You see, I wouldn't even call EVE a sandbox. You are limited by how you play it i.e. you can't land on a planet in the game, you can't fly your ship around in space (it flies for you), you can't walk around in pubic areas and do things with other characters - it's very constrained.
And there's no ketchup. Then again, I can't do a barbecue anyway in EVE. And the livestock? Can't make burgers.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
You see, I wouldn't even call EVE a sandbox. You are limited by how you play it i.e. you can't land on a planet in the game, you can't fly your ship around in space (it flies for you), you can't walk around in pubic areas and do things with other characters - it's very constrained.
And there's no ketchup. Then again, I can't do a barbecue anyway in EVE. And the livestock? Can't make burgers.
LMAO.
Well done.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
It's because no one has managed to make an EvE Online type of sandbox on the ground, yet.. EvE is the only one with a real market and complex geopolitical gameplay along side of your standard mmo grind type gameplay that has succeeded for many many many years. But eh.. space ships arent everyone's cup of tea. Mmo's need to stop making worlds with a single market (auction house), for example..
You see, I wouldn't even call EVE a sandbox. You are limited by how you play it i.e. you can't land on a planet in the game, you can't fly your ship around in space (it flies for you), you can't walk around in pubic areas and do things with other characters - it's very constrained. Even taking over areas of space and erecting stations or outposts etc is no different that in a themepark pvp game of capture the flag; it's just played out on a bigger scale. In a true sandbox, you would not be constrained to the ships you are, the fittings you are and the issues that are in the game. The pve is scripted too, so I don't get why people call it a sandbox, when it isn't. It may be the closest to the sandbox dream, but it's not.
People will try to argue that you can effect the universal economy in EVE so that makes it a sandbox. Well you can affect the prices in WoW by what you sell on the Auction House.
List a few of these sandbox games and let us see if we are free to do everything we want.
For example, in any of them, I can do actions that were not allowed by the programmers?
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I've joined this late, but I often wonder if it's impossible to create a true sandbox because of the limitation of programming i.e. in a true sandbox, you would be able ot do anything, otherwise people will call it a themepark - but how can a programmer legislate for a character doing anything? You will never get to the utopian sandbox as that is essentially real life - so why play a game to mirror real life?
I just can't see the thing that people strive for ever being created i.e. make your own rules type of thing. If people don't want it to that extreme, then what exactly do they want so that they can play in a sandbox?
Opinions vary, so it's tough to pinpoint what exactly is "sandbox enough". I'll compare Darkfall Online and Archeage. Darkfall Online was claimed to be a sandbox where you could do anything, be anything you wanted ... within the limits of the game. Archeage had some good things going for it, but plenty not.
The problem with Darkfall (in regards to it's sandbox description) was there was little sand, and too few tools. I mean, you could choose how your character progressed and which skills you wanted to use, even (and more often than not) all of them. You could own a house, but were limited to a few styles and very few, predetermined locations. You could craft any item in game - the only limit being the racial badass weapons. You could use any item in game, even noobs could use the most powerful weapons and armor (awesome). You were able to join clans made of any faction. That pretty much sums up the sandbox stuff you could do with tools provided. You could make your destiny as a trader, but there were no tools in place at all to help. You could be a merc, but there were no tools involved to help. Pretty much anything but what I wrote above might be doable, but you'll be making up all of it and if the other players didn't "play along" you were out of luck.
Archeage had a lot of themepark, right? You had levels, quests, etc. But only ran quests for levels until level 30, after that the rest was from crafting, farming, etc. I was able to level my character w/o doing quests. that IMO is a good "sandbox type" feature for a themepark game. The housing was done VERY well, you were limited to style or type, but the land plot locations were much larger and more plentiful than that of DF. not to mention how and where you placed the houses within the plot areas had a much more "sandbox" feel to it. The skill system was more limited than Darkfall, but had options as you leveled your character. Having choices that impact your character are some of what sandbox is. You could be a crafter, trader (I traded property ... and stole it). There were more I'm sure. You couldn't twink out a new character, items were level bound (completely non sandbox). There were basically level restricted zones. I feel that a sandbox needs to be more open where a new player can find some way to survive in any zone, and old players can go to "newbie" zones and still utilize it.
Both of these games were very much sandbox, but limited in too many ways to be considered complete IMO.
TLDR: I would have loved to combine Darkfall skills, item usage with the sandbox elements of Archeage. That would be pretty epic for me.
Player: Give me a sandbox Game: Ok, go do whatever you want Player: I'm bored, there is nothing to do Game: Uhhh, you can do whatever you want, go kill people, build, fish, dig, mine, chop down trees, kill zombies, farm, craft, hunt Player: Ehh, no thanks, can you give me stuff to do, im too lazy to do that stuff Game: This is a sandbox, that is a themepark MMO Player: Can you like make me go kill some foxes for gold? Game: No, go do whatever you want Player: That is boring, Im sitting in a chair and I don't want to do shit Game: Ummmmm Player: These sandboxes that you can do anything are shit. Can't you at least get some NPC's with yellow question marks above their heads? Game: No Player: Why are you trying something new, this is horrible. Fuck off.
People that bitch about Sandboxes NEED something to do. Some people need to have the supervision and routine of a 9-5 job, some people work their ass off from home and are good at it. Its not the job, its the people performing it.
The OP needs structure and thats fine, plenty of it out there.
And you might be confused by some games "claiming" sandbox. ie Archeage, etc.
