Originally posted by deavyin Every single one of those potions is by definition pay to win since they give you a benefit over someone who doesn't have one that can only be purchased from the shop and people who pay with real world money will always be able to get potions faster than those who use their in game tokens.
an unfair advantage that free players cant get? No because you can get that all in game without spending a cent.
You are re-defining what it means to be P2W and YES it is an unfair advantage. A person who uses money to purchase an XP potion can do so each time they want only limited by their ability to pay money.
A person who wants to use coins is limited by the amount of coins they can get (which is 5 per day).
Not only is there an incentive to use real world money, but a person with more money, and the willingness to pay it, will always have a significant leg up over a person using coins.
Would you change your argument if:
Xp boost was 100%, lasted for 24 hours, cost 5 dollars real world money and 500 in game coins and you only got 1 coin per day when you logged in (500 days of loggin in).
I mean, by your logic, you can purchase it with in game currency so it's clearly not P2W.
Thats not redefining anything, that is what the majority of players consider P2W. XP boost isnt P2W. Getting to max level does win you the game.
Originally posted by deavyin Every single one of those potions is by definition pay to win since they give you a benefit over someone who doesn't have one that can only be purchased from the shop and people who pay with real world money will always be able to get potions faster than those who use their in game tokens.
an unfair advantage that free players cant get? No because you can get that all in game without spending a cent.
It is unfair, if free players can't get it as fast as sub players, with out using RL money.
There would be no issue if the game was just a sub only game. All these complaints would go away.
Talk about moving the goalposts.
First it's unfair because F2P cant get it. Then you are told they can. Now it's unfair because they can't get it as quick?
F2P players SHOULD have a disadvantage of some description, wouldnt you agree?
As I understand it, almost everything in the shop can be re-sold on the in game vendors and purchased for in game gold by F2P players.....
Originally posted by deavyin Every single one of those potions is by definition pay to win since they give you a benefit over someone who doesn't have one that can only be purchased from the shop and people who pay with real world money will always be able to get potions faster than those who use their in game tokens.
an unfair advantage that free players cant get? No because you can get that all in game without spending a cent.
You are re-defining what it means to be P2W and YES it is an unfair advantage. A person who uses money to purchase an XP potion can do so each time they want only limited by their ability to pay money.
A person who wants to use coins is limited by the amount of coins they can get (which is 5 per day).
Not only is there an incentive to use real world money, but a person with more money, and the willingness to pay it, will always have a significant leg up over a person using coins.
Would you change your argument if:
Xp boost was 100%, lasted for 24 hours, cost 5 dollars real world money and 500 in game coins and you only got 1 coin per day when you logged in (500 days of loggin in).
I mean, by your logic, you can purchase it with in game currency so it's clearly not P2W.
Thats not redefining anything, that is what the majority of players consider P2W. XP boost isnt P2W. Getting to max level does win you the game.
So what about the thousands upon thousands of people who do consider xp boosts P2W? I don't but I'm curious how our opinion is any better than theirs. After all, it's their character, if max level is a win for them but not for us, how is the problem solved?
No F2P system exists out there today that isn't P2W to someone, somewhere. I've even had people say Rift is P2W. People are so different, it's one reason why F2P is universally derided by most MMO gamers.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV Have played: You name it If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
P2W-- gives you advances that others can't have.. for example and epic sword that you can only buy from the cashshop..
What they are selling in the cashshop is only timed based items and cosmetics and fluff
Time based items: Lp potions just make the time shorter ingame to adchieve something..
best gear/weopons ingame are all crafted.. which takes a f2p player lots of time compared to a patron player..
The only difference is TIME
yes...exactly...
if you define winnning as building a house, a boat, getting to max lvl, crafting that epic item than a boost will give you a leg up over someone who doens't have the potion = P2W.
Pay to Win is NOT just having an exclusive item. If you bought a max level character (like WoW is planning on doing) is that not pay to win? It's just an xp boost. It's not an exclusive item.
Originally posted by deavyin Every single one of those potions is by definition pay to win since they give you a benefit over someone who doesn't have one that can only be purchased from the shop and people who pay with real world money will always be able to get potions faster than those who use their in game tokens.
an unfair advantage that free players cant get? No because you can get that all in game without spending a cent.
No because you have to build up your gold and if someone sells labor pots on the AH they will not be cheap. Beta has already shown that there is no cap to how much gold a patron will charge on the AH even for the most trivial items. You have to be a patron/subscriber to sell on the AH. Hence P2W. BTW patron also required to make a house or place farms/gardens given to you via quests. So if you dont sub you might as well play another game. If you plant at a public farm or in the wild people will steal your crops or just uproot them for fun. By forcing you to sub to actually be productive and be able to use quest rewards makes the game P2W. Nowhere is the game actually F2P because you always run into a pay wall.
If that is how you want to play. Except you can get anything a paying person has still. Selling on the AH is not a P2W feature. Selling on the AH isnt winning you anything. You can sell stuff to all players still, especially if you are in a guild it is easy and this game is meant to be played with a guild. Lets look at wow, players who use the AH are lesser players, they make less money than a person who spams trade chat. People trade all the time in WoW without having to use the AH.
