's not. And until someone is willing to pony up the cash to make theory reality, it's going to stay that way. Expecting Zenimax to be that company when this was their first foray into the MMO genre probably was not a reasonable expectation.

1. you are saying that ESO is a skill based game.

2. you are saying that a skill based game suffers because it takes away resources away from doing other things.

3. I am suggesting (just now) that a skill based system is easier to implement then a class based system.

Maybe instead stop calling things not possible that currently exist in MMOs that have been online longer than ESO? just maybe.

I can think of only 3 features in ES single player that do not already exist in an MMO. 2 of which are save and modding

Kicksave321 · June 2014

Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

sunshadow21 · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

wait...lets step back a second.

The only reason I am on ESO forums is because someone said its an 'impossible' task to make ESO more like ES.

Instead of going down this insane rabbit role of trying to explain how ESO is not a class system but rather a skill based system and how developing a skill based system negitively affects other aspects of the game because of engery and focus (despite having just trying to convice me that ESO is skill based!) how about this win win response.

'whoever said making ESO more like ES is an impossible task is simply wrong, however, we like the game as its designed now and as a result we feel the choices made to make it as such is a good one.'

much easier..you win and I win and then I have nothing else to refute.

I am not here to trash your game, I am not here to suggest its design is flawed. The only reason I am here is because of the use of the word 'impossible'

I don't see how Zenimax could have made ESO any more ES like in any major way aside from having all of the traditional guilds in the game from the start, so I would still have to say that it would be impossible for ESO to be more like the single player games, at least as far as the major aspects are concerned. There is some fine tuning that can be done, but really, the development of the genre as a whole is not a a point where anybody could have done much better without spending a lot of cash and setting out to redesign the entire genre. Even then, the community as a whole tends to behave in ways that forces companies to make decisions that tend to go against the goal of replicating the single game experience. So, if the word impossible is your only hangup, than we will have to agree to disagree, because functionally, it is impossible, even if theory suggests that it's not. And until someone is willing to pony up the cash to make theory reality, it's going to stay that way. Expecting Zenimax to be that company when this was their first foray into the MMO genre probably was not a reasonable expectation.

1. you are saying that ESO is a skill based game.

2. you are saying that a skill based game suffers because it takes away resources away from doing other things.

3. I am suggesting (just now) that a skill based system is easier to implement then a class based system.

Maybe instead stop calling things not possible that currently exist in MMOs that have been online longer than ESO? just maybe.

I can think of only 3 features in ES single player that do not already exist in an MMO. 2 of which are save and modding

Unfortunately, modding is one of the things that tends to define the ES franchise, so not being able to port that over is a pretty big issue for making ESO anymore ES like.

As for you skill based argument, it really depends on the implementation. Wurm's completely open ended implementation is actually harder to implement over the life of the game because of balance issues and the need to build in time sinks and determining the right speed for skill gain. ESO's, much like SWG's or EVE's, is actually a bit easier because it provides devs some kind of framework to work with when adding new content. Initial implementation of a pure skill system may be easier, but long term development costs and difficulties actually make it harder than those that incorporate at least some elements of the class system.

And again, it's not the individual pieces that are the problem; it's putting them all together in a way that the community can't/won't abuse to the point that the game is killed within a month of release while the company is still able to make enough money to stay in existence. This is where most MMOs falter, and where the impossible tag has stuck itself to, and it's an issue that requires a change in both how people on both sides of the process approach the genre. Devs can do more, but only to a point before having to deal with the human tendency within the player community to abuse everything as much as possible with no thought or care about how it affects anyone else.

Distopia · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

so all skills in the game are open to me from day 1?

a skill based game means two things, one, no classes and two, you can skill up in any skill in the game without making a major change to your character.

If you are saying Elder Scrolls is a skill based game then there are several problems.

1. it means the worlds worst PR ever created was done by zenimax in misleading its customers.

2. making a game like ES single players is more and more starting to look like it actually is possible instead of 'impossible'

agree?

Not all skill based systems give you access to all skills immediately, not even in single player games. ESO is clearly not what you want in a skill based system, but it is still driven by the same basic mechanic that the single player games use: skills go up as you use them. If you look at what are generally considered skill based MMOs, and even in skill based single player games, you will find that the structure ESO uses is pretty common. The completely open ended skill progression is far from the only game in town for skill based games.

Your second point would be fine if it didn't ignore that single elements aren't the problem in recreating the single player games. It's the entire package that creates headaches; every little change has ripple effects that impact the entire game, and some changes are necessary.

which game that calls itself a Skill based game does not?

please provide evidence for your claim.

and again, if ESO is a skill based game then Zenimax was terrible as community communication

I'm pretty much done on this site ( hard to find a decent conversation any longer, this used to be a good place for that), but I had to un-delete (didn't realize they had that feature til now) to respond here. First to your overall point, yes skill based systems are possible in an MMO environment, SWG, UO, DF, and many others are/were just that. However calling ESO a class based game shows a profound amount of inexperience playing it, as it's class structure is about as limited as the class structure in Morrowind at least on paper. By that I mean I don't know what works well as you approach elder status, I didn't make it that far in Beta.

In comparison on the surface they're very close, the biggest difference being the lack of choice to not use a base class to start with. In Morrowind your skills are limited depending on what you chose as a minor or major skill, major skills are easier to level up while minor skills have a soft cap.

In ESO's case think of your class choice as your major skills, yet your minor skills aren't so limited in what you can do with them during the leveling process. Another big difference would be XP gain not being solely tied to use, at least I don't think it was in ESO. I might be wrong there.

I also think it's important to mention something most TES modders will know, even Skyrim uses a more class based structure under the hood. You essentially build your class through the perk system. It's not 100% skill based in the sense you think it is (SWG like). All NPCs adhere to a class structure for balance reasons. The options they give you as a player also play into this, hence there only being so many combat style options to choose from.

Anyway, I just find it odd you keep calling ESO a class based game.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motives instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Azoth · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motives instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Did you quote the devs post yet ? Where he said that making ESO more like skyrim online was impossible ?

Kicksave321 · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motovies instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Oh definitely have a "fair" conversation but I could be wrong and feel free to inform me if I am...but how can you and another poster have a "fair" conversation if you are completely and entirely bias to the topic?

I dont think this is forum to discuss your political bias either.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by Kicksave321
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motovies instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Oh definitely have a "fair" conversation but I could be wrong and feel free to inform me if I am...but how can you and another poster have a "fair" conversation if you are completely and entirely bias to the topic?

I dont think this is forum to discuss your political bias either.

it is completely possible, in fact, its common place.

example:

'the sun is hot'

my bias toward the sun has nothing to do with the statement above.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motives instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Did you quote the devs post yet ? Where he said that making ESO more like skyrim online was impossible ?

as I asked before.

If it is prooven that I took the statement completely out of context and he didnt mean what I thought he meant then does that mean it is possible?

Think about what you are asking

Azoth · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motives instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Did you quote the devs post yet ? Where he said that making ESO more like skyrim online was impossible ?

as I asked before.

If it is prooven that I took the statement completely out of context and he didnt mean what I thought he meant then does that mean it is possible?

Think about what you are asking

I never said it wasn't possible to make an mmo more like skyrim online, or more like morrowind online or more like daggerfall online. All of those games would be different tho.

You are the one claiming that a dev said something was impossible and wen't on a crusade to prove him wrong. Yet the guy probably never said anything like that thus making all this post useless.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motives instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Did you quote the devs post yet ? Where he said that making ESO more like skyrim online was impossible ?

as I asked before.

If it is prooven that I took the statement completely out of context and he didnt mean what I thought he meant then does that mean it is possible?

Think about what you are asking

I never said it wasn't possible to make an mmo more like skyrim online, or more like morrowind online or more like daggerfall online. All of those games would be different tho.

You are the one claiming that a dev said something was impossible and wen't on a crusade to prove him wrong. Yet the guy probably never said anything like that thus making all this post useless.

basically it sounds like you and I agree then.

Kicksave321 · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motovies instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Oh definitely have a "fair" conversation but I could be wrong and feel free to inform me if I am...but how can you and another poster have a "fair" conversation if you are completely and entirely bias to the topic?

I dont think this is forum to discuss your political bias either.

it is completely possible, in fact, its common place.

No it's not common to have a fair discussion with a person who extremely bias and has taken a subject personally. That person will allow their personal feelings obstruct from a fair constructive conversation...that is common knowledge

Azoth · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motives instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Did you quote the devs post yet ? Where he said that making ESO more like skyrim online was impossible ?

as I asked before.

