Originally posted by Nanfoodle What I dont get is this. People chucking tones of money at crowd funded games and only 30% of them ever get released. Here is a game with an option cash shop you can chose to support on a game you know you will get a chance to play and people are upset. When did supporting a company and game you like become a bad thing? When the money you get to use to support them turns into a fun server event.
You are exactly the sort of naieve sucker these companies love and make millions from.
The devs serve up an unfinished pile of garbage which is full of P2W lock boxes, pay-gates for fun content and every other nickle and dime strategy under the sun and you smile and ask for more.
These are not games that are designed to be a fun and complete experience. They are simply a way to cash in and make a quick buck off of morons.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle What I dont get is this. People chucking tones of money at crowd funded games and only 30% of them ever get released. Here is a game with an option cash shop you can chose to support on a game you know you will get a chance to play and people are upset. When did supporting a company and game you like become a bad thing? When the money you get to use to support them turns into a fun server event.
You are exactly the sort of naieve sucker these companies love and make millions from.
The devs serve up an unfinished pile of garbage which is full of P2W lock boxes, pay-gates for fun content and every other nickle and dime strategy under the sun and you smile and ask for more.
These are not games that are designed to be a fun and complete experience. They are simply a way to cash in and make a quick buck off of morons.
I would agree with you but for one fact, I have been MMOing for 16 years now and I have played most triple A launches. In that time I can only think of 1 MMO that launched smooth, had end game and the quest were fully flushed out. People talk like MMOs are crappier now then they were in the past, when in fact that have 10 times more systems and launch just as bugged as they always have. All MMOs takes 3-6 months after launch to get this smoothed out and as am long time gamer, Im ok with that.
All of this is why I've completely lost hope in SOE. Particularly, in Dave Georgeson and Smed. They've simply gotten to a point in making their games so incredibly Cash Shop focused, with full focus on catering to the people with the fattest wallets.
The design of the airdrops is the exact same concept as a RNG lockbox that so many F2P games (the cheesier ones) have. Real life money buys you a chance at items you want in your purchase. The only thing they did here was add an additional layer of RNG, in that you might be killed before getting the item you paid real life cash for, as well as someone potentially killing you shortly after you make this purchase.
Have to say, if this is the sort of evolution of their Cash Shop and monetization model, any hopes that I had of EQNext being appealing to me wither up faster and faster.
As opposed to who? I don't disagree with you about how crappy this is but honestly how many options do we have? TSW added lock boxes half a year ago and there is no sign of them going away, PWI is one of the most cash shop heavy companies around even beating SOE in some of it's antics, SWTOR and Rift outright sell gear now, and GW2 sells in game gold for real world money plus lock boxes. Eve would be just as bad if the player base hadn't outright rebelled and you can be sure they have not forgotten their cash shop plans. just shelved them for another day.
This isn't any different than any other lock box system except that it adds the element of additional risk to it which is probably offset by higher chances of getting good stuff out of the boxes. I mean if the best stuff in PWI boxes are 1:1000 chance where the best stuff in H1Z1's are 1:100 does that offset the risk of not getting the box?
There really are no white knights here. From indie's to big main stream companies the cat is out of the bag and all beats are off. With very few exceptions both single player and multiplayer it's been several years since game development was more about creating a engaging fun experience and less about monitizing the crap out of it.
You have the option to not support companies that do this? If you fall into the trap that "everyone is doing this, what can we do about it", then you've already lost. SOE used to make solid games, and they've slipped down that slippery slope to where they are now. Just because other companies followed the dollar signs with gambling tactics doesn't mean SOE should have as well. Yet they did.
There are all kinds of ways to make money. SOE used to be in the business of making in-depth, compelling worlds with engaging content. That seems to have gotten watered down over time, and now here they are.
The only reason why this model has been flourishing is because of the people who support it. It's not going to go away, but that doesn't mean they are the only kid on the block. I won't support F2P or B2P games because I choose not to be a part of this plague that has cheapened the MMO market. If I wanted to gamble, if I wanted a casino-style carny atmosphere where people were always grabbing at my wallet, I'd go to Vegas.
