Snowpelt, I popped over to the forums but for the life of me I can't see anywhere to sign up.........
And the Forums do need some work in general.
Just a quick bio - Asheron' Call (didn't play EQ), switched to the beleaguered AC2 when it came out - was such a shame cos all they really had to do was update AC with the graphics engine of AC2 with some other revamps and they would have had a sure fire winner! I guess selling the AC franchise to Microsoft (i think) was probably a bad idea but im sure there were many factors involved not least a big cash injection to allow them to develop/recover costs for AC2.
Pretty much every mmo since then;
WoW - Beta tested and played for many many years, just recently quit playing again (WoD) - game just feels stale and grindy once again after a few months.
AoC Beta and played for a while but post release gave up as the open PVP ganking just ruined the game totally (its totally pointless to try and play a game where toons 10-40 lvls higher than me are just chain ganking)
TSW was pretty fun for a while, some of the puzzles requiring REALLY REALLY deep thought and investigation were and still are epic!
ESO, ~kinda~ meh.... balance issues kinda ruined it from launch - plus odd style of combat....heading back to check it out this Tues/Weds when it goes B2P to see if they have addressed the issues (still undecided whether they pulled it off - although the skill morphing system is pretty interesting).
Neverwinter disappointing from a "dyed in the wool old school pen & paper D&D fanboy" along with D&D Online
LOTRO - probably one of the most beautiful in game "vista's" ever!
Archeage - complete FUBAR over botting/hacking/exploits and totally ridiculous crafting system - it has its good points in places but requiring me to grind for mats for 2 months to get gear is just poor time Vs reward implementation.
GW1 - wasn't for me - GW2 enjoyed it but too many bugs post release remained for far too long, but still have a fondness for it.
Firefall (scifi mmorpg/fps) longest ever Beta and most radically changed game I have ever seen from one iteration to another. Seems they may be on the right track finally but only time will tell.
Warhammer Online - omg NEVER let the lead designer be able to play a single class - Bright Wizard (lead developers fave class) ruined the game from the get go, followed by Warrior Priest.
Rift - played beta and from launch - hit max level 14 days after start (took my time to clear the whole map on first run through) lasted maybe 5 months then quit playing. Went back beginning of 2014 and had tonnes of fun for few more months - kinda like the fact that each class has the option of all roles Tank/Heal/Support/DPS keeps the classes more readily balanced and gives you the option to play each role if required.
There are lots of others im sure i missed.
Lessons learned:
1) DO NOT build a game where the time to max level is LESS THAN 2-3MONTHS or your gonna loose people quickly and also from the inevitable grind post cap.
Plus your making life difficult for yourselves if you do cos its much harder to inject the new "Fresh" feeling back into the game once you have capped.
2) Have a plan already in place to address the issue of max level Vs grind once at cap
Rift's Planar Attunement System and ESO's Champion System are pretty good post lvl cap methods to add more interest and less grind.
Dailies are NOT a rewarding system, but can be a functional system if implemented in different stages - see point (7)
3) Get the class balance as close to perfect FROM THE START, your game and developer life will be immeasurably simpler and generally better if you can!
Good things to avoid are the Bright Wizard and Warrior Priest situations experienced in Warhammer Online, which despite there being "opposite" classes for the other faction never got close in reality to same level of paucity.
The upshot being that IF YOU CAN'T balance classes under the "Class Mirror" system just fall back to a single set of classes available to everyone, you can always add more classes to the game from the start or later post release.....
The Holy Trinity of Tank/Heal/DPS should really be expanded to include true support classes and/or support/buff/debuff classes - so a Holy Quartet or Holy Quintet....
4) Time Vs reward - if it takes sooooo long to get/craft something that it isn't fun, it isn't a winning formula!
eg. WoW epic ring upgrade takes 900 Runes which takes something like 4-8 weeks to get depending on your raiding level (more time if your lower level raiding Vs less time if your more geared and raiding @ HC/Mythic levels). BUT its possible to RNG random loot that makes this obsolete or at least a diminishing reward if your raiding at those levels anyway.....
5) Quests, try and script quests so that they HAVE to be READ/Listened too - it makes the game more engaging. Many ppl may disagree but in my experience people don't really KNOW what they want.
Making quests circuitous and requiring many steps IS actually fun and ultimately rewarding, adding in a crafting quest/requirement like having someone craft it or having to unlock a part of an instance to get to the crafting station required to make it is also fantastic.
Avoid instanced quests as much as possible - ESO for example is terrible @ this!