If it is prooven that I took the statement completely out of context and he didnt mean what I thought he meant then does that mean it is possible?

Think about what you are asking

I never said it wasn't possible to make an mmo more like skyrim online, or more like morrowind online or more like daggerfall online. All of those games would be different tho.

You are the one claiming that a dev said something was impossible and wen't on a crusade to prove him wrong. Yet the guy probably never said anything like that thus making all this post useless.

basically it sounds like you and I agree then.

Wouldn't know till you show us the quote. Your op is about disagreeing with something a dev said. To know if I agree with you are not or rather with the dev in question I would have to know what it is you actually think is wrong.

I don't think anyone disagree that you could make ESO more like skyrim online. But taking skyrim and making it a mmo with all the features.. yea that's impossible, you even admitted so yourself.

So until you show us the quote, no one can know if they agree with you or not.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motives instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Did you quote the devs post yet ? Where he said that making ESO more like skyrim online was impossible ?

as I asked before.

If it is prooven that I took the statement completely out of context and he didnt mean what I thought he meant then does that mean it is possible?

Think about what you are asking

I never said it wasn't possible to make an mmo more like skyrim online, or more like morrowind online or more like daggerfall online. All of those games would be different tho.

You are the one claiming that a dev said something was impossible and wen't on a crusade to prove him wrong. Yet the guy probably never said anything like that thus making all this post useless.

basically it sounds like you and I agree then.

Wouldn't know till you show us the quote. Your op is about disagreeing with something a dev said. To know if I agree with you are not or rather with the dev in question I would have to know what it is you actually think is wrong.

I don't think anyone disagree that you could make ESO more like skyrim online. But taking skyrim and making it a mmo with all the features.. yea that's impossible, you even admitted so yourself.

So until you show us the quote, no one can know if they agree with you or not.

all that is required to agree with me is this

'its not impossible to make an MMO like ES single player'

all other points are static that take away from the topic at hand.

Thus you agree, thank you.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by Kicksave321

No it's not common to have a fair discussion with a person who extremely bias and has taken a subject personally. That person will allow their personal feelings obstruct from a fair constructive conversation...that is common knowledge

You are wrong.

'the sun is hot'

my bias toward the sun doesnt have anything to do if the statement above is fact or not. bias doesnt not change truth.

it only makes your job a little harder...are you up for it?

Loke666 · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
I read a post which suggest that making ESO more like Skyrim would be an impossible task.

I want to refer specific items that would be easy and items that I personally think many ES fans would think are a standard requirement.

1. skill based, not class based. This is easy, not hard.

2. no factions...what?...player created factions....easy...not hard.

3. true open world...small team MMOs have done this....not imposible

4. make progress not dependent on questing....easy not hard. (I am assuming that progress in this game is much easier if you quest).

The implication that making ESO like an ES game is an impossible task is very frustrating to hear. indie developers with far less money have done it.

1. Yes and no. Making the system ain't no problems but balancing it is hard work. Far from impossible but still hard work.

2. Player created factions have worked in other games (like Lineage), it would require some work but it would probably be the easiest fix if you want a game similar to Skyrim (or better, Daggerfall). You could also let players align themselves to a faction like a country or things like thieves and warrior guilds instead, that would work as well.

3. With good graphics it is only possible with a huge budget, and remaking that now is as close to impossible as you can get. The game would almost have to be remade from scratch, or at least the engine.

4. As the game is right now, replacing the quests (or most of the quests, TES games still have some) with stuff like mob grinding, actual dungeons or stuff like DEs is a lot of work.

These things would indeed have been possible if they started to work on the game with them in mind, right now you could possibly do the first 2 things but it is far from easy.

Getting rid of the phasing, bots and adding some better dungeons is right now a far better idea though. Wishing that Zenimax would have done something different in the past is just pointless.

Azoth · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motives instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Did you quote the devs post yet ? Where he said that making ESO more like skyrim online was impossible ?

as I asked before.

If it is prooven that I took the statement completely out of context and he didnt mean what I thought he meant then does that mean it is possible?

Think about what you are asking

I never said it wasn't possible to make an mmo more like skyrim online, or more like morrowind online or more like daggerfall online. All of those games would be different tho.

