Clearly with all of his experience in the MMOSphere, he knows better than us.
Smed knows nothing. He only thinks this cause everyone continues to leave the game EQ2 that he poorly managed. The problem isn't the genre it is the way the companies are treating it. The F2P crowd are fly by night customers that leave as fast as they come and yet they continue to cater to them. While at the same time the long time standard mmorg fans are unhappy with the cash shops and DLC pay styles they are adopting to cater to the F2Ps. Content that we used to have included with our subs they now try and put in a shop to charge you for on top of your sub. So what was the sub paying for? Not server maintenance, that's cheap. The guy doesn't get that he is killing it with his own attitude. When a game like Camelot Unchained comes out and goes old school sub only and succeeds maybe he will finally start to get it.
Clearly with all of his experience in the MMOSphere, he knows better than us.
Smed knows nothing. He only thinks this cause everyone continues to leave the game EQ2 that he poorly managed. The problem isn't the genre it is the way the companies are treating it. The F2P crowd are fly by night customers that leave as fast as they come and yet they continue to cater to them.
Uhh.... seriously?
They went to FTP because subs WEREN'T MAKING MONEY. Why? Because people weren't staying long enough, because WoW style themeparks do NOT encourage long term player retention.
WoW style MMOs cost way more to make than more player driven MMOs.
And there is a big difference between saying that players with a long attention span don't enjoy bite-sized content, which I didn't say, vs. saying that players with short attention spans can't stand or can't do long content, which I did imply.
Hey, mobas are one hell of a lot more popular than any MMO and they're designed around nothing but small bites. Personally I can't stand them but there's no denying their popularity with the millennials whose lives are all about the quick fix.
There are exceptions of course.... my own 17 yr-old daughter being one who is a voracious reader and can concentrate and tune out distractions and reads much faster than me (and I'm in the same IQ range as you.)
And it doesn't mean that I don't enjoy having variety and some quick things to do when I don't have a lot of time. But that's different than the average person Smed is talking about who can't stand and won't play anything but those quick hits.
And there are plenty of games that meet those short bite sized needs. But there has also been way too much of that becoming the main game content in games that call themselves MMOs. I don't want my MMOs to be all about that or to be "mobas but with more story."
It's fine if that's what the average gamer prefers and companies that want to make tons of money should focus on making precisely those types of games because they're hot as shit right now. But I don't need some sleezoid has been hack telling me my MMOs must also become like that.
I posted in another thread recent data showing that PC players are still, far and away, the lowest session players per day while maintaining a competitive (and compared to some platforms, a higher) number of hours played per day.
It's not that the bulk of PC players absolutely cannot sink more than 20-30 minutes at a time into a game.. It's that those AAA MMORPGs that sink millions and millions of dollars into development absolutely refuse to risk alienating any segment of the PC playerbase whatsoever for the sake of design vision. Folks that can't invest more than 30 minutes are much less likely to play a game requiring more time than that to make measurable progress. Players who, in fact, do have 1-2 hours to play at a time aren't as bothered by the bite-sized chunks as the casual player who cannot stand the fact that they can't make a measurable progress in 20-30 minutes. Therefore, the casual player is less likely to stick with the hardcore game, if you will, than the normal PC player is inclined to walk away from the casual game.
However, I can't say I blame the developers much here. It's a win-win for them to divide content up into bite-sizes, as there is no limit to the number of bites the player can take at a time.
It's fine if that's what the average gamer prefers and companies that want to make tons of money should focus on making precisely those types of games because they're hot as shit right now. But I don't need some sleezoid has been hack telling me my MMOs must also become like that.
No you don't ... but by your own logic, if MMO devs want to make tons of money (or just have a large audience), shouldn't they focus on the "hot" design?
Why would they want to go back to the old traditional MMO design?
It's fine if that's what the average gamer prefers and companies that want to make tons of money should focus on making precisely those types of games because they're hot as shit right now. But I don't need some sleezoid has been hack telling me my MMOs must also become like that.
No you don't ... but by your own logic, if MMO devs want to make tons of money (or just have a large audience), shouldn't they focus on the "hot" design?
Why would they want to go back to the old traditional MMO design?
John Smedley is not making a prophecy, he is simply stating observable facts.
Big studio development time and MONEY will go to where the most profit can be made. Clearly the ROI on games that cater to the short attention span (or "commitment-challenged") masses far exceeds the ROI on massive MMORPG projects.
MMORPG's will have to be funded via Kickstarter from now on, and will mostly be produced by enthusiastic (but totally inexperienced) teams of indie developers. There might be a good one or two every 10 years or so...
It's not even a post about Wow. The guy basically says the days of "MMORPG" are over.
And the rise of FPS, ARPG, MOBA.
Wasn't what happen now ?
Nearly all AAA MMORPG projects cancel or with unknown fate while most of big game company rush to online ARPG , MOBA . FPS always here since the first FPS game come out so it age never end.
Now ,most of noticeable future MMO projects are "sandbox" or old-school type that try to capture the leftover of golden age of WoW-style
Everyone jumped to the MMO wow-style ship because the online option that they believe safer (less pirates) and would bring more profit.
But right now most of games are forced online playing , what point to keep stay at MMO wow-style ship now ?
What I don't get is that people claim that attention spans are shorter these days, yet I know tons of kids that binge watch tv shows for very long segments, because the content is interesting and engaging. The problem with the MMO market is that everyone for the last 10 years was trying to chase WoW's success, kind of like the Moba market is experiencing now. There has been very little innovation in the MMO market because of this, thus resulting in the stagnation of the genre. If these companies started focusing on making a good game instead of copying the EQ/WoW model I bet there would be an audience for that game,
What I don't get is that people claim that attention spans are shorter these days, yet I know tons of kids that binge watch tv shows for very long segments, because the content is interesting and engaging. The problem with the MMO market is that everyone for the last 10 years was trying to chase WoW's success, kind of like the Moba market is experiencing now. There has been very little innovation in the MMO market because of this, thus resulting in the stagnation of the genre. If these companies started focusing on making a good game instead of copying the EQ/WoW model I bet there would be an audience for that game,
hmm .. tv shows are nothing compared to MMOs in terms of time. The daredevil netflix series (which is great) is only 13 hours. A normal tv season is 45 min x 22 episodes.
Plus what do you mean there is no innovation in MMOs? MOBAs, instanced pvp games like WoT, pvp only world games like PS2, pve only instanced games like warframe .. there are lots of new stuff.
Originally posted by borghive49 What I don't get is that people claim that attention spans are shorter these days, yet I know tons of kids that binge watch tv shows for very long segments, because the content is interesting and engaging. The problem with the MMO market is that everyone for the last 10 years was trying to chase WoW's success, kind of like the Moba market is experiencing now. There has been very little innovation in the MMO market because of this, thus resulting in the stagnation of the genre. If these companies started focusing on making a good game instead of copying the EQ/WoW model I bet there would be an audience for that game,
hmm .. tv shows are nothing compared to MMOs in terms of time. The daredevil netflix series (which is great) is only 13 hours. A normal tv season is 45 min x 22 episodes.
Plus what do you mean there is no innovation in MMOs? MOBAs, instanced pvp games like WoT, pvp only world games like PS2, pve only instanced games like warframe .. there are lots of new stuff.
Well, he was referring to WOW style MMORPGs and the lack of innovation in them, but you knew that.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It's fine if that's what the average gamer prefers and companies that want to make tons of money should focus on making precisely those types of games because they're hot as shit right now. But I don't need some sleezoid has been hack telling me my MMOs must also become like that.
No you don't ... but by your own logic, if MMO devs want to make tons of money (or just have a large audience), shouldn't they focus on the "hot" design?
Why would they want to go back to the old traditional MMO design?
In an ultra capitalist society, it is hard for some to conceive of anything other than maximum profit being the motivator... quality, integrity, commitment are all considered pollyannaish concepts in the strict bottom line dollars and cents world. The concept of "profitable enough" seems sort of foreign nowadays doesn't it?
You see it here everyday when posters use their take on financial considerations as valid arguments in discussions about gaming development quality... as if this were the MMORPG sub-forum of the Wall Street Journal.
It'll take someone with actual commitment to quality (not just mouthing the words as a PR exercize) who would be satisfied with a modest profit and not aim for a huge windfall to move MMORPGs forward instead of devolving them into homogeneous pap for the masses.
But like I said, that's a foreign concept in NA these days... it'll probably take a foreigner to do it.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The daredevil netflix series (which is great) is only 13 hours.
Hey! Something I can agree with you on. It was awesome wasn't it? I consumed it all in one "lost Sunday" session
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Just mention the "WoW" word and you are guaranteed to get above the fold notice... don't have to say anything in particular... the word "WoW" alone makes it go viral.
The daredevil netflix series (which is great) is only 13 hours.
Hey! Something I can agree with you on. It was awesome wasn't it? I consumed it all in one "lost Sunday" session
That is what I'm talking about. MMOs are entertainment just like movies and tv shows. People have time to binge watch this stuff yet complain that old style MMOs are out dated and they don't have the time for it.
Clearly with all of his experience in the MMOSphere, he knows better than us.
Smed knows nothing. He only thinks this cause everyone continues to leave the game EQ2 that he poorly managed. The problem isn't the genre it is the way the companies are treating it. The F2P crowd are fly by night customers that leave as fast as they come and yet they continue to cater to them.
Uhh.... seriously?
They went to FTP because subs WEREN'T MAKING MONEY. Why? Because people weren't staying long enough, because WoW style themeparks do NOT encourage long term player retention.
What does this tell you?
It tells me that you assume a lot and project it as 'fact'.
You really think a game like EQ2 wasn't 'making money', or that WoW itself (because we need to include it, surely, in a discussion about WoW style games) doesn't have player retention?
I think that you confuse making a decent amount of profit with not making *enough* profit for your investors/ owners spreadsheets.
EQ2 is, what, 11 years old now. It launched in 2004, and went F2P in 2011.
Seven years of a game encouraging long term retention as a sub based themepark.
Or is this not 'long term' enough for you? If not, please say how long the nebulous 'long term' is for you to recognise it?
The daredevil netflix series (which is great) is only 13 hours.
Hey! Something I can agree with you on. It was awesome wasn't it? I consumed it all in one "lost Sunday" session
That is what I'm talking about. MMOs are entertainment just like movies and tv shows. People have time to binge watch this stuff yet complain that old style MMOs are out dated and they don't have the time for it.
yeh .. i am more than happy to give Daredevil 13 hours ...old style MMOs ... may be 15 min tops ... or not even that. That should tell you something about my preferences on entertainment.
Originally posted by Vutar This is why EQnext will be a failure. When the guy at the top makes statements like this, it is clear he has no idea what is going on. Saying people only want to play games for 45 minutes is one of the stupidest things I have heard in a long time.
-.- I want to play 45 minutes a day ..... Kids want 45 minutes a day. People who work all the time want 45 minutes a day. Everyone i know wants 45 minutes a day. The real people outside of your community want 45 minutes to play.
It is the most truthfull thing i have ever heard.
So you only watch 45 mins of tv a day? Your upset because movies (football games whatever form of entertainment you enjoy)are longer then 45 mins? Yes its so true Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit etc should all have been dumbed down to 45 min interval bites because any effort longer ithen 45, mins is just too much? God I feel sorry for you. I am a real person I work full time. implying everyone's attention spam is as short as yours just show your lack of understanding/experience. Oh and I have a 10 y/o son I've hardly ever seen him want to play a game he enjoys on his xbox for just 45 mins. I highly suspect you've never had a child of your own to make such false statements
Like Smed has anything to tell anyone about business or MMOs: as president of SOE, he oversaw several consecutive years of layoffs and studio closings,
Who would know better what DOESN'T work than someone who has seen the direct result of WoW MMOs failing?
The evidence is clear as day that WoW clones don't work.
Yes, because we ALL KNOW it was the fact they were clones or wannabes that they underperformed and not due to any of their own individual issues and faults.
Originally posted by poorben I am actually happy this is happening. The MMORPG genre needs new game style. Change or Die, that's it.
nah .. just ditch the MMORPG genre, and go to the broader MMO genre. There are plenty of new game style. MOBAs, card games, shooters, instanced pvp games, .....
All they would have to do is remake original Everquest, with all it's classes and grouping and hardcore leveling, stopping at Velious (because that is when the game started to turn into a lobby based game....with an actual in-game lobby..lol)
Put in better graphics and animation and music, and there you go, an instant MMO hit.
But as is always the case with businesses that go on more than a generation, they stray too far from their roots and what you end up with is a zombie MMO 4 years too late, and a dead-in-the-water EQ Next that no one ever wanted in the first place.
MMO genre is one genre where the players know better than the developers, and the past 10 years prove that.
Originally posted by poorben I am actually happy this is happening. The MMORPG genre needs new game style. Change or Die, that's it.
nah .. just ditch the MMORPG genre, and go to the broader MMO genre. There are plenty of new game style. MOBAs, card games, shooters, instanced pvp games, .....
How about the people, such as yourself, go play those other genres and stop trying to turn this one into something it's not?
I'm all for the genre evolving but shorter play sessions, throw away content, 15 minute matches, instanced everything is not the way to go about it. There are far better games that do those aspects better than MMORPG's. Go play them and leave this genre for players that like exploration, puzzle solving, interdependence, and socializing.
I think H1Z1 days are already over and WoW has plenty more to go. Fact is though, MMO's need to step out of the MMORPG direction and start trying to be creative in the MMO scene. And not even that creative, but make a fluid game with great gameplay elements and an online component with a reason to play online. From that point on you can develop your game further on your succes if that happens.
What developers are doing now is just blindly going the RPG route and they instantly come in WoW territory and never win. Ofcourse you get the niche who can survive like FF14, but even good MMO's tend to have a bad run because of WoW. So one solution possible here, don't make any more MMORPG, try to make something else and if the game's good people will come to your game eventually.
Too many have already tried to be as good as WoW but shinier or better, but that never works out. Ofcourse I don't say a good MMORPG will never be possible ever again, but we've seen enough fail already. If you want to create an MMORPG you need to be bigger and better than WoW and we can now say for certain that's a tough run.
H1Z1 on the other hand can be applauded for doing something else (forget about all the zombie apocolypse games releasing lately...) almost all of their design decisions seems not smart from an outsider's point of view.
Comments
Smed knows nothing. He only thinks this cause everyone continues to leave the game EQ2 that he poorly managed. The problem isn't the genre it is the way the companies are treating it. The F2P crowd are fly by night customers that leave as fast as they come and yet they continue to cater to them. While at the same time the long time standard mmorg fans are unhappy with the cash shops and DLC pay styles they are adopting to cater to the F2Ps. Content that we used to have included with our subs they now try and put in a shop to charge you for on top of your sub. So what was the sub paying for? Not server maintenance, that's cheap. The guy doesn't get that he is killing it with his own attitude. When a game like Camelot Unchained comes out and goes old school sub only and succeeds maybe he will finally start to get it.
Uhh.... seriously?
They went to FTP because subs WEREN'T MAKING MONEY. Why? Because people weren't staying long enough, because WoW style themeparks do NOT encourage long term player retention.
WoW style MMOs cost way more to make than more player driven MMOs.
Players play them for far less time.
What does this tell you?
It's not even a post about Wow. The guy basically says the days of "MMORPG" are over.
And the rise of FPS, ARPG, MOBA.
I posted in another thread recent data showing that PC players are still, far and away, the lowest session players per day while maintaining a competitive (and compared to some platforms, a higher) number of hours played per day.
It's not that the bulk of PC players absolutely cannot sink more than 20-30 minutes at a time into a game.. It's that those AAA MMORPGs that sink millions and millions of dollars into development absolutely refuse to risk alienating any segment of the PC playerbase whatsoever for the sake of design vision. Folks that can't invest more than 30 minutes are much less likely to play a game requiring more time than that to make measurable progress. Players who, in fact, do have 1-2 hours to play at a time aren't as bothered by the bite-sized chunks as the casual player who cannot stand the fact that they can't make a measurable progress in 20-30 minutes. Therefore, the casual player is less likely to stick with the hardcore game, if you will, than the normal PC player is inclined to walk away from the casual game.
However, I can't say I blame the developers much here. It's a win-win for them to divide content up into bite-sizes, as there is no limit to the number of bites the player can take at a time.
No you don't ... but by your own logic, if MMO devs want to make tons of money (or just have a large audience), shouldn't they focus on the "hot" design?
Why would they want to go back to the old traditional MMO design?
John Smedley is not making a prophecy, he is simply stating observable facts.
Big studio development time and MONEY will go to where the most profit can be made. Clearly the ROI on games that cater to the short attention span (or "commitment-challenged") masses far exceeds the ROI on massive MMORPG projects.
MMORPG's will have to be funded via Kickstarter from now on, and will mostly be produced by enthusiastic (but totally inexperienced) teams of indie developers. There might be a good one or two every 10 years or so...
Wasn't what happen now ?
Nearly all AAA MMORPG projects cancel or with unknown fate while most of big game company rush to online ARPG , MOBA . FPS always here since the first FPS game come out so it age never end.
Now ,most of noticeable future MMO projects are "sandbox" or old-school type that try to capture the leftover of golden age of WoW-style
Everyone jumped to the MMO wow-style ship because the online option that they believe safer (less pirates) and would bring more profit.
But right now most of games are forced online playing , what point to keep stay at MMO wow-style ship now ?
What I don't get is that people claim that attention spans are shorter these days, yet I know tons of kids that binge watch tv shows for very long segments, because the content is interesting and engaging. The problem with the MMO market is that everyone for the last 10 years was trying to chase WoW's success, kind of like the Moba market is experiencing now. There has been very little innovation in the MMO market because of this, thus resulting in the stagnation of the genre. If these companies started focusing on making a good game instead of copying the EQ/WoW model I bet there would be an audience for that game,
hmm .. tv shows are nothing compared to MMOs in terms of time. The daredevil netflix series (which is great) is only 13 hours. A normal tv season is 45 min x 22 episodes.
Plus what do you mean there is no innovation in MMOs? MOBAs, instanced pvp games like WoT, pvp only world games like PS2, pve only instanced games like warframe .. there are lots of new stuff.
hmm .. tv shows are nothing compared to MMOs in terms of time. The daredevil netflix series (which is great) is only 13 hours. A normal tv season is 45 min x 22 episodes.
Plus what do you mean there is no innovation in MMOs? MOBAs, instanced pvp games like WoT, pvp only world games like PS2, pve only instanced games like warframe .. there are lots of new stuff.
Well, he was referring to WOW style MMORPGs and the lack of innovation in them, but you knew that."True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In an ultra capitalist society, it is hard for some to conceive of anything other than maximum profit being the motivator... quality, integrity, commitment are all considered pollyannaish concepts in the strict bottom line dollars and cents world. The concept of "profitable enough" seems sort of foreign nowadays doesn't it?
You see it here everyday when posters use their take on financial considerations as valid arguments in discussions about gaming development quality... as if this were the MMORPG sub-forum of the Wall Street Journal.
It'll take someone with actual commitment to quality (not just mouthing the words as a PR exercize) who would be satisfied with a modest profit and not aim for a huge windfall to move MMORPGs forward instead of devolving them into homogeneous pap for the masses.
But like I said, that's a foreign concept in NA these days... it'll probably take a foreigner to do it.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Hey! Something I can agree with you on. It was awesome wasn't it? I consumed it all in one "lost Sunday" session
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
That is what I'm talking about. MMOs are entertainment just like movies and tv shows. People have time to binge watch this stuff yet complain that old style MMOs are out dated and they don't have the time for it.
It tells me that you assume a lot and project it as 'fact'.
You really think a game like EQ2 wasn't 'making money', or that WoW itself (because we need to include it, surely, in a discussion about WoW style games) doesn't have player retention?
I think that you confuse making a decent amount of profit with not making *enough* profit for your investors/ owners spreadsheets.
EQ2 is, what, 11 years old now. It launched in 2004, and went F2P in 2011.
Seven years of a game encouraging long term retention as a sub based themepark.
Or is this not 'long term' enough for you? If not, please say how long the nebulous 'long term' is for you to recognise it?
Basic business sense, if you have the most popular and profitable mmorpg on the planet you don't make another one that directly competes with it.
Blizzard will make another mmorpg when WoW dies, that that won't be for a long time.
yeh .. i am more than happy to give Daredevil 13 hours ...old style MMOs ... may be 15 min tops ... or not even that. That should tell you something about my preferences on entertainment.
Very awesome. It was so well reviewed, and popular that a second season is already announced.
And certainly it is much better than any MMOs, for me, of course.
So you only watch 45 mins of tv a day? Your upset because movies (football games whatever form of entertainment you enjoy)are longer then 45 mins? Yes its so true Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit etc should all have been dumbed down to 45 min interval bites because any effort longer ithen 45, mins is just too much? God I feel sorry for you. I am a real person I work full time. implying everyone's attention spam is as short as yours just show your lack of understanding/experience. Oh and I have a 10 y/o son I've hardly ever seen him want to play a game he enjoys on his xbox for just 45 mins. I highly suspect you've never had a child of your own to make such false statements
Yes, because we ALL KNOW it was the fact they were clones or wannabes that they underperformed and not due to any of their own individual issues and faults.
nah .. just ditch the MMORPG genre, and go to the broader MMO genre. There are plenty of new game style. MOBAs, card games, shooters, instanced pvp games, .....
All they would have to do is remake original Everquest, with all it's classes and grouping and hardcore leveling, stopping at Velious (because that is when the game started to turn into a lobby based game....with an actual in-game lobby..lol)
Put in better graphics and animation and music, and there you go, an instant MMO hit.
But as is always the case with businesses that go on more than a generation, they stray too far from their roots and what you end up with is a zombie MMO 4 years too late, and a dead-in-the-water EQ Next that no one ever wanted in the first place.
MMO genre is one genre where the players know better than the developers, and the past 10 years prove that.
How about the people, such as yourself, go play those other genres and stop trying to turn this one into something it's not?
I'm all for the genre evolving but shorter play sessions, throw away content, 15 minute matches, instanced everything is not the way to go about it. There are far better games that do those aspects better than MMORPG's. Go play them and leave this genre for players that like exploration, puzzle solving, interdependence, and socializing.
I think H1Z1 days are already over and WoW has plenty more to go. Fact is though, MMO's need to step out of the MMORPG direction and start trying to be creative in the MMO scene. And not even that creative, but make a fluid game with great gameplay elements and an online component with a reason to play online. From that point on you can develop your game further on your succes if that happens.
What developers are doing now is just blindly going the RPG route and they instantly come in WoW territory and never win. Ofcourse you get the niche who can survive like FF14, but even good MMO's tend to have a bad run because of WoW. So one solution possible here, don't make any more MMORPG, try to make something else and if the game's good people will come to your game eventually.
Too many have already tried to be as good as WoW but shinier or better, but that never works out. Ofcourse I don't say a good MMORPG will never be possible ever again, but we've seen enough fail already. If you want to create an MMORPG you need to be bigger and better than WoW and we can now say for certain that's a tough run.
H1Z1 on the other hand can be applauded for doing something else (forget about all the zombie apocolypse games releasing lately...) almost all of their design decisions seems not smart from an outsider's point of view.