While i wouldn't put it quite as scathingly as the OP, I do agree that even selling cosmetics (in sub based games) tends to drain the life out of them.
One of things I like about FFXIV is all the little events they have for cosmetic stuff. At the end of the day it's just fluff and the events aren't much in terms of content, but they add a sense of life to the world. Also, it means that if I see someone in game with cool looking gear I know they got it in game and that I can too; nothing breaks immersion like a credit card.
While i wouldn't put it quite as scathingly as the OP, I do agree that even selling cosmetics (in sub based games) tends to drain the life out of them.
One of things I like about FFXIV is all the little events they have for cosmetic stuff. At the end of the day it's just fluff and the events aren't much in terms of content, but they add a sense of life to the world. Also, it means that if I see someone in game with cool looking gear I know they got it in game and that I can too; nothing breaks immersion like a credit card.
Yes indeed it is the feel and atmosphere of MMOPRG's that get truly destroyed by micro transactions.
I also agree that P2P games can be just as bad as hybrid games. Tera doesn't have anything like WoW it's pay for level 80(or was it 90?) system.
I wonder if anyone has ever tried to run an MMOPRG like commercial television, every 30 mins or so get the server paused for a few mins and are advertisements shown to the player, after this continues the server where it left off just like a movie on commercial television. Maybe wouldn't this generate enough revenue to run a MMOPRG thought.
Rewind a handful of years here and you would have seen on this forum a small handful of posters, including me, arguing against the rise of the so called "F2P'" cash shop model and trying to explain what it meant to games and how it was anti-gamer.
We were attacked and met with hostility. We were called outdated and archaic, and told our time was up and we had better get used to the new way of things, because it was "inevitable" and unstoppable. We were told that no one wanted the level playing field of subs and that we might as well leave the genre.
Well, you know what? You all got what you argued so hard for.
Personally, I am done with it all and a part of me can't help but find where we are now a bit funny.
As we say in economics.. "There is no such thing as a free lunch".. In our case, Free to Play games.. Oh sure for some it will be free if they don't mind being handicapped through most of the game.. Cash shops survive using hidden walls and hurdles to get players to depart with their hard earned cash.. Now, don't get me wrong, there are times that a F2P game is attractive and warranted by some players.. Such as the super casual player that only logs every so often, and can't justify a steady subscription.. Like me and Diablo 3.. No way I play often enough to justify it.. Same with GW2... So far I think GW2 has the best option for casual players.. Buy to Play, with a cash shop on the side.. BUT, it has come to my knowledge that GW2 is starting to put in some "pay for advantage" items in their game.. That I disagree with if they have done so..
I always felt that cash shops should be about convenience, or unlocking new areas, inventories or character slots.. etc etc.. Things that are cosmetic in nature.. But should never be "Pay to Win" items..
I'd guess there are no games left which you can't P2W in and that's the players fault, not all but those who use the litter of 3rd party sites offering in-game currencies, power levelling etc etc
So you can probably P2W any of them it's just that the method varies (via game or 3rd party site)
You're not alone. You're just a fickle minority that never gathered in a single place long enough or in enough numbers to support the type of games you say you wanted them to build.
Pretty much. People blame "F2P" "Freeloaders" "P2W" folks when in reality this is the effect as to why so many games have gone F2P or have shut down (those that started out exclusively using the P2P business model). As for the cause... well there are a dozen or so reasons as to why that is; something I've talked about over and over again in the past.
OP it seems you went out of your way to do some research so I'll help you out in another response. But I just had to quote Demon's response.
You're not alone. You're just a fickle minority that never gathered in a single place long enough or in enough numbers to support the type of games you say you wanted them to build.
Pretty much. People blame "F2P" "Freeloaders" "P2W" folks when in reality this is the effect as to why so many games have gone F2P or have shut down (those that started out exclusively using the P2P business model). As for the cause... well there are a dozen or so reasons as to why that is; something I've talked about over and over again in the past.
OP it seems you went out of your way to do some research so I'll help you out in another response. But I just had to quote Demon's response.
Exactly you should have supported the games like Everquest 2 , Vanguard,City of X and so on when it mattered. But you all bailed for one reason or another and now we have this. I always support the games I like by paying a subscription even when I take a break because I want the game to keep going. Your lack of support and selfishness lead to the current state of games.
Originally posted by Golelorn Rift, DDO, EQ2, EQ, WoW, Path of Exile, AoC, TSW, EVE, GW, GW2... I mean really guy? Most legit western MMOs are fine. You wanna play for free you're going to lag behind slightly. Its better than not playing at all, imo.
Even WoW and FF XIV do have cosmetic&looks advantage.
WoW also does have 'pet battles advantage' and sell 'xp' (with it's new expansion) + gold advantage (allowing some items from cash shop to be sold on AH for gold), etc
There is no MMORPG that does sell ONLY access to it anymore afaik. All of them sell something directly for $, some may sell mostly 'looks', other may sell looks&travel and other more or less direct progression, combat, gold, etc advantage but all of them sell something.