Any more these terms mean nothing - themepark, sandbox, sandpark, themebox, P2W, F2P, etc. Everything has different meaning to everyone.
In my view, P2W is giving someone an unfair advantage that makes them OP. Like buying epic weapons that can't be obtained through normal means, or even selling very difficult to get items in a cash shop. Those things should be earned/crafted etc. Make someone work for it a little bit at least.
Selling labor points doesn't make someone OP in my mind. Yes you can farm all day if you want, whoopty doo. If that's your deal fine. You don't become better then everyone else in the game by farming all day. I suppose you could craft better items, but you would sell those, etc. It's just not a big deal to me personally. More power to them.
Any more these terms mean nothing - themepark, sandbox, sandpark, themebox, P2W, F2P, etc. Everything has different meaning to everyone.
In my view, P2W is giving someone an unfair advantage that makes them OP. Like buying epic weapons that can't be obtained through normal means, or even selling very difficult to get items in a cash shop. Those things should be earned/crafted etc. Make someone work for it a little bit at least.
Selling labor points doesn't make someone OP in my mind. Yes you can farm all day if you want, whoopty doo. If that's your deal fine. You don't become better then everyone else in the game by farming all day. I suppose you could craft better items, but you would sell those, etc. It's just not a big deal to me personally. More power to them.
Hmm I guess you don't know what kind of LP you have to use to make a ship with cannons to survive the sea.
I think the OP missed the point entirely. It may not be a P2W game in the truest sense but the fact that in order to progress or in fact do anything in game, you need to spend real money. And if you are a very active player you will be spending either a lot of money or a lot of downtime doing nothing.
This game in my opinion is the worst kind of F2P game. They are gouging customers plain and simple. Why not just turn the game into a subscription based game and do away with the vast majority of things that require LP. I mean who thought using these very valuable LP's to open loot bags. That is such a travesty. There are so many other problems with this game that if there are enough players left to support a server 2 months after the game is officially released I will be surprised. I wish Trion had opted to make a real game instead of trying to retool a Korean game for the Western market. IT just doesn't work.
But almost everything on the list is purely cosmetic. Even the boosts are all small beans like 10% for 60 mins.
So as a subscriber tell me, what am I forced to spend real money on in order to do anything?
If I am a F2P player I SHOULD have to spend some real money to achieve the same perks.
This system appears to be more or less like SWTORs cash shop:
a) Subs don't need to pay for any of it unless they want to
b) In SWTOR that system makes a huge amount of money for the game
c) Most store items can be purchased and then sold in the in game vendors for in game gold
I fail to see a problem with that model.
The only gripe can be the LP imo and as another poster said, if this is tweaked then there is genuinely nothing that can be P2W imo....all these QQ posts about unlimited daily LP etc etc turn out to be pure bullshit....surprise surprise.
I explained how it is not. Patrons get ten lp every five minutes plus if they have the loyalty points or money 6k LP every twelve hours. So a person who pays gets a huge advantage in the game as they can potentialy have 13.4k LP a day. A F2P player doesnt regen LP offline and must resort to macros or afking to regen LP when not playing. Players are already doing this during closed beta and the Koreans are ignoring the situation.
That F2P player you describe SHOULD be at a disadvantage versus a pying customer, nothing wrong with that.
If you are talking about subs having an advantage over subs based on real world wealth then fine, tweak it's 12 hour cool down per account. However with online regen, offline regen, 25% of cap regen from resting at a tavern etc I don't see subs as really needing to buy LP pots ever....and if they do, if they can afford it, so be it....it IS a sandbox style of gameplay after all.
Not everything HAS to be equal.
So, you are saying that you are ok with the game having pay to win elements?
That's fine...just admit it though and don't say they game isn't P2W when it clearly is.
No thats you twisting my words.
My point is not all things will ever be equal and thats ok. If someone wants to buy a top up LP pot I have no problem with it because it doesn't win them anything.
F2P players SHOULD get less LP freedom than paying customers and therefore they SHOULD have to pay extra if they want to balance the scales.
Any more these terms mean nothing - themepark, sandbox, sandpark, themebox, P2W, F2P, etc. Everything has different meaning to everyone.
In my view, P2W is giving someone an unfair advantage that makes them OP. Like buying epic weapons that can't be obtained through normal means, or even selling very difficult to get items in a cash shop. Those things should be earned/crafted etc. Make someone work for it a little bit at least.
Selling labor points doesn't make someone OP in my mind. Yes you can farm all day if you want, whoopty doo. If that's your deal fine. You don't become better then everyone else in the game by farming all day. I suppose you could craft better items, but you would sell those, etc. It's just not a big deal to me personally. More power to them.
And I disagree when the deck is stacked so heavily against a F2P player.
Keep in mind, a F2P player CANNOT build house and cannot use the AH and other aspects of the game.
I'm pretty sure telling people the game is F2P and then cutting off complete aspects of the game that you can NEVER access without paying is actually P2W.
I think the OP missed the point entirely. It may not be a P2W game in the truest sense but the fact that in order to progress or in fact do anything in game, you need to spend real money. And if you are a very active player you will be spending either a lot of money or a lot of downtime doing nothing.
This game in my opinion is the worst kind of F2P game. They are gouging customers plain and simple. Why not just turn the game into a subscription based game and do away with the vast majority of things that require LP. I mean who thought using these very valuable LP's to open loot bags. That is such a travesty. There are so many other problems with this game that if there are enough players left to support a server 2 months after the game is officially released I will be surprised. I wish Trion had opted to make a real game instead of trying to retool a Korean game for the Western market. IT just doesn't work.
Originally posted by deavyin Every single one of those potions is by definition pay to win since they give you a benefit over someone who doesn't have one that can only be purchased from the shop and people who pay with real world money will always be able to get potions faster than those who use their in game tokens.
an unfair advantage that free players cant get? No because you can get that all in game without spending a cent.
No because you have to build up your gold and if someone sells labor pots on the AH they will not be cheap. Beta has already shown that there is no cap to how much gold a patron will charge on the AH even for the most trivial items. You have to be a patron/subscriber to sell on the AH. Hence P2W. BTW patron also required to make a house or place farms/gardens given to you via quests. So if you dont sub you might as well play another game. If you plant at a public farm or in the wild people will steal your crops or just uproot them for fun. By forcing you to sub to actually be productive and be able to use quest rewards makes the game P2W. Nowhere is the game actually F2P because you always run into a pay wall.
So are you actually saying you think a F2P game SHOULD give non subscribers everything that the paying customers get, and if it doesnt the game is P2W?
I think the OP missed the point entirely. It may not be a P2W game in the truest sense but the fact that in order to progress or in fact do anything in game, you need to spend real money. And if you are a very active player you will be spending either a lot of money or a lot of downtime doing nothing.
This game in my opinion is the worst kind of F2P game. They are gouging customers plain and simple. Why not just turn the game into a subscription based game and do away with the vast majority of things that require LP. I mean who thought using these very valuable LP's to open loot bags. That is such a travesty. There are so many other problems with this game that if there are enough players left to support a server 2 months after the game is officially released I will be surprised. I wish Trion had opted to make a real game instead of trying to retool a Korean game for the Western market. IT just doesn't work.
i argee with this guy.. he sums it up nicely..
its defo a milking machine but defo NOT P2W
Oh I agree with that too, it's definitely a milking machine, same as SWTORs version. But you know what, it's definitely not P2W imo. The SWTOR equivalent makes tonnes of cash for the game so a non P2W cash shop that makes a huge revenue for the game someone likes and plays can be a good thing.
I think the OP missed the point entirely. It may not be a P2W game in the truest sense but the fact that in order to progress or in fact do anything in game, you need to spend real money. And if you are a very active player you will be spending either a lot of money or a lot of downtime doing nothing.
This game in my opinion is the worst kind of F2P game. They are gouging customers plain and simple. Why not just turn the game into a subscription based game and do away with the vast majority of things that require LP. I mean who thought using these very valuable LP's to open loot bags. That is such a travesty. There are so many other problems with this game that if there are enough players left to support a server 2 months after the game is officially released I will be surprised. I wish Trion had opted to make a real game instead of trying to retool a Korean game for the Western market. IT just doesn't work.
But almost everything on the list is purely cosmetic. Even the boosts are all small beans like 10% for 60 mins.
So as a subscriber tell me, what am I forced to spend real money on in order to do anything?
If I am a F2P player I SHOULD have to spend some real money to achieve the same perks.
This system appears to be more or less like SWTORs cash shop:
a) Subs don't need to pay for any of it unless they want to
b) In SWTOR that system makes a huge amount of money for the game
c) Most store items can be purchased and then sold in the in game vendors for in game gold
I fail to see a problem with that model.
The only gripe can be the LP imo and as another poster said, if this is tweaked then there is genuinely nothing that can be P2W imo....all these QQ posts about unlimited daily LP etc etc turn out to be pure bullshit....surprise surprise.
I explained how it is not. Patrons get ten lp every five minutes plus if they have the loyalty points or money 6k LP every twelve hours. So a person who pays gets a huge advantage in the game as they can potentialy have 13.4k LP a day. A F2P player doesnt regen LP offline and must resort to macros or afking to regen LP when not playing. Players are already doing this during closed beta and the Koreans are ignoring the situation.
That F2P player you describe SHOULD be at a disadvantage versus a pying customer, nothing wrong with that.
If you are talking about subs having an advantage over subs based on real world wealth then fine, tweak it's 12 hour cool down per account. However with online regen, offline regen, 25% of cap regen from resting at a tavern etc I don't see subs as really needing to buy LP pots ever....and if they do, if they can afford it, so be it....it IS a sandbox style of gameplay after all.
Not everything HAS to be equal.
So, you are saying that you are ok with the game having pay to win elements?
That's fine...just admit it though and don't say they game isn't P2W when it clearly is.
No thats you twisting my words.
My point is not all things will ever be equal and thats ok. If someone wants to buy a top up LP pot I have no problem with it because it doesn't win them anything.
F2P players SHOULD get less LP freedom than paying customers and therefore they SHOULD have to pay extra if they want to balance the scales.
Again, we are arguing different subjective meanings for P2W. I believe that P2W is anything that gives an advantage to a paying customer over a non-paying customer based on their ability to pay alone.
A non paying customer will never be able to build up in game coins fast enough to purchase boosts at the rate a paying customer can. A paying customer will always be able to build, level, etc faster than a non-paying customer.
Whether you find it OK or not, if your definition is to build that item faster or down that raid boss first paying to bypass the grind = winning.
That's my definition of P2W and it's the incentive to purchase an advantage with real world money over those who don't have the money to do so so that you can complete your chosen task faster. I strongly dislike it as a business practice because I view it to be anti-consumer and greedy.
Originally posted by deavyin Every single one of those potions is by definition pay to win since they give you a benefit over someone who doesn't have one that can only be purchased from the shop and people who pay with real world money will always be able to get potions faster than those who use their in game tokens.
an unfair advantage that free players cant get? No because you can get that all in game without spending a cent.
No because you have to build up your gold and if someone sells labor pots on the AH they will not be cheap. Beta has already shown that there is no cap to how much gold a patron will charge on the AH even for the most trivial items. You have to be a patron/subscriber to sell on the AH. Hence P2W. BTW patron also required to make a house or place farms/gardens given to you via quests. So if you dont sub you might as well play another game. If you plant at a public farm or in the wild people will steal your crops or just uproot them for fun. By forcing you to sub to actually be productive and be able to use quest rewards makes the game P2W. Nowhere is the game actually F2P because you always run into a pay wall.
So are you actually saying you think a F2P game SHOULD give non subscribers everything that the paying customers get, and if it doesnt the game is P2W?
No but there should be a balance. Saying a game if F2P but requiring a subscription to be able to do anything actually makes the game a trial and not F2P.
Originally posted by deavyin Every single one of those potions is by definition pay to win since they give you a benefit over someone who doesn't have one that can only be purchased from the shop and people who pay with real world money will always be able to get potions faster than those who use their in game tokens.
an unfair advantage that free players cant get? No because you can get that all in game without spending a cent.
No because you have to build up your gold and if someone sells labor pots on the AH they will not be cheap. Beta has already shown that there is no cap to how much gold a patron will charge on the AH even for the most trivial items. You have to be a patron/subscriber to sell on the AH. Hence P2W. BTW patron also required to make a house or place farms/gardens given to you via quests. So if you dont sub you might as well play another game. If you plant at a public farm or in the wild people will steal your crops or just uproot them for fun. By forcing you to sub to actually be productive and be able to use quest rewards makes the game P2W. Nowhere is the game actually F2P because you always run into a pay wall.
So are you actually saying you think a F2P game SHOULD give non subscribers everything that the paying customers get, and if it doesnt the game is P2W?
No but there should be a balance. Saying a game if F2P but requiring a subscription to be able to do anything actually makes the game a trial and not F2P.
exactly, if the argument is "you can do everything EVENTUALLY F2P that costs money" how does one justify the fact that F2P players cannot have houses or use the AH?
I think the OP missed the point entirely. It may not be a P2W game in the truest sense but the fact that in order to progress or in fact do anything in game, you need to spend real money. And if you are a very active player you will be spending either a lot of money or a lot of downtime doing nothing.
This game in my opinion is the worst kind of F2P game. They are gouging customers plain and simple. Why not just turn the game into a subscription based game and do away with the vast majority of things that require LP. I mean who thought using these very valuable LP's to open loot bags. That is such a travesty. There are so many other problems with this game that if there are enough players left to support a server 2 months after the game is officially released I will be surprised. I wish Trion had opted to make a real game instead of trying to retool a Korean game for the Western market. IT just doesn't work.
But almost everything on the list is purely cosmetic. Even the boosts are all small beans like 10% for 60 mins.
So as a subscriber tell me, what am I forced to spend real money on in order to do anything?
If I am a F2P player I SHOULD have to spend some real money to achieve the same perks.
This system appears to be more or less like SWTORs cash shop:
a) Subs don't need to pay for any of it unless they want to
b) In SWTOR that system makes a huge amount of money for the game
c) Most store items can be purchased and then sold in the in game vendors for in game gold
I fail to see a problem with that model.
The only gripe can be the LP imo and as another poster said, if this is tweaked then there is genuinely nothing that can be P2W imo....all these QQ posts about unlimited daily LP etc etc turn out to be pure bullshit....surprise surprise.
I explained how it is not. Patrons get ten lp every five minutes plus if they have the loyalty points or money 6k LP every twelve hours. So a person who pays gets a huge advantage in the game as they can potentialy have 13.4k LP a day. A F2P player doesnt regen LP offline and must resort to macros or afking to regen LP when not playing. Players are already doing this during closed beta and the Koreans are ignoring the situation.
