However it seems many not all, feel anti social behavior with newer players is at fault. This is totally untrue !
Game design is at fault - Developers are under complete control of how an mmo can be played. This is not to say that developers can't give back freedom, BUT THEY CHOSE TO TAKE IT AWAY !
Now we have :
- They will tell the story for the player.
- They will set groups for you ( Dungeon finders and dynamic events ).
- They control the extreme easy, hard and everything in between.
- They will set the path of progression.
Players will follow what's handed them !
Some, can over ride developers obstacles. But let me ask you, how can you over come.
1) Faster leveling, and out leveling ?
2) Friends and Guild mates following game design and go off on there own, LFD with strangers and soloing dynamic events ?
3) I'm on part 47 and your on part 61 of the story line ?
4) I'm at quest hub 27-30, your at quest hub 33-36 ?
I'll be honest, I really don't see how people can keep playable friends in games like Elders Scrolls Online with a mega server. And FF14 with 250 part storyline that HAS TO BE DONE, along with constant in your face Dynamic events. Or RIFT where you move to an entirely new zone every 4 levels.
Playable friends is the key word !
The question you're not asking yourself (and which you definitely should ask yourself) is:
Why did the developers decide to take away the freedom?
More important than what the developers did, is to know the answer to why they did it.
The developers didn't do it randomly. They did it on purpose. What is the purpose? That's all the help I will give you.
By the way, FF14 already gave the solution to all your problems with their level sync feature. It can be applied to fix every issue you mentioned in your post.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
I don't think we can ever get community back until people start to look at these games as roleplaying games again. If it is just about combat--and only about combat--there's really no point in community beyond a matchmaking service.
You need to have interpersonal, character-driven drama and player-acted plot lines to justify the community which will enact them. For if there is nothing else in the game but machine-driven combat all the time...there's really no point to a vibrant community.
Yeah .. there is no point to a community beyond matchmaking since a lot of players are nothing but about combat, loot and how those are dressed up.
Originally posted by EnbysraHorizontal progression can have progression.
Horizontal design is direction-less, you cannot progress when there is no pre-determined "end", you have nothing to progress towards, thus there cannot be a progression.
Originally posted by Enbysra"I do agree with horizontal progression being about "building options," as specifically "different options or effects" than what you have at any given point... such as tools (utilities), customizing combinations perhaps, or customizing skills (as glyphs work in tera), customizing the character's "meta" skill system."
You are fall under category:
Originally posted by GdemamiOften made mistakes:1) Interchanging terms design and feature. 2) False premise that design is determined by features - ie. type of character progression, FFAPVP, instances, etc.
Learn the difference between a design and feature, only after that you can start making any sense.
Yes, encourage players to use social panels, give a good tutorial about this subject. and developer focuse on making it work.
Back around Rift came out when it was a sub base mmo, there was no cross realm finders, there was looking for Dungeon was not use as much, then people spamming for groups. Over time become less and less social, became worst for new people trying find a group with people at the top not willing to go down as there is noting in for them, and people trying to talk to one other but if not in this gear you can't come.
Then we got GW2 was dungeon was base on going out and talking to people and find a group, when you did find a group was the complain this dungeon to hard or this path to hard so you end up not going to the dungeon you need to go too. Even got people just end up leaving after dieing 1 time or 2 times, finding someone new to replace for a dungeon no one want to do was even harder with out looking for dungeon finder.
Is all fine and all with out cross real finder, or no looking for dungeon, but if any mmo make the game play worst when there more and easyer reward to go to this dungeon then the other then they will have problem overtime.
Hey AC2 encourage people to group up and level, didn't go to well as was only way to level fast. it was more force on then wanted too.
We know what horizontal progression is, there are games that are well known tfs do it well gw1,eve,gw2). There are infinite variations of horizontal models and I'm sure your could be made to work as well - all that is needed are devs with a bit more vision than tier x+1 gives x% power increase.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
I don't think quests are very helpful for communities.
Everquest had almost no quests (yes the name is ironic), and that's part of the reason it was so easy to make groups, all you did was go kill mobs. And it was fun.
A grinding game lends itself much more to community building. In EQ you had lvl zones, and people just entered the zone, and everyone wh owas LFG got a group.