That won't change unless two things happen:
1. Game companies (& maybe technology or country laws) find a way to minimalize RMT
2. MORE IMPORTANTLY - players will want to PAY for RMT-free (including multiboxing, bots,etc) game enviroment. and that won't be cheap (sub would have to be much more than 15$).
This thread feels like it was posted just for the sake of complaining. There are so many MMOs which don't sell an advantage but the OP will focus on some random meaningless things. E.g. in WoW they sell a mount. REally? How is that an advantage. All mounts have the same speed, it's just there are a few mount skins which are in a shop.
PRetty much all subscription MMOs don't allow you to buy an advantage.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Even WoW and FF XIV do have cosmetic&looks advantage.
WoW also does have 'pet battles advantage' and sell 'xp' (with it's new expansion) + gold advantage (allowing some items from cash shop to be sold on AH for gold), etc
There is no MMORPG that does sell ONLY access to it anymore afaik. All of them sell something directly for $, some may sell mostly 'looks', other may sell looks&travel and other more or less direct progression, combat, gold, etc advantage but all of them sell something.
That won't change unless two things happen:
1. Game companies (& maybe technology or country laws) find a way to minimalize RMT
2. MORE IMPORTANTLY - players will want to PAY for RMT-free (including multiboxing, bots,etc) game enviroment. and that won't be cheap (sub would have to be much more than 15$).
Cosmetic and looks advantage...really? There is an advantage here? Pet battle advantage? You do know pets share the same abilities. XP with buying a level 90 that is not max level is not really an advantage especially at such a high price. Think you are reaching.
Here is mine: A pay for advantage system is a system where spending real money on an OFFICIAL way(except the subscription) gives you ANY kind of advantage, whatever that is stats/looks/titles/a single pixel. Black market sales that the developer fight don't count.
Now lets apply this definition to all games mentioned here:
Wildstar: You can earn in game money by buying CREDD with real money and selling it. Pay for advantage!
Everquest: They have krono that just works as Wildstars CREDD->pay for advantage
EVE: Same system as Wildstar and everquest->pay for advantage
EQ2: big cash shop with even stat items in it->pay for advantage
Rift: Cash shop that sells raid items->pay for advantage
DDO: They sell quest Xp elixirs what more do I need to say->pay for advantage
WoW: You can buy mount and level up->pay for advantage
Path of Exile: You can buy cosmetic stuff->pay for advantage
AoC: Found nonthing pay for advantage in this one yet
GW: You can buy skills with real money->pay for advantage
GW2: Has cosmetic and convenience items in cash shop->pay for advantage
TSW: sells cosmetic items in cash shop->pay for advantage
Aion: has cash shop with XP potions->pay for advantage
Tera: Cash shop with cosmetic items->pay for advantage
Anyone know AC(and maybe AC2) better to clarify if I'm right about that one?
Is any oft he above mentioned games are actually subscription based?
Note that MMORPG.com changed a bit earlier this year (or was it late last year) in regards to their "Game List." They started adding single player RPG games under the same list. I don't mind that at all, but they should have placed it under another tab. In any case here is an article I wrote up in 2013 in regards to the P2P MMO landscape.
I broke it up in several major sections such as payment range and other factors since each section is quite long. I noted that this included everything under the MMO sub-genre umbrella except FPS since I don't follow that genre a whole lot. But like I said in the past, if someone knows of a new MMO or new MMOFPS that exclusively uses the P2P business model in the west I will be more than happy to add them.
The subgenre includes the following: Fantasy, Historical, Horror, Real Life, Sports, Super Hero, Sci-Fi minus FPS. As it stands these are the remaining MMO games that use the P2P business model (again exclusively).
Games released prior to 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
Dark Age of Camelot 2001
A Tale in the Desert 2003 (Note that eGenesis and Pluribus Games no longer manage or develop the game)
EVE Online 2003 (Has a cash shop)
FFXI 2003
World of Warcraft 2004 (Has a cash shop)
Vendetta Online 2004 (Has talked about having a cash shop: None implemented so far)
Games released post 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
DarkFall 2009 (Asia sector has a cash shop)
The Hammers End 2013
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 2013 (Has talked about having a cash shop: None implemented so far)
The Elder Scrolls Online 2014 (Has a cash shop)
WildStar 2014 (Will most likely have a cash shop or go F2P: All 14 NA servers are being reduced to 1 PVP, 1 PVE, and 0 RP servers. Take note that this is published by NCSOFT; you are more than welcome to check their history as to what they do to underperforming P2P titles.)
So out of the 600 or so online/MMO games listed on this site only 11 games currently use the P2P business model exclusively.
Wildstar will most likely be the first from that list to change their business model so I'll focus on the other 10. WOW currently offers 10 vanity pets and 9 mounts. There are currently 425 mounts in World of Warcrraft and 9 of those are in the cash shop; not sure if that could be considered as an advantage per your definition.
If you need a MMO that is P2P and does not offer s single pixel in the cash shop then you have 7 options, but note that 2 of those 7 options have officially stated that they are looking into "other" options such as implementing a cash shop.
So yes the overall choices are extremely limited but they do exist. As far as games being released between tomorrow and 2017 that will only use a P2P and no cash shop... to my knowledge so far the grand total is zero.
No MMO lacks a "pay for advantage" system because stupid people keep feeding the gold-sellers. When the gold-sellers don't make a living off selling game currencies, then subscription games will return to not having an option to pay for an advantage. Unfortunately, there is no lack of a supply in stupid people predicted for the next one hundred years. It might be a while before we see a MMO where real money doesn't buy you an advantage over others.
Cosmetic and looks advantage...really? There is an advantage here? Pet battle advantage? You do know pets share the same abilities. XP with buying a level 90 that is not max level is not really an advantage especially at such a high price. Think you are reaching.
Really.
People care about looks, some as much (or even more) than about combat or conveniance. That is why they pay $ for it. It was always like that - even in times of pure P2P - rare cosmetic items often had AH prices reaching similar amount of end game combat enchancing items. Similarly some people were ready to grind certain mobs, intances or other things dozens or even hundreads of time in order to get rare cosmetic item.
So I don't really know what you are surprised about?
'High Price' - what price amount has to do with any of it? Is it 'advantage' only if it is low price? medium? high? Who define what is 'high' or 'low' price? Me? You? By some voting? I think it is you who is reaching.
Originally posted by dreamscaper To my knowledge, basically only Everquest, World of Warcraft (mount of the month doesn't count), and Final Fantasy XIV are avoiding this.
Yeah from the remaining 11 P2P MMORPGs left... and going by his criteria of having no cash shop... that would leave him with 7 games.
Dark Age of Camelot 2001
A Tale in the Desert 2003
FFXI 2003
Vendetta Online 2004
DarkFall 2009
The Hammers End 2013
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 2013
I didn't add Wildstar to this response since there’s pretty good chance that will change in the near future. I do agree that World of Warcraft doesn't really count. I mean 425 mounts are available ingame and currently 9 of those are in the cash shop. That makes up 2% of the total mounts in WOW.
Even WoW and FF XIV do have cosmetic&looks advantage.
WoW also does have 'pet battles advantage' and sell 'xp' (with it's new expansion) + gold advantage (allowing some items from cash shop to be sold on AH for gold), etc
There is no MMORPG that does sell ONLY access to it anymore afaik. All of them sell something directly for $, some may sell mostly 'looks', other may sell looks&travel and other more or less direct progression, combat, gold, etc advantage but all of them sell something.
That won't change unless two things happen:
1. Game companies (& maybe technology or country laws) find a way to minimalize RMT
2. MORE IMPORTANTLY - players will want to PAY for RMT-free (including multiboxing, bots,etc) game enviroment. and that won't be cheap (sub would have to be much more than 15$).
WoW does, FFXIV doesn't. FFXIV doesn't have a cash shop of any variety. If you're talking about the two-person chocobo, that's from the recruit-a-friend promotion, not a cash shop.
Note that MMORPG.com changed a bit earlier this year (or was it late last year) in regards to their "Game List." They started adding single player RPG games under the same list. I don't mind that at all, but they should have placed it under another tab. In any case here is an article I wrote up in 2013 in regards to the P2P MMO landscape.
I broke it up in several major sections such as payment range and other factors since each section is quite long. I noted that this included everything under the MMO sub-genre umbrella except FPS since I don't follow that genre a whole lot. But like I said in the past, if someone knows of a new MMO or new MMOFPS that exclusively uses the P2P business model in the west I will be more than happy to add them.
The subgenre includes the following: Fantasy, Historical, Horror, Real Life, Sports, Super Hero, Sci-Fi minus FPS. As it stands these are the remaining MMO games that use the P2P business model (again exclusively).
Games released prior to 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
Dark Age of Camelot 2001
A Tale in the Desert 2003 (Note that eGenesis and Pluribus Games no longer manage or develop the game)
EVE Online 2003 (Has a cash shop)
FFXI 2003
World of Warcraft 2004 (Has a cash shop)
Vendetta Online 2004 (Has talked about having a cash shop: None implemented so far)
Games released post 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
DarkFall 2009 (Asia sector has a cash shop)
The Hammers End 2013
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 2013 (Has talked about having a cash shop: None implemented so far)
The Elder Scrolls Online 2014 (Has a cash shop)
WildStar 2014 (Will most likely have a cash shop or go F2P: All 14 NA servers are being reduced to 1 PVP, 1 PVE, and 0 RP servers. Take note that this is published by NCSOFT; you are more than welcome to check their history as to what they do to underperforming P2P titles.)
So out of the 600 or so online/MMO games listed on this site only 11 games currently use the P2P business model exclusively.
Wildstar will most likely be the first from that list to change their business model so I'll focus on the other 10. WOW currently offers 10 vanity pets and 9 mounts. There are currently 425 mounts in World of Warcrraft and 9 of those are in the cash shop; not sure if that could be considered as an advantage per your definition.
If you need a MMO that is P2P and does not offer s single pixel in the cash shop then you have 7 options, but note that 2 of those 7 options have officially stated that they are looking into "other" options such as implementing a cash shop.
So yes the overall choices are extremely limited but they do exist. As far as games being released between tomorrow and 2017 that will only use a P2P and no cash shop... to my knowledge so far the grand total is zero.
Good informative post. Well written!
PS. MMORPG.com does not only list single player RPGs under their so-called 'MMORPG list', they do also list co-op, lobby or any kind of game that is clearly not MMO but has some form of multiplayer. Including FPS shooters, hack&slash like Diablo games, MOBAs, card collection games and basically almost everything.
It is not a 'MMORPG list' for quite some time.
Originally posted by dreamscaper
WoW does, FFXIV doesn't. FFXIV doesn't have a cash shop of any variety. If you're talking about the two-person chocobo, that's from the recruit-a-friend promotion, not a cash shop.
Originally posted by Golelorn Rift, DDO, EQ2, EQ, WoW, Path of Exile, AoC, TSW, EVE, GW, GW2... I mean really guy? Most legit western MMOs are fine. You wanna play for free you're going to lag behind slightly. Its better than not playing at all, imo.
This. The OP just wants to whine.
Well, I'm not so sure about that.
And there's an interesting thing in what Golelorn says... They justify people being advantaged through paying, by saying:
"You wanna play for free you're going to lag behind slightly. Its better than not playing at all, imo."
Yet, right in this very thread, on the first page, we have Kyleran saying of sub-based MMOs:
My biggest complaint in MMOs over the years is the huge advantage they gave no life players with more free time to spend on these ganes than me...
He even uses the very common, and always ignorant "no lifers" characterization to marginalize and degrade those who happen to have more free gaming time than he does (pure jealousy, basically). But he's not alone. There are plenty more who've used that same "I don't have as much time as others, so it's not fair that they can get farther than me" type of argument against P2P. It always has, and always will be an argument from pure shameless self-interest, made by people lacking a rational perspective of the world, and their place in it. The idea that one's personal life circumstances outside of the game somehow makes them special, and entitles them to an easier/faster ride in game is about as clear an example of the "Me Me Me" generation as you can find.
If we wanted to be fair - we could use Golelorn's argument with P2P as well. "If you have less time to play, you're going to fall behind others a bit. But it's better than not playing at all".
Somehow, though, I'm sure the F2P fans aren't going to see it that way. Somehow, there's a double-standard there, and it only applies when money comes into the picture.
People with rational perspectives, who don't suffer from "Me Me Me" syndrome, realize their personal life circumstances don't entitle them to anything. They realize they aren't the center of the universe, and their busy schedule is no one else's problem, nor anyone else's responsibility. They buy the game, pay their sub and play just like everyone else. Everyone has the same content to complete to get what they want, the same challenges, the same obstacles, the same choices and consequences to deal with. In that way, P2P MMOs are as level a playing field as you can get... "personal time limitations" notwithstanding.
If someone is unhappy that they can't make the progress they want due to their real-life situation, the reasonable thing to do is own that and work it out for themselves. They decide to either rearrange their schedule to allow more time, or adjust their expectations to more realistically fit their situation. Problem is, so many don't want to own anything. They accept no personal responsibility, and become indignant if you suggest they should. Instead, they make their grievances someone else's problem. In this case, it typically - somehow - becomes the Developers' responsibility.
In their minds, "I have a busy life and can't play as much as others, and I don't think that's fair. So, '-Developer Here-', you need to develop your game to cater to me" is purely rational and reasonable. Those who recognize the universe doesn't revolve around them, understand how entitled and unreasonable that mentality is.
I realize there's a number of people on these forums (and elsewhere) who fit the description I gave above. I also realize they're not going to like having a mirror held up to them like that. All I can say is... Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't make you think/act that way.
I say all this as someone who has personal time limitations and can't play as much as I used to. The difference is, unlike most others, I've realized that it's my responsiblity to adjust my expectations around my schedule. It's not the developers' responsibility to design their game around me.
Originally posted by dreamscaper To my knowledge, basically only Everquest, World of Warcraft (mount of the month doesn't count), and Final Fantasy XIV are avoiding this.
Yeah from the remaining 11 P2P MMORPGs left... and going by his criteria of having no cash shop... that would leave him with 7 games.
Dark Age of Camelot 2001
A Tale in the Desert 2003
FFXI 2003
Vendetta Online 2004
DarkFall 2009
The Hammers End 2013
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 2013
I didn't add Wildstar to this response since there’s pretty good chance that will change in the near future. I do agree that World of Warcraft doesn't really count. I mean 425 mounts are available ingame and currently 9 of those are in the cash shop. That makes up 2% of the total mounts in WOW.
I think you could add Asherons Call 1 and 2 ,,( i dont there is a cash shop in those) and Istaria /Horizons..
Others have done it, but let me also try to explain why many MMO gamers see the selling of cosmetic items as P2W:
When I first log into a new MMO, my character is usually wearing "rags" of some kind. Part of the hook of playing is seeing high level concept art or in-game characters running around in awesome looking gear that makes me want to conquer the game to get that look for my character. Maybe not for you, but for many gamers, the look of their character is the reward, the carrot on the stick, for defeating the challenges in the game.
Selling cosmetic items works to drastically undermine this motivation for playing the game. Now, if you are a gamer who is only interested in your character's stats and abilities, then I can see how you would have a hard time seeing our perspective. But hopefully this post helps.
There is a reason that MMO's save most of their cool looks for end-game content. It is the same reason that they now sell it, but that does ruin the motivation to earn it by actually playing the game.
It isn't just clothes. I'm playing GW2 now and I like the game a lot. This isn't a complaint just a point out. I passed a guy in my starter city who was playing a flute. I thought that would really add to my character's role playing identity. I asked him where he got it. He said, "In the shop for real life money." I had really hoped I could have quested or AH bought.
I don't think we should be spending cash on role playing items as well as game advancement items. What that leaves a game to sell in a cash shop I have no idea but role playing items are very important to mmo's and worth more status!
Main reason I'm against Cash Shops is their outrageous high pricing.
There's always this dumb ass point system like $10.00 usa dollars will get you 700 diamonds. And you are thinking, "wow that is a lot of diamonds," until you find out the least expensive cash shop item is 200 diamonds. Everything else (or anything you might really want) is 1200+ diamonds. That's bullshit. If you are going to have a cash shop then $10 usa dollars should be enough to pay for ten BIG ASS items. Or more!
Plus I wont use a credit card through my computer. Not even on a PayPal system. If there's no game card I'm not paying. It's the reason I left FFXIV. Square Enix had no game card for the United States and Ultimate Game Card went down.
I noticed some people want nice clothes for high level and not thru cash shop. That argument doesn't float. I paid for the entire game and I do not want to wait to become a high level before I'm allowed to wear nice clothes. I think the game should be enjoyable from beginning to end. If you want high level clothes to glow or some crazy extra crap great. Most the game time isn't spent at high levels for me and I'm sick of wearing rags. My surrounding scenery is pretty why can't I be??
Cosmetic items are not considered by game companies to be paying for an advantage. You might classify it as such but MOBAs and MMORPGs and may be even the FPS games that are multiplayer have these in the cash shop. I am 100% certain it is not going to go back to being considered fair game for a cash shop merchandise.
If you cannot accept this you are in the minority most players have accepted this reality and the price we paid for having clamoured for more free games. The games that tried to stand fast ended up caving in , in the end . We are at a precipice and I'm afraid MMORPGs will never go back to the golden time .Those of us who play the games now just compromise and make do with what we have. I cannot make games and I try my level best to support the games I do like. What else do you suggest we do as a minority ?
Whining and complaining isn't going to change the map of this reality.
It isn't just clothes. I'm playing GW2 now and I like the game a lot. This isn't a complaint just a point out. I passed a guy in my starter city who was playing a flute. I thought that would really add to my character's role playing identity. I asked him where he got it. He said, "In the shop for real life money." I had really hoped I could have quested or AH bought.
I don't think we should be spending cash on role playing items as well as game advancement items. What that leaves a game to sell in a cash shop I have no idea but role playing items are very important to mmo's and worth more status!
Main reason I'm against Cash Shops is their outrageous high pricing.
There's always this dumb ass point system like $10.00 usa dollars will get you 700 diamonds. And you are thinking, "wow that is a lot of diamonds," until you find out the least expensive cash shop item is 200 diamonds. Everything else (or anything you might really want) is 1200+ diamonds. That's bullshit. If you are going to have a cash shop then $10 usa dollars should be enough to pay for ten BIG ASS items. Or more!
Plus I wont use a credit card through my computer. Not even on a PayPal system. If there's no game card I'm not paying. It's the reason I left FFXIV. Square Enix had no game card for the United States and Ultimate Game Card went down.
I noticed some people want nice clothes for high level and not thru cash shop. That argument doesn't float. I paid for the entire game and I do not want to wait to become a high level before I'm allowed to wear nice clothes. I think the game should be enjoyable from beginning to end. If you want high level clothes to glow or some crazy extra crap great. Most the game time isn't spent at high levels for me and I'm sick of wearing rags. My surrounding scenery is pretty why can't I be??
You're probably already aware, but you can avoid paying cash if you really want to. You can convert your in-game gold directly into gems, but they're rather expensive.
Comments
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile
While i wouldn't put it quite as scathingly as the OP, I do agree that even selling cosmetics (in sub based games) tends to drain the life out of them.
One of things I like about FFXIV is all the little events they have for cosmetic stuff. At the end of the day it's just fluff and the events aren't much in terms of content, but they add a sense of life to the world. Also, it means that if I see someone in game with cool looking gear I know they got it in game and that I can too; nothing breaks immersion like a credit card.
Yes indeed it is the feel and atmosphere of MMOPRG's that get truly destroyed by micro transactions.
I also agree that P2P games can be just as bad as hybrid games. Tera doesn't have anything like WoW it's pay for level 80(or was it 90?) system.
I wonder if anyone has ever tried to run an MMOPRG like commercial television, every 30 mins or so get the server paused for a few mins and are advertisements shown to the player, after this continues the server where it left off just like a movie on commercial television. Maybe wouldn't this generate enough revenue to run a MMOPRG thought.
As we say in economics.. "There is no such thing as a free lunch".. In our case, Free to Play games.. Oh sure for some it will be free if they don't mind being handicapped through most of the game.. Cash shops survive using hidden walls and hurdles to get players to depart with their hard earned cash.. Now, don't get me wrong, there are times that a F2P game is attractive and warranted by some players.. Such as the super casual player that only logs every so often, and can't justify a steady subscription.. Like me and Diablo 3.. No way I play often enough to justify it.. Same with GW2... So far I think GW2 has the best option for casual players.. Buy to Play, with a cash shop on the side.. BUT, it has come to my knowledge that GW2 is starting to put in some "pay for advantage" items in their game.. That I disagree with if they have done so..
I always felt that cash shops should be about convenience, or unlocking new areas, inventories or character slots.. etc etc.. Things that are cosmetic in nature.. But should never be "Pay to Win" items..
I'd guess there are no games left which you can't P2W in and that's the players fault, not all but those who use the litter of 3rd party sites offering in-game currencies, power levelling etc etc
So you can probably P2W any of them it's just that the method varies (via game or 3rd party site)
[mod edit] I may try new mmos that come out, but I know the end results, and know they would not last !
They all suck anymore, with at least one major suck for each and every one. Over 200 mmos and they all suck !
I can make a long list here of the hard core suck but it would be too long.
Pretty much. People blame "F2P" "Freeloaders" "P2W" folks when in reality this is the effect as to why so many games have gone F2P or have shut down (those that started out exclusively using the P2P business model). As for the cause... well there are a dozen or so reasons as to why that is; something I've talked about over and over again in the past.
OP it seems you went out of your way to do some research so I'll help you out in another response. But I just had to quote Demon's response.
Exactly you should have supported the games like Everquest 2 , Vanguard,City of X and so on when it mattered. But you all bailed for one reason or another and now we have this. I always support the games I like by paying a subscription even when I take a break because I want the game to keep going. Your lack of support and selfishness lead to the current state of games.
This. The OP just wants to whine.
Not really.
Even WoW and FF XIV do have cosmetic&looks advantage.
WoW also does have 'pet battles advantage' and sell 'xp' (with it's new expansion) + gold advantage (allowing some items from cash shop to be sold on AH for gold), etc
There is no MMORPG that does sell ONLY access to it anymore afaik. All of them sell something directly for $, some may sell mostly 'looks', other may sell looks&travel and other more or less direct progression, combat, gold, etc advantage but all of them sell something.
That won't change unless two things happen:
1. Game companies (& maybe technology or country laws) find a way to minimalize RMT
2. MORE IMPORTANTLY - players will want to PAY for RMT-free (including multiboxing, bots,etc) game enviroment. and that won't be cheap (sub would have to be much more than 15$).
This thread feels like it was posted just for the sake of complaining. There are so many MMOs which don't sell an advantage but the OP will focus on some random meaningless things. E.g. in WoW they sell a mount. REally? How is that an advantage. All mounts have the same speed, it's just there are a few mount skins which are in a shop.
PRetty much all subscription MMOs don't allow you to buy an advantage.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Cosmetic and looks advantage...really? There is an advantage here? Pet battle advantage? You do know pets share the same abilities. XP with buying a level 90 that is not max level is not really an advantage especially at such a high price. Think you are reaching.
Note that MMORPG.com changed a bit earlier this year (or was it late last year) in regards to their "Game List." They started adding single player RPG games under the same list. I don't mind that at all, but they should have placed it under another tab. In any case here is an article I wrote up in 2013 in regards to the P2P MMO landscape.
I broke it up in several major sections such as payment range and other factors since each section is quite long. I noted that this included everything under the MMO sub-genre umbrella except FPS since I don't follow that genre a whole lot. But like I said in the past, if someone knows of a new MMO or new MMOFPS that exclusively uses the P2P business model in the west I will be more than happy to add them.
The subgenre includes the following: Fantasy, Historical, Horror, Real Life, Sports, Super Hero, Sci-Fi minus FPS. As it stands these are the remaining MMO games that use the P2P business model (again exclusively).
Games released prior to 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
Dark Age of Camelot 2001
A Tale in the Desert 2003 (Note that eGenesis and Pluribus Games no longer manage or develop the game)
EVE Online 2003 (Has a cash shop)
FFXI 2003
World of Warcraft 2004 (Has a cash shop)
Vendetta Online 2004 (Has talked about having a cash shop: None implemented so far)
Games released post 2005 that still use the P2P business model:
DarkFall 2009 (Asia sector has a cash shop)
The Hammers End 2013
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 2013 (Has talked about having a cash shop: None implemented so far)
The Elder Scrolls Online 2014 (Has a cash shop)
WildStar 2014 (Will most likely have a cash shop or go F2P: All 14 NA servers are being reduced to 1 PVP, 1 PVE, and 0 RP servers. Take note that this is published by NCSOFT; you are more than welcome to check their history as to what they do to underperforming P2P titles.)
So out of the 600 or so online/MMO games listed on this site only 11 games currently use the P2P business model exclusively.
Wildstar will most likely be the first from that list to change their business model so I'll focus on the other 10. WOW currently offers 10 vanity pets and 9 mounts. There are currently 425 mounts in World of Warcrraft and 9 of those are in the cash shop; not sure if that could be considered as an advantage per your definition.
If you need a MMO that is P2P and does not offer s single pixel in the cash shop then you have 7 options, but note that 2 of those 7 options have officially stated that they are looking into "other" options such as implementing a cash shop.
So yes the overall choices are extremely limited but they do exist. As far as games being released between tomorrow and 2017 that will only use a P2P and no cash shop... to my knowledge so far the grand total is zero.
Really.
People care about looks, some as much (or even more) than about combat or conveniance. That is why they pay $ for it. It was always like that - even in times of pure P2P - rare cosmetic items often had AH prices reaching similar amount of end game combat enchancing items. Similarly some people were ready to grind certain mobs, intances or other things dozens or even hundreads of time in order to get rare cosmetic item.
So I don't really know what you are surprised about?
'High Price' - what price amount has to do with any of it? Is it 'advantage' only if it is low price? medium? high? Who define what is 'high' or 'low' price? Me? You? By some voting? I think it is you who is reaching.
Yeah from the remaining 11 P2P MMORPGs left... and going by his criteria of having no cash shop... that would leave him with 7 games.
Dark Age of Camelot 2001
A Tale in the Desert 2003
FFXI 2003
Vendetta Online 2004
DarkFall 2009
The Hammers End 2013
Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 2013
I didn't add Wildstar to this response since there’s pretty good chance that will change in the near future. I do agree that World of Warcraft doesn't really count. I mean 425 mounts are available ingame and currently 9 of those are in the cash shop. That makes up 2% of the total mounts in WOW.
WoW does, FFXIV doesn't. FFXIV doesn't have a cash shop of any variety. If you're talking about the two-person chocobo, that's from the recruit-a-friend promotion, not a cash shop.
Good informative post. Well written!
PS. MMORPG.com does not only list single player RPGs under their so-called 'MMORPG list', they do also list co-op, lobby or any kind of game that is clearly not MMO but has some form of multiplayer. Including FPS shooters, hack&slash like Diablo games, MOBAs, card collection games and basically almost everything.
It is not a 'MMORPG list' for quite some time.
I stand corrected. Thanks!
Well, I'm not so sure about that.
And there's an interesting thing in what Golelorn says... They justify people being advantaged through paying, by saying:
"You wanna play for free you're going to lag behind slightly. Its better than not playing at all, imo."
Yet, right in this very thread, on the first page, we have Kyleran saying of sub-based MMOs:
My biggest complaint in MMOs over the years is the huge advantage they gave no life players with more free time to spend on these ganes than me...
He even uses the very common, and always ignorant "no lifers" characterization to marginalize and degrade those who happen to have more free gaming time than he does (pure jealousy, basically). But he's not alone. There are plenty more who've used that same "I don't have as much time as others, so it's not fair that they can get farther than me" type of argument against P2P. It always has, and always will be an argument from pure shameless self-interest, made by people lacking a rational perspective of the world, and their place in it. The idea that one's personal life circumstances outside of the game somehow makes them special, and entitles them to an easier/faster ride in game is about as clear an example of the "Me Me Me" generation as you can find.
If we wanted to be fair - we could use Golelorn's argument with P2P as well. "If you have less time to play, you're going to fall behind others a bit. But it's better than not playing at all".