That F2P player you describe SHOULD be at a disadvantage versus a pying customer, nothing wrong with that.
If you are talking about subs having an advantage over subs based on real world wealth then fine, tweak it's 12 hour cool down per account. However with online regen, offline regen, 25% of cap regen from resting at a tavern etc I don't see subs as really needing to buy LP pots ever....and if they do, if they can afford it, so be it....it IS a sandbox style of gameplay after all.
Not everything HAS to be equal.
So, you are saying that you are ok with the game having pay to win elements?
That's fine...just admit it though and don't say they game isn't P2W when it clearly is.
No thats you twisting my words.
My point is not all things will ever be equal and thats ok. If someone wants to buy a top up LP pot I have no problem with it because it doesn't win them anything.
F2P players SHOULD get less LP freedom than paying customers and therefore they SHOULD have to pay extra if they want to balance the scales.
Again, we are arguing different subjective meanings for P2W. I believe that P2W is anything that gives an advantage to a paying customer over a non-paying customer based on their ability to pay alone.
A non paying customer will never be able to build up in game coins fast enough to purchase boosts at the rate a paying customer can. A paying customer will always be able to build, level, etc faster than a non-paying customer.
Whether you find it OK or not, if your definition is to build that item faster or down that raid boss first paying to bypass the grind = winning.
That's my definition of P2W and it's the incentive to purchase an advantage with real world money over those who don't have the money to do so so that you can complete your chosen task faster. I strongly dislike it as a business practice because I view it to be anti-consumer and greedy.
This entire argument is subjective.
Yes it is, it's all down to personal opinion I guess.
To me, what you are describing, and this AA cash shop is P2Convenience at best.
If I can obtain a weapon in game and then in the cash shop I can buy the same weapon but with higher stats than the one available in game....THAT is P2W. Cheesy example I know, but you get the idea.
Time based items: Lp potions just make the time shorter ingame to adchieve something..
best gear/weopons ingame are all crafted.. which takes a f2p player lots of time compared to a patron player..
The only difference is TIME
yes...exactly...
if you define winnning as building a house, a boat, getting to max lvl, crafting that epic item than a boost will give you a leg up over someone who doens't have the potion = P2W.
This^ (shortened it a bit)
Take a sub/patron player vs a sub/patron + shop.
The normal player has 2880 LP max a day. The shop user will have 4880 (if potion cd is for the whole account = 2max/day).
Now assume a sword of uberness which both can craft takes 10k LP. the shop player will have it in a bit more than 2 days while the non shop user will need 3-4 days.
Now, for the time between them the shop user basicly bought the sword of uberness with real money which imho makes it pay to win.
Now think people idling 3-4 sub accounts (cheaper then buying LP pots for the whole month) they will get "items of uberness" even faster. And if you add multiple accounts +potions then well, you get the point.
I guess higher level items are better then lower quality/level ones. And if I heard correct then this games endgame is heavy on items. So the more money you put in the game the better your char will be.
For me in an item heavy system "spending more money = better items" is the definition of p2w.
If the game were termed to have a free trial & not be F2P, these P2W conversations would not exist.
Symantecs... Thread upon thread & post upon post over the definition of a fictional term.
There is no such thing as F2P...
You are all just pissing into the wind.
I agree that it would change the conversation, but i personally do not think that P2W would be off the table since my main gripe is with the ability to purchase boosts beyond what a subscriber pays.
My main issue with F2P/Free Trial in this game was that they cut off features and people are trying to say it's not P2W.
When it comes to the subscription model it's that a person who subscribes and supports the game with a monthly recurring subscription still is incentivized to pay more in order to maximize efficiency and that seems anti-consumer to me. It's just another way to wring a little more out of your supporters in a way that is entirely unnecessary.
Time based items: Lp potions just make the time shorter ingame to adchieve something..
best gear/weopons ingame are all crafted.. which takes a f2p player lots of time compared to a patron player..
The only difference is TIME
yes...exactly...
if you define winnning as building a house, a boat, getting to max lvl, crafting that epic item than a boost will give you a leg up over someone who doens't have the potion = P2W.
This^ (shortened it a bit)
Take a sub/patron player vs a sub/patron + shop.
The normal player has 2880 LP max a day. The shop user will have 4880 (if potion cd is for the whole account = 2max/day).
Now assume a sword of uberness which both can craft takes 10k LP. the shop player will have it in a bit more than 2 days while the non shop user will need 3-4 days.
Now, for the time between them the shop user basicly bought the sword of uberness with real money which imho makes it pay to win.
Now think people idling 3-4 sub accounts (cheaper then buying LP pots for the whole month) they will get "items of uberness" even faster. And if you add multiple accounts +potions then well, you get the point.
I guess higher level items are better then lower quality/level ones. And if I heard correct then this games endgame is heavy on items. So the more money you put in the game the better your char will be.
For me in an item heavy system "spending more money = better items" is the definition of p2w.
But by your own example "spending more money" does not equal "better items". At worst "spending more money" equals "the same items a day or two quicker".....what exaxtly have "won"
Both players have the same item. One player has it couple of days earlier....that in and of itself represents no tangible "win" that I can see.
Time based items: Lp potions just make the time shorter ingame to adchieve something..
best gear/weopons ingame are all crafted.. which takes a f2p player lots of time compared to a patron player..
The only difference is TIME
yes...exactly...
if you define winnning as building a house, a boat, getting to max lvl, crafting that epic item than a boost will give you a leg up over someone who doens't have the potion = P2W.
This^ (shortened it a bit)
Take a sub/patron player vs a sub/patron + shop.
The normal player has 2880 LP max a day. The shop user will have 4880 (if potion cd is for the whole account = 2max/day).
Now assume a sword of uberness which both can craft takes 10k LP. the shop player will have it in a bit more than 2 days while the non shop user will need 3-4 days.
Now, for the time between them the shop user basicly bought the sword of uberness with real money which imho makes it pay to win.
Now think people idling 3-4 sub accounts (cheaper then buying LP pots for the whole month) they will get "items of uberness" even faster. And if you add multiple accounts +potions then well, you get the point.
I guess higher level items are better then lower quality/level ones. And if I heard correct then this games endgame is heavy on items. So the more money you put in the game the better your char will be.
For me in an item heavy system "spending more money = better items" is the definition of p2w.
Your math is a little off. You can buy/use the LP pots per character per account. 6 characters on your account equals 6k LP every 12 hrs and 12k+ the regenerated LP every 24hrs. If your buying pots. Youll have that item that requires 10k LP in a day. Hence P2W.
If the game were termed to have a free trial & not be F2P, these P2W conversations would not exist.
Symantecs... Thread upon thread & post upon post over the definition of a fictional term.
There is no such thing as F2P...
You are all just pissing into the wind.
I agree that it would change the conversation, but i personally do not think that P2W would be off the table since my main gripe is with the ability to purchase boosts beyond what a subscriber pays.
My main issue with F2P/Free Trial in this game was that they cut off features and people are trying to say it's not P2W.
When it comes to the subscription model it's that a person who subscribes and supports the game with a monthly recurring subscription still is incentivized to pay more in order to maximize efficiency and that seems anti-consumer to me. It's just another way to wring a little more out of your supporters in a way that is entirely unnecessary.
I can recognize your point of view & you are correct. Of course the paid enhancement is not only extremely minute & usless for the majority of players, it is also financially unsound to get ahead this way as you would gain more & pay less with a second patron account.
Of course this could still change. Unlikely but possible. Either way, if this is the wedge issue of a "FTP" game, I think it's doing okay.
I think the OP missed the point entirely. It may not be a P2W game in the truest sense but the fact that in order to progress or in fact do anything in game, you need to spend real money. And if you are a very active player you will be spending either a lot of money or a lot of downtime doing nothing.
This game in my opinion is the worst kind of F2P game. They are gouging customers plain and simple. Why not just turn the game into a subscription based game and do away with the vast majority of things that require LP. I mean who thought using these very valuable LP's to open loot bags. That is such a travesty. There are so many other problems with this game that if there are enough players left to support a server 2 months after the game is officially released I will be surprised. I wish Trion had opted to make a real game instead of trying to retool a Korean game for the Western market. IT just doesn't work.
But almost everything on the list is purely cosmetic. Even the boosts are all small beans like 10% for 60 mins.
So as a subscriber tell me, what am I forced to spend real money on in order to do anything?
If I am a F2P player I SHOULD have to spend some real money to achieve the same perks.
This system appears to be more or less like SWTORs cash shop:
a) Subs don't need to pay for any of it unless they want to
b) In SWTOR that system makes a huge amount of money for the game
c) Most store items can be purchased and then sold in the in game vendors for in game gold
I fail to see a problem with that model.
The only gripe can be the LP imo and as another poster said, if this is tweaked then there is genuinely nothing that can be P2W imo....all these QQ posts about unlimited daily LP etc etc turn out to be pure bullshit....surprise surprise.
I explained how it is not. Patrons get ten lp every five minutes plus if they have the loyalty points or money 6k LP every twelve hours. So a person who pays gets a huge advantage in the game as they can potentialy have 13.4k LP a day. A F2P player doesnt regen LP offline and must resort to macros or afking to regen LP when not playing. Players are already doing this during closed beta and the Koreans are ignoring the situation.
That F2P player you describe SHOULD be at a disadvantage versus a pying customer, nothing wrong with that.
If you are talking about subs having an advantage over subs based on real world wealth then fine, tweak it's 12 hour cool down per account. However with online regen, offline regen, 25% of cap regen from resting at a tavern etc I don't see subs as really needing to buy LP pots ever....and if they do, if they can afford it, so be it....it IS a sandbox style of gameplay after all.
Not everything HAS to be equal.
So, you are saying that you are ok with the game having pay to win elements?
That's fine...just admit it though and don't say they game isn't P2W when it clearly is.
No thats you twisting my words.