I'm not that big a fan of lockboxes, but with those you're always getting something (usually with a small chance of getting something amazing, at least in MMOs that I've played that have them). With this, we're talking about spending money on something, and potentially never being able to use anything that drops, or losing it.
People spending money on lockboxes are not doing to get just "something", they want specific item(s), the rest is "junk" which I do not think they care much about - how much value an item you do not want have...? Also, there are also plenty of "alike" items like various crafting RNG related items.
The point is, this model works.
In case of H1Z1, even if you do not get the loot, you get the fun while trying to get the loot - your money goes directly into a game content, you are spawning an event. It is a fantastic idea.
You are saying that it is a good idea to pay with micro transactions for in game events and content.
You want a quest? Buy one in the cash shop.
You want to PvP? Buy a crate drop in the cash shop.
You want to run a dungeon? Buy dungeon key that spawns a multiplayer dungeon.
Are you really saying it would be OK that from now on games will be released without content and if you want anything to happen in a game you have to get your credit card and buy it?
The length people go to defend obvious bad ideas and game design is unbelievable.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle What I dont get is this. People chucking tones of money at crowd funded games and only 30% of them ever get released. Here is a game with an optional cash shop you can chose to support on a game you know you will get a chance to play and people are upset. When did supporting a company and game you like become a bad thing? When the money you get to use to support them turns into a fun server event.
Let me start by saying I don't do early access or kickstarter. However, I understand why someone would help fund one game and complain that there are paid advantages in another. It's due to the experience people are going for. Some people would rather pay and then simply be immersed in a game without worrying about how that game might affect their rl funds while playing. It's not about monetary comparison of value. I would rather spend 20 a month and then be able to have no urging in game to spend another cent than go ftp and be constantly reminded that A its a game and B you can spend 2 dollars here and 5 over there for this and that. The immersion gets ruined and it ends up feeling like one long info mercial. The value for me is in the experience.
Welcome to the future of EQ: Next guys. Anyone who has hopes for it is a fool in my book. having a game in 2016 at best, where they rode a current trend wave of minecraft of 2010 is such a fail. as for this zombie game and smedley: i really dont know what is wrong with such people. the evidence is right there and he still dares to lie and twist his way around it although we got it black on white? blows my mind, man. i really cant stand such shitty people, fuck off SOE.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle What I dont get is this. People chucking tones of money at crowd funded games and only 30% of them ever get released. Here is a game with an option cash shop you can chose to support on a game you know you will get a chance to play and people are upset. When did supporting a company and game you like become a bad thing? When the money you get to use to support them turns into a fun server event.
You are exactly the sort of naieve sucker these companies love and make millions from.
The devs serve up an unfinished pile of garbage which is full of P2W lock boxes, pay-gates for fun content and every other nickle and dime strategy under the sun and you smile and ask for more.
These are not games that are designed to be a fun and complete experience. They are simply a way to cash in and make a quick buck off of morons.
You just showed you have nothing of worth to argue, so instead you resort to trash like this...
He is right, there is nothing you have to buy here, not even the game if you want to try it out... It will be F2P. If it's not fun you don't have to play it, most won't. It's an early access game so of course it is unfinished...
For the record...People who aren't morons can argue actual points, without resorting to name calling and bile.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Originally posted by Nanfoodle What I dont get is this. People chucking tones of money at crowd funded games and only 30% of them ever get released. Here is a game with an option cash shop you can chose to support on a game you know you will get a chance to play and people are upset. When did supporting a company and game you like become a bad thing? When the money you get to use to support them turns into a fun server event.
You are exactly the sort of naieve sucker these companies love and make millions from.
The devs serve up an unfinished pile of garbage which is full of P2W lock boxes, pay-gates for fun content and every other nickle and dime strategy under the sun and you smile and ask for more.
These are not games that are designed to be a fun and complete experience. They are simply a way to cash in and make a quick buck off of morons.
You just showed you have nothing of worth to argue, so instead you resort to trash like this...
He is right, there is nothing you have to buy here, not even the game if you want to try it out... It will be F2P. If it's not fun you don't have to play it, most won't. It's an early access game so of course it is unfinished...
For the record...People who aren't morons can argue actual points, without resorting to name calling and bile.
