Originally posted by janjanson I hope the military justice system comes down very hard on these guys. Stuff like this is so damaging to what is trying to be achieved out there, it puts other soldiers lives at risk from reprisals.
i've never wanted to be violent towards anyone before... i dont even understand what it means to want to hurt someone....
war is just fucked up. people are fucked in the head. i dont think it's my fault for being a pacifist anymore than it is those soldiers fault for being violent.
we shouldnt blame people for societies failures
i agree it is detrimental to our image, but our world creates the same violence the muslim world does. why we must continually hide that remains in our attempt to justify that capitalism makes people happy.
if capitalism dies, the rich die, so punish the products of a failed system instead of correct it.
great idea =(
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Originally posted by Slickinfinit I am not any of the streo-types u mentioned and I cant see how violence solves problems. It not only sends a realy bad signal and sets a horrible example but it undermines all that the war effort is trying to achieve. We have to uphold human rights and properly learn to deal with confrontation and I personaly think beating the pulp outta people will only lead to more violence.
why free iraq if they become as fucked as us? who are you freeing them from?
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Originally posted by Hohbein Originally posted by SlickinfinitI am not any of the streo-types u mentioned and I cant see how violence solves problems. It not only sends a realy bad signal and sets a horrible example but it undermines all that the war effort is trying to achieve. We have to uphold human rights and properly learn to deal with confrontation and I personaly think beating the pulp outta people will only lead to more violence. we are trying to achieve peace in iraq, yes. how can peace be acheived if we arent allowed to punish people that disturb the peace?! its a cycle, if you cant punish them they WILL continue. dont forget, the majority of people in iraq HATE the western world with an almighty passion! telling them nicely to stop throwing stones isnt going to get through to them now, is it? by the way, i AM actually against the war on iraq, i know it may not sound like it... but as i mentioned earlier, some wars NEED to happen but i do beleive there was no good reason for this war to ever have happened. however, that said, i think as we are now there and we've screwed up iraq this much, we should stay there and try at least to straighten it out as well as possible, by restoring law and order to the streets.
yea i'm with you. lets just kill every last human, that will stop those rebels =D idiot
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
Originally posted by Phoenixs You sound like a extremist. You didn't happen to beat up some immigrants the last days, or bomb some abortion clinics? Come on dude. Get some common sence into your head. Punishing criminals by beating them it shitty pools of blood doesn't help. Specially not on children (Sick that you even support this). I suggest you take a look at the human rights: [url=http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html] You are actually supporting behavior that is illegal by the international human rights.
when did i say its ok for children to be beaten into pools of blood? i said that smacking children now and again to teach them right and wrong does no harm what-so-ever, infact its the only way to teach children. human rights are largely out of control now, the simple fact that we give human rights to anything with a pulse is rediculous. why should we give murderers and child rapists human rights? answer me that. human rights are fine if they're limited, and in control. i dont mind normal every day innocent people having human rights, which they rightly should do. but not everyone is worthy of having human rights, depending on their own actions. if you act like an animal, expect to be TREATED like an animal. [/b][/quote]
animals are far better creatures than humans. violence is the only way to teach children?
what is wrong with you... what is this nazi germany?
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
What intresting BUSH supporters i find on here anywho.... thats all i'm going to say i dont care about the war anyways not my business , the americain government just wants oil i have to say
AND I DO NOT SUPPORT BUSH! even tho i'm canadian and your wrong ! clinton is way better than bush
My conclusion is that there will always be people who cannot understand that speaking to people and treating them as equals will more often than not open diplomatic doors that would have otherwise been closed. Until everyone can wrap their mind around the idea that violence dosent solve anything and that there are other, more civilised, ways to resolve problems.
For those of you who advocate violence, you have my pity. I hope that one day you will change your perspectives.
I am by no means religious, in fact, im an agnostic, but I think that the theory of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" makes a shitload of sense. I think that Jesus guy said something like that a long time ago.
Slapme7times I agree with everything. You saved me a lot of typing.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by Slickinfinit I am not any of the streo-types u mentioned and I cant see how violence solves problems. It not only sends a realy bad signal and sets a horrible example but it undermines all that the war effort is trying to achieve. We have to uphold human rights and properly learn to deal with confrontation and I personaly think beating the pulp outta people will only lead to more violence.
why free iraq if they become as fucked as us? who are you freeing them from?
