Originally posted by Faemus I think whether or not Vanguard has a chance to top WoW can be more easily answered once we have a better idea of how "casual friendly" Vanguard will be. I've done a bit of research on the game myself, but probably not nearly as much as many of you. From what you've seen so far, do you think Vanguard will cater to the growing Casual Market very well?
I think Brad has said something along the lines of 25% casual content, but my thought that the game will top WoW isn't based on that alone. I feel that there are a lot more players that will put the time into a more group oriented game if there is a sufficient challenge level. Not just grinding instances for months in a row, but actual technical gameplay challenges that keep people playing not just for time sinks but for the love of it.
Originally posted by anarchyart I think Brad has said something along the lines of 25% casual content, but my thought that the game will top WoW isn't based on that alone. I feel that there are a lot more players that will put the time into a more group oriented game if there is a sufficient challenge level. Not just grinding instances for months in a row, but actual technical gameplay challenges that keep people playing not just for time sinks but for the love of it.
Interesting, do you recall if he bothered to give his definition of "casual content" . It's a term that seams to be debated a lot these days.
It reveals that even though a lot of gamers prefer the MMO environment, many times it isn't for obviouus reasons such as questing or direct social interaction. I think this "observers" role could be closely tied to an accurate definition of "casual gamers". With that said, I'm curious to see how Vanguard will handle the large number of players who don't really feel compelled to group and interact directly with other gamers (at least not very often).
Originally posted by anarchyart And just remember, if I had told you WoW would have 4 million subscribers worldwide before it launched you would have called me crazy too!
very true, i remember alot of people saying that blizzard didn't know how to make a mmo and would fail because of it. but i feel that there are far more casual players than any other type that play video games as a whole.
that is why a game like wow can generate so many players, because they accommodate the casual player, alot more than vanguard will.
but who knows, i could be wrong.....but ask yourself this question...... do you really want vanguard to be that successful? do you really want all those wow a$$bags to migrate over and ruin vanguards community? i sure as hell don't.
not trying to generalize wow players but its just my honest opinion.
My experience with MMORPG titles is somewhat limited. (SWG and WoW) But i played the hell outa both of them. And I'll be the first to admit that WoW has its share of idiots.
My question is whether that seamingly large number of idiots is somehow a bigger problem in WoW, or whether all MMOs have the same problem and its just easier to hold WoW's feet to the fire since they have so many subscribers and therefore a larger number of "idiot experiences" coming out of the game.
Originally posted by n2sooners I just wonder how often you will need a group to become a high level diplomat (or thug).
I believe that the devs have said that the diplomat sphere as well as crafting sphere are for soloists.
Originally posted by Faemus My experience with MMORPG titles is somewhat limited. (SWG and WoW) But i played the hell outa both of them. And I'll be the first to admit that WoW has its share of idiots. My question is whether that seamingly large number of idiots is somehow a bigger problem in WoW, or whether all MMOs have the same problem and its just easier to hold WoW's feet to the fire since they have so many subscribers and therefore a larger number of "idiot experiences" coming out of the game.
It has seemed to me that every new game the community has gotten worse. So I think WoW's poor community has something to do with the growing treand. But also to blame should be WoW's gameplay where grouping is not encouraged or needed. Reputation does not matter and there are few if any consequences for poor gameplay, poor reputation or rude behavior.
Vanguard promises to bring back community by going back using game mechanics to encourage a strong community. By grouping, more skill required for combat, and more dependency on other players they hope to make reputation matter again. brad has made a number of posts where he has detailed game mechanics he will hope will encourage the building of strong communities. Can this fighht the trend of recent MMO's. Who knows. But the official Vanguard boards has the best community I have ever seen. You don't see the flames, personal attacks and poorly written posts you see on other game boards.
I don't know if Vangurd can succeed in making communities better but I am very glad that its one of the things they are focusing on building through game mechanics. It certainly has to be better than WoW's or at least I hope.
