There are so many straw men and analogies in this thread it makes ones head spin.
The problem is, when you resort to using straw men and analogies you are trying to use Psychology to bolster a weak argument. You are essentially changing the subject, to a subject that more closely aligns with your side of the debate in an attempt to garner further support. It is good psychology, but bad form in a debate.
So please talk about the subject matter and leave the rubber ducks and McDonalds out of the equation. It only opens you to a counter analogy and weakens your initial position.
Evidently they didn't teach this at some of your colleges. At mine, presenting a paper full of analogies would result in an automatic fail with most professors.
Hmm, with all the sources I have collected information on types of logical tools / tactics, I have actually never heard this and it makes perfect sense. Any chance this specifically comes from a complete subject? Psychology? Logic? Some other term?
I'll admit I don't remember the exact subject of the lecture, but I have remembered the lesson for decades now.
I actually want to say it was a philosophy lecture, as the logic course I took dealt more with mathematics than language. Could have been basic psychology.
It is called argument by analogy.
"Many, perhaps most, speakers and writers use analogies merely as a communication tool. An analogy allows a speaker to clarify a new idea by invoking some similarity it has to some idea with which we are already familiar. Sometimes, however, people offer analogies in attempts to change minds. In such a case, the analogy is offered not just to explain, but also to persuade. It is thus then an argument by analogy. " - Quoted from http://www.madwizard.com/lct_analogy.htm
Obviously my Professor was better able to explain than I am.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
There are so many straw men and analogies in this thread it makes ones head spin.
The problem is, when you resort to using straw men and analogies you are trying to use Psychology to bolster a weak argument. You are essentially changing the subject, to a subject that more closely aligns with your side of the debate in an attempt to garner further support. It is good psychology, but bad form in a debate.
So please talk about the subject matter and leave the rubber ducks and McDonalds out of the equation. It only opens you to a counter analogy and weakens your initial position.
Evidently they didn't teach this at some of your colleges. At mine, presenting a paper full of analogies would result in an automatic fail with most professors.
Hmm, with all the sources I have collected information on types of logical tools / tactics, I have actually never heard this and it makes perfect sense. Any chance this specifically comes from a complete subject? Psychology? Logic? Some other term?
I'll admit I don't remember the exact subject of the lecture, but I have remembered the lesson for decades now.
I actually want to say it was a philosophy lecture, as the logic course I took dealt more with mathematics than language. Could have been basic psychology.
It is called argument by analogy.
"Many, perhaps most, speakers and writers use analogies merely as a communication tool. An analogy allows a speaker to clarify a new idea by invoking some similarity it has to some idea with which we are already familiar. Sometimes, however, people offer analogies in attempts to change minds. In such a case, the analogy is offered not just to explain, but also to persuade. It is thus then an argument by analogy. " - Quoted from http://www.madwizard.com/lct_analogy.htm
Obviously my Professor was better able to explain than I am.
Ah, very much appreciated <~ ... and still loyal to your Professor, eh? (both your use of a capital letter in Professor and giving them the honor of stating they are better able to explain the subject tells me so)... Must have been one of the few good ones then.
Well, I can remember his face plain as day. The courses and lectures are all jumbled together now though. He was a good one and a good guy.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
I will be spending the weekend at the coast. Got a great partner, good job, my health, lots of free time and money to enjoy life. Yeah and tons of games to play including MMOs. Life is good for me right now and I am definitely going to savor every minute as long as I can.
If you think this is the worst time in MMO gaming then you aren't old enough. Compared to now I would rather deal with too many mediocre titles then when this was the shit ...
I still find these games very addictive. Being text only a lot is left to the imagination which can be a good thing. It's like reading a good book vs watching a good movie, if it's well done.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Why did I post this? I think people unhappy with video games give them WAY to much importance in their life, for whatever reason. It's an excellent period to be a MMO gamer with a life. It's not that good of a period to be a MMO gamer playing those games like a job. And I think that's for the best.
Holy crap! You've played WoW for 228 days???
That's the equivalent of 684 friggin' 8 hour workdays!
The worst time to be an MMO gamer is now. Because there are less gamers then there are whiners. The whiners are overcrowding all of our forums and outlets. We gamers have nowhere to go because the whiners are just taking over. I hope they go away soon.
Originally posted by Darksworm EQ1 had 500k players in a MUCH smaller market in 2004 and most MMOs these days can't even hold near that many 3-4 months after launch, nevermind 3-4 years after launch.
EQ1 got 450k out of a market that was barely worth 1 million max, and that was in 2003, when choices where limited to half a dozen quality games
And that's where your last shred of credibility vanishes.
In 2003 we have
EQ- 500k
DAoC - 250k
UO - 300k
SWG - 350-400k
FF11 - 550k
CoH - 180k
Eve - 200k
Second life -200k
And that's not even getting into eastern games like Lineage 1 or 2, or more niche titles like Matrix, Sims, Earn and Beyond, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, etc.