I have to say I have read some of your comments and you are an idoit in some respects and idoit in other too. Do not blame america for Bushes actions as most of us don't care for him.. it's jsut Kerry was an even big moron.
As for the above comment you need to be shot in the balls and left in the street. Have you ever spoken to an Iraqi personally? Do you even know what they went through? When I was in Iraq I spoke with a man that told me of how his son was shot jsut for coming out of his home while Sadam was driving through town. How he explain why the age range of some Iraqi women suddenly go from 16 to 30 as al the women inbetween were taken by sadams army and never heard from again. How the mere owning of a camera or computer could get you shot by soldiers.
You may be fucked, but I wouldn't wish sadams conditions on my worst enemies.
Originally posted by Jonsus For those of you who advocate violence, you have my pity. I hope that one day you will change your perspectives.
Oh god.
Shutup.
IT IS A WAR! Yes, in all definitios it is a war. What is war? Violence?
No, I do not advocate violence. But when someone throws rocks at you and you let them, that gives off the presence that you are weak and puts you and your unit in serious harms way.
Nothing bugs me more than ppl who sit in their comfortable houses complaining what happens in a war when they have seen NOTHING even close or similiar to it.
People Are Violent. Period. Violence must be restrained w/ violence. Or as I said, you will be preceived as weak and more violence will fall upon you. And don't feed me abunch of bullshit that it can be overcome by non-violence with Ghandi, that's total bullshit. That's one person in history who succeeded in overcoming it with peaceful means and I worship him for that, if we could just have one Ghandi in every country the world would be a better place. But that's just it, he was just one person. How many ppl have tried since and before him? Millions, 100s of Millions. Do you know their names? No you don't.
And I do agree that Bush Sucks. Clinton was far worse, but Bush sucks. "His" (which weren't really his if you understand politics) REAL reasons for going into the war as crap and self-serving. But the ppl there were in true horrible pain and since we have been there their lives have gotten ALOT better. Have you seen it? No, you haven't, so turn off your propoganda filled news and jump on a plane, fly to the middle east, rent a car and go there. If you don't do that or join the military, stfu. Because you know nothing.
On a side note: My Army National Guard Unit is based out of Clinton's home town and I still think Clinton is a piece of crap. He's not even welcome in our state for being such a piece of crap... that's not a public opinion... that's an official ruling. He will go to jail if he comes into Arkansas.
Originally posted by BlueDagger Do not blame america for Bushes actions as most of us don't care for him.. it's jsut Kerry was an even big moron.
Originally posted by Jonsus Ive combed my way through this entire thread.
My conclusion is that there will always be people who cannot understand that speaking to people and treating them as equals will more often than not open diplomatic doors that would have otherwise been closed. Until everyone can wrap their mind around the idea that violence dosent solve anything and that there are other, more civilised, ways to resolve problems.
so, lets get this straight. if you were faced with 30+ iraqi's throwing stones, hurling abuse and charging toward you violently.... you would treat them as equals? does this mean you would have to start throwing stones, hurling abuse and charging toward them?? i personally think hitting them with sticks is the way to go. but i'm glad we see eye to eye.
dont be such a pillock, you've obviously not got a clue about dealing with confrontational situations. do you think these iraqies WANT to be diplomatic? do you think they WANT to be equal to us? bollocks they do! they want our blood, they hate us with a passion and no amount of left-wing liberalism will EVER change that.
I hope the military justice system comes down very hard on these guys. Stuff like this is so damaging to what is trying to be achieved out there, it puts other soldiers lives at risk from reprisals.
i've never wanted to be violent towards anyone before... i dont even understand what it means to want to hurt someone....
war is just fucked up. people are fucked in the head. i dont think it's my fault for being a pacifist anymore than it is those soldiers fault for being violent.
we shouldnt blame people for societies failures
Regardless of the provocation those youths were not armed when being beaten. Those youths were in the custody of the soldiers, the soldiers had a responsibility to care for the prisoners until they could be handed over to the correct authorities and processed by the law, e.g. interrogated, tried or released etc.
Most people believe in personal responsibility for actions, I do too, regardless of your feelings towards society as you perceive it. Those soldiers had a choice whether to hand those youths over to the proper authorities in a lawful manner, or disregard the law and act criminally, they chose the latter, and in my view should be tried for it.
