Originally posted by Hohbein http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4705482.stm has anyone else seen this? its basically a video filmed in 2004 of some british troops beating the living daylights out of a few iraqi teenagers. now... the reason they were beating them to a pulp was because the kids were involved in a riot in which they had been stoning a compound. whats everyones view on this? personally i think its stupid to even be questioning it. at the end of the day the kids were out of line and breaking the law, and quite rightly should have been beaten. britain is turning into more and more of a soft-touch nation, and it sickens me to see left-wing tabloids whinging about the abuse of criminals in a country we're trying to protect.
While I do not like bullying of any sort, my view is the "other side" (i.e., insurgents, terrorists, etc) give no quarter. Get captured by them, you can expect to die. Period.
The good guys (i.e., coalition troops) occasionally lose their temper and slap a few folks around, and the world expects war crimes trials out of it. That's wrong, very wrong, in my opinion.
For all those people posting that "It's a war!" what do you expect?
I'd like to remind you all that operation "enduring freedom" was planned to liberate the Iraqi's (apparently), now it seems the American & British public believe it's a war!
If that's the case then the US & UK are fighting a war against Iraqi's in their own country, having invaded via an act of aggression (a grade A war crime) and having killed over 100,000 innocent civilians.
I'm sorry but there are only one set of terrorists here the US & UK governments - good luck to the resistance in Iraq although they are fighting against torture & chemical weapons deployed by a 21st century Nazi regime.
Must be really easy to judge people, what with that great view you guys have from up on your pulpit.
----------------------------- Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Originally posted by Bennjim For all those people posting that "It's a war!" what do you expect? I'd like to remind you all that operation "enduring freedom" was planned to liberate the Iraqi's (apparently), now it seems the American & British public believe it's a war! If that's the case then the US & UK are fighting a war against Iraqi's in their own country, having invaded via an act of aggression (a grade A war crime) and having killed over 100,000 innocent civilians. I'm sorry but there are only one set of terrorists here the US & UK governments - good luck to the resistance in Iraq although they are fighting against torture & chemical weapons deployed by a 21st century Nazi regime.
Naw, you're upside down in your thinking, your "contrarian" thinking. Fact is, every force in power in Iraq, except for the recently elected government, was a conquering force. Hussein "seized" power. The insurgents and terrorists want to "seize" power. The Sunni's are angry because they no longer share in "seized" power. The Americans and British "seized" power from Hussein and gave it back to the Iraqi people.
Best measure of how the Iraqi's are taking all of this can probably be drawn from looking at their extreme voter turnout in elections. The Americans and British are a godsend to that region of the world and I would bet that in 50 years, there are monuments to George Bush and that he will be viewed as a founder of Iraqi freedom.
Think of it; 50 years in the future when Islamic extremism has declined, when the Middle East is free, truly free in terms of free speech and expression of political freedom, do you really think they will look back upon the Americans and British as terrorists? Naw, they'll look upon the Islamicists as terrorists and be glad they are free of them. Put yourself in their place. You want some crazed Islamicist running your life or would you want to be able to speak your thoughts without fear of reprisal and go to the voting booth now and then to cast your vote?
Originally posted by Billius8 Think of it; 50 years in the future when Islamic extremism has declined, when the Middle East is free, truly free in terms of free speech and expression of political freedom, do you really think they will look back upon the Americans and British as terrorists? Naw, they'll look upon the Islamicists as terrorists and be glad they are free of them. Put yourself in their place. You want some crazed Islamicist running your life or would you want to be able to speak your thoughts without fear of reprisal and go to the voting booth now and then to cast your vote?
History is, and always will be, written by the winners. I seriously doubt the world will see any statues of George Bush, or any other member of the administration, raised in reverance. The war is as it is, and whether you believe it was right or wrong to begin with is irrelevant to this conversation. The question here is, will extremists acts of violence or the threat of torture on the part of occupying forces help the cause of freedom?
The simple answer is, no. Even if these methods produce more effective results in dealing with insurgents, it ultimately creates a rift between the occupiers and the people they are trying to liberate. Speaking from personal experiance, I am much less likely to take good advice from a person I think is a violent jackass than I would from someone I respect. The same basic concept applies to how efficiently the occupying forces can establish a free and functional form of government. The occupiers need the full support of those they are trying to liberate, or the government that will be set up is just going to be forcibly overturned again in the future.
Originally posted by Billius8 Think of it; 50 years in the future when Islamic extremism has declined, when the Middle East is free, truly free in terms of free speech and expression of political freedom, do you really think they will look back upon the Americans and British as terrorists? Naw, they'll look upon the Islamicists as terrorists and be glad they are free of them. Put yourself in their place. You want some crazed Islamicist running your life or would you want to be able to speak your thoughts without fear of reprisal and go to the voting booth now and then to cast your vote?
History is, and always will be, written by the winners. I seriously doubt the world will see any statues of George Bush, or any other member of the administration, raised in reverance. The war is as it is, and whether you believe it was right or wrong to begin with is irrelevant to this conversation. The question here is, will extremists acts of violence or the threat of torture on the part of occupying forces help the cause of freedom?
The simple answer is, no. Even if these methods produce more effective results in dealing with insurgents, it ultimately creates a rift between the occupiers and the people they are trying to liberate. Speaking from personal experiance, I am much less likely to take good advice from a person I think is a violent jackass than I would from someone I respect. The same basic concept applies to how efficiently the occupying forces can establish a free and functional form of government. The occupiers need the full support of those they are trying to liberate, or the government that will be set up is just going to be forcibly overturned again in the future.
Maybe we can draw from similar historical examples. Japan maybe. Violently overthrown, even nuked a couple of times, now revere their conqueror Douglas MacArthur (who wrote their constitution), are a much more dynamic economy and freer society than they were under the old feudal model. Nah, the Middle East will likewise revere George Bush in the future, maybe a few decades from now, maybe a lot sooner.
You have to realize how it must suck to live under Islamic extremism (or feudalism) and what a contrast it is to shift gears into full-fledged freedom. The Middle East will see a renaissance not unlike what Japan has seen in the last 50 years, and they will write and evaluate their own history.
Sure there are some diehards than want it "the old way", but the younger generation will see opportunities and flourish because of them. The future of the Middle East will be much brighter under democracy and capitalism than under Islamicists and dictators, and it takes war (unfortunately) or 500 years of waiting to make that transition happen.
There are criminals in every group, every institution.
Those images offend me, however, the way some peoples keep trashing the Britishs is annoying me.
The Britishs are strong supporters of the Iraq thingy, they never start it. They do their duty, they maintain and help stuff relatively nicely. The Brits are short of the French the peoples I find the most fun to tease, for the sake of teasing them! The Britishs make that Iraq conflict a LOT better and it cost them a lot. If the US was alone there, it would be far worser for the Iraqis peoples. I am happy Canada is not there, might teach those arrogants southern neighbors about responsabilities of their actions, but I also can show humility and respect toward the British who act, again, the most nobly among everyone in that conflict.
Yet, on this site, British endless bashing is fine. When I write 1 post about how I feel about the Muslims who write "Behead" against westerners, I am labelled as a "Hate message" doer.
As an individual, even if I would never show respect toward any British authority representative for the sake of teasing them, my support is unqestionnable and total (I would prolly insist on getting stuff resolve at a French ambassy should there be no Canadian ambassy in a country I would visit, just to show you how weird I can be, I know I should report to a UK ambassy in such a situation, yet...I would insist at the French ambassy and act outraged and everything if they send me to the Brits hehe).
Anyone supporting the Muslims been offended against Denmark should be .... *imagine a Hate related comment of the worst type*.
I am sure that those soldiers would be treated harshly and severly, unlike the US GI who commit similar atrocities, for some reasons, the US can't judge their soldiers who commit crimes, they protect criminals. The Brits are going to be fair and harsh toward those war criminals, have no doubt.
I am not afraid to fire at my own camp, but I am also not afraid to support it when they deserve it. Some folks like to do some general bashing. But of course, you should not listen to me, me who profane "hate message" at folks supporting "beheaders".
PS: To the guy saying Middle East will prolly have Bush in high esteem...that remain to be seen and proven. US have shown more interest in the natural ressources of Iraq (oil) than in the preservation of their museem and library. When the US war criminal walk free after 2 years of jail for some crime that would have been a 25 years if commit against a US citizen (or even death penalty), I am quite unsure they would respect Bush. Maybe I am wrong and the US will manage to act nicely and selfishlessly in Iraq, be fair and everything...but I will believe it when I see it. It is not impossible, but the start is far from ideal, many misshaps. Both Japan and Germany have an economic boost, period of fairness....the way the Bush administration is handling the contracts in the Middle East raise many question...I am extremely unsure about how it will end.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I couldnt agree more about the future being more brighter. U.S. Troops and British troops have no reason to be there in the first place. And I disagree with most users posting racist and ignorent facts what they think of iraq, British, or any other kind. Basicly the economy and system is completly messed up. I mean go to the U.S. and go to the schools or anything like this you will see teens doing drugs and no one even cares.
Im still in high school and ive seen just a bunch of monkeys jumping around the place. Its a bad name for the country.
I cant say anymore what im mostly saying is the system and goverment messed things up. Thats basicly why those british troops were doing.
Liberate and bring peace to iraq? I think there trying to torment the iraqis. There is alot of lie's in the U.S. goverment right now. Most of you will be amazed in the future world sooner or later.
Anyway the system is Alienated is what I just need to say.
Most of the U.S. troops are tormenting the iraqis and not giving them mercy. I mean you cant treat a prisoners of war like this. Anyway war just leads to problems like these. This is what George W. Bush wants? A war president he says. And I just cant belive theres people who support him.
You know what I find incredibly ironic about posts like these is that just after 9/11 every one in the country was calling for action. They want Bin Ladens head. Now years later people want to stand on their high horse and spout things as if they are so well informed. I've spoken to several people including my brother who spent over a year there. When they talk to the people they are glad we are helping them. Saddam killed thousands of his own people just for disagreeing with him. He has been a murderer since his early adult hood. Any way the point is that after this much time to just pull out would be insanely rediculous and it would be saying that everyone that died, sorry but you died in vain. There was no point to you being there and dieing. If we finish this then there is a point. As far as the abuse, the spot light is on us and Brittain but ask yourself this, what do you think they do to their POW. Its not cookies and orange juice with a nice Disney movie. Two wrongs don't make a right, i know that, we should be standing as an example but these things happen and we usually take care of it. The thing is that you can't let a 5 people make you think the whole army or country is that way. Thats just another form of racism or prejudice.
well put rekkor even though it really did sicken me just to watch this...well...if there really were any allied pow's in iraqi camps, the iraqis would do exactly the same as the british did. Shit happens punish those that need punishing and move on. those boys got what they had coming-- throwing the homemade nades-- or what ever they did. they could have easily hurt the soldiers and were punished rather harshly for it.....
