New players and the expansion. Massive barrier to entry. You have been warned.

XImpalerX · May 2015

Originally posted by Tymoris
How come the content before the expansion won't become obsolete?

Won't the people that can do the new content have little to no reason to bother with it?

And the people that haven't done it yet would just find it harder what with less people bothering with it?

Unless of course we assume FF14 has reached its peak so we shouldn't expect any new player influx.

Maybe at first yes, but SE has two systems in place to keep old content relevant.

1. Barrier entry. Any new players will still have to do the old content. New players cant skip the old content.

2. High level incentive. If you are playing now, you know what this means, if not, it means SE has rewards for max level players or systems in place that forces max level players to run old content i.e. Relic weapon/roulettes

Of course we wont really know until the expansion has been out several months, because for the first few weeks every level 50 will be getting to 60 and nothing else probably.

XImpalerX · May 2015

Originally posted by Tymoris
Originally posted by nbtscan
I'm late to the party, so it's hard for me to say "before everyone jumps down Foomerang's throat"...

Foom has been posting on these forums for a long time so I know by the context of his past posts where he's coming from. He's not really into the combat-oriented activities in the game. He's into crafting, gathering and all of the other non-combat content. And ARR allows for that.

With that said...I personally like the direction the game is going. It's been known since back in beta for ARR that the structure of the game was changing greatly and that DoL/DoH wouldn't be able to progress through the main branch of the game on their own merits. Everyone had to level a battle class to get to the "end game", which means different things for different people.

Story is a huge focus for this game, and like others have brought up, gating the expansion content behind finishing the 2.x story creates the continuity needed to progress through the new story. Some people may not care about this, I know, but this is how the developers have made the game and people either embrace it, deal with it, or not play it at all.

Getting to the point of completing the main story isn't very difficult. How fast you get there depends on how much time you have to play really. I've seen reddit posts of players making it through the main story within a week and already working on gearing up to get through the ilvl requirements of the last leg. I know in Foom's case it's not a matter of not being able to do, it's a matter of not wanting to. There's just really no choice if you want to experience the Heavensward content though.

Originally posted by Tymoris
You don't need to go right into thte expansion but it seems SE didn't learn anything from Chains of Promathia from FFXI.

Two completely difference cases. CoP was unique in the fact that it made you go back and do lower level capped content to progress through the story.

Cop was unique also that if you joined the game late and unless you had enough people with enough time to go through all the missions that involved capped levels and no rewards you were pretty much hosed. That is until SE finally figured it out and allowed to to be solo.

For me that will be the problem with the FF14 expansion, it will probably end up the same. Unless of course the population that is in the in between new player and veteran is so healthy to allow steady progression.

After all they aren't saying "Be 50 with this high item level to do the unlock missions". They say "Do all the previous content because it's better to have arbitary hurdles to prolong the game's life".

But if you are a new player who has yet to progress through the game, then it isn't previous content. it is all brand new.

sagewisdom · May 2015

Originally posted by Tymoris
How come the content before the expansion won't become obsolete?

Won't the people that can do the new content have little to no reason to bother with it?

And the people that haven't done it yet would just find it harder what with less people bothering with it?

Unless of course we assume FF14 has reached its peak so we shouldn't expect any new player influx.

Well:

1) New players will be doing the content so there's that.

2) New jobs start at 30 so they'll be doing at least Brayflox up to level.

3) Duty Roulette

4) Free Comapnies like to help their players.

5) Duty Finder is cross server

6) They are actually making it possible to go into dungeons with less players now

7) Players that haven't crossed the threshold will be doing old content

8) Friends can queue together

9) Nice players like to help out

10) Triple Triad Cards

Tymoris · May 2015

Well I really hope then they have learnt their lesson from their mistakes in 11.

I liked the narrative of ff14 and really wanted to pick it up again but I don't think I can go through the same hurdles that I found in ff11 to finish all the missions.

Tymoris · May 2015

Originally posted by sagewisdom
Originally posted by Tymoris
How come the content before the expansion won't become obsolete?

Won't the people that can do the new content have little to no reason to bother with it?

And the people that haven't done it yet would just find it harder what with less people bothering with it?

Unless of course we assume FF14 has reached its peak so we shouldn't expect any new player influx.

Well:

1) New players will be doing the content so there's that.

2) New jobs start at 30 so they'll be doing at least Brayflox up to level.

3) Duty Roulette

4) Free Comapnies like to help their players.

5) Duty Finder is cross server

6) They are actually making it possible to go into dungeons with less players now

7) Players that haven't crossed the threshold will be doing old content

8) Friends can queue together

9) Nice players like to help out

10) Triple Triad Cards

Pretty nice, at least that it seems they keep an eye out to make it easier to do grouping than before.

sagewisdom · May 2015

Originally posted by Torval
Foom, sorry to hear the update isn't working out.

From an outside perspective, it is a dumb design choice to put up large barriers on an expansion. A level requirement for combat zones can make sense if the mobs are in a level range of x to z. However, it's good to let the rest of the community in to do non-combat activities. Neverwinter has done this (Icewindale in particular) and it didn't work out well for them. I'm sure there are a couple other examples that illustrate this as a poor design choice.

I guess the question of the game being linear, tightly directed, and completely on rails has been answered. The question about the quality of subscription communities has been answered too. It's a pretty poor quality community that would turn on their own when a little criticism is brought up.

FFXIV has always been a story centric game. Most of the game is unlocked by doing the story. Foom's attitude is the only reason he was hit hard by the community; he sounded like a child screaming that he doesn't want to be told what to do.

FFXIV has never once hidden the fact that it's plot comes first and anyone playing for a time should know this.

And, seriously, this game is not a sandbox. It has sandbox activities but it has always been proclaimed as a themepark game. Trying to play it like a sandbox would obviously only get you so far, and those new zones? Yeah, they are made for people that can get through the requirement.

A wild Chocobo is level 52.

But, seriously, it makes no sense to experience the game all the way up to 50 and then suddenly think the game doesn't need you to do Main Story Quests from that point onwards. It's right there in the name.

And, honestly, he might not be able to experience the new zones but crafters and gatherers will still have:

1) Leveling up to 60

2) New cross class and regular skills

3) Specialization

4) Treasure Hunting

5) Free Company Airship crafting

6) Scrips

7) Crafting and Gathering Story Quests

But, let's be honest here, when has this game ever proclaimed that crafters and gatherers were anything but side ventures? While they treat them with respect by making them fully flushed out classes, they have always emphasized that you are an adventurer - an adventurer that saves the world. You can't even start off as one of them. To just be a crafter and gatherer is an obvious loss of focus.

And, hell, the Main Story Quests are extremely easy in this game. Run here, talk there, have a couple of battles, a trial each patch, a couple of dungeons, a Crystal Tower run there, watch some cutscenes and your done. If you can't handle that, why would you even play a game that obviously has a PvE combat focus in the first place?

aesperus · May 2015

Originally posted by Foomerang
You know this is by far the best mmorpg I've played since swg, right? Yes this is a criticism of a game I love oh my gawd lol

Some of you take this way to personally like I'm kicking your puppy. Yes this is the largest barrier to entry I have experience in an mmo. There are many story driven MMOs that get you caught up to the current chapter in the span of a few quests, not hundreds.

It's OK to like a game without worshipping every detail. Real mature on some of you to come straight at me over a game.

Anyway, still playing the game. Still going to trudge through these mundane quests so I can enjoy the new awesome expansion. Still pointing out this is not a good decision on the devs part but it is what it is.

The problem is your "criticism" amounts to basically 'All I want to do is craft in this game, I bought the expansion without doing any real research on it, and now I'm bummed it doesn't cater specifically to me.'

That's not criticism. Criticism is taking a harsh, honest look at something; and trying to analyze it's strengths, weaknesses, and means for improvement. In most ways it's an academic exercise. Except you've done none of those things. You've complained, you've warned others that if they have your same needs with the game and have also done zero research they may also be disappointed. Which is all fine and good, but throwing the word critique on it doesn't make it so.

I'm sorry you feel you got screwed with the expac. I don't necessarily think it's the best way they could've done an xpac, however it's not necessarily bad design either (within the scope of FFXIV:ARR the game itself). However what you posted still amounts to glorified whining.

Hope you've found a way to enjoy the new content. I myself am not currently playing, but thinking about trying it again at some point once I have more free time.

mayanking · May 2015

glad at the last moment i choose witcher 3 over heavensword after the first update in ff14 i didn't even read the story cause it was really bad to me. hated the annoying grindfest in such a casual mmo.

TurnX · May 2015

Originally posted by Tymoris
After all they aren't saying "Be 50 with this high item level to do the unlock missions". They say "Do all the previous content because it's better to have arbitary hurdles to prolong the game's life".

You could argue that leveling from 1-50 is an arbitrary hurdle. Why don't they just let us be level 1 and start taking down raid bosees? It's because we are playing an RPG and a major cornerstone of any good RPG, whether it's an MMO or single player, is progression. Level progression and story progression are really the same thing, you are advancing your character through the game. I think people get caught up on their character level as some sort of end point and that's where things stop. Especially in a MMO there has to be more beyond that or people will lose interest.

Now I do think SE takes the story progression far more seriously than other game devs, but that have spent a lot of time/effort on the 2.1 to 2.55 content and it plays into the expansion very heavily. I think people just need to look past the arbitrary level cap and realize that level 50 is not the end of the current game, 2.55 is.

aesperus · May 2015

Originally posted by TurnX
Originally posted by Tymoris
After all they aren't saying "Be 50 with this high item level to do the unlock missions". They say "Do all the previous content because it's better to have arbitary hurdles to prolong the game's life".

You could argue that leveling from 1-50 is an arbitrary hurdle. Why don't they just let us be level 1 and start taking down raid bosees? It's because we are playing an RPG and a major cornerstone of any good RPG, whether it's an MMO or single player, is progression. Level progression and story progression are really the same thing, you are advancing your character through the game. I think people get caught up on their character level as some sort of end point and that's where things stop. Especially in a MMO there has to be more beyond that or people will lose interest.

Now I do think SE takes the story progression far more seriously than other game devs, but that have spent a lot of time/effort on the 2.1 to 2.55 content and it plays into the expansion very heavily. I think people just need to look past the arbitrary level cap and realize that level 50 is not the end of the current game, 2.55 is.

Everyone who signed up for this game elected to participate in arbitrary hurdles. That's what a vertical progression themepark is all about. It's still kind of amazing how often people complain about how this system works, and yet keep coming back to it.

I would say though that the emphasis on story does tend to set SE MMOs apart from others. It does tend to make them a bit more grindy, but it also tends to make your characters feel more involved than a lot of other games.

rojoArcueid · May 2015

my highest lvl in FF is in the 30s and i never noticed there was ilvl in that game. WTH is up with mmos getting this gear score gargabe mechanic. Leave that to WoW which has the hardcore raiders pursuing their high numbers.

Thanks OP for all that info. I was waiting for the expansion to come back to the game. I just lost my interest.... So sick of gear scores in mmos its not even funny. Glad i dont have to worry about that in GW2.

Tymoris · May 2015

Originally posted by TurnX
Originally posted by Tymoris
After all they aren't saying "Be 50 with this high item level to do the unlock missions". They say "Do all the previous content because it's better to have arbitary hurdles to prolong the game's life".

You could argue that leveling from 1-50 is an arbitrary hurdle. Why don't they just let us be level 1 and start taking down raid bosees? It's because we are playing an RPG and a major cornerstone of any good RPG, whether it's an MMO or single player, is progression. Level progression and story progression are really the same thing, you are advancing your character through the game. I think people get caught up on their character level as some sort of end point and that's where things stop. Especially in a MMO there has to be more beyond that or people will lose interest.

Now I do think SE takes the story progression far more seriously than other game devs, but that have spent a lot of time/effort on the 2.1 to 2.55 content and it plays into the expansion very heavily. I think people just need to look past the arbitrary level cap and realize that level 50 is not the end of the current game, 2.55 is.

Level progression is not arbitary because by its nature you can plan around it as a form of progression. Missions though that are mandatory and require forced grouping is arbitary because you can't plan around it. (We assume here that one doesnt' have RL friends that play the game).

I agree that the story is a form of progression but again my concern has to do mostly with the content as it progresses and population starts to dwindle.

Honestly I'd prefer if SE just let players had some partial acess to the content, through quests and such and the final missions to have full access to it. For example having quests/missions to get the new jobs. Though from what I read even the new jobs will start at 30 level so meh.

Tyggs · May 2015

Originally posted by TurnX
Originally posted by Tymoris
After all they aren't saying "Be 50 with this high item level to do the unlock missions". They say "Do all the previous content because it's better to have arbitary hurdles to prolong the game's life".

You could argue that leveling from 1-50 is an arbitrary hurdle. Why don't they just let us be level 1 and start taking down raid bosees? It's because we are playing an RPG and a major cornerstone of any good RPG, whether it's an MMO or single player, is progression. Level progression and story progression are really the same thing, you are advancing your character through the game. I think people get caught up on their character level as some sort of end point and that's where things stop. Especially in a MMO there has to be more beyond that or people will lose interest.

Now I do think SE takes the story progression far more seriously than other game devs, but that have spent a lot of time/effort on the 2.1 to 2.55 content and it plays into the expansion very heavily. I think people just need to look past the arbitrary level cap and realize that level 50 is not the end of the current game, 2.55 is.

Pretty much this. Your level is how strong your character is. Your story completion is what your character has done. If your character has not done enough yet, then the events of Heavensward have not happened in your story.

TurnX · May 2015

Originally posted by Tymoris
Originally posted by TurnX
Originally posted by Tymoris
After all they aren't saying "Be 50 with this high item level to do the unlock missions". They say "Do all the previous content because it's better to have arbitary hurdles to prolong the game's life".

You could argue that leveling from 1-50 is an arbitrary hurdle. Why don't they just let us be level 1 and start taking down raid bosees? It's because we are playing an RPG and a major cornerstone of any good RPG, whether it's an MMO or single player, is progression. Level progression and story progression are really the same thing, you are advancing your character through the game. I think people get caught up on their character level as some sort of end point and that's where things stop. Especially in a MMO there has to be more beyond that or people will lose interest.

Now I do think SE takes the story progression far more seriously than other game devs, but that have spent a lot of time/effort on the 2.1 to 2.55 content and it plays into the expansion very heavily. I think people just need to look past the arbitrary level cap and realize that level 50 is not the end of the current game, 2.55 is.

Level progression is not arbitary because by its nature you can plan around it as a form of progression. Missions though that are mandatory and require forced grouping is arbitary because you can't plan around it. (We assume here that one doesnt' have RL friends that play the game).

I agree that the story is a form of progression but again my concern has to do mostly with the content as it progresses and population starts to dwindle.

Honestly I'd prefer if SE just let players had some partial acess to the content, through quests and such and the final missions to have full access to it. For example having quests/missions to get the new jobs. Though from what I read even the new jobs will start at 30 level so meh.

I think level progression is arbitrary though. SE could have simply removed level 1-50 and called it content progression. You are no longer lvl 30 but instead pre 2.1. If they had done that then we wouldn't be having this argument, people would naturally see 2.55 as the end, not level 50.

In reality though SE did include levels 1-50 and I understand full well why people are confused that after 50 they have to do more in order to move onto the expansion. I came back to FFXIV right after playing the latest WoW expansion and each game handles this aspect totally different. The issue I see is people calling this a hurdle. With FFXIV this approach makes sense, the game is far more story driven than any other MMO I played. I honestly think people would complain more being dropped into Ishgard without any clue as to what is going on.

Satimasu · May 2015

What blows me away is that you didn't know this until right now. People have been going back and forth on this for a couple of months now. I think you are blowing this a bit out of proportion though. It's not nearly as massive barrier you're trying to say it is. But I get it, it caught you by surprise.

nbtscan · May 2015

Originally posted by Torval
The question about the quality of subscription communities has been answered too. It's a pretty poor quality community that would turn on their own when a little criticism is brought up.

That's a pretty cheap jab. What am I supposed to say about the F2P community; oh wait, there isn't really one. People stay long enough until they hit a paywall and hop to the next flavor of the month MMO. Unless you're the whale that wants to dump 10 years worth of subscription fees into a game to flex your muscles over the poverty plebians.

EponyxDamor · May 2015

I don't really see how this is a problem. I picked the game back up about three months ago. Within one month, I was all caught up on quests and iLvl, and I play fairly casually (only 2-3 days a week for 2-3 hours at most). It really doesn't take that long, and for new players, it gives even more content for them to enjoy while progressing through the game's story; something which, by the way, most FF players expect.

Finishing the story from 2.1->2.55 took me maybe 12 hours to complete, and getting iLvl 90 was really simple, since you can purchase soldiery gear which is iLvl100 and can easily be upgraded to iLvl110. I started at iLvl 60~ maybe, and was iLvl 115+ within two weeks.

SE has done a fantastic job of making previous content relevant to end-game, especially in the form of relic weapons, grand company hunts, beast man dailies, etc. There's definitely no shortage of people doing the content.

Tymoris · May 2015

Originally posted by TurnX
Originally posted by Tymoris
Originally posted by TurnX
Originally posted by Tymoris
After all they aren't saying "Be 50 with this high item level to do the unlock missions". They say "Do all the previous content because it's better to have arbitary hurdles to prolong the game's life".

You could argue that leveling from 1-50 is an arbitrary hurdle. Why don't they just let us be level 1 and start taking down raid bosees? It's because we are playing an RPG and a major cornerstone of any good RPG, whether it's an MMO or single player, is progression. Level progression and story progression are really the same thing, you are advancing your character through the game. I think people get caught up on their character level as some sort of end point and that's where things stop. Especially in a MMO there has to be more beyond that or people will lose interest.

Now I do think SE takes the story progression far more seriously than other game devs, but that have spent a lot of time/effort on the 2.1 to 2.55 content and it plays into the expansion very heavily. I think people just need to look past the arbitrary level cap and realize that level 50 is not the end of the current game, 2.55 is.

Level progression is not arbitary because by its nature you can plan around it as a form of progression. Missions though that are mandatory and require forced grouping is arbitary because you can't plan around it. (We assume here that one doesnt' have RL friends that play the game).

I agree that the story is a form of progression but again my concern has to do mostly with the content as it progresses and population starts to dwindle.

Honestly I'd prefer if SE just let players had some partial acess to the content, through quests and such and the final missions to have full access to it. For example having quests/missions to get the new jobs. Though from what I read even the new jobs will start at 30 level so meh.

I think level progression is arbitrary though. SE could have simply removed level 1-50 and called it content progression. You are no longer lvl 30 but instead pre 2.1. If they had done that then we wouldn't be having this argument, people would naturally see 2.55 as the end, not level 50.

In reality though SE did include levels 1-50 and I understand full well why people are confused that after 50 they have to do more in order to move onto the expansion. I came back to FFXIV right after playing the latest WoW expansion and each game handles this aspect totally different. The issue I see is people calling this a hurdle. With FFXIV this approach makes sense, the game is far more story driven than any other MMO I played. I honestly think people would complain more being dropped into Ishgard without any clue as to what is going on.

Yes but the levels you are mentioning you can get them in a number of ways and not forced in one specific way to go through it. Unlike missions which, if memory serves, a lot of them require grouping. Which btw long term it will affect the whole thing for any late comer and alll.

Other than that I think most people complain mostly cause they are worried they won't be able to access the content due to lack of interest/population for people to finish the older content required, personally am mostly surprised they won't even allow the new jobs without full access to the content, which is surprising since coming from FF11 unlocking jobs were unrelated to the main mission and the entry requirement for each expansion were more open natured.

Tymoris · May 2015

Originally posted by EponyxDamor
I don't really see how this is a problem. I picked the game back up about three months ago. Within one month, I was all caught up on quests and iLvl, and I play fairly casually (only 2-3 days a week for 2-3 hours at most). It really doesn't take that long, and for new players, it gives even more content for them to enjoy while progressing through the game's story; something which, by the way, most FF players expect.

Finishing the story from 2.1->2.55 took me maybe 12 hours to complete, and getting iLvl 90 was really simple, since you can purchase soldiery gear which is iLvl100 and can easily be upgraded to iLvl110. I started at iLvl 60~ maybe, and was iLvl 115+ within two weeks.

SE has done a fantastic job of making previous content relevant to end-game, especially in the form of relic weapons, grand company hunts, beast man dailies, etc. There's definitely no shortage of people doing the content.

That's good to read.

Well I resubscribed to check what they have added myself since I've been out for quite a bit, so ket's see what they have improved. (Hopefully levelling is not still all about a gw2 style of griding)

ellobo29 · May 2015

If you played the old FF online you would know that this "barrier" is quite minor in comparison to the older game....

Distopia · May 2015

Originally posted by Mandodo69
Originally posted by Distopia
Sounds like they don't want anyone to treat this game as anything but a typical achievement grind.

Well, that made no sense. Congratulations. For you : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZN1HowUV5Q

It made more sense than your follow up. As I was referring to what the OP was saying IE "sounds like"...

EponyxDamor · May 2015

Originally posted by Tymoris
Originally posted by EponyxDamor
I don't really see how this is a problem. I picked the game back up about three months ago. Within one month, I was all caught up on quests and iLvl, and I play fairly casually (only 2-3 days a week for 2-3 hours at most). It really doesn't take that long, and for new players, it gives even more content for them to enjoy while progressing through the game's story; something which, by the way, most FF players expect.

Finishing the story from 2.1->2.55 took me maybe 12 hours to complete, and getting iLvl 90 was really simple, since you can purchase soldiery gear which is iLvl100 and can easily be upgraded to iLvl110. I started at iLvl 60~ maybe, and was iLvl 115+ within two weeks.

SE has done a fantastic job of making previous content relevant to end-game, especially in the form of relic weapons, grand company hunts, beast man dailies, etc. There's definitely no shortage of people doing the content.

That's good to read.

Well I resubscribed to check what they have added myself since I've been out for quite a bit, so ket's see what they have improved. (Hopefully levelling is not still all about a gw2 style of griding)

If you played during 1.0, the game is drastically better. If you played 2.0-2.1 or so, the game is drastically larger in terms of content.

Honestly, it's remarkable how much they've added to the game in a year's time. It's easily enough to comprise what most games would call an "expansion". There's now more post-level-50 quests than pre-level-50 quests-in the main storyline.

Chocobo racing, chocobo customization, retainer ventures, triple triad minigame, gold saucer minigames, crystal tower raids, multiple new dungeons, new hard mode dungeons, PvP system, new primals, new hard mode primals, new extreme mode primals, hunts, extended relic weapon quests, added grand company content, marriage system, housing system ...

It's a long list, and it keeps going.

FFXIV is definitely one of the few MMOs that, I fell, warrants an actual subscription. The rate at which they add content and storyline far outweighs the cost of $15/m.

sagewisdom · May 2015

The only real issue I have is that i90 gear isn't given to you as a reward as you go through patch content. Say, have every Primal Trial/Chrysilis quest end with a piece of gear so that by the time you get to Steps, so long as you stuck to your main - as someone doing the story is bound to do - you would be i90 by time you get to Steps.

I know it's easier to get better gear but I feel someone who would be focusing on the story - whether because they like it or want to get into Heavensward - should be able to do that: focus on the story. They should be able to focus on only doing story quests - at least when it comes to gear requirements. I mean 1 - 50 helps you (for the most part) get to each level with minimal outside resources needed for your first class/job.

EponyxDamor · May 2015

Originally posted by sagewisdom
The only real issue I have is that i90 gear isn't given to you as a reward as you go through patch content. Say, have every Primal Trial/Chrysilis quest end with a piece of gear so that by the time you get to Steps, so long as you stuck to your main - as someone doing the story is bound to do - you would be i90 by time you get to Steps.

I know it's easier to get better gear but I feel someone who would be focusing on the story - whether because they like it or want to get into Heavensward - should be able to do that: focus on the story. They should be able to focus on only doing story quests - at least when it comes to gear requirements. I mean 1 - 50 helps you (for the most part) get to each level with minimal outside resources needed for your first class/job.

Some of the instanced quests do give you loot rewards. Minstrel's Ballad, for instance. You also do normal instances which drop iLvl90 gear as part of the story quests.

Kajidourden · May 2015

TL;DR

QQQ QQQ QQ Q

I have to do PvE in a PvE-centric game, QQQ QQQ QQ Q

Seriously, the ONLY person this is a barrier to is yourself and the 10 other people who literally do nothing but craft. %100 pure crafters are a niche of a niche, and in a sub game, that's pretty small.

We all get that you're upset, but your attempt to make it something it is not is just...sad.

Howdy, Stranger!

New players and the expansion. Massive barrier to entry. You have been warned.

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

New players and the expansion. Massive barrier to entry. You have been warned.

Comments