My point is not all things will ever be equal and thats ok. If someone wants to buy a top up LP pot I have no problem with it because it doesn't win them anything.
F2P players SHOULD get less LP freedom than paying customers and therefore they SHOULD have to pay extra if they want to balance the scales.
Again, we are arguing different subjective meanings for P2W. I believe that P2W is anything that gives an advantage to a paying customer over a non-paying customer based on their ability to pay alone.
A non paying customer will never be able to build up in game coins fast enough to purchase boosts at the rate a paying customer can. A paying customer will always be able to build, level, etc faster than a non-paying customer.
Whether you find it OK or not, if your definition is to build that item faster or down that raid boss first paying to bypass the grind = winning.
That's my definition of P2W and it's the incentive to purchase an advantage with real world money over those who don't have the money to do so so that you can complete your chosen task faster. I strongly dislike it as a business practice because I view it to be anti-consumer and greedy.
This entire argument is subjective.
So, based on your definition, SWTOR is also P2W because if I subscribe to the game then I get distinct advantages over those who are playing for free. The whole purpose of a definition is to make things NOT subjective. I'm having a real difficult time with your definition because it simply boils down to every single game being P2W. If you can name me some games that are F2P that are NOT P2W it might give some clarity.
If the game were termed to have a free trial & not be F2P, these P2W conversations would not exist.
Symantecs... Thread upon thread & post upon post over the definition of a fictional term.
There is no such thing as F2P...
You are all just pissing into the wind.
I agree that it would change the conversation, but i personally do not think that P2W would be off the table since my main gripe is with the ability to purchase boosts beyond what a subscriber pays.
My main issue with F2P/Free Trial in this game was that they cut off features and people are trying to say it's not P2W.
When it comes to the subscription model it's that a person who subscribes and supports the game with a monthly recurring subscription still is incentivized to pay more in order to maximize efficiency and that seems anti-consumer to me. It's just another way to wring a little more out of your supporters in a way that is entirely unnecessary.
I can recognize your point of view & you are correct. Of course the paid enhancement is not only extremely minute & usless for the majority of players, it is also financially unsound to get ahead this way as you would gain more & pay less with a second patron account.
Of course this could still change. Unlikely but possible. Either way, if this is the wedge issue of a "FTP" game, I think it's doing okay.
Full disclosure: I detest F2P.
Your wrong. Everything in the game uses labor points. Identify gear, open looted items, crafting , harvesting, reporting botters, open a portal It all costs LP. There is no way around that fact and LP drains fast. Thats what makes the LP Pots P2W.
Comments
Thats not redefining anything, that is what the majority of players consider P2W. XP boost isnt P2W. Getting to max level does win you the game.
Talk about moving the goalposts.
First it's unfair because F2P cant get it. Then you are told they can. Now it's unfair because they can't get it as quick?
F2P players SHOULD have a disadvantage of some description, wouldnt you agree?
As I understand it, almost everything in the shop can be re-sold on the in game vendors and purchased for in game gold by F2P players.....
Read all of my posts in this thread then add it all together and if you cant see it your blind.
So what about the thousands upon thousands of people who do consider xp boosts P2W? I don't but I'm curious how our opinion is any better than theirs. After all, it's their character, if max level is a win for them but not for us, how is the problem solved?
No F2P system exists out there today that isn't P2W to someone, somewhere. I've even had people say Rift is P2W. People are so different, it's one reason why F2P is universally derided by most MMO gamers.
Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.
yes...exactly...
if you define winnning as building a house, a boat, getting to max lvl, crafting that epic item than a boost will give you a leg up over someone who doens't have the potion = P2W.
Pay to Win is NOT just having an exclusive item. If you bought a max level character (like WoW is planning on doing) is that not pay to win? It's just an xp boost. It's not an exclusive item.
If that is how you want to play. Except you can get anything a paying person has still. Selling on the AH is not a P2W feature. Selling on the AH isnt winning you anything. You can sell stuff to all players still, especially if you are in a guild it is easy and this game is meant to be played with a guild. Lets look at wow, players who use the AH are lesser players, they make less money than a person who spams trade chat. People trade all the time in WoW without having to use the AH.
Any more these terms mean nothing - themepark, sandbox, sandpark, themebox, P2W, F2P, etc. Everything has different meaning to everyone.
In my view, P2W is giving someone an unfair advantage that makes them OP. Like buying epic weapons that can't be obtained through normal means, or even selling very difficult to get items in a cash shop. Those things should be earned/crafted etc. Make someone work for it a little bit at least.
Selling labor points doesn't make someone OP in my mind. Yes you can farm all day if you want, whoopty doo. If that's your deal fine. You don't become better then everyone else in the game by farming all day. I suppose you could craft better items, but you would sell those, etc. It's just not a big deal to me personally. More power to them.
Hmm I guess you don't know what kind of LP you have to use to make a ship with cannons to survive the sea.
No thats you twisting my words.
My point is not all things will ever be equal and thats ok. If someone wants to buy a top up LP pot I have no problem with it because it doesn't win them anything.
