I don't think it's the message people are adverse to, it's the delivery. It's a standard fare PvP elitist attitude. So called "hardcore" PvP elitist will find nothing wrong with the statement because they are of like mind. That said, no one should really be surprised to hear this coming from a PvP-centric MMORPG developer. Their mindset is no different than that of the average OWPvP gamer. What can you say about game developers that continue to develop "non-consensual" OWPvP MMORPGs despite their long history of failures. They can't help it and know no better. Its in the DNA.
Well i should mention that the term "Balance" is often misused.
What does balance mean?Do you really want each class and build to have 100% identical numbers?So you hit with any weapon and it always hits the same?Every healing mechanic returns identical healing numbers?The combat and game would big time suck.
The way a game SHOULD work is paper/rock/scissors when comes to pvp especially.That is called active and reactive combat,for each situation you should have a reaction move.Now in saying that i have yet to see ANY developer aside from FFXI give this at least an attempt.
You need a lot of properties in a game and skills to pull off good pvp and that is just a start.Then you need solid VARIOUS weapon choices and maps designed to support pvp.Example a fire suit defends well against water based attacks or armor works good versus some melee attacks but not against magic etc etc.Again this all takes a lot f owork and design,a game should never feel like it was half assed done.
I seriously don't know why anyone would get involved with a pvp rpg,it will NEVER be done better than half ass and i mean NEVER any dev tells you otherwise they are feeding you a load of crap.I was playing online pvp likely before most developers even knew what it was and how it worked and did not work.
Show me ONE rpg pvp game that makes maps designed for it?Then ask yourself are those maps actually any good?
Just scratching the surface,you should have splash type damage,single target damage,guessing damage "if a dev doesn't know what that means,they should quit designing games immediately.Team work ideas like perhaps one player lays down some oil while another ignites it etc etc,many ideas can stem from that idea.
What is a total joke in these games is automated healing,example a player does some somersault that auto heals everyone nearby,retarded gimmicks like that turn me off.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by Neo_Liberty It's hard to judge considering we don't know the context of the statement... or what it was in response to.
Well they're the ones that did it lol. It was a single quote feature at the top of their email, and the subject of the email was the same as the one in this thread. If it was taken out of context they did it to themselves.
Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage.
Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others.
...
I actually thoroughly enjoyed that video, especially the part about balancing combat and classes around group play rather than 1v1. These guy really get it. However, its still a tactless statement and sadly, revealing of who they really are: elitists.
What he should have said is that "you are not playing to your classes strengths, and need to focus on those strengths or select a class that better suits your playstyle."
I agree still context is key.
Let's crucify devs over nothing.... yep that sums up a segment of gamer forums
See my last post, I was not doing that. Thank you for accusing though. It is their own fault, they sent the email as that, no video or context included. It was a random quote.
Exactly - imagine a person who designed the class might have some insight into the most optimal way to play that class.
Shocking, isn't it?
heh
Not shocking...a nightmare. Any time a dev has to try to tell players "the best way to play" that is a game to stay away from.
A good dev watches how people play and then tunes the character, not try to tell people what they are doing wrong or how much they suck.
Telling people how wrong they are might make some feel better...but does not seem to be a way to make people like, and want to keep playing a game. Pay me a salary..and i will be happy to do things your way...expect me to pay you so you can tell me i suck?....good luck with that.
Not necessarily, unless the dev is just regurgitating content that's been done before in other games. However, if a developer creates something that plays differently and functions differently than how players are normally used to, it makes sense for the devs to explain how and why it is different.
An example of that is ships in EVE Online. Someone coming from the standard fare of EQ/WOW style games will get a ship to love and cherish and hold forever, only to be devastated once it is blown to smithereens. Would you suggest making the ships of EVE permanent? Of course not, as that breaks a big portion of the core gameplay. Isn't it a more reasonable solution to explain to the player how the ships of EVE function, why they are different, and how to best use them?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There's absolutely nothing remotely elitist or even PvP-specific about that comment. It's just common sense that the point of having classes is to not have them be the same. So a class will be better in some situations and worse than others. Just like in any other game with classes.
Sounds like the devs took their own quote out of context for drama value.
Just PR hype speak not unlike what Wildstar was going for with their spin.
The reality is that Crowfall is a F2P game: they want you no matter what and are trying to appeal to your ego since very few people consider themselves "bad."
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Honesty is a sign of respect. What I mean by that is, most devs don't give players respect enough to be honest with them. Which often backfires at some point. As people aren't as dumb as they think.
Here is a dev being brutally honest, that's rare.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just PR hype speak not unlike what Wildstar was going for with their spin.
The reality is that Crowfall is a F2P game: they want you no matter what and are trying to appeal to your ego since very few people consider themselves "bad."
That is a really really good point. There is no such thing as a niche F2P game, the model doesn't support it. The foundation for a F2P game is millions of players all buying 5 dollar hats and XP pots.
Exactly - imagine a person who designed the class might have some insight into the most optimal way to play that class.
Shocking, isn't it?
heh
Not shocking...a nightmare. Any time a dev has to try to tell players "the best way to play" that is a game to stay away from.
A good dev watches how people play and then tunes the character, not try to tell people what they are doing wrong or how much they suck.
Telling people how wrong they are might make some feel better...but does not seem to be a way to make people like, and want to keep playing a game. Pay me a salary..and i will be happy to do things your way...expect me to pay you so you can tell me i suck?....good luck with that.
I have to disagree with you. There is way too much hand holding in gaming these days. You should be willing and required to learn how to play your chosen class and pick a class that suits your strengths. Yes perhaps you might suck at it at first, but once you master it the rewards will be yourself being better at it than most if not all players. And being a useful member to your team, plus the personal achievement of becoming good at something you was bad at for a while.
It shouldn't be tuned for you to just jump in and be a master straight away, I'm so bored of how easy and cookie cutter classes are becoming in mmo's. Everything is designed to be dumbed down and balanced against everything in the entire game. It's a boring way of doing things. Whats wrong with challenging people to learn and get good at something instead of just giving them a nice easy experience boring out the gate?
The amount of people complaining about balance for every game these days is normally 9 times outta 10 because they aren't very good and there is nothing wrong with the game design/mechanics. This isn't a bad thing but they should learn and practice to get better the game shouldn't be changed to suit them it should be as the Devs intended and hopefully that will be a challenging experience with a sense of achievement at the end of it all.
Failing that they should move on to something else that suits their play style or skill better, If I'm bad at a game I just don't improve I simply stop playing. I don't go on the forums or social media whining to the Devs that their game is broken and unbalanced.
I'd be the first to agree that Devs look at the numbers they know what is really unbalanced and what isn't. That's the science in it, not just someones opinion that can't accept the fact that they are not playing very well or plain suck at what they are trying to do. Or even trying to take on content much higher than what they are meant to be doing, sometimes the player is to blame for being dumb and lazy.
Originally posted by Viper482 Just got an email from these guys with this in the subject line, yes I was interested enough in the game to sign up for the newsletter. Might be done with that though.If you come into the game and immediately seek out a bunch of situations where you're going to be weak and then you get killed over and over and over again, that doesn't mean the game is unbalanced. It means that you're a bad player and you need to get better. J. Todd Coleman, Creative DirectorNot saying what they are saying is not true, but it is typical elitist speak in pvp games. It is never the game balance, it is you are just a bad player. Sometimes it is true, but many times it is just elitists being elitist. I expect this kind of talk from elitist players, I do not expect it from developers. If the people making it have this attitude just imagine the type of population it is going to attract.
Tactless and in very poor taste IMO. I also received this e-mail and while I consider myself a solid middle of the road PvPer I am by no means an elitist nor do I suffer their BS for long. I can appreciate people with skills and that are cool enough (read: humble) to ensure everyone is having fun. I would prefer to have a spirited as close to equal match as can be had, as opposed to a complete blow out where one side dominates the other.
More to the point, I was a supporter of this game and was considering makeing a decent financial contribution. As it stands, I will keep my money (probably not, Star Citizen and The Repopulation look like solid investment at this time) and I will be erasing this game from my radar.
The silver lining is; Thank you for warning me early about the type of community you wish to attract. Good luck with your niche game, and I hope the unemployment line isn't too long.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
Originally posted by DMKanoDid I say they were more than people?Did I say that whatever devs say is immutable? Ehm - YOU are saying these things - not me, this is your own conjecture You sound jelly
No, you are saying these things since it is you who is using an authority in an attempt to provide backing to your unsupported claims.
Even though I don't agree with the message or delivery, I do think the message is right on par with their player base. PvP communities tent to be toxic, demanding, and very critical when it comes to class balance. Most do not like to lose to another player in PvP and when they do it can never be because of their lack of skill or ability, so their failure must be due to a lack of balance or something else. And they are never shy to come to the game's forums, and other forums, and slander the game and its Developers, screaming from here to high heaven about how jacked-up the game is. These Devs were probably tired of hearing it and drafted the email out of frustration. Many of us on this thread are of a different mindset so we see the obvious wrong but sometimes the source needs to be taken into consideration. I think most of us would agree that most PvPers need more of this type of "elitist" straight talk. Fighting fire with fire is often times the best solution.
All the scrub carebears crawling out of the woodwork in droves.
If you take offense to this, you're the bad player he is referring to. You make team games less fun, unless you're on the other side. Go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure, if it isn't too challenging for you.
All the scrub carebears crawling out of the woodwork in droves.
If you take offense to this, you're the bad player he is referring to. You make team games less fun, unless you're on the other side. Go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure, if it isn't too challenging for you.
/flameon
If this is your attitude in-game, I don't think it's others making a game "less fun". In my day the real scrubs were those who freaked out over losing, as well as those without the fortitude or patience to bring new players up to speed.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Well some players here in this post as given the answer to the OP already regarding the message. " They are not building a game where everyone is balance against every class or situation in the game".
You see this is not a themepark mmorpg where you can solo everything because each class is designed to have its own role.
I suggest you guys go read there website and take a look more the following section in the menu at the top where it says ABOUT THE GAME.
Read that page carefully it explains everything and even have some vids for those really interested in it.
It is a very different type of mmorpg because in this one the rpg part of the game only gives you well the rp part but every gain is done in the pvp part of it. So yes they included the rpg part in it but to let people RP only.
Yes your read that right, the RPG section of the game is to RP only. You gain no advantage in it. No resources for crafting, etc.
Everything is about PVP from start to finish and each Campaigns will last 1 to 3 months. So no you don't win anything before that is done and finish.
I think you are mistaking elitism for common sense. This doesnt scream elitist in the slightest to me. Basically, its saying if you behave like you have a low IQ dont complain about the game b/c its not the games fought you lack a basic intelligence, and I couldnt agree more.
For example:
I've been playing a lot of LoL lately and people will feed 4+ kills in lane and still think they can safely 1v1 the person that has been annihilating them all game. Its not because they are OP, its because you are quite simply stupid.
Nice change of pace tbh i Rather the devs be like if u cant beat somthing improve urself/skills instead of, O its to hard for you lets nerf it so the worst players can win. Then its become so dam easy to the point its a walk in the park and brings no interest to the players and no need to better your abilities.
Unfortunately the comment comes off poorly without context. Watch the first 3 min of that video (where the quote is from) and it should make a lot more sense without any of the elitism baggage.
Simply saying that they are creating classes-roles-characters that will have pros/cons. If you pick something weak at X and complain that you suck at X, that's on you. They aren't going for Rock Paper Scissor or cookie cutter everyone is balanced evenly setup. Some characters will be really good at certain things and really bad at others.
...
I actually thoroughly enjoyed that video, especially the part about balancing combat and classes around group play rather than 1v1. These guy really get it. However, its still a tactless statement and sadly, revealing of who they really are: elitists.
What he should have said is that "you are not playing to your classes strengths, and need to focus on those strengths or select a class that better suits your playstyle."
Great things come from those thriving to be better than those before, This is how the world progresses things dont magicaly get better and more advance it comes from those who thinks they can do something better than the previous person tbh. The word are filled with those elitist people (Not just in games) that try and do thing better than everyone else which then pushes the world forward in technological advancements and engineering feats and so on.
Kinda expect this type of talk with every game with a RPG tag on it.
Unfortunaly we have become so spoiled that the second someone enters a game he/she needs to already feel powerfull.
Not getting this elitist thing from it but as said for me it's why I loved RPG where you start of weak, make mistakes and learn to become a better player.
I wonder how they know who's playing the game. Some twelve year old playing their first MMO, or someone that's physically challenged, or someone in their later years. Do they assume players are exactly like them and so should play exactly like them?
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Comments
I don't think it's the message people are adverse to, it's the delivery. It's a standard fare PvP elitist attitude. So called "hardcore" PvP elitist will find nothing wrong with the statement because they are of like mind. That said, no one should really be surprised to hear this coming from a PvP-centric MMORPG developer. Their mindset is no different than that of the average OWPvP gamer. What can you say about game developers that continue to develop "non-consensual" OWPvP MMORPGs despite their long history of failures. They can't help it and know no better. Its in the DNA.
Well i should mention that the term "Balance" is often misused.
What does balance mean?Do you really want each class and build to have 100% identical numbers?So you hit with any weapon and it always hits the same?Every healing mechanic returns identical healing numbers?The combat and game would big time suck.
The way a game SHOULD work is paper/rock/scissors when comes to pvp especially.That is called active and reactive combat,for each situation you should have a reaction move.Now in saying that i have yet to see ANY developer aside from FFXI give this at least an attempt.
You need a lot of properties in a game and skills to pull off good pvp and that is just a start.Then you need solid VARIOUS weapon choices and maps designed to support pvp.Example a fire suit defends well against water based attacks or armor works good versus some melee attacks but not against magic etc etc.Again this all takes a lot f owork and design,a game should never feel like it was half assed done.
I seriously don't know why anyone would get involved with a pvp rpg,it will NEVER be done better than half ass and i mean NEVER any dev tells you otherwise they are feeding you a load of crap.I was playing online pvp likely before most developers even knew what it was and how it worked and did not work.
Show me ONE rpg pvp game that makes maps designed for it?Then ask yourself are those maps actually any good?
Just scratching the surface,you should have splash type damage,single target damage,guessing damage "if a dev doesn't know what that means,they should quit designing games immediately.Team work ideas like perhaps one player lays down some oil while another ignites it etc etc,many ideas can stem from that idea.
What is a total joke in these games is automated healing,example a player does some somersault that auto heals everyone nearby,retarded gimmicks like that turn me off.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Well they're the ones that did it lol. It was a single quote feature at the top of their email, and the subject of the email was the same as the one in this thread. If it was taken out of context they did it to themselves.
See my last post, I was not doing that. Thank you for accusing though. It is their own fault, they sent the email as that, no video or context included. It was a random quote.
Not necessarily, unless the dev is just regurgitating content that's been done before in other games. However, if a developer creates something that plays differently and functions differently than how players are normally used to, it makes sense for the devs to explain how and why it is different.
An example of that is ships in EVE Online. Someone coming from the standard fare of EQ/WOW style games will get a ship to love and cherish and hold forever, only to be devastated once it is blown to smithereens. Would you suggest making the ships of EVE permanent? Of course not, as that breaks a big portion of the core gameplay. Isn't it a more reasonable solution to explain to the player how the ships of EVE function, why they are different, and how to best use them?
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
There's absolutely nothing remotely elitist or even PvP-specific about that comment. It's just common sense that the point of having classes is to not have them be the same. So a class will be better in some situations and worse than others. Just like in any other game with classes.
Sounds like the devs took their own quote out of context for drama value.
Just PR hype speak not unlike what Wildstar was going for with their spin.
The reality is that Crowfall is a F2P game: they want you no matter what and are trying to appeal to your ego since very few people consider themselves "bad."
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Honesty is a sign of respect. What I mean by that is, most devs don't give players respect enough to be honest with them. Which often backfires at some point. As people aren't as dumb as they think.
Here is a dev being brutally honest, that's rare.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That is a really really good point. There is no such thing as a niche F2P game, the model doesn't support it. The foundation for a F2P game is millions of players all buying 5 dollar hats and XP pots.
I have to disagree with you. There is way too much hand holding in gaming these days. You should be willing and required to learn how to play your chosen class and pick a class that suits your strengths. Yes perhaps you might suck at it at first, but once you master it the rewards will be yourself being better at it than most if not all players. And being a useful member to your team, plus the personal achievement of becoming good at something you was bad at for a while.
It shouldn't be tuned for you to just jump in and be a master straight away, I'm so bored of how easy and cookie cutter classes are becoming in mmo's. Everything is designed to be dumbed down and balanced against everything in the entire game. It's a boring way of doing things. Whats wrong with challenging people to learn and get good at something instead of just giving them a nice easy experience boring out the gate?
The amount of people complaining about balance for every game these days is normally 9 times outta 10 because they aren't very good and there is nothing wrong with the game design/mechanics. This isn't a bad thing but they should learn and practice to get better the game shouldn't be changed to suit them it should be as the Devs intended and hopefully that will be a challenging experience with a sense of achievement at the end of it all.
Failing that they should move on to something else that suits their play style or skill better, If I'm bad at a game I just don't improve I simply stop playing. I don't go on the forums or social media whining to the Devs that their game is broken and unbalanced.
I'd be the first to agree that Devs look at the numbers they know what is really unbalanced and what isn't. That's the science in it, not just someones opinion that can't accept the fact that they are not playing very well or plain suck at what they are trying to do. Or even trying to take on content much higher than what they are meant to be doing, sometimes the player is to blame for being dumb and lazy.
Tactless and in very poor taste IMO. I also received this e-mail and while I consider myself a solid middle of the road PvPer I am by no means an elitist nor do I suffer their BS for long. I can appreciate people with skills and that are cool enough (read: humble) to ensure everyone is having fun. I would prefer to have a spirited as close to equal match as can be had, as opposed to a complete blow out where one side dominates the other.
More to the point, I was a supporter of this game and was considering makeing a decent financial contribution. As it stands, I will keep my money (probably not, Star Citizen and The Repopulation look like solid investment at this time) and I will be erasing this game from my radar.
The silver lining is; Thank you for warning me early about the type of community you wish to attract. Good luck with your niche game, and I hope the unemployment line isn't too long.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
it's not elitism, it's just that you are probably a carebear and can't accept to hear from someone else that you are bad.
i don't see why every player should have access to 100% of a game's content if they do not offer the slightest amount of effort.
You can, for sure believe anything that flies your boat, however that does not make one right...
No, you are saying these things since it is you who is using an authority in an attempt to provide backing to your unsupported claims.
Yeah nothing elitist here at all...
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Even though I don't agree with the message or delivery, I do think the message is right on par with their player base. PvP communities tent to be toxic, demanding, and very critical when it comes to class balance. Most do not like to lose to another player in PvP and when they do it can never be because of their lack of skill or ability, so their failure must be due to a lack of balance or something else. And they are never shy to come to the game's forums, and other forums, and slander the game and its Developers, screaming from here to high heaven about how jacked-up the game is. These Devs were probably tired of hearing it and drafted the email out of frustration. Many of us on this thread are of a different mindset so we see the obvious wrong but sometimes the source needs to be taken into consideration. I think most of us would agree that most PvPers need more of this type of "elitist" straight talk. Fighting fire with fire is often times the best solution.
All the scrub carebears crawling out of the woodwork in droves.
If you take offense to this, you're the bad player he is referring to. You make team games less fun, unless you're on the other side. Go play Hello Kitty Island Adventure, if it isn't too challenging for you.
/flameon
If this is your attitude in-game, I don't think it's others making a game "less fun". In my day the real scrubs were those who freaked out over losing, as well as those without the fortitude or patience to bring new players up to speed.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
A good example of the appeal to authority logical fallacy.
"Authorities" can be, and are often wrong.
I can think of few places where this is more frequently the case than gaming.
Well some players here in this post as given the answer to the OP already regarding the message. " They are not building a game where everyone is balance against every class or situation in the game".
You see this is not a themepark mmorpg where you can solo everything because each class is designed to have its own role.
I suggest you guys go read there website and take a look more the following section in the menu at the top where it says ABOUT THE GAME.
Read that page carefully it explains everything and even have some vids for those really interested in it.
It is a very different type of mmorpg because in this one the rpg part of the game only gives you well the rp part but every gain is done in the pvp part of it. So yes they included the rpg part in it but to let people RP only.
Yes your read that right, the RPG section of the game is to RP only. You gain no advantage in it. No resources for crafting, etc.
Everything is about PVP from start to finish and each Campaigns will last 1 to 3 months. So no you don't win anything before that is done and finish.
Link : http://crowfall.com/#/about-the-game
I think you are mistaking elitism for common sense. This doesnt scream elitist in the slightest to me. Basically, its saying if you behave like you have a low IQ dont complain about the game b/c its not the games fought you lack a basic intelligence, and I couldnt agree more.
For example:
I've been playing a lot of LoL lately and people will feed 4+ kills in lane and still think they can safely 1v1 the person that has been annihilating them all game. Its not because they are OP, its because you are quite simply stupid.
Great things come from those thriving to be better than those before, This is how the world progresses things dont magicaly get better and more advance it comes from those who thinks they can do something better than the previous person tbh. The word are filled with those elitist people (Not just in games) that try and do thing better than everyone else which then pushes the world forward in technological advancements and engineering feats and so on.
Kinda expect this type of talk with every game with a RPG tag on it.
Unfortunaly we have become so spoiled that the second someone enters a game he/she needs to already feel powerfull.
Not getting this elitist thing from it but as said for me it's why I loved RPG where you start of weak, make mistakes and learn to become a better player.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey