Face it, "we" are no longer the target audience, even though most of "us" are willing to actually pay for our games. "We" just do not have the numbers to make developers think, "WoW-like money."
So, the genre changed into fast paced combat simulators with almost no downtime between slugfests, rare failures (dieing), little to no community activities, and solo everything, including "bosses." And it is making mega-millions.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
We all have our differences in several aspects that I consider small potato's. But were all here day after day, year after year WAITING for the same thing :
- Open world without zoning ( this has been done many times in the past, what had changed ).
My same position, but I have come to sad reality and I posted this same topic weeks back, that the developers have lost imagination, they are looking at WoW as the only pattern to follow and every single one of the games that have come out in the last few years have failed.
What are you talking about?
LoL, World of Tanks, PS2, Hearthstone, Destiny .... are all very different from WoW. Devs are not making wow-like (or old school) MMOs anymore. They are moving to other types of online games (which no doubt ... some will be included as MMOs ... like WoT).
Talking about he genre of MMOs in general, Widstar, Archeage etc are examples of what we are talking about. 40 man raids, hardcore only, PVP only games, that is old school mentality from the early 2000s
We all have our differences in several aspects that I consider small potato's. But were all here day after day, year after year WAITING for the same thing :
- A full size mmo.
I do think everyone here agree with you about this one. Far too many resent MMOs are small with invisible walls. It particularly hits the "explorers" hard.
- Slower leveling, that a community can be built.
I do agree in part with you here, the time it takes an average players to max out his/hers stats is way too fast. But then I also think it is time to get rid of levels altogether, maybe get something closer to the pen and paper game "Shadowrun" instead. Levels severely split up the community and the more levels a game have the harder it is to find other players to play with before the endgame.
- Harder challenging game that involves some cooperation with others now and then.
Yes and no. What we need is different MMOs with different challenge levels, some easy and some harder. If that isn't possible then have a "hard" serverset with better drops and tougher mobs for us that want something more challenging then the standard casual gamer.
- A life inside a game world, where everything isn't crammed together every five feet.
This really have to do with your first point, the reason everything is so close together is because so many games are so small today.
- Open world without zoning ( this has been done many times in the past, what had changed ).
The reason most games are zoned is because of graphics, you can't make a good looking game (well, unless you have an totally awesome team of coders) that is huge and zoneless that works on an average crap computer. Things are different if you aim for hardcore gamers with computers to back that up or can live with graphics that are dated .
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
My first idea is that developers aren't creating games for their customers rather their creating their own game.
Second would be developers and publishers are trying to play it safe so as to not lose money from the project.
Lastly, players could simply be asking for too much in terms of the "perfect" MMO.
These are just off the top of my head.
This and :
Companies use Accountants and Marketers that do research and charts......Cost vs. Return on investment.
They my VERY WELL find video games such as mmos are best kept to Box Sales and first month subs only....they may NOT CARE about retention as many of us think !!!
A developer starts with a proposed budget plan.They also weigh in on how much they think they can profit from said budget and try to work around both.I doubt aside from the VERY few ,any one of these devs sit there and say "we are going to make the greatest game ever,no matter the cost".
What happens instead is they sit there and delete any ideas that either cost too much to design or cost too much to maintain such as wide open housing zones and HD graphics.Sure there will be decisions on keeping a game playable without needing massively powerful machines but most of that can be worked around with a solid effort by the team.Instead they cut corners,use low end graphics and instances to make mapping and stability a breeze.
I absolutely can't stand when i see a low to mid level game that can't run on my older machine,i should be able to maintain 50 fps on most of these games.Instead what i get is sometimes 50 fps then i make one turn and it drops to 7-10 fps.Most of these games are put together very sloppy,sloppy coding,sloppy networking,sloppy mapping ect ect.
By rights there is not one single developer who can say they are truly holding a BETA test because what we see released is an onslaught of bugged games needing tons of patches right after release.This is disrespecting customers and actually against the law,you cannot sell any product you know is not fit for sale and i am 100% certain these developers know their products are not ready for sale.That is why they like using terms like free to play or crowd funding or any other kind of money draw that is not a straight out purchase.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Hmmm... I can't tell whether the OP's trolling or not. =/
He didn't toss full PvP and full corpse looting onto the list though...
