So, basically from reading this thread, the impression i'm getting is that ArcheAge basically operates the same way as farmville and all of those ridiculous facebook games, in so much as, you get a certain number of spendable "credits" (or whatever they term the spendable unit) every hour or every 24 hours or whatever. Which you use to purchase things in game, whether its land, stuff to put on the land, etc, but if you want to pay for more of these said credits, you can, and then you dont have to wait.
Explain to me how thats not the definition of pay to win?
Because you get given a set amount of labour points just for having an account. These labour points are no different than the ones you buy if you want to go faster.
These labour potions are also tradable in game, meaning that if you have the gold you can buy them through playing. It takes me about two 8 min trade runs to earn the gold for a potion. Hence you gain them by playing the game.
Want to buy a sub? Earn the gold easily in game by playing. want to buy anything from the cash shop? Earn the gold easily in game by playing.
How is this pay to win?
A more casual player using a labour potion on a 11 hour cool down has no more advantage over me as a more dedicated player having spent around 15 mins to earn the gold to buy the same potion.
You don't use labour points to purchase land btw, you use gold. Gold is easily obtainable and flows freely if you make the effort to earn it.
You must be joking right. You literally just defined pay to win.
MMO's are about progression, progression is typically measured either in A. Time Spent in game (see EVE skill points), or B. Gear+Levels.
The difference is, gear and levels take time to acheive, so anything that allows you to circumvent that time requirement is by definition pay to win.
The "but you can earn it in game if you do X or Y" is a completely bunk argument that has been shot full of holes about three million times over. I seriously don't understand why people still play that card, its embarassing.
If paying money allows you to get ahead of someone who is NOT able to pay the money, then its pay 2 win, thats simply all there is to it.
For someone that clearly hasn't even played the game, you have strong views on it.
That aside.
I think you didn't get the point that I can play and earn, easily, the same as the paying customer in a very short time. This is progression through play, by definition.
If I do that, I am not spending real money to progress, I am playing the game to progress. This is play to achieve, with the option for the casual player to buy the same thing if they are very time poor.
Maybe you should log in and see what i am saying before we carry this chat on, because right now you seem to be operating on second hand information and bad received wisdom.
So, basically from reading this thread, the impression i'm getting is that ArcheAge basically operates the same way as farmville and all of those ridiculous facebook games, in so much as, you get a certain number of spendable "credits" (or whatever they term the spendable unit) every hour or every 24 hours or whatever. Which you use to purchase things in game, whether its land, stuff to put on the land, etc, but if you want to pay for more of these said credits, you can, and then you dont have to wait.
Explain to me how thats not the definition of pay to win?
Because you get given a set amount of labour points just for having an account. These labour points are no different than the ones you buy if you want to go faster.
These labour potions are also tradable in game, meaning that if you have the gold you can buy them through playing. It takes me about two 8 min trade runs to earn the gold for a potion. Hence you gain them by playing the game.
Want to buy a sub? Earn the gold easily in game by playing. want to buy anything from the cash shop? Earn the gold easily in game by playing.
How is this pay to win?
A more casual player using a labour potion on a 11 hour cool down has no more advantage over me as a more dedicated player having spent around 15 mins to earn the gold to buy the same potion.
You don't use labour points to purchase land btw, you use gold. Gold is easily obtainable and flows freely if you make the effort to earn it.
You must be joking right. You literally just defined pay to win.
MMO's are about progression, progression is typically measured either in A. Time Spent in game (see EVE skill points), or B. Gear+Levels.
The difference is, gear and levels take time to acheive, so anything that allows you to circumvent that time requirement is by definition pay to win.
The "but you can earn it in game if you do X or Y" is a completely bunk argument that has been shot full of holes about three million times over. I seriously don't understand why people still play that card, its embarassing.
If paying money allows you to get ahead of someone who is NOT able to pay the money, then its pay 2 win, thats simply all there is to it.
But if you are not even paying the money (to be a patron) then how are you even a customer of the game?
If you a not a customer why should Trion cater for you might I ask? They have already gave you an opportunity to earn your way even though you are NOT a customer at all. I think that's already pretty generous.
Patron status is a very, very basic requirement...
They are not exactly selling you epic gears through cash AFTER you subscribed here. If that was the case than that would been "pay 2 win"; however, it is not the case.
It's pretty much pay to craft as others have said. Without being able to own a farm you will take 2 or 3 times as long to get things unless you are willing to buy off AH at inflated prices. A patron could let you use their farm but I don't see many people doing that as they wouldn't be able to plant stuff.
Not to mention that the labor point regen is really nice for patrons.
You could just about do everything for free but it will take a major investment to get anywhere. I could care less about a house but a farm is a must unless you are going to try and farm publicly which is a real pain to find somewhere to hide your stuff.
It's pretty much pay to craft as others have said. Without being able to own a farm you will take 2 or 3 times as long to get things unless you are willing to buy off AH at inflated prices. A patron could let you use their farm but I don't see many people doing that as they wouldn't be able to plant stuff.
Weird, because the freeb 'tenant' I have using my little farm in exchaage for their labour on my other holdings seems to be doing just fine.
They are doing trade runs, buying pots, and making gold just nicely it seems.
It's pretty much pay to craft as others have said. Without being able to own a farm you will take 2 or 3 times as long to get things unless you are willing to buy off AH at inflated prices. A patron could let you use their farm but I don't see many people doing that as they wouldn't be able to plant stuff.
Not to mention that the labor point regen is really nice for patrons.
Actually in a guild a lot of patron does that as they don't have enough labor points to manage their own farms most of the time.
Labor pots have cooldowns.
Patron regen is faster but NOT so fast that you won't use it up very quickly.
You are totally ignoring the fact also that crafting consume HUGE amounts of labor - all I have to do is craft 1 set of armor and I will be down 1000+ labor easily. After I craft one or 2 sets of armor I can pretty much forget about working my farms because I won't have the labor points to do it.
Sharing farm usage and profits with your family is pretty much required if you want to use labor in any productive way.
God you lot make me laugh.. If you pay and get an advantage it is p2w .. Seriously??
That defines most of the MMO's for years as p2w
Rift - you sub and get an advantage, same with AO, SWTOR etc etc
Maybe the term should be FaM .. Free and moan
Made me chuckle, and I ofc agree.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Dear lord? 6 pages to answer a yes or no question?
I go away for a few hours and I come back to crazyness..
So, yes..I can play as a free player, and access everything a sub player can, its just going to take more time to do it...
is this the simple answer?
(Think about how this works in every other game where player A wants to race to cap, get the best gear and pwn noobs.. doesn't really change much when you think about it that way does it?)
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I am seeing all kinds of redefining pay to win.....even to the point of saying you don't "win" in MMOs. Well, What do you call it when, you are facing off against another player(s) who hands you your ass? I'm calling that a "win". I mean, fine if you don't want to call it "winning" we can call it anything you want. So what do we call it now when a player or group of players in better gear, kills you and/or your group in PVP? What ever that definition is.......That's what some players in AA are paying to do.
To me, P2W is simple. When the dust settles in AA, and all the top dogs and top guilds are established. If the Cash Shop use was a big part of how they got there, then it's P2W. Otherwise, if non cash shop paying players and/or guilds are able to compete on even ground.....consistently, then I'll say, nope, not P2W.
lol some of you make it out like you'd never lose in pvp if the game didn't have a cash shop. Face it, you need an excuse when you lose or a reason why you don't pvp and p2w works every time.
Originally posted by DamonVile lol some of you make it out like you'd never lose in pvp if the game didn't have a cash shop. Face it, you need an excuse when you lose or a reason why you don't pvp and p2w works every time.
and some of you are afraid that you would never win without cash shop.
Originally posted by Bolthar Pay to faster but if your racing then faster = win. IMHO they have it for non subscribers and non CS a bit TOO limited. They could afford to up the regen to half that of the subscribers and still be okay. I stopped playing because I took the amount of items I was doing and determined when I hit my LP limit and then did the math for being a sub to see I would still hit LP limits when subbed. Anything like that that limits even your standard subbed gameplay and tries to get me onto the CS is not a game for me. Either CS the entire thing or sub it but don't be a sub with a gameplay requirement onto the CS LP pots. Just pure money grab.
Except you didn't buy a box, so how do they get their money back without pushing you to CS? I can't understand the whingeing about this game being a money grab when you pay nothing for the game. Compare other sub games where you buy the game for $50 and then pay $15 a month. That would be $215 for a year of play and I bet you would spend less in the CS than that over a year in AA.
I didn't buy a box your right so that gives them the right to push me to a sub for a monthly gain AND to make me hit the CS? Sorry but I disagree. If you want X money for generalized content development (don't forget this is already developed in another locations and this is almost pure money in both companies for the most parts because its just a port over and requires little development resource use). And your taking like there is no sub fee for AA? There is, so the only difference is the box.
Originally posted by intrinsc In Pay 2 Win you typically gain a significant advantage over others by paying for things in a game store. This is true in ArcheAge. Pay 2 Win gives you crafting materials easily which translates to BIS equipment, etc. Whomever says this isn't P2W is either delusional, an extreme fanboy, or just isn't clear about what the definition is. In a game where resources means EVERYTHING and a huge pvp advantage can be gained from getting access to resources more easily and readily, and a game where you can only have housing by being a patron, it is the very definition of P2W.
I look at it this way. If your'e not paying anything to play a game - the developer has no reason to cater to you. It's like complaining you wanted two slices of cheese on your free cheeseburger at a grand opening of a hardware store. You're only there for the free shit anyway and never plan on supporting said hardware store. If you like the game but don't like the f2p model then pay for a sub or find another game. It really is that simple.
I agree with this in theory but in this case it's not that simple. What if I pay for patron status and get my labour points regenerating at a faster pace but don't buy LP pots? I'm paying to play so that meets your basic requirement that the dev should cater to me.
The guy next to me also pays for patron but then throws a ton of extra money at them for LP pots and gets to craft, loot, farm more than me, makes better gear faster, levels faster and as a direct result gains an advantage in PvP.
That is pay to win. The PvP element of the game makes it pay to win. If it were a purely PvE game I wouldn't call it pay to win because now he's just getting to end game content quicker, that wouldn't affect me. However, seeing as one day he might decide to bitch slap me around in his nice new uber gear, he is winning a fight with me because he paid.
It has been argued that this advantage is only temporary, but it's still an advantage.
This is where you choose to vote with your wallet. If you disagree with their model, don't play the game. I honestly don't mean to sound like a prick, but as a consumer those are the choices. You can complain about or disagree with their business model but it's ultimately up to you if you're willing to play the game or not regardless if you decide to pay any money at all or hundreds of dollars a month.
No, you're not being a prick at all mate. I completely agree with what you're saying. Yes I have the option to vote with my walletr if I'm not happy with the imbalance and just to be clear I'm not complaining, I'm just stating an opinion about one aspect of a game I've been playing. But that's not the question.
The question posed in the title is "is it P2W or P2 faster?". Regardless of my voting with my wallet, my opinion on the payment model and all of the above, I would call it pay to win. It's not as bad as a lot of other games that are blatantly pay to win, but that advantage, however shortlived, in a PvP environment, makes it pay to win, until they all catch up....
But you're absolutely right, if people aren't happy with it, then they have the right to click the uninstall button and not play.
Edit:
Something just occured to me as I was reading through this. Paying to Faster in this instance is exactly the same thing as paying to win, for the reasons above. Access to more LP's means you progress faster and get the better gear, and gain that PvP advantage sooner. Paying to Faster or Paying to Win, it doesn't matter which you call it, the end result is the same.
Then again a few months down the road it will all be irrelevant probably. Certainly for new players anyway. I do think it could have a big impact on how things develop immediately post launch though. As the poster above pointed out, let's see how it affects the big guilds.
It should be noted that the statement "The advantage is only temporary until everyone else (the non-whales) catch up" only applies if it's possible to catch up.
Any P2W whaling game that knows what it's doing will always raise the bar, and always make it so that only paying cash can actually get you that bar mathematically for the most part (IE, no amount of devotion and playing time will get you that gear in time when there's a labor point cap without paying more). This, combined with a competitive environment where if you snooze (don't keep up with the gear race) you lose (get owned in open world PvP), ensures that whale CONTINUE to have to pay to keep up with new content updates while also always having an advantage over those that don't pay as much, which encourages everyone to keep spending.
From what I've heard, Archeage is like this (the upgrade success rate enhancers are in the cash shop in other regions and you will not mathematically enhance your gear to that of the casher's level without shelling out yourself unless you're lucky enough to win the lottery twice over), although obviously the game's too new here to really test it first hand.
It should be noted that the statement "The advantage is only temporary until everyone else (the non-whales) catch up" only applies if it's possible to catch up.
Any P2W whaling game that knows what it's doing will always raise the bar, and always make it so that only paying cash can actually get you that bar mathematically for the most part (IE, no amount of devotion and playing time will get you that gear in time when there's a labor point cap without paying more). This, combined with a competitive environment where if you snooze (don't keep up with the gear race) you lose (get owned in open world PvP), ensures that whale CONTINUE to have to pay to keep up with new content updates while also always having an advantage over those that don't pay as much, which encourages everyone to keep spending.
From what I've heard, Archeage is like this (the upgrade success rate enhancers are in the cash shop in other regions and you will not mathematically enhance your gear to that of the casher's level without shelling out yourself unless you're lucky enough to win the lottery twice over), although obviously the game's too new here to really test it first hand.
This.
The idea behind "P2Faster" is a GW2 concept. In GW2, there is a progression plateau and it's relatively short. So, yeah, you get there today, I get there tomorrow, we all get there, everyone's happy and it's not P2W unless you consider a very small window of time where someone is ahead temporarily, P2W, I actually don' consider it that way. GW2 is not P2W in that regard.
Pay to "faster" implies that there is a "THERE" to get to. But in many MMOs, there is no "THERE" or it's so far away that it will take an incredibly long time to get "THERE".
So it becomes relative. Since nobody is actually "THERE" yet, all that matters is who is furthest along. Those players represent the moving target. And as long as the lead can be maintained, a patron not using the shop will never actually catch up.
This thread is a perfect example of why we continue to get WoW clone after WoW clone. The fact is, the MMO community just whines more and more and expects everything for free and does not want to work for anything. Seriously, the game is FREE, you can use in-game currency to buy Patron status and have access to EVERYTHING and yet many of you call this P2W. How can it be P2W when you can get everything a subscriber can?
I'll bet many of you complaining about this game being P2W play it for 4 to 8 hours a day and have no problem spending $12 to $15 for a lunch or a few beers with your friends yet buying a subscription for 30 days of gaming is considered being robbed to you.
P2W used to mean objects in the cash shop did more damage then items you found in the game which gave players spending money an unfair advantage that could not be matched. You guys have become so greedy and so entitled that now it means you have to spend 20 extra hours a month in the game to get the SAME features as a subscriber.
I have a real job/family and other interests besides gaming while many of you live with your mommy and have jobs where you wear a name tag and ask people if they want fries with that. I cant play for 8 hours a day like you can so should I complain that you are P2W because you can get to max level before me? Your argument that getting to max level faster is P2W is ridiculous. Getting to max level faster in NO way gives me any advantage over you that people with more time on their hands don't already have. Next you will be whining that there should be servers for people who play more than 2 hours a day so you dont have to play against them because they are P2W. Then you will want different servers created where guilds can not be more than 10 people because big guilds can work together and earn more money in-game and be P2W.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
it may be an "advantage" early on if you are rushing, but eventually it levels out - so the impatient can get there faster and techinically "win" for a short time before others catch up.
Is the "short time" short enough to get there, before the next content update hits? Otherwise, just when you catch up to the pay-2-faster crowd, they may leave you in the dust again.
This thread is a perfect example of why we continue to get WoW clone after WoW clone. The fact is, the MMO community just whines more and more and expects everything for free and does not want to work for anything. Seriously, the game is FREE, you can use in-game currency to buy Patron status and have access to EVERYTHING and yet many of you call this P2W. How can it be P2W when you can get everything a subscriber can?
I'll bet many of you complaining about this game being P2W play it for 4 to 8 hours a day and have no problem spending $12 to $15 for a lunch or a few beers with your friends yet buying a subscription for 30 days of gaming is considered being robbed to you.
P2W used to mean objects in the cash shop did more damage then items you found in the game which gave players spending money an unfair advantage that could not be matched. You guys have become so greedy and so entitled that now it means you have to spend 20 extra hours a month in the game to get the SAME features as a subscriber.
I have a real job/family and other interests besides gaming while many of you live with your mommy and have jobs where you wear a name tag and ask people if they want fries with that. I cant play for 8 hours a day like you can so should I complain that you are P2W because you can get to max level before me? Your argument that getting to max level faster is P2W is ridiculous. Getting to max level faster in NO way gives me any advantage over you that people with more time on their hands don't already have. Next you will be whining that there should be servers for people who play more than 2 hours a day so you dont have to play against them because they are P2W. Then you will want different servers created where guilds can not be more than 10 people because big guilds can work together and earn more money in-game and be P2W.
Well said. I have a F2P friend that is allready a patron, have a boat, have a big farm without spend any real money in-game.
AA is not Pay2Win, its Play2Win like all others mmorpgs. Its a matter how many hours you play, i only play around 3,4h a day, so i will never "win" (whatever the word means).
This thread is a perfect example of why we continue to get WoW clone after WoW clone. The fact is, the MMO community just whines more and more and expects everything for free and does not want to work for anything. Seriously, the game is FREE, you can use in-game currency to buy Patron status and have access to EVERYTHING and yet many of you call this P2W. How can it be P2W when you can get everything a subscriber can?
I'll bet many of you complaining about this game being P2W play it for 4 to 8 hours a day and have no problem spending $12 to $15 for a lunch or a few beers with your friends yet buying a subscription for 30 days of gaming is considered being robbed to you.
P2W used to mean objects in the cash shop did more damage then items you found in the game which gave players spending money an unfair advantage that could not be matched. You guys have become so greedy and so entitled that now it means you have to spend 20 extra hours a month in the game to get the SAME features as a subscriber.
I have a real job/family and other interests besides gaming while many of you live with your mommy and have jobs where you wear a name tag and ask people if they want fries with that. I cant play for 8 hours a day like you can so should I complain that you are P2W because you can get to max level before me? Your argument that getting to max level faster is P2W is ridiculous. Getting to max level faster in NO way gives me any advantage over you that people with more time on their hands don't already have. Next you will be whining that there should be servers for people who play more than 2 hours a day so you dont have to play against them because they are P2W. Then you will want different servers created where guilds can not be more than 10 people because big guilds can work together and earn more money in-game and be P2W.
First: you can't win a MMORPG. So, technically, there is no pay 2 win. Even if you could buy everything in the auction house for 100$ and get maximum level and the best equipment, it would technically be no pay2win.
However, there are small things. PvP for example. I pay money, I got thus just slightly better equipment, if we are equal in everything, I will win. I paid money, I will beat you. Pay2win, even for a tiny difference. That basically means that everything is pay2win that gives you any advantage whatsoever.
It's pay to win, progress in MMO = winning. But the fact that you can buy EVERYTHING with gold even a monthly subscription means it does not bother me. More F2P games should be like that if they are going to sell items for real money to progress.
Comments
For someone that clearly hasn't even played the game, you have strong views on it.
That aside.
I think you didn't get the point that I can play and earn, easily, the same as the paying customer in a very short time. This is progression through play, by definition.
If I do that, I am not spending real money to progress, I am playing the game to progress. This is play to achieve, with the option for the casual player to buy the same thing if they are very time poor.
Maybe you should log in and see what i am saying before we carry this chat on, because right now you seem to be operating on second hand information and bad received wisdom.
But if you are not even paying the money (to be a patron) then how are you even a customer of the game?
If you a not a customer why should Trion cater for you might I ask? They have already gave you an opportunity to earn your way even though you are NOT a customer at all. I think that's already pretty generous.
Patron status is a very, very basic requirement...
They are not exactly selling you epic gears through cash AFTER you subscribed here. If that was the case than that would been "pay 2 win"; however, it is not the case.
It's pretty much pay to craft as others have said. Without being able to own a farm you will take 2 or 3 times as long to get things unless you are willing to buy off AH at inflated prices. A patron could let you use their farm but I don't see many people doing that as they wouldn't be able to plant stuff.
Not to mention that the labor point regen is really nice for patrons.
You could just about do everything for free but it will take a major investment to get anywhere. I could care less about a house but a farm is a must unless you are going to try and farm publicly which is a real pain to find somewhere to hide your stuff.
Weird, because the freeb 'tenant' I have using my little farm in exchaage for their labour on my other holdings seems to be doing just fine.
They are doing trade runs, buying pots, and making gold just nicely it seems.
Actually in a guild a lot of patron does that as they don't have enough labor points to manage their own farms most of the time.
Labor pots have cooldowns.
Patron regen is faster but NOT so fast that you won't use it up very quickly.
You are totally ignoring the fact also that crafting consume HUGE amounts of labor - all I have to do is craft 1 set of armor and I will be down 1000+ labor easily. After I craft one or 2 sets of armor I can pretty much forget about working my farms because I won't have the labor points to do it.
Sharing farm usage and profits with your family is pretty much required if you want to use labor in any productive way.
God you lot make me laugh.. If you pay and get an advantage it is p2w .. Seriously??
That defines most of the MMO's for years as p2w
Rift - you sub and get an advantage, same with AO, SWTOR etc etc
Maybe the term should be FaM .. Free and moan
Made me chuckle, and I ofc agree.
Dear lord? 6 pages to answer a yes or no question?
I go away for a few hours and I come back to crazyness..
So, yes..I can play as a free player, and access everything a sub player can, its just going to take more time to do it...
is this the simple answer?
(Think about how this works in every other game where player A wants to race to cap, get the best gear and pwn noobs.. doesn't really change much when you think about it that way does it?)
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Basically yes.
There are no limitation of anything in this game like only patron status can use epic gears or anything like that (like how SWTOR did it).
And you can't buy gears with stats directly from cash shop.
I am seeing all kinds of redefining pay to win.....even to the point of saying you don't "win" in MMOs. Well, What do you call it when, you are facing off against another player(s) who hands you your ass? I'm calling that a "win". I mean, fine if you don't want to call it "winning" we can call it anything you want. So what do we call it now when a player or group of players in better gear, kills you and/or your group in PVP? What ever that definition is.......That's what some players in AA are paying to do.
To me, P2W is simple. When the dust settles in AA, and all the top dogs and top guilds are established. If the Cash Shop use was a big part of how they got there, then it's P2W. Otherwise, if non cash shop paying players and/or guilds are able to compete on even ground.....consistently, then I'll say, nope, not P2W.
and some of you are afraid that you would never win without cash shop.
So it's like FarmVille the?
I didn't buy a box your right so that gives them the right to push me to a sub for a monthly gain AND to make me hit the CS? Sorry but I disagree. If you want X money for generalized content development (don't forget this is already developed in another locations and this is almost pure money in both companies for the most parts because its just a port over and requires little development resource use). And your taking like there is no sub fee for AA? There is, so the only difference is the box.
No, you're not being a prick at all mate. I completely agree with what you're saying. Yes I have the option to vote with my walletr if I'm not happy with the imbalance and just to be clear I'm not complaining, I'm just stating an opinion about one aspect of a game I've been playing. But that's not the question.
The question posed in the title is "is it P2W or P2 faster?". Regardless of my voting with my wallet, my opinion on the payment model and all of the above, I would call it pay to win. It's not as bad as a lot of other games that are blatantly pay to win, but that advantage, however shortlived, in a PvP environment, makes it pay to win, until they all catch up....
But you're absolutely right, if people aren't happy with it, then they have the right to click the uninstall button and not play.
Edit:
Something just occured to me as I was reading through this. Paying to Faster in this instance is exactly the same thing as paying to win, for the reasons above. Access to more LP's means you progress faster and get the better gear, and gain that PvP advantage sooner. Paying to Faster or Paying to Win, it doesn't matter which you call it, the end result is the same.
Then again a few months down the road it will all be irrelevant probably. Certainly for new players anyway. I do think it could have a big impact on how things develop immediately post launch though. As the poster above pointed out, let's see how it affects the big guilds.
It should be noted that the statement "The advantage is only temporary until everyone else (the non-whales) catch up" only applies if it's possible to catch up.
Any P2W whaling game that knows what it's doing will always raise the bar, and always make it so that only paying cash can actually get you that bar mathematically for the most part (IE, no amount of devotion and playing time will get you that gear in time when there's a labor point cap without paying more). This, combined with a competitive environment where if you snooze (don't keep up with the gear race) you lose (get owned in open world PvP), ensures that whale CONTINUE to have to pay to keep up with new content updates while also always having an advantage over those that don't pay as much, which encourages everyone to keep spending.
From what I've heard, Archeage is like this (the upgrade success rate enhancers are in the cash shop in other regions and you will not mathematically enhance your gear to that of the casher's level without shelling out yourself unless you're lucky enough to win the lottery twice over), although obviously the game's too new here to really test it first hand.
This.
The idea behind "P2Faster" is a GW2 concept. In GW2, there is a progression plateau and it's relatively short. So, yeah, you get there today, I get there tomorrow, we all get there, everyone's happy and it's not P2W unless you consider a very small window of time where someone is ahead temporarily, P2W, I actually don' consider it that way. GW2 is not P2W in that regard.
Pay to "faster" implies that there is a "THERE" to get to. But in many MMOs, there is no "THERE" or it's so far away that it will take an incredibly long time to get "THERE".
So it becomes relative. Since nobody is actually "THERE" yet, all that matters is who is furthest along. Those players represent the moving target. And as long as the lead can be maintained, a patron not using the shop will never actually catch up.
And that does matter in a PVP game.
This thread is a perfect example of why we continue to get WoW clone after WoW clone. The fact is, the MMO community just whines more and more and expects everything for free and does not want to work for anything. Seriously, the game is FREE, you can use in-game currency to buy Patron status and have access to EVERYTHING and yet many of you call this P2W. How can it be P2W when you can get everything a subscriber can?
I'll bet many of you complaining about this game being P2W play it for 4 to 8 hours a day and have no problem spending $12 to $15 for a lunch or a few beers with your friends yet buying a subscription for 30 days of gaming is considered being robbed to you.
P2W used to mean objects in the cash shop did more damage then items you found in the game which gave players spending money an unfair advantage that could not be matched. You guys have become so greedy and so entitled that now it means you have to spend 20 extra hours a month in the game to get the SAME features as a subscriber.
I have a real job/family and other interests besides gaming while many of you live with your mommy and have jobs where you wear a name tag and ask people if they want fries with that. I cant play for 8 hours a day like you can so should I complain that you are P2W because you can get to max level before me? Your argument that getting to max level faster is P2W is ridiculous. Getting to max level faster in NO way gives me any advantage over you that people with more time on their hands don't already have. Next you will be whining that there should be servers for people who play more than 2 hours a day so you dont have to play against them because they are P2W. Then you will want different servers created where guilds can not be more than 10 people because big guilds can work together and earn more money in-game and be P2W.
Is the "short time" short enough to get there, before the next content update hits? Otherwise, just when you catch up to the pay-2-faster crowd, they may leave you in the dust again.
Well said. I have a F2P friend that is allready a patron, have a boat, have a big farm without spend any real money in-game.
AA is not Pay2Win, its Play2Win like all others mmorpgs. Its a matter how many hours you play, i only play around 3,4h a day, so i will never "win" (whatever the word means).
Nice rant +1
First: you can't win a MMORPG. So, technically, there is no pay 2 win. Even if you could buy everything in the auction house for 100$ and get maximum level and the best equipment, it would technically be no pay2win.
However, there are small things. PvP for example. I pay money, I got thus just slightly better equipment, if we are equal in everything, I will win. I paid money, I will beat you. Pay2win, even for a tiny difference. That basically means that everything is pay2win that gives you any advantage whatsoever.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
So let's start coming up with new names since we can't call it "P2W"
(Becasue appearantly, you can't "win" in MMOs)
P2AHBGTY (Always Have Better Gear Than You)
P2KEEAIPVP (Kick Everyone Else's Ass in PVP)
P2MPCS (Make Patrons Cancel Subscriptions)
P2MYC (Make You Cry)
P2DATGR (Dominate All The Game's Resources)
Since we can't really say that in any of the above situations, that someone is actually considered "winning"
Maybe there are other examples we can use.
Hell I'll even settle for P2GoneFishing, if by "Gonefishing" it means beat the shit out of everyone else in PVP.
TLDR; Semantics don't change what happens in the game.
Looking forward to: Crowfall / Lost Ark / Black Desert Mobile