By the way Vanguard is described it looks like it'll easily surpass all these games out here. It won't take all that much to pass a game like WoW and much less others like the watered downed SWG. Or the quick to bore you-CoH-V. EQ2 is another which won't give this game any problems as well as PLanetside which is only about kill or be kill over and over with not much to do.
If in fact this game has no problems and runs smoothly with all the features its presenting, it'll shoot straight to the top in no time.
Originally posted by Zippy Originally posted by n2sooners I just wonder how often you will need a group to become a high level diplomat (or thug). I believe that the devs have said that the diplomat sphere as well as crafting sphere are for soloists. Originally posted by Faemus My experience with MMORPG titles is somewhat limited. (SWG and WoW) But i played the hell outa both of them. And I'll be the first to admit that WoW has its share of idiots. My question is whether that seamingly large number of idiots is somehow a bigger problem in WoW, or whether all MMOs have the same problem and its just easier to hold WoW's feet to the fire since they have so many subscribers and therefore a larger number of "idiot experiences" coming out of the game. It has seemed to me that every new game the community has gotten worse. So I think WoW's poor community has something to do with the growing treand. But also to blame should be WoW's gameplay where grouping is not encouraged or needed. Reputation does not matter and there are few if any consequences for poor gameplay, poor reputation or rude behavior. Vanguard promises to bring back community by going back using game mechanics to encourage a strong community. By grouping, more skill required for combat, and more dependency on other players they hope to make reputation matter again. brad has made a number of posts where he has detailed game mechanics he will hope will encourage the building of strong communities. Can this fighht the trend of recent MMO's. Who knows. But the official Vanguard boards has the best community I have ever seen. You don't see the flames, personal attacks and poorly written posts you see on other game boards. I don't know if Vangurd can succeed in making communities better but I am very glad that its one of the things they are focusing on building through game mechanics. It certainly has to be better than WoW's or at least I hope.
while i agree totally with everything you wrote zip, i would just like to add that alot of wow's community has to do with just being a blizzard/bnet game. their games have always attracted players that deserve the label "bnet kiddie", just a personal observation over years of experience playing blizzard games on bnet.
Vanguard is gonna have alot new stuff that wow doesn't. I believe that alot of casual gamers wil enjoy it. The problem is that vg is becoming known as a 'Hardcore game'. What's hardcore about it? Have you even tried it?
There will be player built housing, mounts at low lvl, pvp, special ruleset servers, player owned boats, a huge world to explore, new combat system that needs alil bit of skill. Vg is created for ppl that want to enjoy playing in a virtal world. Its not for ppl that want it to be easy/hard. It's not for the ppl that want to rush to max lvl. There won't be much downtime. You won't have to spend forever waiting for groups.
ATLEAST TRY THE GAME INSTEAD OF TRUSTING PPL THAT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE GAME. You might like it (I'm not shouting, i just want ppl to notice that part of the post)
Vanguard will be a great game and it won't be like wow where all you can do is raid at max lvl.
It will never happen, WoW was made to be geared toward the masses. Vanguard will be bringing back concepts like corpse runs, that a lot of people dislike. I think that alone is enough to stop it from topping WoW.
Fact is, NO this game will not top out WoW at least i dont ever seeing it doing that, I'm not sure i would play it if it had WoWs personality, cause like gaming is fun to do with alot of people, but when you have your college professors playing it along with your girlfriend other online gaming buddies, and even your parents, like me. Them being 47 now, That SAYS ALOT in the diversity in the population. I don't like to play a game that Everyone and their mom is playing. Its just not my thing to turn with the current trend.
This game is based for the hard core gamer, not the carebears.
Getting away from Vanguard for a moment. Someone wrote, In WoW grouping is neither encouraged nor is it necessary.
Say what? After running out of missions in WoW near the top levels the only thing left is dungeons, dungeons and more dungeons. Which we all know is not for solo players nor for a few players, only large groups. WoW is one of the few games where you defitnitley need a group.
As far as encouragement, about the only thing encouraged by WoW's management is ganking. But I won't get into that atm.
Now, let me tell you a story i hear somewhere, vanguard is currently in beta 2, i´ve heard that it will go up to beta 4, now, in beta 2 theres has been say 3 patches, wich i have heard have improved the game greatly.
At the momment, the game is very much playable, and i hear again that its evolving to be a great product once its finished. Yall can stand assured that Vanaguard will provide a very viable alternative to EQ and EQ2, because thats their target market, having played WoW myself, its a completly diferent beast from Vanguard on how it plays, i dont think it will ever apeal to most WoW players.
But dont mistake one thing, from all that i have "heard" this will be a niche game at most, dont expect great numbers coming out of here, but the current EQ2 or EQ1 subscriber base wont be far off, maybe up to 500k, but i dont realy see it going higher than that.
Now, i wouldnt be wanting to brake any NDA´s, not that i am under any
Originally posted by Blue3000 Getting away from Vanguard for a moment. Someone wrote, In WoW grouping is neither encouraged nor is it necessary. Say what? After running out of missions in WoW near the top levels the only thing left is dungeons, dungeons and more dungeons. Which we all know is not for solo players nor for a few players, only large groups. WoW is one of the few games where you defitnitley need a group. As far as encouragement, about the only thing encouraged by WoW's management is ganking. But I won't get into that atm.
I would disagree with you here. I have 4 lvl 60's in WoW. There are plenty of quests in the game if you do them all to reach lvl 60 without ever going in a dungeon, grinding or grouping. My last 2 lvl 60's never grinded mobs or grouped except to help someone in need and my 2nd lvl 60 did not join a group until lvl 57 or 58. Soloing and exclusively questing seems to me much faster than grouping as my last 2 chars reached lvl 60 in 11 and 10 days played. I have heard of people reaching lvl 60 in 6-7 days played. I am sure these people are much more skilled and better players than I but I would guess they did it in grinding groups. Besides my first WoW character I have almost never grouped to level so I can't say how these people hit max so fast. My first WoW character did run out of quests at lvl 59 (about 15 or 18 bubbles form 60) but that has been my only character that was even close to running out of quests.
The key in my expereince to leveling in WoW is do every quest in every zone. Then quests are always green or light yellow. You never run out or have to slow down or seek help. Falling behind the quest curve where quests become harder imo is where the difficulty arises. You should be able to hit lvl 60 with all questing, no dungeons and a full journal of unfinished quests.
Vanguard Will surely be the best and I'm currently searching for some lost hope to get into the Beta. On the vs Wow topic i'm sure it will eventually wear the player base down. I just hope they bring back some of the tactics I miss from the originall EQ. WoW was a very nice break from the normal group heavy MMORPG's but I find it getting old very quickly. Either way Vanguard Will definately have me as a member.
A major problem I can see happening to Vanguard is that it will get borring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it soely PvE based? Once you have a few characters maxed won't you just simply run out of things to do? I find that PvP is a must in a long lasting MMORPG.
Originally posted by Squitty A major problem I can see happening to Vanguard is that it will get borring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it soely PvE based? Once you have a few characters maxed won't you just simply run out of things to do? I find that PvP is a must in a long lasting MMORPG.
ex WOW player i assume? not that thats a bad thing....welcome
In Vanguard to reach max level it will take a LONG time. unlike in WOW, expect at LEAST about 3+ months to reach max lev but usually a lot more. 3 months in Vanguard=the 1 week in WOW to lev to max. So for the average player more like half a year.
And on the other hand there will be PvP servers.
They also have three different, equal, spheres that you can advance that will be completely different from each other, so no it will not get boring. Additionally each adventure class will play very different from each other.