I hope some day we can all put aside our racisms and prejudices and just laugh at people
Originally posted by rekkor You know what I find incredibly ironic about posts like these is that just after 9/11 every one in the country was calling for action. They want Bin Ladens head. Now years later people want to stand on their high horse and spout things as if they are so well informed. I've spoken to several people including my brother who spent over a year there. When they talk to the people they are glad we are helping them. Saddam killed thousands of his own people just for disagreeing with him. He has been a murderer since his early adult hood. Any way the point is that after this much time to just pull out would be insanely rediculous and it would be saying that everyone that died, sorry but you died in vain. There was no point to you being there and dieing. If we finish this then there is a point. As far as the abuse, the spot light is on us and Brittain but ask yourself this, what do you think they do to their POW. Its not cookies and orange juice with a nice Disney movie. Two wrongs don't make a right, i know that, we should be standing as an example but these things happen and we usually take care of it. The thing is that you can't let a 5 people make you think the whole army or country is that way. Thats just another form of racism or prejudice.
Bin Laden was the suspect for 9/11 and was said to be in Afghanistan, now God knows...
Now years later we are in Iraq for "Weapons of Mass Destruction" we never found. Sure we found Saddam but we HAVE to go, and you know why? Because "Liberating" them is as likely as some foreign military coming in here and turning us into a theocracy.
______________________________ "When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!" -cheer leading, flag waving American
Originally posted by Jackcolt Is it just me, or are the british soldiers equipped with L85A1 rifles? That's neat... oh well All violence is bad. And I certainly don't endorse or think what the british soldiers did was right. But sometimes, fighting fire with fire is the only solution. If you want peace prepare for war. Some people will continue to keep making violence till they've actually experienced what kind of trouble they are causing. Anyways, I've watched the videos, and they aren't being beated up that bad. It's no way near full strength, and they aren't punched in their faces. Also, it's really easy to point fingers. You don't really know the background story, the stress, the rage and violence those soldiers were put up with.
Yup thats the Standard British army rifle, we call em the sa80?
Cause i was calling em the L851 and my mate whose in the army goes yeah the sa80
My left nut they were "abused" If they had been watching the video you will see the lil s.o.bs get an asswhoopin but they are making it out to be like another prison abuse scandal. Now let me tell what really happends to enemy combatants when they decide to show force (rocks are not a sign of peace) had they not been American thoes kids wouldn't prolly have lived to tell the tale.
All in all ya can't win for loseing when it comes to the press.
Originally posted by Phoenixs You didn't read grasp what I was saying in my posts did you baff? You posts seem to reply to posts that I don't even recognize. "I assume by read properly you mean "please agree with everything I say regardless of it's relavence or credibility"." I did not write anything that would suggest that I mean that. It's like you reply to the words and not the meaning behind them. Example: "And seabass2003. Soldiers have laws to follow. Just like all us others. There are no excuses to break the laws." Where in that sentence do I say that soldier have to SAME laws to follow? Soldiers have to follow THEIR laws, just like we have to follow OUR laws. <- That is what I'm saying in that sentence. Your laws do not apply. That video is not shot in Germany. Let's make a test. This is what I mean in a nutshell: Violence does no good. Violence breeds violence and hate. A lasting peace can only be built with peace. By just beating anyone who opposes us we will never achieve peace. We might keep them in bay for a couple of months, but the violence will have created fear and hate that will emerge again. Fundamentally wrong. You assume that all people can be reasoned with without violence. This is a suicide instinct. Creating fear is a necessary evil. There will never be world peace. you can give me no historical example of this occouring anywhere in the animal kingdom. We can't build a peaceful world on the foundation of fear and hate. You can't build a peaceful world. The best you can hope for is to keep a lid on it, which is what those soldiers are doing.
Do you manage to reply to that without accusing me of all kinds of shit? If not the moderators should lock this thread already. Grow up. That video isn't used to indetifie any ring leaders. This is standard operational tactics by all riot squads both in the U.K. police and Army. Most likely it's the same in Germany too. That is a "brag" video. Just like the one of the security guards killing civilians on the highway in Bagdad, or the Americans torturing the prisoners. The video was recorded in 2004 and brought home to the UK where they showed it to their fellow soldiers. After that it was leaked by someone who didn't like what he saw. It was leaked to a newspaper for money. Would they do that (Bring it home and show it) if it was meant to identifie ring leaders? And how the guy who records speaks doesn't actually suggest that he is doing a "job" by recording it. Why would he?
And wouldn't it be normal with some kind of radio contact between the "ground" troops and the guy recording if he was picking out ring leaders? Maybe he is. And since when do you use a video to identifie people, when it's all happening live? Since every riot since video was invented. Before then police used regular cameras (and still do).
The legal system is arresting people over this video. I don't think they make arrests with no reason.
Arresting someone does not make them guilty in the eyes of the law. It's not for the police (or you) to decide. All legal judgements will be made in court. Perhaps you have heard of the term, "innocent until proven guilty"?
Originally posted by Bennjim For all those people posting that "It's a war!" what do you expect? I'd like to remind you all that operation "enduring freedom" was planned to liberate the Iraqi's (apparently), now it seems the American & British public believe it's a war! What exactly did you think a "liberation" entailed? If that's the case then the US & UK are fighting a war against Iraqi's in their own country, You noticed that? having invaded via an act of aggression (a grade A war crime) and having killed over 100,000 innocent civilians. We all understand the hypocracy of war propaganda. I'm sorry but there are only one set of terrorists here the US & UK governments - good luck to the resistance in Iraq although they are fighting against torture & chemical weapons deployed by a 21st century Nazi regime.
The rights and wrongs of the polictical descision have no relevance to behaviour of those soldiers. They are not gasing Jews they are arresting and subduing rioters in a hostile enviroment.
Please try and judge them for their own actions not the actions of Blair and Bush.
Naw, you're upside down in your thinking, your "contrarian" thinking. Fact is, every force in power in Iraq, except for the recently elected government, was a conquering force. Hussein "seized" power. The insurgents and terrorists want to "seize" power. The Sunni's are angry because they no longer share in "seized" power. The Americans and British "seized" power from Hussein and gave it back to the Iraqi people. I agree apart from the bit about the U.S. an the U.K. having given back power to an elceted government. It's a puppet government, the U.k. and U.S. forces still operate outside of Iraqi law, and since no Ba'athist party memebr was allowed to stand by the coalition it was not a free and full election, but rather a rigged one. Best measure of how the Iraqi's are taking all of this can probably be drawn from looking at their extreme voter turnout in elections. The Americans and British are a godsend to that region of the world and I would bet that in 50 years, there are monuments to George Bush and that he will be viewed as a founder of Iraqi freedom.
Think of it; 50 years in the future when Islamic extremism has declined, when the Middle East is free, truly free in terms of free speech and expression of political freedom, do you really think they will look back upon the Americans and British as terrorists? Naw, they'll look upon the Islamicists as terrorists and be glad they are free of them. Put yourself in their place. You want some crazed Islamicist running your life or would you want to be able to speak your thoughts without fear of reprisal and go to the voting booth now and then to cast your vote?
None of the thousands of occupations, liberations or regime changes in the Middle East have ever done this before. It would be nice if the invasion of Iraq resulted in this, but I wouldn't place any bets. It might be more sensible to lower you expectations of what these troops can realistically achieve. Part of the reason why so many people are upset to see these kinds of images is that it contravenes the fluffly bunny propaganda they choose to believe.
Similalrly to the "world peace" guy...
If you set your troops an unachieveable objective they must fail.
Maybe we can draw from similar historical examples. Japan maybe. Violently overthrown, even nuked a couple of times, now revere their conqueror Douglas MacArthur (who wrote their constitution), are a much more dynamic economy and freer society than they were under the old feudal model. Nah, the Middle East will likewise revere George Bush in the future, maybe a few decades from now, maybe a lot sooner. You haven't been speaking to many Japanese people then. They Hate MacArthur, they don't revere him at all. There Economy is greatly reduced from it's pre-War empire of half of Asia. Their Society is now, as then, perhaps the most tightly controlled and regulated in the world.
You have to realize how it must suck to live under Islamic extremism (or feudalism) and what a contrast it is to shift gears into full-fledged freedom. The Middle East will see a renaissance not unlike what Japan has seen in the last 50 years, and they will write and evaluate their own history.
Like Japan, if they do , it will not be of their choosing.
Sure there are some diehards than want it "the old way", but the younger generation will see opportunities and flourish because of them. The future of the Middle East will be much brighter under democracy and capitalism than under Islamicists and dictators, and it takes war (unfortunately) or 500 years of waiting to make that transition happen.
If you give a middle eastern democracy (Israel, Iran, Palestine) they will vote for the party of war. (They already have capitalism)
The people want war. Democracy doesn't change that, it just makes it harder for us to convince the government that war is not in their best intrests.
If you want Middle Easterners to become as subjugated as the Japanese, you will have to nuke them too. It's fear that subjugated Japan, not the Japanese's desire for freedom.
Originally posted by Anofalye The Britishs are strong supporters of the Iraq thingy, they never start it. They do their duty, they maintain and help stuff relatively nicely. The Brits are short of the French the peoples I find the most fun to tease, for the sake of teasing them! The Britishs make that Iraq conflict a LOT better and it cost them a lot. If the US was alone there, it would be far worser for the Iraqis peoples. I am happy Canada is not there, might teach those arrogants southern neighbors about responsabilities of their actions, but I also can show humility and respect toward the British who act, again, the most nobly among everyone in that conflict.
Yet, on this site, British endless bashing is fine. When I write 1 post about how I feel about the Muslims who write "Behead" against westerners, I am labelled as a "Hate message" doer.
As an individual, even if I would never show respect toward any British authority representative for the sake of teasing them, my support is unqestionnable and total (I would prolly insist on getting stuff resolve at a French ambassy should there be no Canadian ambassy in a country I would visit, just to show you how weird I can be, I know I should report to a UK ambassy in such a situation, yet...I would insist at the French ambassy and act outraged and everything if they send me to the Brits hehe).
Anyone supporting the Muslims been offended against Denmark should be .... *imagine a Hate related comment of the worst type*.
I am sure that those soldiers would be treated harshly and severly, unlike the US GI who commit similar atrocities, for some reasons, the US can't judge their soldiers who commit crimes, they protect criminals. The Brits are going to be fair and harsh toward those war criminals, have no doubt.
I am not afraid to fire at my own camp, but I am also not afraid to support it when they deserve it. Some folks like to do some general bashing. But of course, you should not listen to me, me who profane "hate message" at folks supporting "beheaders".
PS: To the guy saying Middle East will prolly have Bush in high esteem...that remain to be seen and proven. US have shown more interest in the natural ressources of Iraq (oil) than in the preservation of their museem and library. When the US war criminal walk free after 2 years of jail for some crime that would have been a 25 years if commit against a US citizen (or even death penalty), I am quite unsure they would respect Bush. Maybe I am wrong and the US will manage to act nicely and selfishlessly in Iraq, be fair and everything...but I will believe it when I see it. It is not impossible, but the start is far from ideal, many misshaps. Both Japan and Germany have an economic boost, period of fairness....the way the Bush administration is handling the contracts in the Middle East raise many question...I am extremely unsure about how it will end.
The Iraq war sparked the largest civil protest in the history of Britain.
The Democratically elected government of Great Britain voted not to go.
The domestic population are arguably majoritavly against the invasion of Iraq. But it's too late to worry about that now. We're in it. We're in it to win it.
Originally posted by rekkor You know what I find incredibly ironic about posts like these is that just after 9/11 every one in the country was calling for action. They want Bin Ladens head. ?! What the F has Iraq got to do with Bin Laden? Bin Laden offered to liberate Kuwait too. He and Saddam were enemies.
Now years later people want to stand on their high horse and spout things as if they are so well informed. I've spoken to several people including my brother who spent over a year there. When they talk to the people they are glad we are helping them. Saddam killed thousands of his own people just for disagreeing with him. He has been a murderer since his early adult hood. Any way the point is that after this much time to just pull out would be insanely rediculous and it would be saying that everyone that died, sorry but you died in vain. There was no point to you being there and dieing. If we finish this then there is a point. As far as the abuse, the spot light is on us and Brittain but ask yourself this, what do you think they do to their POW. Its not cookies and orange juice with a nice Disney movie. Two wrongs don't make a right, i know that, we should be standing as an example but these things happen and we usually take care of it. The thing is that you can't let a 5 people make you think the whole army or country is that way. Thats just another form of racism or prejudice.
The laws OF the soldiers apply for them. Just like the laws where I LIVE apply for me. Just like ME the soldiers have to follow LAWS. I'm not saying that they have to follow the same laws! They have to keep themself to their OWN laws. Just like I have to keep myself to MY laws. You get me now? Or do I have to posts another 3 posts to try to explain it.
It's allowed to hope for a better world. And it's allowed to work for a better world. I trying to do both. And I believe that you can't do it with fear. Fear doesn't lead to anything good. If you believe there can't be world peace, then do so. But I believe that there can be, and it can be without fear and violence. It just depends on the attitude we start working on it with. If everyone thinks like you there won't be world peace, but I don't think all do.
"And wouldn't it be normal with some kind of radio contact between the "ground" troops and the guy recording if he was picking out ring leaders?
Maybe he is."
No he isn't. He isn't using any radio contact in the movie. You clearly hear that he isn't.
"Would they do that (Bring it home and show it) if it was meant to identifie ring leaders? And how the guy who records speaks doesn't actually suggest that he is doing a "job" by recording it.
Why would he? "
Would you speak like a maniac on a tape for work. Would you speak like that on a tape that most likely supervisors will look at (If it's a tactics used, I don't think it is)?
The movie neither has time/date or anything that would suggest this is something "official".
"Arresting someone does not make them guilty in the eyes of the law. It's not for the police (or you) to decide. All legal judgements will be made in court. Perhaps you have heard of the term, "innocent until proven guilty"?"
Yes I have heard of that term, we all have. But why is the movie investigated and arrestments made? Because the MP likes to have some fun in their spare time?
There's always a 'bad' element to every army in the world. Lets face it, if you train thousands of people to be cold blooded killers you're always going to end up with a few nutters. I live in a garrison town and there's often trouble with drunken soldiers, everyone knows they tend to get violent from time to time........
Most of you have it all wrong about "finishing the job" in iraq. Sure Saddam killed many of his own people and yes he has to be stoped but what are most of the soliders doing to the civiliens of iraq?!
I seen video's of U.S. soilders actually tormenting, laughing and taking pictures of the prisoners of war and also maulsting(excuse my spelling) them and making video's of these. Just because there the enemy doesnt me we need to give them all hell.
George W. Bush is nothing but a wimp. He sends our troops to bring peace to iraq? I mean he brought them their and the troops have NO idea what there doing over there. You think bush cares about the rest of America not North Amercia but the rest of Amercia? You got it all wrong.
Anyway I can see most people dont understand the situation here so I wont really get invovled with this. Our goverment is really just telling you lie's especaily our scared wimpy president who does nothing for us.
Most people tell me this war is acting like the Vietnam war and I disagree and agree about that.
Originally posted by Phoenixs The laws OF the soldiers apply for them. Just like the laws where I LIVE apply for me. Just like ME the soldiers have to follow LAWS. I'm not saying that they have to follow the same laws! They have to keep themself to their OWN laws. Just like I have to keep myself to MY laws. You get me now? Or do I have to posts another 3 posts to try to explain it. post as many as you feel you need. It's allowed to hope for a better world. And it's allowed to work for a better world. I trying to do both. And I believe that you can't do it with fear. Fear doesn't lead to anything good. If you believe there can't be world peace, then do so. But I believe that there can be, and it can be without fear and violence. It just depends on the attitude we start working on it with. If everyone thinks like you there won't be world peace, but I don't think all do. "And wouldn't it be normal with some kind of radio contact between the "ground" troops and the guy recording if he was picking out ring leaders? Maybe he is." No he isn't. He isn't using any radio contact in the movie. You clearly hear that he isn't. AAH I see, you have to ba actually transmitting to be in radio contact. Now I get it. "Hi I'm currently in postiton filming". 2 seconds later. "Yup i'm still in position filming". 4 seconfds later "I'm filming, over." 6 seconds later "roger wilco I'm still filming over". Why would a cameraman be jamming friendly forces radio during combat? Not actively speaking into a radio constantly doesn't mean you don't have one or that it isn't switched on. "Would they do that (Bring it home and show it) if it was meant to identifie ring leaders? And how the guy who records speaks doesn't actually suggest that he is doing a "job" by recording it. Why would he? " Would you speak like a maniac on a tape for work. Would you speak like that on a tape that most likely supervisors will look at (If it's a tactics used, I don't think it is)? All squaddies talk like that. So do football supporters. So do builders. So do rugby fans. Boxing fans too. The movie neither has time/date or anything that would suggest this is something "official". A good point well made. "Arresting someone does not make them guilty in the eyes of the law. It's not for the police (or you) to decide. All legal judgements will be made in court. Perhaps you have heard of the term, "innocent until proven guilty"?" Yes I have heard of that term, we all have. But why is the movie investigated and arrestments made? Because the MP likes to have some fun in their spare time?
If there is a complaint it will be investigated.
The images are bad propaganda and must be addressed.
British forces are signed up to the International Criminal Courts anyone in the world can make a complaint. And they will investigate.
Without an effective complaints process, instead of incidents like this, you get incidents like Abu Gharaib and massacres like in Kosovo.
The images are bad propaganda and must be addressed.
Comments
While I do not like bullying of any sort, my view is the "other side" (i.e., insurgents, terrorists, etc) give no quarter. Get captured by them, you can expect to die. Period.
The good guys (i.e., coalition troops) occasionally lose their temper and slap a few folks around, and the world expects war crimes trials out of it. That's wrong, very wrong, in my opinion.
For all those people posting that "It's a war!" what do you expect?
I'd like to remind you all that operation "enduring freedom" was planned to liberate the Iraqi's (apparently), now it seems the American & British public believe it's a war!
If that's the case then the US & UK are fighting a war against Iraqi's in their own country, having invaded via an act of aggression (a grade A war crime) and having killed over 100,000 innocent civilians.
I'm sorry but there are only one set of terrorists here the US & UK governments - good luck to the resistance in Iraq although they are fighting against torture & chemical weapons deployed by a 21st century Nazi regime.
Must be really easy to judge people, what with that great view you guys have from up on your pulpit.
-----------------------------
Listen Asmodeeus, seven years ago, Ultima Online didn't even have those pathetic "quests" that you refer to or those "professions" of ninja, samurai, necromancer, and paladin. Nor did it have any of the neon crap, or bug mounts. It didn't even have any "combat moves." You turned on attack and jousted with simplistic swings. It was a better game then. if you can't guess why then just uninstall the thing and move along. - Crabby
Naw, you're upside down in your thinking, your "contrarian" thinking. Fact is, every force in power in Iraq, except for the recently elected government, was a conquering force. Hussein "seized" power. The insurgents and terrorists want to "seize" power. The Sunni's are angry because they no longer share in "seized" power. The Americans and British "seized" power from Hussein and gave it back to the Iraqi people.
Best measure of how the Iraqi's are taking all of this can probably be drawn from looking at their extreme voter turnout in elections. The Americans and British are a godsend to that region of the world and I would bet that in 50 years, there are monuments to George Bush and that he will be viewed as a founder of Iraqi freedom.
Think of it; 50 years in the future when Islamic extremism has declined, when the Middle East is free, truly free in terms of free speech and expression of political freedom, do you really think they will look back upon the Americans and British as terrorists? Naw, they'll look upon the Islamicists as terrorists and be glad they are free of them. Put yourself in their place. You want some crazed Islamicist running your life or would you want to be able to speak your thoughts without fear of reprisal and go to the voting booth now and then to cast your vote?
History is, and always will be, written by the winners. I seriously doubt the world will see any statues of George Bush, or any other member of the administration, raised in reverance. The war is as it is, and whether you believe it was right or wrong to begin with is irrelevant to this conversation. The question here is, will extremists acts of violence or the threat of torture on the part of occupying forces help the cause of freedom?
The simple answer is, no. Even if these methods produce more effective results in dealing with insurgents, it ultimately creates a rift between the occupiers and the people they are trying to liberate. Speaking from personal experiance, I am much less likely to take good advice from a person I think is a violent jackass than I would from someone I respect. The same basic concept applies to how efficiently the occupying forces can establish a free and functional form of government. The occupiers need the full support of those they are trying to liberate, or the government that will be set up is just going to be forcibly overturned again in the future.
History is, and always will be, written by the winners. I seriously doubt the world will see any statues of George Bush, or any other member of the administration, raised in reverance. The war is as it is, and whether you believe it was right or wrong to begin with is irrelevant to this conversation. The question here is, will extremists acts of violence or the threat of torture on the part of occupying forces help the cause of freedom?
The simple answer is, no. Even if these methods produce more effective results in dealing with insurgents, it ultimately creates a rift between the occupiers and the people they are trying to liberate. Speaking from personal experiance, I am much less likely to take good advice from a person I think is a violent jackass than I would from someone I respect. The same basic concept applies to how efficiently the occupying forces can establish a free and functional form of government. The occupiers need the full support of those they are trying to liberate, or the government that will be set up is just going to be forcibly overturned again in the future.
Maybe we can draw from similar historical examples. Japan maybe. Violently overthrown, even nuked a couple of times, now revere their conqueror Douglas MacArthur (who wrote their constitution), are a much more dynamic economy and freer society than they were under the old feudal model. Nah, the Middle East will likewise revere George Bush in the future, maybe a few decades from now, maybe a lot sooner.
You have to realize how it must suck to live under Islamic extremism (or feudalism) and what a contrast it is to shift gears into full-fledged freedom. The Middle East will see a renaissance not unlike what Japan has seen in the last 50 years, and they will write and evaluate their own history.
Sure there are some diehards than want it "the old way", but the younger generation will see opportunities and flourish because of them. The future of the Middle East will be much brighter under democracy and capitalism than under Islamicists and dictators, and it takes war (unfortunately) or 500 years of waiting to make that transition happen.
There are criminals in every group, every institution.
Those images offend me, however, the way some peoples keep trashing the Britishs is annoying me.
The Britishs are strong supporters of the Iraq thingy, they never start it. They do their duty, they maintain and help stuff relatively nicely. The Brits are short of the French the peoples I find the most fun to tease, for the sake of teasing them! The Britishs make that Iraq conflict a LOT better and it cost them a lot. If the US was alone there, it would be far worser for the Iraqis peoples. I am happy Canada is not there, might teach those arrogants southern neighbors about responsabilities of their actions, but I also can show humility and respect toward the British who act, again, the most nobly among everyone in that conflict.
Yet, on this site, British endless bashing is fine. When I write 1 post about how I feel about the Muslims who write "Behead" against westerners, I am labelled as a "Hate message" doer.
As an individual, even if I would never show respect toward any British authority representative for the sake of teasing them, my support is unqestionnable and total (I would prolly insist on getting stuff resolve at a French ambassy should there be no Canadian ambassy in a country I would visit, just to show you how weird I can be, I know I should report to a UK ambassy in such a situation, yet...I would insist at the French ambassy and act outraged and everything if they send me to the Brits hehe).
Anyone supporting the Muslims been offended against Denmark should be .... *imagine a Hate related comment of the worst type*.
I am sure that those soldiers would be treated harshly and severly, unlike the US GI who commit similar atrocities, for some reasons, the US can't judge their soldiers who commit crimes, they protect criminals. The Brits are going to be fair and harsh toward those war criminals, have no doubt.
I am not afraid to fire at my own camp, but I am also not afraid to support it when they deserve it. Some folks like to do some general bashing. But of course, you should not listen to me, me who profane "hate message" at folks supporting "beheaders".
PS: To the guy saying Middle East will prolly have Bush in high esteem...that remain to be seen and proven. US have shown more interest in the natural ressources of Iraq (oil) than in the preservation of their museem and library. When the US war criminal walk free after 2 years of jail for some crime that would have been a 25 years if commit against a US citizen (or even death penalty), I am quite unsure they would respect Bush. Maybe I am wrong and the US will manage to act nicely and selfishlessly in Iraq, be fair and everything...but I will believe it when I see it. It is not impossible, but the start is far from ideal, many misshaps. Both Japan and Germany have an economic boost, period of fairness....the way the Bush administration is handling the contracts in the Middle East raise many question...I am extremely unsure about how it will end.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I couldnt agree more about the future being more brighter. U.S. Troops and British troops have no reason to be there in the first place. And I disagree with most users posting racist and ignorent facts what they think of iraq, British, or any other kind. Basicly the economy and system is completly messed up. I mean go to the U.S. and go to the schools or anything like this you will see teens doing drugs and no one even cares.
Im still in high school and ive seen just a bunch of monkeys jumping around the place. Its a bad name for the country.
I cant say anymore what im mostly saying is the system and goverment messed things up. Thats basicly why those british troops were doing.
Liberate and bring peace to iraq? I think there trying to torment the iraqis. There is alot of lie's in the U.S. goverment right now. Most of you will be amazed in the future world sooner or later.
Anyway the system is Alienated is what I just need to say.
Most of the U.S. troops are tormenting the iraqis and not giving them mercy. I mean you cant treat a prisoners of war like this. Anyway war just leads to problems like these. This is what George W. Bush wants? A war president he says. And I just cant belive theres people who support him.
You know what I find incredibly ironic about posts like these is that just after 9/11 every one in the country was calling for action. They want Bin Ladens head. Now years later people want to stand on their high horse and spout things as if they are so well informed. I've spoken to several people including my brother who spent over a year there. When they talk to the people they are glad we are helping them. Saddam killed thousands of his own people just for disagreeing with him. He has been a murderer since his early adult hood. Any way the point is that after this much time to just pull out would be insanely rediculous and it would be saying that everyone that died, sorry but you died in vain. There was no point to you being there and dieing. If we finish this then there is a point. As far as the abuse, the spot light is on us and Brittain but ask yourself this, what do you think they do to their POW. Its not cookies and orange juice with a nice Disney movie. Two wrongs don't make a right, i know that, we should be standing as an example but these things happen and we usually take care of it. The thing is that you can't let a 5 people make you think the whole army or country is that way. Thats just another form of racism or prejudice.
well put rekkor even though it really did sicken me just to watch this...well...if there really were any allied pow's in iraqi camps, the iraqis would do exactly the same as the british did. Shit happens punish those that need punishing and move on. those boys got what they had coming-- throwing the homemade nades-- or what ever they did. they could have easily hurt the soldiers and were punished rather harshly for it.....
I hope some day we can all put aside our racisms and prejudices and just laugh at people
Bin Laden was the suspect for 9/11 and was said to be in Afghanistan, now God knows...
Now years later we are in Iraq for "Weapons of Mass Destruction" we never found. Sure we found Saddam but we HAVE to go, and you know why? Because "Liberating" them is as likely as some foreign military coming in here and turning us into a theocracy.
______________________________
"When Saddam flew that plane into those buildings, I knew it was time to kick some Iranian ass!"
-cheer leading, flag waving American
Yup thats the Standard British army rifle, we call em the sa80?
Cause i was calling em the L851 and my mate whose in the army goes yeah the sa80
---------------------------------------------
Don't click here...no2
My left nut they were "abused" If they had been watching the video you will see the lil s.o.bs get an asswhoopin but they are making it out to be like another prison abuse scandal. Now let me tell what really happends to enemy combatants when they decide to show force (rocks are not a sign of peace) had they not been American thoes kids wouldn't prolly have lived to tell the tale.
All in all ya can't win for loseing when it comes to the press.
It..Burns..
The rights and wrongs of the polictical descision have no relevance to behaviour of those soldiers. They are not gasing Jews they are arresting and subduing rioters in a hostile enviroment.
Please try and judge them for their own actions not the actions of Blair and Bush.
Think of it; 50 years in the future when Islamic extremism has declined, when the Middle East is free, truly free in terms of free speech and expression of political freedom, do you really think they will look back upon the Americans and British as terrorists? Naw, they'll look upon the Islamicists as terrorists and be glad they are free of them. Put yourself in their place. You want some crazed Islamicist running your life or would you want to be able to speak your thoughts without fear of reprisal and go to the voting booth now and then to cast your vote?
None of the thousands of occupations, liberations or regime changes in the Middle East have ever done this before. It would be nice if the invasion of Iraq resulted in this, but I wouldn't place any bets.
It might be more sensible to lower you expectations of what these troops can realistically achieve. Part of the reason why so many people are upset to see these kinds of images is that it contravenes the fluffly bunny propaganda they choose to believe.
Similalrly to the "world peace" guy...
If you set your troops an unachieveable objective they must fail.
You have to realize how it must suck to live under Islamic extremism (or feudalism) and what a contrast it is to shift gears into full-fledged freedom. The Middle East will see a renaissance not unlike what Japan has seen in the last 50 years, and they will write and evaluate their own history.
Like Japan, if they do , it will not be of their choosing.
Sure there are some diehards than want it "the old way", but the younger generation will see opportunities and flourish because of them. The future of the Middle East will be much brighter under democracy and capitalism than under Islamicists and dictators, and it takes war (unfortunately) or 500 years of waiting to make that transition happen.
If you give a middle eastern democracy (Israel, Iran, Palestine) they will vote for the party of war. (They already have capitalism)
The people want war. Democracy doesn't change that, it just makes it harder for us to convince the government that war is not in their best intrests.
If you want Middle Easterners to become as subjugated as the Japanese, you will have to nuke them too. It's fear that subjugated Japan, not the Japanese's desire for freedom.
The Iraq war sparked the largest civil protest in the history of Britain.
The Democratically elected government of Great Britain voted not to go.
The domestic population are arguably majoritavly against the invasion of Iraq. But it's too late to worry about that now. We're in it. We're in it to win it.
The laws OF the soldiers apply for them. Just like the laws where I LIVE apply for me. Just like ME the soldiers have to follow LAWS. I'm not saying that they have to follow the same laws! They have to keep themself to their OWN laws. Just like I have to keep myself to MY laws. You get me now? Or do I have to posts another 3 posts to try to explain it.
It's allowed to hope for a better world. And it's allowed to work for a better world. I trying to do both. And I believe that you can't do it with fear. Fear doesn't lead to anything good. If you believe there can't be world peace, then do so. But I believe that there can be, and it can be without fear and violence. It just depends on the attitude we start working on it with. If everyone thinks like you there won't be world peace, but I don't think all do.
"And wouldn't it be normal with some kind of radio contact between the "ground" troops and the guy recording if he was picking out ring leaders?
Maybe he is."
No he isn't. He isn't using any radio contact in the movie. You clearly hear that he isn't.
"Would they do that (Bring it home and show it) if it was meant to identifie ring leaders? And how the guy who records speaks doesn't actually suggest that he is doing a "job" by recording it.
Why would he? "
Would you speak like a maniac on a tape for work. Would you speak like that on a tape that most likely supervisors will look at (If it's a tactics used, I don't think it is)?
The movie neither has time/date or anything that would suggest this is something "official".
"Arresting someone does not make them guilty in the eyes of the law. It's not for the police (or you) to decide. All legal judgements will be made in court. Perhaps you have heard of the term, "innocent until proven guilty"?"
Yes I have heard of that term, we all have. But why is the movie investigated and arrestments made? Because the MP likes to have some fun in their spare time?
There's always a 'bad' element to every army in the world. Lets face it, if you train thousands of people to be cold blooded killers you're always going to end up with a few nutters. I live in a garrison town and there's often trouble with drunken soldiers, everyone knows they tend to get violent from time to time........
Most of you have it all wrong about "finishing the job" in iraq. Sure Saddam killed many of his own people and yes he has to be stoped but what are most of the soliders doing to the civiliens of iraq?!
I seen video's of U.S. soilders actually tormenting, laughing and taking pictures of the prisoners of war and also maulsting(excuse my spelling) them and making video's of these. Just because there the enemy doesnt me we need to give them all hell.
George W. Bush is nothing but a wimp. He sends our troops to bring peace to iraq? I mean he brought them their and the troops have NO idea what there doing over there. You think bush cares about the rest of America not North Amercia but the rest of Amercia? You got it all wrong.
Anyway I can see most people dont understand the situation here so I wont really get invovled with this. Our goverment is really just telling you lie's especaily our scared wimpy president who does nothing for us.
Most people tell me this war is acting like the Vietnam war and I disagree and agree about that.
If there is a complaint it will be investigated.
The images are bad propaganda and must be addressed.
British forces are signed up to the International Criminal Courts anyone in the world can make a complaint. And they will investigate.
Without an effective complaints process, instead of incidents like this, you get incidents like Abu Gharaib and massacres like in Kosovo.
The images are bad propaganda and must be addressed.To the poster of that topic:
Keep on playing MMO's at home, your ignorance towards the outside world makes you sound unsuited(and a facist as well.)
In other words your an Idiotic Facist.
*Locked*
Since people only read parts of the post here anyways.
In America I have bad teeth. If I lived in England my teeth would be perfect.