Also, there weren't any instances early on, dungeons (up till LDON) were all LIVE dungeons like in Vanguard, you didn't enter some "instance" to go to a dungeon, the dungeon was there in the real world. So people who wanted to group, just walked in and grouped.
In EQ everyone mostly wanted XP 99% of the time, so you didn't have to coordinate for quests, you just killed stuff together, didn't matter what. 1% of the time we did coordinate is when someone wanted a specific item, but most people just wanted XP.
The fact the game was very dangerous and you have the chance to lose your corpse and lose your items, combined with the fact some classes couldn't solo a single mob, meant you were forced to group.
.
Since many people mentioned GW1, this is the second or third game I played after EQ I think, compared to EQ, Guild Wars had no community, the fact so many of the stuff was instanced and done for you by the game meant community in GW was pretty much non-existent.
Everquest had almost no quests (yes the name is ironic), and that's part of the reason it was so easy to make groups, all you did was go kill mobs. And it was fun.
May be fun for you .. .but not for me .. and many others.
And even if you discount all the horrible dead time, waiting, camping, loot drama, killing the same static spawn again and again is not fun.
I would much rather have fun combat and no groups.
Socializing and community is not quite the same thing. Many single player games has a community of dedicated players, as an example Dragon Age or Oblivion/Skyrim. Socializing does help building communities but it is not mandatory.
Anyways, about socializing.. Different players want different things, some like to socialize more than others. I do not buy that people who want to socialize will just do that even in asocial games. The game defines the environment and how the form socializing can take. Players will seek the games that fit their preferences, and so people who like to socialize much, WILL weigh that high. Games that offers or require socializing will attract these players more, provided they offer a relative same quality in other areas.
Originally posted by delete5230 Lots of good stuff here.However it seems many not all, feel anti social behavior with newer players is at fault. This is totally untrue !Game design is at fault - Developers are under complete control of how an mmo can be played. This is not to say that developers can't give back freedom, BUT THEY CHOSE TO TAKE IT AWAY !
I have to ask, can you NOT chat/be sociable in today's MMOs due to mechanics/game design?
Some situations and mechanics make it more difficult, but there are still ways in which to socialize, if the other players are willing.
Once MMOs lack a chatbox, then I will agree with your "game design is at fault" stance.
However, if you are one of the players that can not be social unless you are forced to (like forced grouping), then you may believe this to be true. Is this the case?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse. - FARGIN_WAR
Originally posted by delete5230 Lots of good stuff here.
However it seems many not all, feel anti social behavior with newer players is at fault. This is totally untrue !
Game design is at fault - Developers are under complete control of how an mmo can be played. This is not to say that developers can't give back freedom, BUT THEY CHOSE TO TAKE IT AWAY !
I have to ask, can you NOT chat/be sociable in today's MMOs due to mechanics/game design?
Some situations and mechanics make it more difficult, but there are still ways in which to socialize, if the other players are willing.
Once MMOs lack a chatbox, then I will agree with your "game design is at fault" stance.
However, if you are one of the players that can not be social unless you are forced to (like forced grouping), then you may believe this to be true. Is this the case?
But socializing is much more than being able to chat. It is also about playing the game with others, beeing influenced by others, trading, pvp, coop, even watching another player or tossing a buff to someone running by.. All interaction with other players. And that is made possible or limited by game fesign.
Just have a look at games like Anarchy Online. You could do much more if you socialised. Buffs of other profs could mean the one point you needed to squeeze that weapon or imp into your setup, or tackle a harder mob/mission. You behaved like the last human being you would earn notoriety and noone would buff you, or team up, hampering your gameplay. You talked to each other during downtimes and fomred bonds, getting to know people and finding buffs easier. Players were more interdependend, but you still could solo stuff, teamplay just brought you more boom for your bang.
Nowadays you usually just have to push the LFD-button, go in, rush through and do not even talk. Buffs are mostly self-buffs, or aura like buffs. Trading is done by auction house. All in all everything is done to not have to communicate with others. Due to no downtimes communication is even more of an hindrance than a bonus. So game desing does its part in reducing player interaction.
Originally posted by kjempff Originally posted by AlBQuirkyOriginally posted by delete5230Lots of good stuff here.However it seems many not all, feel anti social behavior with newer players is at fault. This is totally untrue !Game design is at fault - Developers are under complete control of how an mmo can be played. This is not to say that developers can't give back freedom, BUT THEY CHOSE TO TAKE IT AWAY !
I have to ask, can you NOT chat/be sociable in today's MMOs due to mechanics/game design?Some situations and mechanics make it more difficult, but there are still ways in which to socialize, if the other players are willing.Once MMOs lack a chatbox, then I will agree with your "game design is at fault" stance.However, if you are one of the players that can not be social unless you are forced to (like forced grouping), then you may believe this to be true. Is this the case?But socializing is much more than being able to chat. It is also about playing the game with others, beeing influenced by others, trading, pvp, coop, even watching another player or tossing a buff to someone running by.. All interaction with other players. And that is made possible or limited by game fesign.
All that still occurs in every game. When playing wow or swtor, it is rare that someone doesn't do a drive by buff, and people regularly jump in to help on a mob once I've tagged it.
Co-op, trading, all still there in great supply.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The developers didn't get rid of community... the players did.
And unless you live under a rock, you will realize that people in general are less social as a whole. Do you know everyone on your street? Do you actually converse with your neighbors? Do you talk with your co-workers other than to conduct business? Chat with the people who work at the stores you shop in? Have real tangible friends and not just a list of names on some friends list?
If you don't care to interact with the people who are around you in real life... why would you care to do so online?
Community is dead because the players don't care to have one...
Just think about it... people clamor about having player housing because they want to insulate themselves from the rest of the world and other players. They like the idea of isolation, in real life and in their virtual one. Until the players decide they want to interact with others, no amount of game design is going to change that.
I don't know about that. every modern MMO i play have plenty of community. Maybe because i love to socialize on my own terms and not to be forced is that reason why i don't feel that community needs to be 'brought back'. it never left.
1) Much LARGER Zones that cover a wider range of levels.
When you first enter a zone, you should be able to take ALL the quest. That way when you see someone doing something you can play with them ( no two quest hubs ).
Sounds good but not something ground breaking
2) Slow leveling.
More people in your level range to make friends with. Gaining levels every hour causes friends to out level each other. This would greatly help Guilds to play together too.
No lvling at all, no lvl's also.
3) Do away with dynamic events.
This is like poison to mmos....No one talks !
I would love to see a mix of Rift / GW2 events
4) Make the game harder with some easy content for when you feel like soloing.
Games are hard already if you like them to be. Go raid HC-Mythic etc modes on time, not after 6 months of nerfing.
5) No Looking for Dungeon or cross realm finders.
Yes, encourage players to use social panels, give a good tutorial about this subject. and developer focuse on making it work.
Very old argument. Community already voted YES to LFG / LFR etc etc
6) No story lines and videos.
Were talking about mmos not single player games, if you like 10 min videos then play off line games.
If this is against to gameplay by cutting budget of it, then i would say remove them. Else not, despite i don't care about them.
7) Seamless worlds.
This helps.
Its the only way imho
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1 Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
The ppl online now are very different from 15 or even 10 years ago, the internet and games are often about drama and sensationalism now, the media thrives on controversy, ppl love conflict, the atmosphere is now of instant gratification, it has to be new and ppl are not even willing to stay with a game for longer than a year anymore. Everything has to happen fast for some ppl. It's extremely hard for regular mmo that don't use forced grouping or slow leveling not to end up with 90% of the players being instant gratification ppl [mod edit]
The ppl online now are very different from 15 or even 10 years ago, the internet and games are often about drama and sensationalism now, the media thrives on controversy, ppl love conflict, the atmosphere is now of instant gratification, it has to be new and ppl are not even willing to stay with a game for longer than a year anymore. Everything has to happen fast for some ppl. It's extremely hard for regular mmo that don't use forced grouping or slow leveling not to end up with 90% of the players being instant gratification ppl
[mod edit]
Yes because forcing people to group is sure way to encourage socializing.
The question you're not asking yourself (and which you definitely should ask yourself) is:
Why did the developers decide to take away the freedom?
More important than what the developers did, is to know the answer to why they did it.
The developers didn't do it randomly. They did it on purpose. What is the purpose? That's all the help I will give you.
They "took away freedom" due to not understanding MMORPG design 101. And it is as simple as that. Even if the motivation was $, they should have even more so knew exactly what I am about to present here...
The most basic truth in designing an MMORPG is that "players' freedoms are an illusion."
Players only have as much "freedom" as can even be placed into a game as options and whatever they can dream up to do with those options.
Even in Paper & Dice Tabletop RPGs, the Game Master (this is assuming you have a good Game Master) fully controls the storyline... ie, players have no freedom.
If players succeed, the Game Master has a storyline they follow.
If players fail, the Game Master has a storyline they follow.
If the players completely go in an unforeseen direction, the Game Master will be able to get the players back to said storyline.
All of these things can be recognized as the "Game Master" being the "MMORPG World" designed by a game company / developer. Even in the unforeseen scenario... it is pretty difficuult to simply "fall out of the world" (this is, although I have played some games where this glitch did in fact occur).
So the reason you do not at least get the "illusion of freedom," is because they simply did not take their concept and rework it to appear in a manner any of these "on the rails themeparks" could in fact be turned into... having far better results if they did mind you.
Yes, it is the professionals who do not understand MMORPG design 101. A statement which makes perfect sense and can definitely withstand closer inspection.
Of course you couldn't be more wrong. But if people here truly understood MMORPG design 101, there would be no threads like this to amuse those who understand. Keep up the good work.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Comments
That would need to assume there is unlimited demand, which there is not.
No business would ever fail if customers followed what is handed to them.
The question you're not asking yourself (and which you definitely should ask yourself) is:
Why did the developers decide to take away the freedom?
More important than what the developers did, is to know the answer to why they did it.
The developers didn't do it randomly. They did it on purpose. What is the purpose? That's all the help I will give you.
By the way, FF14 already gave the solution to all your problems with their level sync feature. It can be applied to fix every issue you mentioned in your post.
Yeah .. there is no point to a community beyond matchmaking since a lot of players are nothing but about combat, loot and how those are dressed up.
Clever but no.
Anyone can see there was design in the earlier MMO's that promoted community which are simply missing in the WoW generation of MMO's.
Horizontal design is direction-less, you cannot progress when there is no pre-determined "end", you have nothing to progress towards, thus there cannot be a progression.
You are fall under category:
Learn the difference between a design and feature, only after that you can start making any sense.
Then there is no point in debate when you just keep misusing and throwing random terms around without any thought and ignore what other say.
Enjoy yourself!
/shrugs
Back around Rift came out when it was a sub base mmo, there was no cross realm finders, there was looking for Dungeon was not use as much, then people spamming for groups. Over time become less and less social, became worst for new people trying find a group with people at the top not willing to go down as there is noting in for them, and people trying to talk to one other but if not in this gear you can't come.
Then we got GW2 was dungeon was base on going out and talking to people and find a group, when you did find a group was the complain this dungeon to hard or this path to hard so you end up not going to the dungeon you need to go too. Even got people just end up leaving after dieing 1 time or 2 times, finding someone new to replace for a dungeon no one want to do was even harder with out looking for dungeon finder.
Is all fine and all with out cross real finder, or no looking for dungeon, but if any mmo make the game play worst when there more and easyer reward to go to this dungeon then the other then they will have problem overtime.
Hey AC2 encourage people to group up and level, didn't go to well as was only way to level fast. it was more force on then wanted too.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
I don't think quests are very helpful for communities.
Everquest had almost no quests (yes the name is ironic), and that's part of the reason it was so easy to make groups, all you did was go kill mobs. And it was fun.
A grinding game lends itself much more to community building. In EQ you had lvl zones, and people just entered the zone, and everyone wh owas LFG got a group.
Also, there weren't any instances early on, dungeons (up till LDON) were all LIVE dungeons like in Vanguard, you didn't enter some "instance" to go to a dungeon, the dungeon was there in the real world. So people who wanted to group, just walked in and grouped.
In EQ everyone mostly wanted XP 99% of the time, so you didn't have to coordinate for quests, you just killed stuff together, didn't matter what. 1% of the time we did coordinate is when someone wanted a specific item, but most people just wanted XP.