Originally posted by Nanfoodle What I dont get is this. People chucking tones of money at crowd funded games and only 30% of them ever get released. Here is a game with an option cash shop you can chose to support on a game you know you will get a chance to play and people are upset. When did supporting a company and game you like become a bad thing? When the money you get to use to support them turns into a fun server event.
You are exactly the sort of naieve sucker these companies love and make millions from.
The devs serve up an unfinished pile of garbage which is full of P2W lock boxes, pay-gates for fun content and every other nickle and dime strategy under the sun and you smile and ask for more.
These are not games that are designed to be a fun and complete experience. They are simply a way to cash in and make a quick buck off of morons.
You just showed you have nothing of worth to argue, so instead you resort to trash like this...
He is right, there is nothing you have to buy here, not even the game if you want to try it out... It will be F2P. If it's not fun you don't have to play it, most won't. It's an early access game so of course it is unfinished...
For the record...People who aren't morons can argue actual points, without resorting to name calling and bile.
I'm guessing the irony here escaped you.
Not really he may be able to argue actual points, yet just chose not to...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
SOE just takes whatever is popular in the gaming market then produces a shallow F2P / P2W clone.
Battlefield = Planetside 2
Minecraft = EQ: Landmark
Zombie Survival = H1Z1
Action MMO = EQ: Next
What they are really selling are online slot machines with graphics/gameplay that prey on compulsive spenders and whales who can't control themselves.
Nobody can make a better game than WoW, so instead they resort to short-term, quick buck gambling that destroys their integrity. We really are in a dark ages period for MMOs.
I'm not that big a fan of lockboxes, but with those you're always getting something (usually with a small chance of getting something amazing, at least in MMOs that I've played that have them). With this, we're talking about spending money on something, and potentially never being able to use anything that drops, or losing it.
People spending money on lockboxes are not doing to get just "something", they want specific item(s), the rest is "junk" which I do not think they care much about - how much value an item you do not want have...? Also, there are also plenty of "alike" items like various crafting RNG related items.
The point is, this model works.
In case of H1Z1, even if you do not get the loot, you get the fun while trying to get the loot - your money goes directly into a game content, you are spawning an event. It is a fantastic idea.
You're the sort of potential customer SOE wants.
Yeah, this guy and his like, are the reason these companies know they can put the screws to us, make half-assed, unfinished games and still make a ton of money (charge to alpha test, p2w/gamble) without any worry about quality or longevity of play. Sad. I have lost hope there will ever be a good mmo made ever again. why bother, when a steaming pile of crap with a CS will make enough money.
SOE just takes whatever is popular in the gaming market then produces a shallow F2P / P2W clone.
Battlefield = Planetside 2
Minecraft = EQ: Landmark
Zombie Survival = H1Z1
Action MMO = EQ: Next
What they are really selling are online slot machines with graphics/gameplay that prey on compulsive spenders and whales who can't control themselves.
Nobody can make a better game than WoW, so instead they resort to short-term, quick buck gambling that destroys their integrity. We really are in a dark ages period for MMOs.
Maybe, I wouldn't know I haven't touched an SOE game since they gave me EQ2 for free due to screwing up SWG. I didn't like Themepark designs at the time...
As for H1Z1, I can't see it being much different than Dayz, outside of using a better engine. NPCs may react a bit more fluidly and construction may work better, but other than that I don't see the draw for those already playing DAYZ. Especially if it's going to be cash shop infused. 100 to a server doesn't seem as though it justifies not just being a typical box purchase such as Rust or Dayz.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm not that big a fan of lockboxes, but with those you're always getting something (usually with a small chance of getting something amazing, at least in MMOs that I've played that have them). With this, we're talking about spending money on something, and potentially never being able to use anything that drops, or losing it.
People spending money on lockboxes are not doing to get just "something", they want specific item(s), the rest is "junk" which I do not think they care much about - how much value an item you do not want have...? Also, there are also plenty of "alike" items like various crafting RNG related items.
The point is, this model works.
In case of H1Z1, even if you do not get the loot, you get the fun while trying to get the loot - your money goes directly into a game content, you are spawning an event. It is a fantastic idea.