6) Crafting should be a primary asset and not a tertiary thought to any class.
Community gathering/harvesting is GREAT!
Separate gear load outs for Adventuring/Crafting/Gathering is nice too!
7) Zones - no one like a dead town, make your game so that there are reasons to continually revisit zones which were traditionally LOWER LEVEL
For example make low level towns/zones have content which only unlocks @ higher level tiers so that there is a continual influx of people into that area for different reasons.
Whether that is instances, unique events or perhaps new dailies or Reputation quests unlocked @ higher tiers.
8) DO NOT, EVER EVER!!, allow client side services run game critical elements or you will create a hack to win game - ArcheAge - if in doubt make it server side.
9) Combat, its really, REALLY HARD to come up with new combat ideas. Tab targeting is pretty old hat, but tried and tested and game mechanics are much easier to calculate off of this.
Something like Darkfall is much more complicated, not necessarily less rewarding, but the FPS is likely a barrier to many people deciding to play the game.
10) PVP - is insanely hard to balance.
Biggest issues are:
Balance
Stealth
Crowd Control/Stuns/Roots etc
Blocking
Immunities
Gearing
11) Instances, fixed mechanics on bosses is kinda tiresome. Do this when X does that repeat, repeat etc etc etc - introducing some randomness to the encounters would be a breath of fresh air! Maybe a pool of abilities with some linked to others which can randomly occur during a fight would keep players on their toes and keep it fun cos your never quite sure what order things are going to happen.
The "proving grounds" introduced in WoW WoD are very good, mostly keeps complete idiots out of your individual game, so your game play time is generally more fun. Could be expanded to different tiers or difficulties of dungeons/raids.
I get the Utherous name but agree with some of the other guys comments - searching Utherous is just BAD!
Sorry for the insanely long post, hope there are some useful points in there for you guys
I am working on the forums as we speak! The login and register buttons should be where you expect them to be tonight. I have no idea why BBpress doesn't put them there by default!
Will take a look at the rest of your post once I get that ironed out!
Comments
Snowpelt, I popped over to the forums but for the life of me I can't see anywhere to sign up.........
And the Forums do need some work in general.
Just a quick bio - Asheron' Call (didn't play EQ), switched to the beleaguered AC2 when it came out - was such a shame cos all they really had to do was update AC with the graphics engine of AC2 with some other revamps and they would have had a sure fire winner! I guess selling the AC franchise to Microsoft (i think) was probably a bad idea but im sure there were many factors involved not least a big cash injection to allow them to develop/recover costs for AC2.
Pretty much every mmo since then;
WoW - Beta tested and played for many many years, just recently quit playing again (WoD) - game just feels stale and grindy once again after a few months.
AoC Beta and played for a while but post release gave up as the open PVP ganking just ruined the game totally (its totally pointless to try and play a game where toons 10-40 lvls higher than me are just chain ganking)
TSW was pretty fun for a while, some of the puzzles requiring REALLY REALLY deep thought and investigation were and still are epic!
ESO, ~kinda~ meh.... balance issues kinda ruined it from launch - plus odd style of combat....heading back to check it out this Tues/Weds when it goes B2P to see if they have addressed the issues (still undecided whether they pulled it off - although the skill morphing system is pretty interesting).
Neverwinter disappointing from a "dyed in the wool old school pen & paper D&D fanboy" along with D&D Online
LOTRO - probably one of the most beautiful in game "vista's" ever!
Archeage - complete FUBAR over botting/hacking/exploits and totally ridiculous crafting system - it has its good points in places but requiring me to grind for mats for 2 months to get gear is just poor time Vs reward implementation.
GW1 - wasn't for me - GW2 enjoyed it but too many bugs post release remained for far too long, but still have a fondness for it.
Firefall (scifi mmorpg/fps) longest ever Beta and most radically changed game I have ever seen from one iteration to another. Seems they may be on the right track finally but only time will tell.
Warhammer Online - omg NEVER let the lead designer be able to play a single class - Bright Wizard (lead developers fave class) ruined the game from the get go, followed by Warrior Priest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSamgHuz0tU
Rift - played beta and from launch - hit max level 14 days after start (took my time to clear the whole map on first run through) lasted maybe 5 months then quit playing. Went back beginning of 2014 and had tonnes of fun for few more months - kinda like the fact that each class has the option of all roles Tank/Heal/Support/DPS keeps the classes more readily balanced and gives you the option to play each role if required.
There are lots of others im sure i missed.