You are the one claiming that a dev said something was impossible and wen't on a crusade to prove him wrong. Yet the guy probably never said anything like that thus making all this post useless.

basically it sounds like you and I agree then.

Wouldn't know till you show us the quote. Your op is about disagreeing with something a dev said. To know if I agree with you are not or rather with the dev in question I would have to know what it is you actually think is wrong.

I don't think anyone disagree that you could make ESO more like skyrim online. But taking skyrim and making it a mmo with all the features.. yea that's impossible, you even admitted so yourself.

So until you show us the quote, no one can know if they agree with you or not.

all that is required to agree with me is this

'its not impossible to make an MMO like ES single player'

all other points are static that take away from the topic at hand.

Thus you agree, thank you.

You have some major reading problems. I think it's impossible to take an ES game and make it online while retaining all it's features. If it was what the dev said, then I agree with him and not with you.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Azoth
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Dear OP,

Please address a few facts that puts into question your motive or purpose of this post.

1) You think Zenimax is the worst mmo company.

2) You have never played ESO.

3) You are upset Zenimax is suing Oculus.

4) anything anyone says to you, you discredit.

So I'm just curios as to why you are posting on a company and Video Game you clearly have a personal beef with. Now I would ask you don't come back with some of your smart ass comments like you have so many times in this thread alone, seriously I am truly curios as to the point?

all true and all has nothing to do with this thread

instead of me trying to get everyone to focus on the word 'impossible' and move them away from what we might consider good game design would you rather I talk about the subjects you posted? or would you rather I be somewhat fair about this and keep the subject to what its intended?

attacking a persons motives instead of his points is admitting you have failed the debate. (something fox news should learn:)

Did you quote the devs post yet ? Where he said that making ESO more like skyrim online was impossible ?

as I asked before.

If it is prooven that I took the statement completely out of context and he didnt mean what I thought he meant then does that mean it is possible?

Think about what you are asking

I never said it wasn't possible to make an mmo more like skyrim online, or more like morrowind online or more like daggerfall online. All of those games would be different tho.

You are the one claiming that a dev said something was impossible and wen't on a crusade to prove him wrong. Yet the guy probably never said anything like that thus making all this post useless.

basically it sounds like you and I agree then.

Wouldn't know till you show us the quote. Your op is about disagreeing with something a dev said. To know if I agree with you are not or rather with the dev in question I would have to know what it is you actually think is wrong.

I don't think anyone disagree that you could make ESO more like skyrim online. But taking skyrim and making it a mmo with all the features.. yea that's impossible, you even admitted so yourself.

So until you show us the quote, no one can know if they agree with you or not.

all that is required to agree with me is this

'its not impossible to make an MMO like ES single player'

all other points are static that take away from the topic at hand.

Thus you agree, thank you.

You have some major reading problems. I think it's impossible to take an ES game and make it online while retaining all it's features. If it was what the dev said, then I agree with him and not with you.

well and you thinking its impossible is the only reason I am in the ESO forums

so...let us continue the debate.

I can think of only 3 features in ES that are not in an MMO. and using Darkfall as an example I think ALL the features in ES are in Darkfall.

The only features I can think of are:

1. saving a game

2. modding

3. kiiling NPCs that never respawn.

So given I regularlly play MMOs with features in question I am here to tell you personally that it IS possible

sunshadow21 · June 2014

Originally posted by Loke666

These things would indeed have been possible if they started to work on the game with them in mind, right now you could possibly do the first 2 things but it is far from easy.

They would have been easier if done from the start, but still very expensive and not something that a company new to the genre would mess with. Even with more money and taking more chances, some of the things still wouldn't have worked. Zenimax did nothing to help itself, but really, the accepted tools of the genre didn't give them much to work with, and for all that everyone claims they want something completely different, whenever someone tries to do so, they usually get punished for it by the very same people demanding it. It's a no win situation that, quite frankly, I expected them to do far worse with. It's not a perfect game by any means, but it's a step in the right direction at least, which is more than most games out there can claim.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by Loke666

These things would indeed have been possible if they started to work on the game with them in mind, right now you could possibly do the first 2 things but it is far from easy.

