Now that I have said that, I feel I need to be clear on something, One of my biggest criticisms of GW2 was around their "innovation" Their motivation was all wrong. They were to focused on creating a game that should have been called "NOTWoW Online"
I'll pick a few from the list.
Events? What was one of the biggest complaints about GW2? As I recall People really weren't embracing the whole concept of the personal story. But that's the trade off for Dynamic Events. What they couldn't do in the open world, they did with the PS.
The No Trinity? For as much as they made it work, they broke it too. Again, the system brought as much wrong with it as it did right...A Trade Off
Weapon Skills? That wasn't really innovation To be fair, Anarchy Online had equipped weapon based skills back in 2001.
Personal nodes? Yeah, the supply was overwhelming and demand went to shit so it became pointless to gather. WTF when you could buy it from the TP for little more than vendor trash.
I'll stop there, but IMO, for many new things that GW2 brought to the table, they lost something valuable from it.
I also want to be fair about the game.....meaning, I still want to and am leaning towards buying the expansion. I think it would at least leave me feeling I got my money's worth.
It is all we need for it to be called innovative.
Most fantasy games follow the WoW model and WoW is itself a much more polished and friendly EQ.
Events works and keep the zones alive. PS problems have nothing to do with events. The HoT personal story and Living Story season 2 have been quite good.
PS problems are too many meaningless choices that dilute the story by each race and choice and cute scenes where 2 characters were standing looking at each other.
One of the few games with no trinity and if wasn't for bugs/exploits (like skipping, line casting, AI bugging) the build would be much more varied. But that is why people complain how HoT is hard while running glass cannons.
Weapon skills with action combat/tab hybrid. Again naming a dozen games to cover all GW2 feature set proves GW2 is innovative as it is incorporating all those features.
You haven't checked the trading post have you? What materials can you gather that you can buy for barely vendor price?
GW2 was as influenced by WoW as every other theme park out there...Maybe even moreso. To the point where it hurt the game as much as it helped. You want to call it innovative, that's fine, I won't argue. They did do things differently. But in this case, different doesn't mean better. They did away with the Trinity. But for everything good that did, it brought as many problems. Was it overall better than trinity games? I enjoyed GW2 combat, but I wouldn't say it improved on anything. And watching the topic here over the years, there were as many complaints about GW2's implementation of no trinity as there were people praising it. That's what I mean. It's a trade off. It's different but not better. It went down a different path, but that path did not really advance the genre. And that's where I would draw my line in the sand on "innovation" Different and better=innovation. Same but better=innovation. Different but not better =/= innovation. Same but not better =/= innovation. It's all highly subjective for sure. But call it what you will. GW2's differences weren't all that much better than it's predecessors, just different.
I know that sounds all down on the game. I don't want to come across like it wasn't good. IT was. I just think they allowed too much "agenda" to get in the way of better design.
OP, bottom line... if you like GW2 then you most likely will like the expansion and feel it is worth it.
If you really don't care for GW2 then the expansion will not help.
again...no
this is NOTHING like the core game
this is a hardcore version of silverwastes
its a bloody trainwreck, and the devs are panicking
It is a much improved version of silverwastes, one of the most popular GW2 maps.
Last time I saw the core gaming has leveling, you don't start with all skills and traits. The mastery system is an account wide leveling system with the Hero points acting as a character based leveling.
by that analogy, the graveyard should be the best place ever, because most of us end up there
i only suffered through silverwastes, because the alternatives was worse:
do even harder content OR leave the game
oddly enough, they give away the best part , the core game would be worth a lot more ,
GW2 was as influenced by WoW as every other theme park out there...Maybe even moreso. To the point where it hurt the game as much as it helped. You want to call it innovative, that's fine, I won't argue. They did do things differently. But in this case, different doesn't mean better. They did away with the Trinity. But for everything good that did, it brought as many problems. Was it overall better than trinity games? I enjoyed GW2 combat, but I wouldn't say it improved on anything. And watching the topic here over the years, there were as many complaints about GW2's implementation of no trinity as there were people praising it. That's what I mean. It's a trade off. It's different but not better. It went down a different path, but that path did not really advance the genre. And that's where I would draw my line in the sand on "innovation" Different and better=innovation. Same but better=innovation. Different but not better =/= innovation. Same but not better =/= innovation. It's all highly subjective for sure. But call it what you will. GW2's differences weren't all that much better than it's predecessors, just different.
You know there was another game by Arenanet released not long after WoW called GW1 where they had no holy trinity, although they had a healer.
It is not a trade off. It is different. For me movement based combat is better. Downscalling is better. Dynamic events are superior to quests. Cosmetic progression is superior to stat based progression. Again for me.
Innovation is not about being better, it is about doing something different. GW2 offered something different to other MMOs, in a beautiful and polished package and with a physics engine, something not many MMOs have.
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
You know there was another game by Arenanet released not long after WoW called GW1 where they had no holy trinity, although they had a healer.
It is not a trade off. It is different. For me movement based combat is better. Downscalling is better. Dynamic events are superior to quests. Cosmetic progression is superior to stat based progression. Again for me.
Innovation is not about being better, it is about doing something different. GW2 offered something different to other MMOs, in a beautiful and polished package and with a physics engine, something not many MMOs have.
Fine, it's innovation then. But I still think the game should have been so much better than it was. But because they let so much "innovation" get in the way of better game design, it fell short of it's potential.
You know there was another game by Arenanet released not long after WoW called GW1 where they had no holy trinity, although they had a healer.
It is not a trade off. It is different. For me movement based combat is better. Downscalling is better. Dynamic events are superior to quests. Cosmetic progression is superior to stat based progression. Again for me.
Innovation is not about being better, it is about doing something different. GW2 offered something different to other MMOs, in a beautiful and polished package and with a physics engine, something not many MMOs have.
Fine, it's innovation then. But I still think the game should have been so much better than it was. But because they let so much "innovation" get in the way of better game design, it fell short of it's potential.
Just my (worthless) opinion.
100% agree that they tried to be too different for the sake of being different. Taking on too much and falling short of most everything with the first release. They improved a bit in terms of Storytelling with Living World Season 2 and the expansion. They also made it so the mobs in the world were easier to kill by comparison to beta and the first year or so. Though they completely destroyed the latter with this expansion. So much RNG involved in deaths now, and even as heavy armor you have to hope your friends get hit and run away from so much. Thinking about leveling a daredevil if I come back, and seeing if I can get +50% endurance recharge with the additional dodge they give and go pure ranged to see if it helps. Perhaps when Glint and Druid are more common things will be better, as well. With the flat 33% damage reduction for all allies in the area and the druid's massive heals.
To me, the leveling is the most tedious I've ever felt in an MMO. It was barely fun exploring maps and getting frustrated by reaching places every couple minutes (for vistas and special locations) the first 80 that I got. New areas were nice to explore, but some seemed to repeat in looks to make them a tad more boring. I just can't bring myself to level anymore characters without PvPing and using the books. Honestly think they should've made max level 20 again, like in the first one. Or sell level 80s. Putting in transmutation stones as rewards only helped so much before you just want to bang your head on the desk.
It's leveling based on RNG (events popping) and aggrovating jumping puzzles and the same tasks over and over again with hearts, that have no real story or connectivity to them. Just some text on the right side. The worst of this is felt during this expansion when people want to level new classes, but end up quitting by level 20 simply because of the tedium. No real ability to power level, and even PvP takes a week or two of hardcore grinding to get enough tomes and karma trains.
The core game was bad enough with it's Berserker meta due to no trinity. The zerg method years before that. Then stacking and just letting yourself auto attack and pressing a cooldown here and there without movement.
I typically play games for the leveling experience and have 15+ max toons on any MMO I stick with. But in this one, the leveling is worse than the end game. And the end game was just logging in for ascended accessories, getting some agony resistance, and trying to look good. Which was negated by them selling outfits -- of which I am a fan of in the original and was happy to see them in here. The few beautiful locations it has just don't make up for the leveling process, to me.
Though is is pretty much all in regards to the original game release. It's negated with the expansion, since it doesn't increase the level gap. Granted, masteries are pretty much the same thing... though by then you may have your specialization unlocked among other things -- and it's account wide. Which was a good move to make.
Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing). German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century. Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now). I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things). In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while. If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.
Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this. If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own. Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis. Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
Anyway, I really don't want to digress into the innovations of GW2. I want to keep this a discussion relative to people wanting to know if they should purchase the expansion or not.
Anyway, I really don't want to digress into the innovations of GW2. I want to keep this a discussion relative to people wanting to know if they should purchase the expansion or not.
And yes, I know, I went there too.
You had a problem with the game before you will have a problem with it now. Based off many of your response and comments you are looking for an excuse not to buy it. We get it! You are not happy with the options in the MMO market, please just find something that makes you happy [mod edit]
I have to be honest, I have never played an mmorpg let alone GW2 . . . i hop onto many forums of all sorts of ilk and just enjoy flaming the fires so to speak.
Last week I instigated a huge fight on some cooking forum about the proper way to carmelize onions for French Onion Soup . . . I had no clue what I was talking about but was still able to cause quite the ruckus!
I will go ahead and try out Gears of War 2 since everyone here seems to either love or hate it. Then Ill come back to these forums and post about who had the best curveball in baseball. Go Cubs!
I think they didn't anticipate how many people didn't have hero points stacked up. I unlocked almost all the elite specs as soon as I logged in because I had been saving up the points. For new people or those that didn't save up it was definitely a long process and I doubt I would have been happy having to do it when the new specs are one of the main selling points for the expansion.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
let's just say when it comes to story it is definitely worth it i think. i just got spoiled and really enjoyed what i read lol. then again you can say the same thing for Knights of the Fallen Empire and you can just watch both stories on youtube so there has to be more to make you buy.
the future of both games (when it comes to getting big budget content) rely on the sales of their new expansions and SWTOR team have other chances whenever a new Star Wars movie comes out.
edit: kept reading GW2 spoilers further and checked it on youtube now i am less interested to pay to experience it cause personal preferences. goddamnit why lol. epic but unnecessary sigh. it's like they know they probably won't get another chance to go all out on the story.
Post edited by Gretelda on
my top MMOs: UO,DAOC,WoW,GW2
most of my posts are just my opinions they are not facts,it is the same for you too.
I agree with this. There are many sties including metacritic giving a more precise barometer of public reaction to the expansion . . . it's not good.
Hmm. So now that metacritic is 7.6 with 455 8+ ratings to 140 4< ratings is the expansion good? Or is it only a precise barometer when the haters sneak in while the fans are busy playing the game?
Currently playing: GW2 Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
If you liked GW2 and got a char to 80 but kinda felt like there was nothing else left to do except collect skins I highly suggest the expansion if you're looking for some more difficult content. The mastery system (rep grind) is pretty nice because it makes doing events at 80 meaningful and rewarding again.
If you weren't captured by GW2 then I don't think this will convince you otherwise because it is simply an improved version of dynamic events. They are streamlined, obvious, group based and they feel like the entire map is working towards an objective.
If you're looking for a wow like raid group endgame you might want to hold off until they actually release those.
The feeling when a map works together is quite rewarding and can be frustrating because inevitably people don't listen but that comes with MMO territory.
If you think repeating 4 different maps worth of events is grinding then that is your opinion. However I never feel like I am never locked to a single area because everything counts towards masteries.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
I agree with this. There are many sties including metacritic giving a more precise barometer of public reaction to the expansion . . . it's not good.
Hmm. So now that metacritic is 7.6 with 455 8+ ratings to 140 4< ratings is the expansion good? Or is it only a precise barometer when the haters sneak in while the fans are busy playing the game?
I agree with this. There are many sties including metacritic giving a more precise barometer of public reaction to the expansion . . . it's not good.
Hmm. So now that metacritic is 7.6 with 455 8+ ratings to 140 4< ratings is the expansion good? Or is it only a precise barometer when the haters sneak in while the fans are busy playing the game?
thats 0.2 over the core game
if it was that good , they wouldnt change anything so soon
if it was that good, everybody would be shouting it from the rooftops
I am seeing one consistent theme. If you liked GW2, then you'll like HoT. If you didn't like Gw2, then HoT probably won't change that.
Is that a fair assessment?
HoT is very different from the core GW2 world. Raids are coming in about a week and raids are very different from dungeons and fractals. I would say that HoT takes what is good about GW2 and adds more really good stuff, and they are adding raids which is for people who want very challenging content.
I am seeing one consistent theme. If you liked GW2, then you'll like HoT. If you didn't like Gw2, then HoT probably won't change that.
Is that a fair assessment?
It seems fair to me. Of course I would say that is true for every single mmo I play. I can't think of an exception offhand.
yup seems fair, Anet have clearly listened to a lot of feedback, and you can see glimpses of gw1 design ethos starting to come through, but if you didn't like GW2 to start then the game has not changed that much.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Comments
I know that sounds all down on the game. I don't want to come across like it wasn't good. IT was. I just think they allowed too much "agenda" to get in the way of better design.
by that analogy, the graveyard should be the best place ever, because most of us end up there
i only suffered through silverwastes, because the alternatives was worse:
do even harder content OR leave the game
oddly enough, they give away the best part , the core game would be worth a lot more ,
than this (product)
It is not a trade off. It is different.
For me movement based combat is better. Downscalling is better. Dynamic events are superior to quests. Cosmetic progression is superior to stat based progression.
Again for me.
Innovation is not about being better, it is about doing something different.
GW2 offered something different to other MMOs, in a beautiful and polished package and with a physics engine, something not many MMOs have.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
But I still think the game should have been so much better than it was. But because they let so much "innovation" get in the way of better game design, it fell short of it's potential.
Just my (worthless) opinion.
100% agree that they tried to be too different for the sake of being different. Taking on too much and falling short of most everything with the first release. They improved a bit in terms of Storytelling with Living World Season 2 and the expansion. They also made it so the mobs in the world were easier to kill by comparison to beta and the first year or so. Though they completely destroyed the latter with this expansion. So much RNG involved in deaths now, and even as heavy armor you have to hope your friends get hit and run away from so much. Thinking about leveling a daredevil if I come back, and seeing if I can get +50% endurance recharge with the additional dodge they give and go pure ranged to see if it helps. Perhaps when Glint and Druid are more common things will be better, as well. With the flat 33% damage reduction for all allies in the area and the druid's massive heals.
To me, the leveling is the most tedious I've ever felt in an MMO. It was barely fun exploring maps and getting frustrated by reaching places every couple minutes (for vistas and special locations) the first 80 that I got. New areas were nice to explore, but some seemed to repeat in looks to make them a tad more boring. I just can't bring myself to level anymore characters without PvPing and using the books. Honestly think they should've made max level 20 again, like in the first one. Or sell level 80s. Putting in transmutation stones as rewards only helped so much before you just want to bang your head on the desk.
It's leveling based on RNG (events popping) and aggrovating jumping puzzles and the same tasks over and over again with hearts, that have no real story or connectivity to them. Just some text on the right side. The worst of this is felt during this expansion when people want to level new classes, but end up quitting by level 20 simply because of the tedium. No real ability to power level, and even PvP takes a week or two of hardcore grinding to get enough tomes and karma trains.
The core game was bad enough with it's Berserker meta due to no trinity. The zerg method years before that. Then stacking and just letting yourself auto attack and pressing a cooldown here and there without movement.
I typically play games for the leveling experience and have 15+ max toons on any MMO I stick with. But in this one, the leveling is worse than the end game. And the end game was just logging in for ascended accessories, getting some agony resistance, and trying to look good. Which was negated by them selling outfits -- of which I am a fan of in the original and was happy to see them in here. The few beautiful locations it has just don't make up for the leveling process, to me.
Though is is pretty much all in regards to the original game release. It's negated with the expansion, since it doesn't increase the level gap. Granted, masteries are pretty much the same thing... though by then you may have your specialization unlocked among other things -- and it's account wide. Which was a good move to make.
And yes, I know, I went there too.
GW2 is not for everybody.
Last week I instigated a huge fight on some cooking forum about the proper way to carmelize onions for French Onion Soup . . . I had no clue what I was talking about but was still able to cause quite the ruckus!
I will go ahead and try out Gears of War 2 since everyone here seems to either love or hate it. Then Ill come back to these forums and post about who had the best curveball in baseball. Go Cubs!
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/473/view/news/read/36879/Guild-Wars-2-We-Hear-You-Changes-to-Elite-Spec-Unlocks-Adventures.html
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
I think they didn't anticipate how many people didn't have hero points stacked up. I unlocked almost all the elite specs as soon as I logged in because I had been saving up the points. For new people or those that didn't save up it was definitely a long process and I doubt I would have been happy having to do it when the new specs are one of the main selling points for the expansion.
the future of both games (when it comes to getting big budget content) rely on the sales of their new expansions and SWTOR team have other chances whenever a new Star Wars movie comes out.
edit: kept reading GW2 spoilers further and checked it on youtube now i am less interested to pay to experience it cause personal preferences. goddamnit why lol. epic but unnecessary sigh. it's like they know they probably won't get another chance to go all out on the story.
my top MMOs: UO,DAOC,WoW,GW2
most of my posts are just my opinions they are not facts,it is the same for you too.
So now that metacritic is 7.6 with 455 8+ ratings to 140 4< ratings is the expansion good?
Or is it only a precise barometer when the haters sneak in while the fans are busy playing the game?
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
If you weren't captured by GW2 then I don't think this will convince you otherwise because it is simply an improved version of dynamic events. They are streamlined, obvious, group based and they feel like the entire map is working towards an objective.
If you're looking for a wow like raid group endgame you might want to hold off until they actually release those.
The feeling when a map works together is quite rewarding and can be frustrating because inevitably people don't listen but that comes with MMO territory.
If you think repeating 4 different maps worth of events is grinding then that is your opinion. However I never feel like I am never locked to a single area because everything counts towards masteries.
Play for fun. Play to win. Play for perfection. Play with friends. Play in another world. Why do you play?
I bought mine cheap here
thats 0.2 over the core game
if it was that good , they wouldnt change anything so soon
if it was that good, everybody would be shouting it from the rooftops
AFAIK WOTLK got 7.6
something smells fishy
Go figure.
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
If you liked GW2, then you'll like HoT. If you didn't like Gw2, then HoT probably won't change that.
Is that a fair assessment?
no, HoT was aimed for the hardcore crowd
the core game wasnt
that is why theyre panicking , they dont know, what foot to stand on anymore
many casuals have already left, so they might as well give it to the hardcores now
Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders
yup seems fair, Anet have clearly listened to a lot of feedback, and you can see glimpses of gw1 design ethos starting to come through, but if you didn't like GW2 to start then the game has not changed that much.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D