There were many quality games, and most of them had about the same, if not MORE subscribers in 2003, than most modern AAA MMOs have, except they cost a LOT LESS to make and there were FAR FEWER people playing MMOs overall. What does that tell you about the current market?
Whether or not WoW is currently doing well is not an indication to anything about the genre as a whole. WoW always has, and always will be, a complete outlier.
Yes, because you pulling all those numbers out of your ass is soooo meaningful.
That numerical data is easy to find, don't embarrass yourself.
I'd give the link, but for some reason I can't even past a link into the editor for posts on this forum.
In 2003 there were over 4M total subscriptions in this genre and multiple games over 300k Subs. The fact that so many AAA titles can't even sustain similar numbers in a market that is 5x the size is kind of embarrassing, and back then practically everything required a subscription.
Also, the MMORPG market has been shrinking (sub numbers-wise) pretty consistently since 2011.
No official data exists
Actually, most of those games have given out official numbers over the years. Especially older games, the old designers or CEOs have come forward saying what they've peaked at.
Raph gives out UO and SWG numbers in many interviews and conference videos, which I suggest you listen to if you want to try to debate things. DAoC numbers were always public. SOE has given out EQ numbers numerous times.
You guys keep trying, but the tactic you're down to at this point is derailing. [mod edit]
Originally posted by madazz The worst time to be an MMO gamer is now. Because there are less gamers then there are whiners. The whiners are overcrowding all of our forums and outlets. We gamers have nowhere to go because the whiners are just taking over. I hope they go away soon.
They are just as hardore at whining as in playing.
Remember, something has to fill 12-16 hours a day void
Originally posted by Malabooga Originally posted by madazzThe worst time to be an MMO gamer is now. Because there are less gamers then there are whiners. The whiners are overcrowding all of our forums and outlets. We gamers have nowhere to go because the whiners are just taking over. I hope they go away soon.
They are just as hardore at whining as in playing.
Remember, something has to fill 12-16 hours a day void
Skinner box withdrawals are intense. EQ really effed people up.
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard But the amount of time required for EQ was exponentially higher.
No shit. You cannot say those were required hours though. Just hours spent. I honestly dumped close to 9 hours mean, ~12 hours median, a day -- for nearly 3 years on EQ. I don't know how anyone with a steady job could even do that. A normal 40 h/wk with a short commute is still not conducive of that unless you have chronic insomnia.
That's the equivalent of 684 friggin' 8 hour workdays!
I did intentionally choose that screenshot
Make out of it what you want.
Note that I love how you removed the first picture to only focus on the second. Thanks for springing the trap.
I wasn't intending to spring a trap... if you read my posts on this topic, you'll probably find my opinions to be mostly in line with yours.
I only included the last picture because it was the only thing relevant to what I was saying.
And it wasn't meant to be a personal attack; odds are if you counted every game I've ever played since 2003, my time wouldn't be far from that. I'm just surprised that that's just in WoW time.
Well, let's have it. -- Do you think this is the least prolific period in the MMO/RPG - Markets? I know it's always a sitaution where we the gamers feel like we are ALWAYS waiting for the next title to deliver.
- However, have we come full circle to both the realization there simply is no title worth waiting for, and we will always be left without what we desire. More over- What about what is currently out. I look over my rather impressive collections of MMOs, and only 1-2 even seem like something i would want to play right now (GW2, FF14) - And neither are games i really -want- to play, but rather in the void of having nothing else to play, they are sufficent time-wasters, i don't really care to play them or not. -- So what happened, do you feel like this is a down-trodden period in the MMO industry, do you think it will recover? -- I'm personally tired of the waiting on "xy" title, and becoming instantly disgusted with the poor tactics employed in the deployment of the game that ends up leaving me right back to waiting on the next title. Can we stick a fork in it, and call it done?
Same feelings here bro, I just can't bloody find a good mmo, dfuw could have been good but such waste pvp.
There are just WAY too many and they all seem to be Early Access rough alphas with cash money shops and nothing to do after you've learned how to kill and craft. MMOs were *much* more fun when they were novel and exciting by virtue of their novelty.
Agreed as soon as they went mainstream it was all over. I don't blame Wow for this. I blame the companies trying to copy it. It was best when the Devs had more control and not the suits.
Well isn't that interesting. Those who think there are great games out use their time responding to this thread instead of playing said "great" games. How very... very.
Actions speak louder than words. If you are so content, you wouldn't be here - not to look for new games because you are satisfied - and you wouldn't be here trying to throw smart alleck comments at people who don't have their ideal game to play.
Yes ma'am, actions speak louder than words. I admit why I'm here - I'm unsatisfied. Too bad others can't do the same because it would be some sort of abomination to not like the current offerings. I'm not squeezing my square peg in the round hole and don't feel the need to pretend it's so.
Yes pretty much it's all about. Stupid blizzard didn't make the next gen mmo and we left without a game.
I hope fucking Nc soft and Blizzard reading this 40 page drama because I do but they should read it instead.
Originally posted by Darksworm EQ1 had 500k players in a MUCH smaller market in 2004 and most MMOs these days can't even hold near that many 3-4 months after launch, nevermind 3-4 years after launch.
EQ1 got 450k out of a market that was barely worth 1 million max, and that was in 2003, when choices where limited to half a dozen quality games
And that's where your last shred of credibility vanishes.
In 2003 we have
EQ- 500k
DAoC - 250k
UO - 300k
SWG - 350-400k
FF11 - 550k
CoH - 180k
Eve - 200k
Second life -200k
And that's not even getting into eastern games like Lineage 1 or 2, or more niche titles like Matrix, Sims, Earn and Beyond, Shadowbane, Anarchy Online, etc.
There were many quality games, and most of them had about the same, if not MORE subscribers in 2003, than most modern AAA MMOs have, except they cost a LOT LESS to make and there were FAR FEWER people playing MMOs overall. What does that tell you about the current market?
Whether or not WoW is currently doing well is not an indication to anything about the genre as a whole. WoW always has, and always will be, a complete outlier.
Yes, because you pulling all those numbers out of your ass is soooo meaningful.
That numerical data is easy to find, don't embarrass yourself.
...
Insulting people won't make it not exist, and be trivially accessible to you ;-)
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Comments
I'll admit I don't remember the exact subject of the lecture, but I have remembered the lesson for decades now.
I actually want to say it was a philosophy lecture, as the logic course I took dealt more with mathematics than language. Could have been basic psychology.
It is called argument by analogy.
"Many, perhaps most, speakers and writers use analogies merely as a communication tool. An analogy allows a speaker to clarify a new idea by invoking some similarity it has to some idea with which we are already familiar. Sometimes, however, people offer analogies in attempts to change minds. In such a case, the analogy is offered not just to explain, but also to persuade. It is thus then an argument by analogy. " - Quoted from http://www.madwizard.com/lct_analogy.htm
Obviously my Professor was better able to explain than I am.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
Well, I can remember his face plain as day. The courses and lectures are all jumbled together now though. He was a good one and a good guy.
( Note to self-Don't say anything bad about Drizzt.)
An acerbic sense of humor is NOT allowed here.
Yes.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
Nice car! @jeanluc
I will be spending the weekend at the coast. Got a great partner, good job, my health, lots of free time and money to enjoy life. Yeah and tons of games to play including MMOs. Life is good for me right now and I am definitely going to savor every minute as long as I can.
I still find these games very addictive. Being text only a lot is left to the imagination which can be a good thing. It's like reading a good book vs watching a good movie, if it's well done.
Last one I played some time ago. http://www.hogwartslive.com/home.php
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Holy crap! You've played WoW for 228 days???
That's the equivalent of 684 friggin' 8 hour workdays!
Actually, most of those games have given out official numbers over the years. Especially older games, the old designers or CEOs have come forward saying what they've peaked at.
Raph gives out UO and SWG numbers in many interviews and conference videos, which I suggest you listen to if you want to try to debate things. DAoC numbers were always public. SOE has given out EQ numbers numerous times.
You guys keep trying, but the tactic you're down to at this point is derailing. [mod edit]
They are just as hardore at whining as in playing.
Remember, something has to fill 12-16 hours a day void
Remember, something has to fill 12-16 hours a day void
Skinner box withdrawals are intense. EQ really effed people up.
No shit. You cannot say those were required hours though. Just hours spent. I honestly dumped close to 9 hours mean, ~12 hours median, a day -- for nearly 3 years on EQ. I don't know how anyone with a steady job could even do that. A normal 40 h/wk with a short commute is still not conducive of that unless you have chronic insomnia.
I wasn't intending to spring a trap... if you read my posts on this topic, you'll probably find my opinions to be mostly in line with yours.
I only included the last picture because it was the only thing relevant to what I was saying.
And it wasn't meant to be a personal attack; odds are if you counted every game I've ever played since 2003, my time wouldn't be far from that. I'm just surprised that that's just in WoW time.
Same feelings here bro, I just can't bloody find a good mmo, dfuw could have been good but such waste pvp.
Maybe black desert? +I do+n;t +kn+ow
Agreed as soon as they went mainstream it was all over. I don't blame Wow for this. I blame the companies trying to copy it. It was best when the Devs had more control and not the suits.
Yes pretty much it's all about. Stupid blizzard didn't make the next gen mmo and we left without a game.
I hope fucking Nc soft and Blizzard reading this 40 page drama because I do but they should read it instead.
Glass houses and all.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Ouch.
Game, set, match. Loktofeit wins.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky