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Is this P2W or not?
Here's the deal for anyone tuning in late: AA has a system (think of it as "stamina" for non-combat related tasks) that replenishes a set amount over a set time and is required for most non-combat actions these are called Labor Points (LP for short). This limits you from performing certain actions a certain number of times since each action costs LP and you can easily run out, requiring you to put some thought into what it is you want to be doing at any given point in time.
The gripe with the LP system is that it basically drains faster then it replenishes. If you are a free player, it replenishes at about half the rate of a paid account and only fills about half the amount. Anything requiring LP becomes a point of contention and requires some planning ahead. There is also a cash-shop potion that replenishes some of this empty LP... HOWEVER that potion is limited to once every 12 hours.
Now, I'll admit, requiring LP for every mundane action seems a bit excessive; there are loot bags you can't loot, crops you can't harvest/grow, etc. that should take little effort considering that herd of wild bears you just slaughtered. If there's an overhaul needed, this would be where it is.
Saying this game is Pay to Win, however, crosses the line... and it's a line I'm particularly annoyed with.
For starters, the potion available for real money can only be used twice a day basically. This is far from a huge bonus or advantage that people think it is and doesn't begin to compare to some of the other games that have real advantages to people forking over real money in micro-transactions that milk customers for all they're worth.
This game is also AAA quality in its gameplay and content, also released by a major publisher. This isn't somebody's basement, garage, indie project. Games like this used to be sold on shelves for $50 price tags and nobody ever complained. In addition to that, they gladly forked over $15 a month afterwards to keep playing.
AA offers the exact same thing: a $49.99 package that gives you a couple in-game items, ability to fully use the land and housing and the LP increase in addition to a 4 day head start. What's the big deal with this? Games have been designed and released like this for over a decade and people never complained about "Pay to Win".
The "free" aspect of this game play is not a "Free Game". It's a trial and sample of the game. You pay a normal fee like any other game and you get a normal game... like any other game. This is not "pay to win" by any standards.
The difference between pay to win and pay to play is simple; the former is a simple game designed to milk as much money as it can out of you in a series of micro-transactions - IE Buy this for $2.99 and gain a bonus for a week. Pay to Play, on the other hand, is a fully fleshed out game that requires a fee to access. Guess which one AA is and which one it most definitely isn't.
The aforementioned potion can be thought of as simply a "discounted" fee. Instead of paying retail and then a sub fee, you buy that potion as needed and operate in a sub-subscription capacity.
I'm not saying AA is a perfect game, but if you want to criticize it, don't criticize it for being something it isn't. There are plenty of games you can accuse of being Pay to Win, but this isn't one of them. This game is designed as a full fledged game and if you don't want to pay for a full game, then that's your choice. Because they've been gracious enough to offer a free trial of it, doesn't entitle you to play it without restriction.
Comments
I've never seen a game that you can sub for that penalizes you for almost every action you make only to sell relief from this in their cash shop.
That's P2W...there is no mystery here...name another sub game that does that?
while i don't see this game as PTW, i would like to know what you think you are "winning"
this game - in my opinion - is a real MMORPG - a game to play, not a game to rush to the top level (and i do understand that is what newer MMOers have been taught by a lot of the more recent online games)
is that what the problem is?
someone else gets to level 50 (or whatever) before you do? someone probably will but that doesn't make this game a PTW
again, how do you "win"?
World of Warcraft, Wildstar, etc,etc,etc. What because people do not see the inherent timesinks (unless you claim dungeons/raids always drop every item in their loot tables every time) it does not mean I do not.
Ask 2 players what p2w means and you get three oppinions. I don't really care much about that.
But from all I have read this labor point system sounds like a very bad design decision. So you need labor points for lots of things, crafting , gathering, even to open quest rewards etc. . They are limited and replenish over time, even as a pratron, though faster. So you have to plan your playtime/playstyle around some labor points ? Doesn't really sound like fun to me.
Btw their homepage says it's a F2P game with an optional subscrption. There is nothing written about a "free trial". I have seen better F2P designs than those of AA though.
AA might have some nice features but it looks like they really are shooting themselves into their knee with those LP. Not sure it will work on the western market.
Perhaps the "free to play" option should be relabeled a trial version instead to stem the tide of QQ. It is a different system and from my own experience in the beta I can see where western players could be put off by it.
At the very least, Trion needs to sell the system a bit more so it makes sense in context. Tutorials would also be helpful that emphasize the need to choose how to spend LP. I was pleasantly surprised to see that my Rift sub granted Patron status in the AA beta for LP regen, but it wasn't enough to grant access to all the other features like farming and housing.
I'm not sold yet on AA. My friends are though, so I'm keeping an eye on it.
AA is not pay to win is just that Trion decided to win the Mother Theresa Award by giving away a game made by a goldselling/goldfarming Korean company.
So yes AA is free for all...
"mmorpg.com forum admins are all TROLLS and losers in real life"
My opinion
The problem is this game is supposed to be F2P but if you spend lots of money - Founders pack, optional sub and CS - you can function like a normal player.
I was trying to do the lvl 20 crafting quest but I had to have 600 LP in order to do it. I had 10 only. I couldn't ID anything as that depleted LP, I couldn't gather as that takes LP - basically it was sit online until the LP charges up (like 10 hours) - buy the LP pot from the CS - or spend the money to get the Founders Pack. I just logged off as all of that is a cash grab to the extreme and to me P2W also.
LOL...Im talking about LP. I never had to sit around and wait to do something in game because of a lack of an arbitrary stat.
It takes LP to use the bathroom in AA...the only thing you can do without LP is ride your mount and kill the very mindless mobs running around....other than that, you are screwed.
WoW does not have such system, neither does Wildstar or any other game.
I played the recent ArcheAge beta and purchased the patron status that gives among other things the labor point bonus. There is only one thing to me regarding this game that justifies it's monetization model -- real, open world, non-instanced, takes-up -space-in-the-game-world, stuff like farms and housing. In-game space for these items is finite. This is the essential reason for the monetization model of the game. There is competition among players to get and keep the best spots for a farm for example. Or for that matter, get a spot at all.
Without the game's labor point system, 899,344,331,988,333,522,001 peeps would create accounts and after game launch, .00000000001% of these peeps would get a house/farm spot, all the available land would go poof, and the game would be unplayable for anyone else. If a player manages to get a spot for a house for example, the game requires the player to keep playing the game to periodically pay taxes or your house will go poof. Without the labor point system it would be a piece of cake to play a little and keep your spot in the game world forever. Obtaining, maintaining, and retaining one's own spot in the ArcheAge game world is one of the game's primary mechanics.
A game must be monetized somehow. For me, I wish ArcheAge was just a sub game. But if it's going to have a FTP element to it, the labor point system seems to be the best compromise the game's devs could come up with if the game is going to have limited occupied player spaces in the game. I am ok with it.
Don't know about anyone else, but as a FTP beta tester I couldn't own land.
I digress though, why use LP then? Why not some other form of control? If you want subs, then make FTP restricted by not allowing FTP'ers to do certain things (which they did, right?). For subs, there should be no such restrictions whether through LP or any other method. People pay to enjoy the game and everything in it....not to have it rationed to them by means of LP.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There could be a couple of reasons for LP. To preface, I haven't played the beta, but I fully intend to join and probably sub when the game goes live. First could be, as you said, to incentivize subbing. The second, which is incredibly important in an open-world game that wants a decent economy (without insane inflation or prices for player-made goods which are too low to be an incentive to players) is the limit the ability of botters. With LP, you somewhat limit the ability of botters and gold farmers to perform repetitive tasks which are their bread and butter.
I played a game back in the day whose economy was totally crashed by botters. Players were dependent on the ability of druids to create healing runes, which were the most efficient (exp gained:gold spent per rune) way to level. Over time botters plunged the price of these runes to 1/3 of their prices months before, leading to a decreased number of players that wanted to play druids, leading to the botters becoming the sole producers of these runes.
To combat this, the company producing the game implemented measures (called soul points) which limited the number of runes players could make in one sitting as well as the ability of players to freely fish (in this game, being hungry = no regen).
Unfortunately at that point it was too late. Due to this and other admittedly bad decisions by the producers, the game went from ~60k online at any given point to what it is today: ~20k online at once.
This.
And some more points.
Pay 2 win is NOT subject to interpretation. It simply means that you can buy the best items, op buffs or op debuffs in a cash shop. You cannot compete in those games combat wise at all unless you are a whale or at least know one.
Nothing of this takes place in Archeage. If you don't want to buy LP pots or not get Patron status, then yes, you will be much slower in crafting than players who do. And I see no reason why this should be otherwise. There is no reason why bots and freeloaders should be able to flood the economy or even take real estate.
Your combat capacity is not in any way affected though. You can go everywhere, fight everyone, get into guilds to fight over territory and you can even build a clipper if you don't waste your gold and gilda stars on useless things.
Get rid of the idea that other people like to work for free for your entertainment. It's a lie. You can play for free but this doesn't mean that there is no difference between people paying the publishers investment and wages and people who think everything should be granted to them as a gift. Especially when giving F2P accounts the same economical power in a sandboxy game like Archeage is exploitable to the extreme.
Is this why Wurm Online, Mortal Online, Darkfall and others of the Sandboxish variety also have something like this implemented...oh wait...nevermind....they dont
I think it's just simply not a game if all you want to do is gather, farm, fish, craft, build, etc. as you will run out of LP quickly and have nothing else to do but standard PvE (quests, kill mobs, dungeons etc.) and PvP.
If you're someone that wants to do a bit of everything, and you have patron status, then I imagine you will be fine.
I'm not 100% sure if it's P2W though. There are some things that do make it seem that way. Pay for multiple accounts to have patron status, then buy LP potions for each account, and you'll easily be able to do more faster than anyone else. Is that winning? To those who's sole purpose is crafting high quality end game stuff, yeah, it could be.
I think the LP system is just silly overall, especially if you're a subscriber.
If the LP system did not exist in AA do you know how many exploits could be created in this game.
This is a sub game. Period.
FTP players are at a MASSIVE disadvantage. So MASSIVE it should be illegal to call it free to play.
So you're holding up Wurm, MO and DF as beacons of shining excellence in the MMO arena? Okay... I think AA wants to take a different route than them
So what you are saying is that the developers were either lazy, not creative enough or (my guess) wanted to capitalize by not making a system to handle this that would also not effect subscribers?
Please explain how LP makes AA a "beacon of shining excellence in the MMO arena"? Do I need to get you back on track about the real argument at hand?
THE LF system is a way to force players into: 1. Founders Pack; 2. Subbing to the game; 3. Buying LF boost tonics from the CS. It is a cash grab plain and simple
In Allods Online, at one point, you could only buy the buff Perfume from the CS in the game. This buff was needed to PvE in open PvE/PvP areas. This LF system strikes me as the same thing. A big cash grab P2W scheme.
Alright. Is AA P2W? How are you defining winning? By having a bigger bank balance due to being able to plant and harvest faster? Maybe, or you could be a pirate, robbing subbed fools on the open sea. The neat thing about this game is that there are multiple paths open to advancement and profit, and not all are limited to LP.
But if there were no system like LP in place I would bet the game would be a loss for everyone, whether or not they paid. By all accounts, people are able to carry on LP activities for hours at a time before running out... I think that somewhere on these forums someone did a breakdown.