They would have been easier if done from the start, but still very expensive and not something that a company new to the genre would mess with. Even with more money and taking more chances, some of the things still wouldn't have worked. Zenimax did nothing to help itself, but really, the accepted tools of the genre didn't give them much to work with, and for all that everyone claims they want something completely different, whenever someone tries to do so, they usually get punished for it by the very same people demanding it. It's a no win situation that, quite frankly, I expected them to do far worse with. It's not a perfect game by any means, but it's a step in the right direction at least, which is more than most games out there can claim.

so if it makes everyone happy we can divide this into two questions

'is it possible to make ESO more like ES single player NOW'

'Is it possible to make ESO more like ES single player given a 'blank sheet'

well the answer to both is yes however the answer to the first one is that it would be very expensive, the answer to the second one is that it would not be very expensive and in fact might even cost LESS

Loke666 · June 2014

Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by Loke666

These things would indeed have been possible if they started to work on the game with them in mind, right now you could possibly do the first 2 things but it is far from easy.

They would have been easier if done from the start, but still very expensive and not something that a company new to the genre would mess with. Even with more money and taking more chances, some of the things still wouldn't have worked. Zenimax did nothing to help itself, but really, the accepted tools of the genre didn't give them much to work with, and for all that everyone claims they want something completely different, whenever someone tries to do so, they usually get punished for it by the very same people demanding it. It's a no win situation that, quite frankly, I expected them to do far worse with. It's not a perfect game by any means, but it's a step in the right direction at least, which is more than most games out there can claim.

I dunno, CCP was new when they made Eve and Meridian 59, UO, AC and even Wow were all made by people new to the genre. It might have been a better idea and might not, impossible to tell right now. The game did have a decent budget so anything is possible.

What I can tell is that overuse of phasing and copy-paste dungeons were a bad idea, a really bad idea. The VR levels were not that great either but the phasing needs to be fixed and the sooner the better.

sunshadow21 · June 2014

Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I can think of only 3 features in ES that are not in an MMO. and using Darkfall as an example I think ALL the features in ES are in Darkfall.

Darkfall is also a niche game that has a lot of features and specific implementations that most people don't care for. Same with most games that try to emulate that style of game, including ESO. What you are asking for is a mainstream game that does it, and that, for right now, is impossible. The tools to successfully blend all of the different parts needed with the realities of what people will play simply are not there, and in many cases would require a change in community behavior and taste in games to effectively implement. ESO is as close as you're going to get right now if you want to look at the complete package. If you prefer to focus on specific aspects, there are a few other games that do those aspects really well, but at the cost of other parts of the game. Having such a game hit WoW-like success, though, is basically never going to happen, as someone will always find something about the implementation, much the way you found the skill system in ESO, to gripe about.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by sunshadow21
Originally posted by SEANMCAD

I can think of only 3 features in ES that are not in an MMO. and using Darkfall as an example I think ALL the features in ES are in Darkfall.

Darkfall is also a niche game that has a lot of features and specific implementations that most people don't care for. ..

which of course has nothing to do with the question of if its possible or not.

Look just because Darkfall has been online longer than ESO and just because its more like ES in feature sets then ESO is doesnt mean its not possible.

we are only talking about possiblities here, not if its a wise choice.

SEANMCAD · June 2014

Originally posted by Kicksave321
Originally posted by SEANMCAD
Originally posted by Kicksave321

No it's not common to have a fair discussion with a person who extremely bias and has taken a subject personally. That person will allow their personal feelings obstruct from a fair constructive conversation...that is common knowledge

You are wrong.

'the sun is hot'

my bias toward the sun doesnt have anything to do if the statement above is fact or not. bias doesnt not change truth.

it only makes your job a little harder...are you up for it?

Nope you are wrong it's the personnel part that you have involved yourself in that makes it pointless and non beneficial to discuss ESO or Zenimax. A few points you may want to take into consideration before I leave you to this pointless thread.

1) Taking anything todo with a video game personally is a little weird.

2) bring politics into a video game forum is ignorant and shows your intolerance.

3) Hopefully after reading that you clearly have a motive regarding eso and Zenimax others will follow my lead and ignore your bias, personal feeling towards eso and Zenimax. As you have demonstrated it's clearly impossible to have a discussion with you on those subjects.

look if you disagree then do not engage.

I am telling you that facts are facts no matter ones bias. You seem to think a persons bias can change reality. well it doesnt. sorry you disagree

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