Indeed, but as i said in my post, its not even remotly similar to WoW. Combat for one is very diferent, tho it will receive a major overall in the near future, the quests work very diferently, tho they have very few implemented yet, so we cant get a good idea about that. The tradeskilling is also receiving a major reworking, so cant comment on that yet. Now the diplomacy, its still very basic and subject to alot of changes, but the overall idea of the system is great, you can enter into a sort of duel of wits with an npc, and if you manage to convince the npc, he can give you new quests, new lore, new locations where there might be treasure and such.
I think the major hurdle vanguard will have to go trough are the system specs you need to run it smoothly and with decent gfx, the game is a much greater system hog than EQ2, at least at the momment. I hope they optimize the engine further, because if they dont, most of us will be left playing it with minimum details
Another post showing the total lack of brains and over-weaning ego of the Vanguard dweebs. WoW hit 6 million players, Vanguard will be damn lucky to have 200k!!!!
Originally posted by krenalor Another post showing the total lack of brains and over-weaning ego of the Vanguard dweebs. WoW hit 6 million players, Vanguard will be damn lucky to have 200k!!!!
and another post by krenalor the troll, all you ever talk about is how many wow player's there are and how much vanguard will suck, but you refuse to actually have a discussion about it when countless people call you out.
all you do is insult people and try to get them mad so when they respond back and insult you back, you report them. you are nothing but a freaking troll and deserve to be banned from these forums....lucky for you it is not up to me.
p.s read my Sig and tell me it is a raid-centric game, and you say we have "total lack of brains" why don't you try actually finding out facts before you flame a certain game eh? but again you don't care, you are just a troll trying to get a rise out of people...
Originally posted by Squitty A major problem I can see happening to Vanguard is that it will get borring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it soely PvE based? Once you have a few characters maxed won't you just simply run out of things to do? I find that PvP is a must in a long lasting MMORPG.
true vanguard will not be for everybody, if you need a game with heavy pvp content you might not like vanguard as well. sigil is focusing on making a long lasting mmorpg, there are many ways to build your character other than just reaching the maximum lvl and getting item upgrades.
there are three different spheres to advance, and alot of content to explore (hopefully). and while there isn't going to be battlegrounds to grind honor for countless hours, there will be pvp to make it intresting... if that is your cup of tea.
but if you think this is going to be like wow, where in 2-3 months you have done everything there is to do and reach maximum lvl you better think again.
it was said somewhere that it took a beta tester over 4 months to reach maximum lvl in just one sphere, playing the game 12 hours a day 7 days a week....that is pretty extreme, but that gives you a idea to how long it could take someone to run out of things to do. as long as they implement lots of content i think this will work out great.
but again it is not for everyone, I'm sure alot of people wont like this game because of its lack of pvp content(or some wont like it simply because they wont have 5 million players ) oh well, i played eq on a pvp server and loved it, vanguard will have a similar pvp system so I'm hoping i will love it to!
While I understand the intent of OP's question, WoW compared to VSoH is apples to oranges.
WoW appeals to a HUGE demographic of players - its has the blizzard game fans with NO prior MMO experience (which is huge), it has the part time gaming for the sake of 'playing' players, it has the 'babysitter' factor from parents buying it for their young teens who have GOT to have it due to its 'popularity', AND it has filled a gap left by the EQ1 exodus, which they failed to recapture with EQ2- MMO'rs who really have not had much else to do of modern quality.
VSoH will not target the spectrum of players that WoW does. That is a WONDERFUL thing. They will never have the numbers of WoW..that too is a wonderful thing. Saying which game is better - well, that is 100% subjective.
I have been playing MMOs for 7 years. many others have been playing for far longer than I. People who crave the dynamics, worlds, and gameplay of a true MMO will shift to games like VSoH. It doesn't mean VSoH is a better game - it just means it is better For Us.
Me, I am not a WoW fan, I have nothing good to say about it. But everything about it that annoys me-are the same things that others LOVE about it. Just how it works I guess.
Comments
It wont... but afaik there are a few people that are waiting for Vanguard to come out that are playing WoW atm.
I think Brad has said something along the lines of 25% casual content, but my thought that the game will top WoW isn't based on that alone. I feel that there are a lot more players that will put the time into a more group oriented game if there is a sufficient challenge level. Not just grinding instances for months in a row, but actual technical gameplay challenges that keep people playing not just for time sinks but for the love of it.
Interesting, do you recall if he bothered to give his definition of "casual content" . It's a term that seams to be debated a lot these days.
Also, many of you have most likely seen this "Alone Together" article by now.
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2006/02/alone_together_.html#more
It reveals that even though a lot of gamers prefer the MMO environment, many times it isn't for obviouus reasons such as questing or direct social interaction. I think this "observers" role could be closely tied to an accurate definition of "casual gamers". With that said, I'm curious to see how Vanguard will handle the large number of players who don't really feel compelled to group and interact directly with other gamers (at least not very often).
-- I need a nerf --
I just wonder how often you will need a group to become a high level diplomat (or thug).
very true, i remember alot of people saying that blizzard didn't know how to make a mmo and would fail because of it. but i feel that there are far more casual players than any other type that play video games as a whole.
that is why a game like wow can generate so many players, because they accommodate the casual player, alot more than vanguard will.
but who knows, i could be wrong.....but ask yourself this question...... do you really want vanguard to be that successful? do you really want all those wow a$$bags to migrate over and ruin vanguards community? i sure as hell don't.
not trying to generalize wow players but its just my honest opinion.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
My experience with MMORPG titles is somewhat limited. (SWG and WoW) But i played the hell outa both of them. And I'll be the first to admit that WoW has its share of idiots.
My question is whether that seamingly large number of idiots is somehow a bigger problem in WoW, or whether all MMOs have the same problem and its just easier to hold WoW's feet to the fire since they have so many subscribers and therefore a larger number of "idiot experiences" coming out of the game.
-- I need a nerf --
I believe that the devs have said that the diplomat sphere as well as crafting sphere are for soloists.
It has seemed to me that every new game the community has gotten worse. So I think WoW's poor community has something to do with the growing treand. But also to blame should be WoW's gameplay where grouping is not encouraged or needed. Reputation does not matter and there are few if any consequences for poor gameplay, poor reputation or rude behavior.
Vanguard promises to bring back community by going back using game mechanics to encourage a strong community. By grouping, more skill required for combat, and more dependency on other players they hope to make reputation matter again. brad has made a number of posts where he has detailed game mechanics he will hope will encourage the building of strong communities. Can this fighht the trend of recent MMO's. Who knows. But the official Vanguard boards has the best community I have ever seen. You don't see the flames, personal attacks and poorly written posts you see on other game boards.
I don't know if Vangurd can succeed in making communities better but I am very glad that its one of the things they are focusing on building through game mechanics. It certainly has to be better than WoW's or at least I hope.
By the way Vanguard is described it looks like it'll easily surpass all these games out here. It won't take all that much to pass a game like WoW and much less others like the watered downed SWG. Or the quick to bore you-CoH-V. EQ2 is another which won't give this game any problems as well as PLanetside which is only about kill or be kill over and over with not much to do.
If in fact this game has no problems and runs smoothly with all the features its presenting, it'll shoot straight to the top in no time.
while i agree totally with everything you wrote zip, i would just like to add that alot of wow's community has to do with just being a blizzard/bnet game. their games have always attracted players that deserve the label "bnet kiddie", just a personal observation over years of experience playing blizzard games on bnet.
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
If it doesn't surpass EQ2 I'll be amazed...
Vanguard is gonna have alot new stuff that wow doesn't. I believe that alot of casual gamers wil enjoy it. The problem is that vg is becoming known as a 'Hardcore game'. What's hardcore about it? Have you even tried it?
There will be player built housing, mounts at low lvl, pvp, special ruleset servers, player owned boats, a huge world to explore, new combat system that needs alil bit of skill. Vg is created for ppl that want to enjoy playing in a virtal world. Its not for ppl that want it to be easy/hard. It's not for the ppl that want to rush to max lvl. There won't be much downtime. You won't have to spend forever waiting for groups.