You are saying that it is a good idea to pay with micro transactions for in game events and content.
You want a quest? Buy one in the cash shop.
You want to PvP? Buy a crate drop in the cash shop.
You want to run a dungeon? Buy dungeon key that spawns a multiplayer dungeon.
Are you really saying it would be OK that from now on games will be released without content and if you want anything to happen in a game you have to get your credit card and buy it?
The length people go to defend obvious bad ideas and game design is unbelievable.
Why is it obvious? It's definitely a monetization method. It's definitely a paywall where you're essentially announcing that you just bought something and placing a big red target on yourself, in a FFA PVP game. However, the jury is still out on whether or not it's a bad idea. If everyone is, really, running all over the place with loaded guns, then all we really know is that people are obviously buying them.
On the subject of Pay2Win, here's something that I'm not sure has been thrown out there before. IF the game is full loot PvP then can it actually be P2W? At some point you will, enevitably, die, meaning you will be giving up whatever items you had. Now, here's another question, with these Air Drops, do the items you gain from it go into your SOE Station Cash Locker? I've that items bought through the SC store will always be in your locker, so even if you lose it, it's still available to you from your locker. Does this apply to items gained through air drop crates? If not, then these air drop items will hit durability zero and break. So I think that the conversation of P2W might be a little pre-mature.
In case of H1Z1, even if you do not get the loot, you get the fun while trying to get the loot - your money goes directly into a game content, you are spawning an event. It is a fantastic idea.
I have to agree, but their implementation is completely flawed. I think calling in airdrops is great, but the drop location should be random. This would make paying for air drops more like purchasing a " server event " and less like buying an upgrade.
One thing I have liked about microtransaction games is the ability of players to purchase server buff type items. They might be the only good thing to ever come out of the microtransaction model.
You just showed you have nothing of worth to argue, so instead you resort to trash like this...
He is right, there is nothing you have to buy here, not even the game if you want to try it out... It will be F2P. If it's not fun you don't have to play it, most won't. It's an early access game so of course it is unfinished...
For the record...People who aren't morons can argue actual points, without resorting to name calling and bile.
Don't worry I won't be touching this game, but I am still going to call out devs and players who support these shady practices that cater to compulsive spenders and whales and are ruining the integrity of MMOs.
You do realize that people who did research on the game were lied to right?
Smed say no $ for guns, then of course on the first day they add a mechanic that allows $ for guns. They are now offering full refunds, which is an admission that they misled the playerbase.
And before you start calling people morons and their posts bile for not making any points, perhaps you should offer some points of your own. Otherwise you are just a random guy complaining about complainers which is those useless type of forum poster there is.
Smed is either the "realest" studio CEO or the most pompus one. Either way, he's telling all of US to our collective faces if we think something is P2W don't support it. Don't play it.
He either truly believes these air drops can't be exploited by credit card warriors OR he is so arrogant and confident that we're all the sheep he knows we are that it won't matter. "They wouldn't dare not play it. They can't resist trying something new. We'll clean up and there's nothing they can do about it. MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!"
What does the player base do in the face of this? What can we do? Will it matter?
"As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*"
Is this the SWG feeling smed was on about? Free for all air drops looks like a great way to build up a great community
I have to agree with the posters who think this is a bad idea. It's not P2W; IMO it's gambling and it's a crappy way to support a game by putting in-game events behind a paywall. It's a slippery slope for future content of the game. If the air drop makes SOE a lot of money what else will be put behind a paywall in the future.
I also have a feeling SOE in the future will give the player that pays up for an air drop a greater chance to claim the loot. Once an average player gets the loot grabbed from under him/her, he will be less likely to spend on an air drop in the future (IMO) and if it's only a few whales on each server getting them, SOE will not like the lost money and buff it up to max the profit potential.
^ Yep, classic FTP strat is to at first only make the game slightly P2W so that people get invested into the game.
Then seemingly out of nowhere they will add a blatant P2W mechanic to cash in and take advantage of the people who now don't want to quit because they have invested so much time into the game.
Originally posted by Bascola You are saying that it is a good idea to pay with micro transactions for in game events and content.
Sure, some people prefer paying as they go.