F2P players SHOULD get less LP freedom than paying customers and therefore they SHOULD have to pay extra if they want to balance the scales.
And I disagree when the deck is stacked so heavily against a F2P player.
Keep in mind, a F2P player CANNOT build house and cannot use the AH and other aspects of the game.
I'm pretty sure telling people the game is F2P and then cutting off complete aspects of the game that you can NEVER access without paying is actually P2W.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
i argee with this guy.. he sums it up nicely..
its defo a milking machine but defo NOT P2W
So are you actually saying you think a F2P game SHOULD give non subscribers everything that the paying customers get, and if it doesnt the game is P2W?
Oh I agree with that too, it's definitely a milking machine, same as SWTORs version. But you know what, it's definitely not P2W imo. The SWTOR equivalent makes tonnes of cash for the game so a non P2W cash shop that makes a huge revenue for the game someone likes and plays can be a good thing.
Again, we are arguing different subjective meanings for P2W. I believe that P2W is anything that gives an advantage to a paying customer over a non-paying customer based on their ability to pay alone.
A non paying customer will never be able to build up in game coins fast enough to purchase boosts at the rate a paying customer can. A paying customer will always be able to build, level, etc faster than a non-paying customer.
Whether you find it OK or not, if your definition is to build that item faster or down that raid boss first paying to bypass the grind = winning.
That's my definition of P2W and it's the incentive to purchase an advantage with real world money over those who don't have the money to do so so that you can complete your chosen task faster. I strongly dislike it as a business practice because I view it to be anti-consumer and greedy.
This entire argument is subjective.
No but there should be a balance. Saying a game if F2P but requiring a subscription to be able to do anything actually makes the game a trial and not F2P.
If the game were termed to have a free trial & not be F2P, these P2W conversations would not exist.
Symantecs... Thread upon thread & post upon post over the definition of a fictional term.
There is no such thing as F2P...
You are all just pissing into the wind.
exactly, if the argument is "you can do everything EVENTUALLY F2P that costs money" how does one justify the fact that F2P players cannot have houses or use the AH?
Yes it is, it's all down to personal opinion I guess.
To me, what you are describing, and this AA cash shop is P2Convenience at best.
If I can obtain a weapon in game and then in the cash shop I can buy the same weapon but with higher stats than the one available in game....THAT is P2W. Cheesy example I know, but you get the idea.
This^ (shortened it a bit)
Take a sub/patron player vs a sub/patron + shop.
The normal player has 2880 LP max a day. The shop user will have 4880 (if potion cd is for the whole account = 2max/day).
Now assume a sword of uberness which both can craft takes 10k LP. the shop player will have it in a bit more than 2 days while the non shop user will need 3-4 days.
Now, for the time between them the shop user basicly bought the sword of uberness with real money which imho makes it pay to win.
Now think people idling 3-4 sub accounts (cheaper then buying LP pots for the whole month) they will get "items of uberness" even faster. And if you add multiple accounts +potions then well, you get the point.
I guess higher level items are better then lower quality/level ones. And if I heard correct then this games endgame is heavy on items. So the more money you put in the game the better your char will be.
For me in an item heavy system "spending more money = better items" is the definition of p2w.
I agree that it would change the conversation, but i personally do not think that P2W would be off the table since my main gripe is with the ability to purchase boosts beyond what a subscriber pays.
My main issue with F2P/Free Trial in this game was that they cut off features and people are trying to say it's not P2W.
When it comes to the subscription model it's that a person who subscribes and supports the game with a monthly recurring subscription still is incentivized to pay more in order to maximize efficiency and that seems anti-consumer to me. It's just another way to wring a little more out of your supporters in a way that is entirely unnecessary.
But by your own example "spending more money" does not equal "better items". At worst "spending more money" equals "the same items a day or two quicker".....what exaxtly have "won"
Both players have the same item. One player has it couple of days earlier....that in and of itself represents no tangible "win" that I can see.
Your math is a little off. You can buy/use the LP pots per character per account. 6 characters on your account equals 6k LP every 12 hrs and 12k+ the regenerated LP every 24hrs. If your buying pots. Youll have that item that requires 10k LP in a day. Hence P2W.
I can recognize your point of view & you are correct. Of course the paid enhancement is not only extremely minute & usless for the majority of players, it is also financially unsound to get ahead this way as you would gain more & pay less with a second patron account.
Of course this could still change. Unlikely but possible. Either way, if this is the wedge issue of a "FTP" game, I think it's doing okay.
Full disclosure: I detest F2P.
So, based on your definition, SWTOR is also P2W because if I subscribe to the game then I get distinct advantages over those who are playing for free. The whole purpose of a definition is to make things NOT subjective. I'm having a real difficult time with your definition because it simply boils down to every single game being P2W. If you can name me some games that are F2P that are NOT P2W it might give some clarity.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Your wrong. Everything in the game uses labor points. Identify gear, open looted items, crafting , harvesting, reporting botters, open a portal It all costs LP. There is no way around that fact and LP drains fast. Thats what makes the LP Pots P2W.