ATLEAST TRY THE GAME INSTEAD OF TRUSTING PPL THAT KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE GAME. You might like it (I'm not shouting, i just want ppl to notice that part of the post)
Vanguard will be a great game and it won't be like wow where all you can do is raid at max lvl.
It will never happen, WoW was made to be geared toward the masses. Vanguard will be bringing back concepts like corpse runs, that a lot of people dislike. I think that alone is enough to stop it from topping WoW.
Fact is, NO this game will not top out WoW at least i dont ever seeing it doing that, I'm not sure i would play it if it had WoWs personality, cause like gaming is fun to do with alot of people, but when you have your college professors playing it along with your girlfriend other online gaming buddies, and even your parents, like me. Them being 47 now, That SAYS ALOT in the diversity in the population. I don't like to play a game that Everyone and their mom is playing. Its just not my thing to turn with the current trend.
This game is based for the hard core gamer, not the carebears.
For the love of god, Vanguard isn't designed for hardcore gamers. Stop saying that it is.
Getting away from Vanguard for a moment. Someone wrote, In WoW grouping is neither encouraged nor is it necessary.
Say what? After running out of missions in WoW near the top levels the only thing left is dungeons, dungeons and more dungeons. Which we all know is not for solo players nor for a few players, only large groups. WoW is one of the few games where you defitnitley need a group.
As far as encouragement, about the only thing encouraged by WoW's management is ganking. But I won't get into that atm.
Now, let me tell you a story i hear somewhere, vanguard is currently in beta 2, i´ve heard that it will go up to beta 4, now, in beta 2 theres has been say 3 patches, wich i have heard have improved the game greatly.
At the momment, the game is very much playable, and i hear again that its evolving to be a great product once its finished. Yall can stand assured that Vanaguard will provide a very viable alternative to EQ and EQ2, because thats their target market, having played WoW myself, its a completly diferent beast from Vanguard on how it plays, i dont think it will ever apeal to most WoW players.
But dont mistake one thing, from all that i have "heard" this will be a niche game at most, dont expect great numbers coming out of here, but the current EQ2 or EQ1 subscriber base wont be far off, maybe up to 500k, but i dont realy see it going higher than that.
Now, i wouldnt be wanting to brake any NDA´s, not that i am under any
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
I would disagree with you here. I have 4 lvl 60's in WoW. There are plenty of quests in the game if you do them all to reach lvl 60 without ever going in a dungeon, grinding or grouping. My last 2 lvl 60's never grinded mobs or grouped except to help someone in need and my 2nd lvl 60 did not join a group until lvl 57 or 58. Soloing and exclusively questing seems to me much faster than grouping as my last 2 chars reached lvl 60 in 11 and 10 days played. I have heard of people reaching lvl 60 in 6-7 days played. I am sure these people are much more skilled and better players than I but I would guess they did it in grinding groups. Besides my first WoW character I have almost never grouped to level so I can't say how these people hit max so fast. My first WoW character did run out of quests at lvl 59 (about 15 or 18 bubbles form 60) but that has been my only character that was even close to running out of quests.
The key in my expereince to leveling in WoW is do every quest in every zone. Then quests are always green or light yellow. You never run out or have to slow down or seek help. Falling behind the quest curve where quests become harder imo is where the difficulty arises. You should be able to hit lvl 60 with all questing, no dungeons and a full journal of unfinished quests.
It's only after lvl 60 where grouping is needed,
A major problem I can see happening to Vanguard is that it will get borring. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it soely PvE based? Once you have a few characters maxed won't you just simply run out of things to do? I find that PvP is a must in a long lasting MMORPG.
ex WOW player i assume? not that thats a bad thing....welcome
In Vanguard to reach max level it will take a LONG time. unlike in WOW, expect at LEAST about 3+ months to reach max lev but usually a lot more. 3 months in Vanguard=the 1 week in WOW to lev to max. So for the average player more like half a year.
And on the other hand there will be PvP servers.
They also have three different, equal, spheres that you can advance that will be completely different from each other, so no it will not get boring. Additionally each adventure class will play very different from each other.
~Dunadurium
"Silly rabbit, WoW's for kids"
************************
Indeed, but as i said in my post, its not even remotly similar to WoW. Combat for one is very diferent, tho it will receive a major overall in the near future, the quests work very diferently, tho they have very few implemented yet, so we cant get a good idea about that. The tradeskilling is also receiving a major reworking, so cant comment on that yet. Now the diplomacy, its still very basic and subject to alot of changes, but the overall idea of the system is great, you can enter into a sort of duel of wits with an npc, and if you manage to convince the npc, he can give you new quests, new lore, new locations where there might be treasure and such.
I think the major hurdle vanguard will have to go trough are the system specs you need to run it smoothly and with decent gfx, the game is a much greater system hog than EQ2, at least at the momment. I hope they optimize the engine further, because if they dont, most of us will be left playing it with minimum details
All ur Mountain Dew is belong to me.
and another post by krenalor the troll, all you ever talk about is how many wow player's there are and how much vanguard will suck, but you refuse to actually have a discussion about it when countless people call you out.
all you do is insult people and try to get them mad so when they respond back and insult you back, you report them. you are nothing but a freaking troll and deserve to be banned from these forums....lucky for you it is not up to me.
p.s read my Sig and tell me it is a raid-centric game, and you say we have "total lack of brains"
why don't you try actually finding out facts before you flame a certain game eh? but again you don't care, you are just a troll trying to get a rise out of people...
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
true vanguard will not be for everybody, if you need a game with heavy pvp content you might not like vanguard as well. sigil is focusing on making a long lasting mmorpg, there are many ways to build your character other than just reaching the maximum lvl and getting item upgrades.
there are three different spheres to advance, and alot of content to explore (hopefully). and while there isn't going to be battlegrounds to grind honor for countless hours, there will be pvp to make it intresting... if that is your cup of tea.
but if you think this is going to be like wow, where in 2-3 months you have done everything there is to do and reach maximum lvl you better think again.
it was said somewhere that it took a beta tester over 4 months to reach maximum lvl in just one sphere, playing the game 12 hours a day 7 days a week....that is pretty extreme, but that gives you a idea to how long it could take someone to run out of things to do. as long as they implement lots of content i think this will work out great.
but again it is not for everyone, I'm sure alot of people wont like this game because of its lack of pvp content(or some wont like it simply because they wont have 5 million players
) oh well, i played eq on a pvp server and loved it, vanguard will have a similar pvp system so I'm hoping i will love it to! 
read this http://www.vanguardsoh.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1044304#post1044304 then come back and talk to me about the vanguard/soe fiasco.....
While I understand the intent of OP's question, WoW compared to VSoH is apples to oranges.
WoW appeals to a HUGE demographic of players - its has the blizzard game fans with NO prior MMO experience (which is huge), it has the part time gaming for the sake of 'playing' players, it has the 'babysitter' factor from parents buying it for their young teens who have GOT to have it due to its 'popularity', AND it has filled a gap left by the EQ1 exodus, which they failed to recapture with EQ2- MMO'rs who really have not had much else to do of modern quality.
VSoH will not target the spectrum of players that WoW does. That is a WONDERFUL thing. They will never have the numbers of WoW..that too is a wonderful thing. Saying which game is better - well, that is 100% subjective.
I have been playing MMOs for 7 years. many others have been playing for far longer than I. People who crave the dynamics, worlds, and gameplay of a true MMO will shift to games like VSoH. It doesn't mean VSoH is a better game - it just means it is better For Us.
Me, I am not a WoW fan, I have nothing good to say about it. But everything about it that annoys me-are the same things that others LOVE about it. Just how it works I guess.
See you in Vanguard