Originally posted by Bascola Are you really saying it would be OK that from now on games will be released without content and if you want anything to happen in a game you have to get your credit card and buy it?
Purchase and sub fees...we already went through this, I think.
There is a hint: Bad design and monetization is what people are not willing to pay for, not what YOU think the design and monetization SHOULD be.
Comments
You are exactly the sort of naieve sucker these companies love and make millions from.
The devs serve up an unfinished pile of garbage which is full of P2W lock boxes, pay-gates for fun content and every other nickle and dime strategy under the sun and you smile and ask for more.
These are not games that are designed to be a fun and complete experience. They are simply a way to cash in and make a quick buck off of morons.
I would agree with you but for one fact, I have been MMOing for 16 years now and I have played most triple A launches. In that time I can only think of 1 MMO that launched smooth, had end game and the quest were fully flushed out. People talk like MMOs are crappier now then they were in the past, when in fact that have 10 times more systems and launch just as bugged as they always have. All MMOs takes 3-6 months after launch to get this smoothed out and as am long time gamer, Im ok with that.
You have the option to not support companies that do this? If you fall into the trap that "everyone is doing this, what can we do about it", then you've already lost. SOE used to make solid games, and they've slipped down that slippery slope to where they are now. Just because other companies followed the dollar signs with gambling tactics doesn't mean SOE should have as well. Yet they did.
There are all kinds of ways to make money. SOE used to be in the business of making in-depth, compelling worlds with engaging content. That seems to have gotten watered down over time, and now here they are.
The only reason why this model has been flourishing is because of the people who support it. It's not going to go away, but that doesn't mean they are the only kid on the block. I won't support F2P or B2P games because I choose not to be a part of this plague that has cheapened the MMO market. If I wanted to gamble, if I wanted a casino-style carny atmosphere where people were always grabbing at my wallet, I'd go to Vegas.
You are saying that it is a good idea to pay with micro transactions for in game events and content.
Are you really saying it would be OK that from now on games will be released without content and if you want anything to happen in a game you have to get your credit card and buy it?
The length people go to defend obvious bad ideas and game design is unbelievable.
Let me start by saying I don't do early access or kickstarter. However, I understand why someone would help fund one game and complain that there are paid advantages in another. It's due to the experience people are going for. Some people would rather pay and then simply be immersed in a game without worrying about how that game might affect their rl funds while playing. It's not about monetary comparison of value. I would rather spend 20 a month and then be able to have no urging in game to spend another cent than go ftp and be constantly reminded that A its a game and B you can spend 2 dollars here and 5 over there for this and that. The immersion gets ruined and it ends up feeling like one long info mercial. The value for me is in the experience.
No one in the F2P world, yes. You are correct there. But then again, I wouldn't support them either so it's win-win.
You just showed you have nothing of worth to argue, so instead you resort to trash like this...
He is right, there is nothing you have to buy here, not even the game if you want to try it out... It will be F2P. If it's not fun you don't have to play it, most won't. It's an early access game so of course it is unfinished...
For the record...People who aren't morons can argue actual points, without resorting to name calling and bile.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'm guessing the irony here escaped you.
Not really he may be able to argue actual points, yet just chose not to...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
SOE just takes whatever is popular in the gaming market then produces a shallow F2P / P2W clone.
Battlefield = Planetside 2
Minecraft = EQ: Landmark
Zombie Survival = H1Z1
Action MMO = EQ: Next
What they are really selling are online slot machines with graphics/gameplay that prey on compulsive spenders and whales who can't control themselves.
Nobody can make a better game than WoW, so instead they resort to short-term, quick buck gambling that destroys their integrity. We really are in a dark ages period for MMOs.
Yeah, this guy and his like, are the reason these companies know they can put the screws to us, make half-assed, unfinished games and still make a ton of money (charge to alpha test, p2w/gamble) without any worry about quality or longevity of play. Sad. I have lost hope there will ever be a good mmo made ever again. why bother, when a steaming pile of crap with a CS will make enough money.
Maybe, I wouldn't know I haven't touched an SOE game since they gave me EQ2 for free due to screwing up SWG. I didn't like Themepark designs at the time...
As for H1Z1, I can't see it being much different than Dayz, outside of using a better engine. NPCs may react a bit more fluidly and construction may work better, but other than that I don't see the draw for those already playing DAYZ. Especially if it's going to be cash shop infused. 100 to a server doesn't seem as though it justifies not just being a typical box purchase such as Rust or Dayz.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Why is it obvious? It's definitely a monetization method. It's definitely a paywall where you're essentially announcing that you just bought something and placing a big red target on yourself, in a FFA PVP game. However, the jury is still out on whether or not it's a bad idea. If everyone is, really, running all over the place with loaded guns, then all we really know is that people are obviously buying them.
On the subject of Pay2Win, here's something that I'm not sure has been thrown out there before. IF the game is full loot PvP then can it actually be P2W? At some point you will, enevitably, die, meaning you will be giving up whatever items you had. Now, here's another question, with these Air Drops, do the items you gain from it go into your SOE Station Cash Locker? I've that items bought through the SC store will always be in your locker, so even if you lose it, it's still available to you from your locker. Does this apply to items gained through air drop crates? If not, then these air drop items will hit durability zero and break. So I think that the conversation of P2W might be a little pre-mature.
However, apparently SOE is giving refunds:
"John Smedley
@j_smedley
Refunds - if you are upset about the airdrop P2W issue and want a refund email bwilcox@soe.sony.com and we will take care of you"
So, yeah, SOE are real bad dudes.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I have to agree, but their implementation is completely flawed. I think calling in airdrops is great, but the drop location should be random. This would make paying for air drops more like purchasing a " server event " and less like buying an upgrade.
One thing I have liked about microtransaction games is the ability of players to purchase server buff type items. They might be the only good thing to ever come out of the microtransaction model.
Don't worry I won't be touching this game, but I am still going to call out devs and players who support these shady practices that cater to compulsive spenders and whales and are ruining the integrity of MMOs.
You do realize that people who did research on the game were lied to right?
Smed say no $ for guns, then of course on the first day they add a mechanic that allows $ for guns. They are now offering full refunds, which is an admission that they misled the playerbase.
And before you start calling people morons and their posts bile for not making any points, perhaps you should offer some points of your own. Otherwise you are just a random guy complaining about complainers which is those useless type of forum poster there is.
My fellow PC Gamers,
Smed is either the "realest" studio CEO or the most pompus one. Either way, he's telling all of US to our collective faces if we think something is P2W don't support it. Don't play it.
He either truly believes these air drops can't be exploited by credit card warriors OR he is so arrogant and confident that we're all the sheep he knows we are that it won't matter. "They wouldn't dare not play it. They can't resist trying something new. We'll clean up and there's nothing they can do about it. MUAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!"
What does the player base do in the face of this? What can we do? Will it matter?
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Is this the SWG feeling smed was on about? Free for all air drops looks like a great way to build up a great community
I have to agree with the posters who think this is a bad idea. It's not P2W; IMO it's gambling and it's a crappy way to support a game by putting in-game events behind a paywall. It's a slippery slope for future content of the game. If the air drop makes SOE a lot of money what else will be put behind a paywall in the future.
I also have a feeling SOE in the future will give the player that pays up for an air drop a greater chance to claim the loot. Once an average player gets the loot grabbed from under him/her, he will be less likely to spend on an air drop in the future (IMO) and if it's only a few whales on each server getting them, SOE will not like the lost money and buff it up to max the profit potential.
^ Yep, classic FTP strat is to at first only make the game slightly P2W so that people get invested into the game.
Then seemingly out of nowhere they will add a blatant P2W mechanic to cash in and take advantage of the people who now don't want to quit because they have invested so much time into the game.
Please do not twist my words and then say I am correct. Thank you.
I explicitely said that you seem to be a sort of customer no one wants, regardless.
Sure, some people prefer paying as they go.
Purchase and sub fees...we already went through this, I think.
There is a hint: Bad design and monetization is what people are not willing to pay for, not what YOU think the design and monetization SHOULD be.
Erm, so you should trigger an event and then not even know where it takes place...?
I doubt that would worth anyone's time, not to say money...
Smedley.....lied.... to people ????