Lessons learned:
1) DO NOT build a game where the time to max level is LESS THAN 2-3MONTHS or your gonna loose people quickly and also from the inevitable grind post cap.
Plus your making life difficult for yourselves if you do cos its much harder to inject the new "Fresh" feeling back into the game once you have capped.
2) Have a plan already in place to address the issue of max level Vs grind once at cap
Rift's Planar Attunement System and ESO's Champion System are pretty good post lvl cap methods to add more interest and less grind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROv3GcBlP_w
Dailies are NOT a rewarding system, but can be a functional system if implemented in different stages - see point (7)
3) Get the class balance as close to perfect FROM THE START, your game and developer life will be immeasurably simpler and generally better if you can!
Good things to avoid are the Bright Wizard and Warrior Priest situations experienced in Warhammer Online, which despite there being "opposite" classes for the other faction never got close in reality to same level of paucity.
Great article here:
http://www.alteredgamer.com/warhammer-online/44427-what-went-wrong-with-is-it-a-failure/
The upshot being that IF YOU CAN'T balance classes under the "Class Mirror" system just fall back to a single set of classes available to everyone, you can always add more classes to the game from the start or later post release.....
The Holy Trinity of Tank/Heal/DPS should really be expanded to include true support classes and/or support/buff/debuff classes - so a Holy Quartet or Holy Quintet....
4) Time Vs reward - if it takes sooooo long to get/craft something that it isn't fun, it isn't a winning formula!
eg. WoW epic ring upgrade takes 900 Runes which takes something like 4-8 weeks to get depending on your raiding level (more time if your lower level raiding Vs less time if your more geared and raiding @ HC/Mythic levels). BUT its possible to RNG random loot that makes this obsolete or at least a diminishing reward if your raiding at those levels anyway.....
5) Quests, try and script quests so that they HAVE to be READ/Listened too - it makes the game more engaging. Many ppl may disagree but in my experience people don't really KNOW what they want.
Making quests circuitous and requiring many steps IS actually fun and ultimately rewarding, adding in a crafting quest/requirement like having someone craft it or having to unlock a part of an instance to get to the crafting station required to make it is also fantastic.
Avoid instanced quests as much as possible - ESO for example is terrible @ this!
6) Crafting should be a primary asset and not a tertiary thought to any class.
Community gathering/harvesting is GREAT!
Separate gear load outs for Adventuring/Crafting/Gathering is nice too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg5f-IXSmCs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiSsRIhhm1E
7) Zones - no one like a dead town, make your game so that there are reasons to continually revisit zones which were traditionally LOWER LEVEL
For example make low level towns/zones have content which only unlocks @ higher level tiers so that there is a continual influx of people into that area for different reasons.
Whether that is instances, unique events or perhaps new dailies or Reputation quests unlocked @ higher tiers.
8) DO NOT, EVER EVER!!, allow client side services run game critical elements or you will create a hack to win game - ArcheAge - if in doubt make it server side.
9) Combat, its really, REALLY HARD to come up with new combat ideas. Tab targeting is pretty old hat, but tried and tested and game mechanics are much easier to calculate off of this.
Something like Darkfall is much more complicated, not necessarily less rewarding, but the FPS is likely a barrier to many people deciding to play the game.
10) PVP - is insanely hard to balance.
Biggest issues are:
Balance
Stealth
Crowd Control/Stuns/Roots etc
Blocking
Immunities
Gearing
11) Instances, fixed mechanics on bosses is kinda tiresome. Do this when X does that repeat, repeat etc etc etc - introducing some randomness to the encounters would be a breath of fresh air! Maybe a pool of abilities with some linked to others which can randomly occur during a fight would keep players on their toes and keep it fun cos your never quite sure what order things are going to happen.
The "proving grounds" introduced in WoW WoD are very good, mostly keeps complete idiots out of your individual game, so your game play time is generally more fun. Could be expanded to different tiers or difficulties of dungeons/raids.
I get the Utherous name but agree with some of the other guys comments - searching Utherous is just BAD!
Sorry for the insanely long post, hope there are some useful points in there for you guys
I'm with you 100%!
Magician,
I am working on the forums as we speak! The login and register buttons should be where you expect them to be tonight. I have no idea why BBpress doesn't put them there by default!
Will take a look at the rest of your post once I get that ironed out!
Ok the forum stuff should be up and running! Top right has a Login and Register section!
Let me know if you have any more trouble!
But I guess we will soon have one... Won't we?
Looks interesting, glad to see they got the Steam greenlight
Def gonna keep an eye on this