Somehow, though, I'm sure the F2P fans aren't going to see it that way. Somehow, there's a double-standard there, and it only applies when money comes into the picture.
People with rational perspectives, who don't suffer from "Me Me Me" syndrome, realize their personal life circumstances don't entitle them to anything. They realize they aren't the center of the universe, and their busy schedule is no one else's problem, nor anyone else's responsibility. They buy the game, pay their sub and play just like everyone else. Everyone has the same content to complete to get what they want, the same challenges, the same obstacles, the same choices and consequences to deal with. In that way, P2P MMOs are as level a playing field as you can get... "personal time limitations" notwithstanding.
If someone is unhappy that they can't make the progress they want due to their real-life situation, the reasonable thing to do is own that and work it out for themselves. They decide to either rearrange their schedule to allow more time, or adjust their expectations to more realistically fit their situation. Problem is, so many don't want to own anything. They accept no personal responsibility, and become indignant if you suggest they should. Instead, they make their grievances someone else's problem. In this case, it typically - somehow - becomes the Developers' responsibility.
In their minds, "I have a busy life and can't play as much as others, and I don't think that's fair. So, '-Developer Here-', you need to develop your game to cater to me" is purely rational and reasonable. Those who recognize the universe doesn't revolve around them, understand how entitled and unreasonable that mentality is.
I realize there's a number of people on these forums (and elsewhere) who fit the description I gave above. I also realize they're not going to like having a mirror held up to them like that. All I can say is... Hey, don't shoot the messenger. I didn't make you think/act that way.
I say all this as someone who has personal time limitations and can't play as much as I used to. The difference is, unlike most others, I've realized that it's my responsiblity to adjust my expectations around my schedule. It's not the developers' responsibility to design their game around me.
I think you could add Asherons Call 1 and 2 ,,( i dont there is a cash shop in those) and Istaria /Horizons..
Others have done it, but let me also try to explain why many MMO gamers see the selling of cosmetic items as P2W:
When I first log into a new MMO, my character is usually wearing "rags" of some kind. Part of the hook of playing is seeing high level concept art or in-game characters running around in awesome looking gear that makes me want to conquer the game to get that look for my character. Maybe not for you, but for many gamers, the look of their character is the reward, the carrot on the stick, for defeating the challenges in the game.
Selling cosmetic items works to drastically undermine this motivation for playing the game. Now, if you are a gamer who is only interested in your character's stats and abilities, then I can see how you would have a hard time seeing our perspective. But hopefully this post helps.
There is a reason that MMO's save most of their cool looks for end-game content. It is the same reason that they now sell it, but that does ruin the motivation to earn it by actually playing the game.
It isn't just clothes. I'm playing GW2 now and I like the game a lot. This isn't a complaint just a point out. I passed a guy in my starter city who was playing a flute. I thought that would really add to my character's role playing identity. I asked him where he got it. He said, "In the shop for real life money." I had really hoped I could have quested or AH bought.
I don't think we should be spending cash on role playing items as well as game advancement items. What that leaves a game to sell in a cash shop I have no idea but role playing items are very important to mmo's and worth more status!
Main reason I'm against Cash Shops is their outrageous high pricing.
There's always this dumb ass point system like $10.00 usa dollars will get you 700 diamonds. And you are thinking, "wow that is a lot of diamonds," until you find out the least expensive cash shop item is 200 diamonds. Everything else (or anything you might really want) is 1200+ diamonds. That's bullshit. If you are going to have a cash shop then $10 usa dollars should be enough to pay for ten BIG ASS items. Or more!
Plus I wont use a credit card through my computer. Not even on a PayPal system. If there's no game card I'm not paying. It's the reason I left FFXIV. Square Enix had no game card for the United States and Ultimate Game Card went down.
I noticed some people want nice clothes for high level and not thru cash shop. That argument doesn't float. I paid for the entire game and I do not want to wait to become a high level before I'm allowed to wear nice clothes. I think the game should be enjoyable from beginning to end. If you want high level clothes to glow or some crazy extra crap great. Most the game time isn't spent at high levels for me and I'm sick of wearing rags. My surrounding scenery is pretty why can't I be??
Cosmetic items are not considered by game companies to be paying for an advantage. You might classify it as such but MOBAs and MMORPGs and may be even the FPS games that are multiplayer have these in the cash shop. I am 100% certain it is not going to go back to being considered fair game for a cash shop merchandise.
If you cannot accept this you are in the minority most players have accepted this reality and the price we paid for having clamoured for more free games. The games that tried to stand fast ended up caving in , in the end . We are at a precipice and I'm afraid MMORPGs will never go back to the golden time .Those of us who play the games now just compromise and make do with what we have. I cannot make games and I try my level best to support the games I do like. What else do you suggest we do as a minority ?
Whining and complaining isn't going to change the map of this reality.
You're probably already aware, but you can avoid paying cash if you really want to. You can convert your in-game gold directly into gems, but they're rather expensive.