Had they been under threat themselves, as they might have been minutes before when approaching the mob, then the rules of engagement apply. I wouldnt blame them for shooting somebody pointing an RPG at them, or hitting someone holding a stone, the point is that these prisoners once inside the compound were not a threat, the beating was simple revenge.
i agree it is detrimental to our image, but our world creates the same violence the muslim world does. why we must continually hide that remains in our attempt to justify that capitalism makes people happy.
Image is very important when trying to bring about the change that the allied forces are attempting in Iraq, whether you are for or against what the allies are doing, putting the lives of your fellow soldiers at risk from reprisals is irresponsible. This video was filmed some time ago, will we ever know if any of the allied fatalities since were a direct response to this? Maybe some family is mourning the loss of a son right now because these soldiers lawlessness?
You are right, every country suffers from violence it is part of human nature, I don't think that makes it right.
if capitalism dies, the rich die, so punish the products of a failed system instead of correct it.
great idea =(
Whether capitalism is a failed system is irrelevant to this discussion, in my opinion at least, whatever the answer it doesn't absolve anybody from breaking the law.
Originally posted by Jonsus I am by no means religious, in fact, im an agnostic, but I think that the theory of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" makes a shitload of sense. I think that Jesus guy said something like that a long time ago.
Exactly. How will we ever get peace in the middle east if all the people see is violence from our side. Hate breeds hate. Violence breeds violence and so on. What makes "us" better if we act like this? If it has to be like this why not just invite Saddam and Bin Laden to a tea party, and start a alliance of united violence?
Those soldier broke every law when it comes about prisoner of war threatment. They should have arrested the boys and delivered them to the MP or whoever handles interrogation in the british army. This is how prisoners how war are supposed to be threated: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
As far as I know justice will happen. 1 person is arrested so far.
It's not understandable that those soldier act like that. No matter how angry they are. Just as a person who pukes each time he sees blood can't become a surgent, or a blind person can't become a pilot, a person who can't handle stress or other situation that can arise in war shouldn't be a soldier. You can't put that much responsibility in the hands of one who can't handle it. On the video it doesn't look like the teenagers are much older than 16 years. They throw rocks. What on earth has a soldier in full kevlar and a fully loaded m16, to fear of a 16 year old throwing stones. Not as much to react like they did.
I have seen many twisted ideas and opinions on the internet. But this has to be the far worst case ever. If you think that violence and torture is the way to run this world you are seriously twisted. And I really hope you never get a political position whatsoever.
I agree with the OP to a certain degree, actions must have consequences in order to stop it being repeated. The worst consequence is probably pain, besides i'm guessing they wouldn't of locked up these teenagers anyway, it isn't worth it to most of the army. But they couldn't just let them get off without any punishment at all, they wouldn't learn a thing.
agreed, alot of people are freaking out and insulting other people because they don't agree with them. and that is what is BS..... please lock this thread.
Originally posted by angerr [quote]Originally posted by SnaKey
Someone lock this thread already. It's bullshit.
[/b][/quote] agreed, alot of people are freaking out and insulting other people because they don't agree with them. and that is what is BS..... please lock this thread.
people freaking out and insulting each other is what a forum is about.. unfortunatly this thread will be locked, but people cant deny its been entertaining.
I thought this thread was pretty tame considering the topic.
What has amazed me with this story is the double standards of the British public (of which I am a subject). There has been a big majority supporting the actions of the troops, had those troops been from the USA those very same people would have been going ape about the brutality of the US.
This proves the British believe their own press, all we learn in school is the glory of 2 world war victories, unlike Germany we have never had to confront our evil history. Therefore, the public simply won't accept any other line than "the British army are the best in the world" - no matter how much proof exists otherwise.
Regardless of the pressure the troops are under, the footage shows they grab the nearest kids available & gave them a beating which is not accetable.
Originally posted by anderman I thought this thread was pretty tame considering the topic. What has amazed me with this story is the double standards of the British public (of which I am a subject). There has been a big majority supporting the actions of the troops, had those troops been from the USA those very same people would have been going ape about the brutality of the US. This proves the British believe their own press, all we learn in school is the glory of 2 world war victories, unlike Germany we have never had to confront our evil history. Therefore, the public simply won't accept any other line than "the British army are the best in the world" - no matter how much proof exists otherwise. Regardless of the pressure the troops are under, the footage shows they grab the nearest kids available & gave them a beating which is not accetable.
in strict fairness, the british army -is- the best in the world.. and we do own all. a couple of troops teaching some iraqi's a lesson is hardly equal to our army being crap is it?
It doesnt shock me one bit. That is war. War is brutality. We did worse in Vietnam and Hitler did worse in WW2. It's pretty mild in comparison. BTW Israeli soldiers routinely break the arms of palestenian kids that throw rocks at them to keep them from being able to throw rocks again. I don't see anyone yelling about that on here. Drop the double standards and look at reality for a change. Soldiers kill they dont protect.
Comments
i've never wanted to be violent towards anyone before... i dont even understand what it means to want to hurt someone....
war is just fucked up. people are fucked in the head. i dont think it's my fault for being a pacifist anymore than it is those soldiers fault for being violent.
we shouldnt blame people for societies failures
i agree it is detrimental to our image, but our world creates the same violence the muslim world does. why we must continually hide that remains in our attempt to justify that capitalism makes people happy.
if capitalism dies, the rich die, so punish the products of a failed system instead of correct it.
great idea =(
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
dont be soft with criminals?
an evil world breeds evil people.
and yes, america is absofucking evil.
you know who else says only idiots in dreams worlds think that wars dont need to be fought?
osama. hitler. stalin. the cia. bush.
what rolemodels you chose... =D
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
why free iraq if they become as fucked as us? who are you freeing them from?
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
yea i'm with you. lets just kill every last human, that will stop those rebels =D idiot
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
[quote]Originally posted by Hohbein
[b]
Originally posted by Phoenixs
You sound like a extremist. You didn't happen to beat up some immigrants the last days, or bomb some abortion clinics?
Come on dude. Get some common sence into your head. Punishing criminals by beating them it shitty pools of blood doesn't help. Specially not on children (Sick that you even support this). I suggest you take a look at the human rights:
[url=http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html]
You are actually supporting behavior that is illegal by the international human rights.
when did i say its ok for children to be beaten into pools of blood? i said that smacking children now and again to teach them right and wrong does no harm what-so-ever, infact its the only way to teach children.
human rights are largely out of control now, the simple fact that we give human rights to anything with a pulse is rediculous. why should we give murderers and child rapists human rights? answer me that.
human rights are fine if they're limited, and in control. i dont mind normal every day innocent people having human rights, which they rightly should do. but not everyone is worthy of having human rights, depending on their own actions. if you act like an animal, expect to be TREATED like an animal.
[/b][/quote]
animals are far better creatures than humans. violence is the only way to teach children?
what is wrong with you... what is this nazi germany?
--people who believe in abstinence are unsurprisingly also some of the ugliest most sexually undesired people in the world.--
I'm too lazy to read this entire thread, so I'll just assume someone commented about Bush.
Bush is the best presidency we've had since Nixon/Reagen/Lincoln. While the worst have most certainly been the Clinton/Kennedy administration.
Anyone who disagrees with me is already 112% wrong, and should just stop now.
The end.
AND I DO NOT SUPPORT BUSH! even tho i'm canadian
LOL so as long as i agree with your opinion i am right? wow! some people should not be allowed to post on these forums.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
Ive combed my way through this entire thread.
My conclusion is that there will always be people who cannot understand that speaking to people and treating them as equals will more often than not open diplomatic doors that would have otherwise been closed. Until everyone can wrap their mind around the idea that violence dosent solve anything and that there are other, more civilised, ways to resolve problems.
For those of you who advocate violence, you have my pity. I hope that one day you will change your perspectives.
I am by no means religious, in fact, im an agnostic, but I think that the theory of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" makes a shitload of sense. I think that Jesus guy said something like that a long time ago.
Slapme7times I agree with everything. You saved me a lot of typing.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
why free iraq if they become as fucked as us? who are you freeing them from?
I have to say I have read some of your comments and you are an idoit in some respects and idoit in other too. Do not blame america for Bushes actions as most of us don't care for him.. it's jsut Kerry was an even big moron.
As for the above comment you need to be shot in the balls and left in the street. Have you ever spoken to an Iraqi personally? Do you even know what they went through? When I was in Iraq I spoke with a man that told me of how his son was shot jsut for coming out of his home while Sadam was driving through town. How he explain why the age range of some Iraqi women suddenly go from 16 to 30 as al the women inbetween were taken by sadams army and never heard from again. How the mere owning of a camera or computer could get you shot by soldiers.
You may be fucked, but I wouldn't wish sadams conditions on my worst enemies.
... gamer forever
Oh god.
Shutup.
IT IS A WAR! Yes, in all definitios it is a war. What is war? Violence?
No, I do not advocate violence. But when someone throws rocks at you and you let them, that gives off the presence that you are weak and puts you and your unit in serious harms way.
Nothing bugs me more than ppl who sit in their comfortable houses complaining what happens in a war when they have seen NOTHING even close or similiar to it.
People Are Violent. Period.
Violence must be restrained w/ violence. Or as I said, you will be preceived as weak and more violence will fall upon you. And don't feed me abunch of bullshit that it can be overcome by non-violence with Ghandi, that's total bullshit. That's one person in history who succeeded in overcoming it with peaceful means and I worship him for that, if we could just have one Ghandi in every country the world would be a better place. But that's just it, he was just one person. How many ppl have tried since and before him? Millions, 100s of Millions. Do you know their names? No you don't.
And I do agree that Bush Sucks. Clinton was far worse, but Bush sucks.
"His" (which weren't really his if you understand politics) REAL reasons for going into the war as crap and self-serving. But the ppl there were in true horrible pain and since we have been there their lives have gotten ALOT better. Have you seen it? No, you haven't, so turn off your propoganda filled news and jump on a plane, fly to the middle east, rent a car and go there. If you don't do that or join the military, stfu. Because you know nothing.
On a side note:
My Army National Guard Unit is based out of Clinton's home town and I still think Clinton is a piece of crap. He's not even welcome in our state for being such a piece of crap... that's not a public opinion... that's an official ruling. He will go to jail if he comes into Arkansas.
Someone lock this thread already. It's bullshit.
A Work in Progress.
Add Me
Exactly. How will we ever get peace in the middle east if all the people see is violence from our side. Hate breeds hate. Violence breeds violence and so on. What makes "us" better if we act like this? If it has to be like this why not just invite Saddam and Bin Laden to a tea party, and start a alliance of united violence?
Those soldier broke every law when it comes about prisoner of war threatment. They should have arrested the boys and delivered them to the MP or whoever handles interrogation in the british army. This is how prisoners how war are supposed to be threated: http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/91.htm
As far as I know justice will happen. 1 person is arrested so far.
It's not understandable that those soldier act like that. No matter how angry they are. Just as a person who pukes each time he sees blood can't become a surgent, or a blind person can't become a pilot, a person who can't handle stress or other situation that can arise in war shouldn't be a soldier. You can't put that much responsibility in the hands of one who can't handle it. On the video it doesn't look like the teenagers are much older than 16 years. They throw rocks. What on earth has a soldier in full kevlar and a fully loaded m16, to fear of a 16 year old throwing stones. Not as much to react like they did.
I have seen many twisted ideas and opinions on the internet. But this has to be the far worst case ever. If you think that violence and torture is the way to run this world you are seriously twisted. And I really hope you never get a political position whatsoever.
[quote]Originally posted by SnaKey
Someone lock this thread already. It's bullshit.
[/b][/quote]
agreed, alot of people are freaking out and insulting other people because they don't agree with them. and that is what is BS..... please lock this thread.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
I thought this thread was pretty tame considering the topic.
What has amazed me with this story is the double standards of the British public (of which I am a subject). There has been a big majority supporting the actions of the troops, had those troops been from the USA those very same people would have been going ape about the brutality of the US.
This proves the British believe their own press, all we learn in school is the glory of 2 world war victories, unlike Germany we have never had to confront our evil history. Therefore, the public simply won't accept any other line than "the British army are the best in the world" - no matter how much proof exists otherwise.
Regardless of the pressure the troops are under, the footage shows they grab the nearest kids available & gave them a beating which is not accetable.
All i wanna know is what did them soldiers think that were walking past looking?
Anyways this is nothing to what the American soldiers were doing with tham naked iraqqys
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Don't click here...no2
This is gonna cause some more bombings in London
Olympics 2012 should be fun
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Don't click here...no2
It doesnt shock me one bit. That is war. War is brutality. We did worse in Vietnam and Hitler did worse in WW2. It's pretty mild in comparison. BTW Israeli soldiers routinely break the arms of palestenian kids that throw rocks at them to keep them from being able to throw rocks again. I don't see anyone yelling about that on here. Drop the double standards and look at reality for a change. Soldiers kill they dont protect.
Make a difference!
they shouldnt have just beat them, they should have gone ahead and shot them so they wouldnt be a problem anymore to any troops