As for the list, I don't really care about most of those features.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
A full size MMO - In what aspect? Seriously, most MMOs are pretty good "size". The problem is that due to the speed in which we consume content, the game seems smaller.
Slower leveling: Thanks, but no thanks. While I'll agree that leveling does need to be slowed down, it doesn't need to be at a crawl. I don't want to spend Vanilla EQ time trying to get through a "hell level", but I don't want to hit 85 in 2-weekends.
Harder, challenging game: Yes please. Give me my Dark Souls type of difficulty!! Also give me my group content. If I wanted to solo 1 to cap, I'd play a single player console game.
Life inside the world: Judging by what you said in the second part of your statement, I assume you meant you want the world to feel alive. For this, I can agree. I think things such as Storybricks and smarter AI can accomplish this.
Open World: Yes and no. While I want the open world to be without zoning/instances, I have absolutely no issue with Dungeons and Raids as instances.
However, all of these are a moot point if the game can't get me in anyways. If my character is the same as everyone else, then the game isn't for me. I want customization, from the color of my shoes to the types of abilities I have.
Raquelis in various games Played: Everything Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6 Wants: The World Anticipating:Everquest NextCrowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Lets just face it, we all want the game that delete5230 wants. So we can all stop discussing features we find enjoyable, we just need to ask our gaming god, delete5230.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane. And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes. Hurt - Wars
People want big worlds, but want instant travel , they want immersion but they don't want to explore or read Lore (quests and books) they want great pvp but they want huge ongoing power increases without scaling. If this rings a bell, then you've got an issue, what you want is what you don't want?!?
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
The issue is that players looking for what the OP listed do not have a game developed for them anymore. These are rpg lovers. Immersion is paramount. Zoning breaks immersion. Content is there to be explored and not engineered down to the last detail to fit into a leveling path and progression. These games are ultra rare now.
The fact is the the majority of gamers today have never even played a game like that. This is why you see posters in this very thread saying they are satisfied with current clone style mmo ... they know no different. They do not base their expectations of an mmorpg against pnp role playing, muds and video game rpg experience. They expect what has been polished into an entirely new genre totally disconnected from the original mmorpgs.
Only some of us actually want true virtual worlds and understand what it takes to make one. You look outside into the real world, it's real history and the fantasy generated by it's actual real wonders that spawn the novels and stories we want to recreate in a video game ... then you emulate it in a game as if it were real. This idea died a decade ago. It is only starting to reemerge but only a small percentage of us will participate. It takes maturity and imagination which is lacking in most video game players.
Video game players are escapists. They abandon all real world morals and social connections when entering a game. They simply cannot play a role playing game with that attitude. The open world virtual reality wanted by a core audience of mmorpg players demands the player to enter that world with all the moral and social responsibilities they have in real life or the concept fails. Even if they want to play a criminal it is still based within the concept of the game. Only a small audience will ever flourish within a game driven purely by community building if the proper tools are created for them to succeed.
Mmorpgs started niche and will only ever succeed as niche. These type of players want a game that isn't a rotating door trying to attract any player with a wallet.
A full size MMO - In what aspect? Seriously, most MMOs are pretty good "size". The problem is that due to the speed in which we consume content, the game seems smaller.
Slower leveling: Thanks, but no thanks. While I'll agree that leveling does need to be slowed down, it doesn't need to be at a crawl. I don't want to spend Vanilla EQ time trying to get through a "hell level", but I don't want to hit 85 in 2-weekends.
Harder, challenging game: Yes please. Give me my Dark Souls type of difficulty!! Also give me my group content. If I wanted to solo 1 to cap, I'd play a single player console game.
Life inside the world: Judging by what you said in the second part of your statement, I assume you meant you want the world to feel alive. For this, I can agree. I think things such as Storybricks and smarter AI can accomplish this.
Open World: Yes and no. While I want the open world to be without zoning/instances, I have absolutely no issue with Dungeons and Raids as instances.