The fact the game was very dangerous and you have the chance to lose your corpse and lose your items, combined with the fact some classes couldn't solo a single mob, meant you were forced to group.
.
Since many people mentioned GW1, this is the second or third game I played after EQ I think, compared to EQ, Guild Wars had no community, the fact so many of the stuff was instanced and done for you by the game meant community in GW was pretty much non-existent.
May be fun for you .. .but not for me .. and many others.
And even if you discount all the horrible dead time, waiting, camping, loot drama, killing the same static spawn again and again is not fun.
I would much rather have fun combat and no groups.
Socializing and community is not quite the same thing. Many single player games has a community of dedicated players, as an example Dragon Age or Oblivion/Skyrim. Socializing does help building communities but it is not mandatory.
Anyways, about socializing.. Different players want different things, some like to socialize more than others. I do not buy that people who want to socialize will just do that even in asocial games. The game defines the environment and how the form socializing can take. Players will seek the games that fit their preferences, and so people who like to socialize much, WILL weigh that high. Games that offers or require socializing will attract these players more, provided they offer a relative same quality in other areas.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Some situations and mechanics make it more difficult, but there are still ways in which to socialize, if the other players are willing.
Once MMOs lack a chatbox, then I will agree with your "game design is at fault" stance.
However, if you are one of the players that can not be social unless you are forced to (like forced grouping), then you may believe this to be true. Is this the case?
- Al
Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.- FARGIN_WAR
If you would be focusing on what you liked in whatever game instead of what you do not like... we would have a thriving community.
Meh ... some one probably gonna say "WE GOTTA PROTEST, HUH!!!!"
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
But socializing is much more than being able to chat. It is also about playing the game with others, beeing influenced by others, trading, pvp, coop, even watching another player or tossing a buff to someone running by.. All interaction with other players. And that is made possible or limited by game fesign.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
Just have a look at games like Anarchy Online. You could do much more if you socialised. Buffs of other profs could mean the one point you needed to squeeze that weapon or imp into your setup, or tackle a harder mob/mission. You behaved like the last human being you would earn notoriety and noone would buff you, or team up, hampering your gameplay. You talked to each other during downtimes and fomred bonds, getting to know people and finding buffs easier. Players were more interdependend, but you still could solo stuff, teamplay just brought you more boom for your bang.
Nowadays you usually just have to push the LFD-button, go in, rush through and do not even talk. Buffs are mostly self-buffs, or aura like buffs. Trading is done by auction house. All in all everything is done to not have to communicate with others. Due to no downtimes communication is even more of an hindrance than a bonus. So game desing does its part in reducing player interaction.
But socializing is much more than being able to chat. It is also about playing the game with others, beeing influenced by others, trading, pvp, coop, even watching another player or tossing a buff to someone running by.. All interaction with other players. And that is made possible or limited by game fesign.
All that still occurs in every game. When playing wow or swtor, it is rare that someone doesn't do a drive by buff, and people regularly jump in to help on a mob once I've tagged it.
Co-op, trading, all still there in great supply.
I don't know about that. every modern MMO i play have plenty of community. Maybe because i love to socialize on my own terms and not to be forced is that reason why i don't feel that community needs to be 'brought back'. it never left.
All Time Favorites: EQ1, WoW, EvE, GW1
Playing Now: WoW, ESO, GW2
I think people and games both changed.
The ppl online now are very different from 15 or even 10 years ago, the internet and games are often about drama and sensationalism now, the media thrives on controversy, ppl love conflict, the atmosphere is now of instant gratification, it has to be new and ppl are not even willing to stay with a game for longer than a year anymore. Everything has to happen fast for some ppl. It's extremely hard for regular mmo that don't use forced grouping or slow leveling not to end up with 90% of the players being instant gratification ppl [mod edit]
Yes because forcing people to group is sure way to encourage socializing.
Yes, it is the professionals who do not understand MMORPG design 101. A statement which makes perfect sense and can definitely withstand closer inspection.
Of course you couldn't be more wrong. But if people here truly understood MMORPG design 101, there would be no threads like this to amuse those who understand. Keep up the good work.