However, all of these are a moot point if the game can't get me in anyways. If my character is the same as everyone else, then the game isn't for me. I want customization, from the color of my shoes to the types of abilities I have.
I pretty much agree. However..
Slower leveling: I've yet to play an MMO with too slow leveling. I have played many with too fast.
Also, emphasize crafting a lot. Make lots of specializations and branches, so that not everyone can craft everything. Player driven economy is one of the most important features in these games.
Lets just face it, we all want the game that delete5230 wants. So we can all stop discussing features we find enjoyable, we just need to ask our gaming god, delete5230.
Originally posted by Bladestrom People want big worlds, but want instant travel , they want immersion but they don't want to explore or read Lore (quests and books) they want great pvp but they want huge ongoing power increases without scaling. If this rings a bell, then you've got an issue, what you want is what you don't want?!?
You are talking about the players who do not want an open and explorable world. There are many players who can handle reading and the time it takes to discover things ... and they WANT a certain type of game that doesn't try to cater to everyone.
They DO NOT want players who can't handle their game. It is odd that if someone hates car driving games they simply do not play them but so many people apparently expect every mmo bend to their demands.
A core mmorpg audience simply wants their game back and is more than happy to annoy those trying to ruin their game concept.
Comments
Face it, "we" are no longer the target audience, even though most of "us" are willing to actually pay for our games. "We" just do not have the numbers to make developers think, "WoW-like money."
So, the genre changed into fast paced combat simulators with almost no downtime between slugfests, rare failures (dieing), little to no community activities, and solo everything, including "bosses." And it is making mega-millions.
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
I'm not waiting for some idealized future mmo
zoning doesn't bother me
EQ2 fan sites
Talking about he genre of MMOs in general, Widstar, Archeage etc are examples of what we are talking about. 40 man raids, hardcore only, PVP only games, that is old school mentality from the early 2000s
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
OP, I agree with you on all points but it seems to me that you want vanilla WoW (so do I). Unfortunately, it's not coming back.
Well I'm playing Vanilla WOW right now
.....Along with 4 co workers were having a blast !.....Deadmines tonight !
We aren't looking for the same MMO.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Am I the only one who "gets it" why there are invisible walls?
Would you have more fun falling off of the game world <o> what the hell ....
This and :
Companies use Accountants and Marketers that do research and charts......Cost vs. Return on investment.
They my VERY WELL find video games such as mmos are best kept to Box Sales and first month subs only....they may NOT CARE about retention as many of us think !!!
This whole thread should just end with a rebuttal to the title.
No we aren't.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
Thank you for setting me straight
........I'll PayPal you a pack of Nestle Crunch bars..........
I like them
Do you guys have a count on how many of you there are? Are you guys the same ones as the "sandbox OWPvP" people or are you a different group?
Wildstar tried to go after a demographic that barely exists. Most MMO's (products in general) aren't created for imaginary people.
VERY simple reason >> $$$$$$
A developer starts with a proposed budget plan.They also weigh in on how much they think they can profit from said budget and try to work around both.I doubt aside from the VERY few ,any one of these devs sit there and say "we are going to make the greatest game ever,no matter the cost".
What happens instead is they sit there and delete any ideas that either cost too much to design or cost too much to maintain such as wide open housing zones and HD graphics.Sure there will be decisions on keeping a game playable without needing massively powerful machines but most of that can be worked around with a solid effort by the team.Instead they cut corners,use low end graphics and instances to make mapping and stability a breeze.
I absolutely can't stand when i see a low to mid level game that can't run on my older machine,i should be able to maintain 50 fps on most of these games.Instead what i get is sometimes 50 fps then i make one turn and it drops to 7-10 fps.Most of these games are put together very sloppy,sloppy coding,sloppy networking,sloppy mapping ect ect.
By rights there is not one single developer who can say they are truly holding a BETA test because what we see released is an onslaught of bugged games needing tons of patches right after release.This is disrespecting customers and actually against the law,you cannot sell any product you know is not fit for sale and i am 100% certain these developers know their products are not ready for sale.That is why they like using terms like free to play or crowd funding or any other kind of money draw that is not a straight out purchase.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Hmmm... I can't tell whether the OP's trolling or not. =/
He didn't toss full PvP and full corpse looting onto the list though...
As for the list, I don't really care about most of those features.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
Why doesn't every candy maker just stick to nestle crunch bars then? You know, since everybody likes them.
[disclaimer: I don't actually like them all that much. Just making a point]
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
A full size MMO - In what aspect? Seriously, most MMOs are pretty good "size". The problem is that due to the speed in which we consume content, the game seems smaller.
Slower leveling: Thanks, but no thanks. While I'll agree that leveling does need to be slowed down, it doesn't need to be at a crawl. I don't want to spend Vanilla EQ time trying to get through a "hell level", but I don't want to hit 85 in 2-weekends.
Harder, challenging game: Yes please. Give me my Dark Souls type of difficulty!! Also give me my group content. If I wanted to solo 1 to cap, I'd play a single player console game.
Life inside the world: Judging by what you said in the second part of your statement, I assume you meant you want the world to feel alive. For this, I can agree. I think things such as Storybricks and smarter AI can accomplish this.
Open World: Yes and no. While I want the open world to be without zoning/instances, I have absolutely no issue with Dungeons and Raids as instances.
However, all of these are a moot point if the game can't get me in anyways. If my character is the same as everyone else, then the game isn't for me. I want customization, from the color of my shoes to the types of abilities I have.
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Nioh 2, Civ6
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall, Pantheon, Elden Ring
Lets just face it, we all want the game that delete5230 wants. So we can all stop discussing features we find enjoyable, we just need to ask our gaming god, delete5230.
I can fly higher than an aeroplane.
And I have the voice of a thousand hurricanes.
Hurt - Wars
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
We are not all looking for the same thing.
The issue is that players looking for what the OP listed do not have a game developed for them anymore. These are rpg lovers. Immersion is paramount. Zoning breaks immersion. Content is there to be explored and not engineered down to the last detail to fit into a leveling path and progression. These games are ultra rare now.
The fact is the the majority of gamers today have never even played a game like that. This is why you see posters in this very thread saying they are satisfied with current clone style mmo ... they know no different. They do not base their expectations of an mmorpg against pnp role playing, muds and video game rpg experience. They expect what has been polished into an entirely new genre totally disconnected from the original mmorpgs.
Only some of us actually want true virtual worlds and understand what it takes to make one. You look outside into the real world, it's real history and the fantasy generated by it's actual real wonders that spawn the novels and stories we want to recreate in a video game ... then you emulate it in a game as if it were real. This idea died a decade ago. It is only starting to reemerge but only a small percentage of us will participate. It takes maturity and imagination which is lacking in most video game players.
Video game players are escapists. They abandon all real world morals and social connections when entering a game. They simply cannot play a role playing game with that attitude. The open world virtual reality wanted by a core audience of mmorpg players demands the player to enter that world with all the moral and social responsibilities they have in real life or the concept fails. Even if they want to play a criminal it is still based within the concept of the game. Only a small audience will ever flourish within a game driven purely by community building if the proper tools are created for them to succeed.
Mmorpgs started niche and will only ever succeed as niche. These type of players want a game that isn't a rotating door trying to attract any player with a wallet.
You stay sassy!
I pretty much agree. However..
Slower leveling: I've yet to play an MMO with too slow leveling. I have played many with too fast.
Also, emphasize crafting a lot. Make lots of specializations and branches, so that not everyone can craft everything. Player driven economy is one of the most important features in these games.
You don't like me do you ?
You are talking about the players who do not want an open and explorable world. There are many players who can handle reading and the time it takes to discover things ... and they WANT a certain type of game that doesn't try to cater to everyone.
They DO NOT want players who can't handle their game. It is odd that if someone hates car driving games they simply do not play them but so many people apparently expect every mmo bend to their demands.
A core mmorpg audience simply wants their game back and is more than happy to annoy those trying to ruin their game concept.
You stay sassy!