I don't get how MMO's are in a worse position now than say 2005. You can play for free. That's correct, want to play a Star Wars MMO, its free. Some PvP, try Gw2 its fifty bucks. W* toony, free. Aion free. Tera free. Archeage free. EsO B2p. LOTR not sure, never played but im guessing almost free. Rift free.
WTF. A 2008 MMO would cost you 60 plus 15/mo. Every one. Shittier graphics, no control over anything, bugs, and about 1/100th the options.
People bitching about MMOs now will never be satisfied. What the fuck do you want?
Seriiously, what do you want out of an MMO? Everyone bitching about the genre, there are soooo many options for different playstyles that cost you jack shit. This mentality goes right along with participation rewards and political correctness and all pussification of the US. Grow up and go find something good, quit being a bitch, there is a game for you.
I don't get how MMO's are in a worse position now than say 2005. You can play for free. That's correct, want to play a Star Wars MMO, its free. Some PvP, try Gw2 its fifty bucks. W* toony, free. Aion free. Tera free. Archeage free. EsO B2p. LOTR not sure, never played but im guessing almost free. Rift free.
WTF. A 2008 MMO would cost you 60 plus 15/mo. Every one. Shittier graphics, no control over anything, bugs, and about 1/100th the options.
People bitching about MMOs now will never be satisfied. What the fuck do you want?
Seriiously, what do you want out of an MMO? Everyone bitching about the genre, there are soooo many options for different playstyles that cost you jack shit. This mentality goes right along with participation rewards and political correctness and all pussification of the US. Grow up and go find something good, quit being a bitch, there is a game for you.
A 2002 MMO cost you $15-$30 a month but you had 100 times the options when it came to gameplay.
I don't get how MMO's are in a worse position now than say 2005. You can play for free. That's correct, want to play a Star Wars MMO, its free. Some PvP, try Gw2 its fifty bucks. W* toony, free. Aion free. Tera free. Archeage free. EsO B2p. LOTR not sure, never played but im guessing almost free. Rift free.
WTF. A 2008 MMO would cost you 60 plus 15/mo. Every one. Shittier graphics, no control over anything, bugs, and about 1/100th the options.
People bitching about MMOs now will never be satisfied. What the fuck do you want?
Seriiously, what do you want out of an MMO? Everyone bitching about the genre, there are soooo many options for different playstyles that cost you jack shit. This mentality goes right along with participation rewards and political correctness and all pussification of the US. Grow up and go find something good, quit being a bitch, there is a game for you.
A 2002 MMO cost you $15-$30 a month but you had 100 times the options when it came to gameplay.
Maybe it's just me, but for the right game, I'd pay $100 a month if the game gave me everything I wanted from it. Ok, will never exist, but my point is that I'm willing to pay more for more and if the devs put effort into a game and charged for it, as opposed to making it free and not charging for it, I'll take the paid option because I'm happy to pay to be entertained. Right now, no MMO is making me run to my computer to log-in. Some are ok, but most are regurgitated from ideas 10 years ago. Must be one of the few industries where innovation is stagnant.
Most sandbox games fail because they simply aren't fun. Especially sandbox games with PvP. If a game is not fun without PvP, even less people will find it fun with PvP.
That is where devs creating sandbox worlds need to begin. Find a way to bring players a world they want to participate in, with enjoyable gameplay apart from the actual PvP.
Sandbox is not failing as a genre, is that nobody apart indie companies develop them because they aren't profitable since they please only a niche of the whole mmo playerbase.
Sandbox are the best online games that you can still call a true mmoRPG experience, where your choices change the world and affect other players, while AAA mmo with some pvp elements are just brawlers is a persistent an static enviroment where the only thing you do is fight monsters, get achievements, and nothing more.
Blame the players that want everything easy, without any confict, if people stop to play these wow clones i'm sure that more professional developers will try to make more sandbox like SWG or UO.
Sandbox is not failing as a genre, is that nobody apart indie companies develop them because they aren't profitable since they please only a niche of the whole mmo playerbase.
Sandbox are the best online games that you can still call a true mmoRPG experience, where your choices change the world and affect other players, while AAA mmo with some pvp elements are just brawlers is a persistent an static enviroment where the only thing you do is fight monsters, get achievements, and nothing more.
Blame the players that want everything easy, without any confict, if people stop to play these wow clones i'm sure that more professional developers will try to make more sandbox like SWG or UO.
There is far more to it than that, sandboxes as we know them today, even as far back as SWG or UO, had lackluster game-play from a PVE perspective, that means little to those like myself who did naught but PVP or others who were into using it as social simulator or were into crafting/selling. Yet to the greater populace they offered little that they want.
Hence why WOW and games like it took off in the manner they did. Sandboxes need to focus on these things as well as what they always have if they're ever going to become more than the niche they are.
As for blaming players... LOL, why blame people for playing what they prefer? That's silly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Expensive to develop games that are not part of a franchise are failing. And MMOs find it very hard to do a franchise series. TinyMMOs seem to be doing fine financially.
Expensive to develop games that are not part of a franchise are failing. And MMOs find it very hard to do a franchise series. TinyMMOs seem to be doing fine financially.
A 2002 MMO cost you $15-$30 a month but you had 100 times the options when it came to gameplay.
I'm not seeing that.
I'm a fan of many of the older MMOs, especially the ones around that time, but to suggest that EQ or DAoC had more options than Battle of Immortals, ArcheAge, RIFT, NWN, or Trove ... I'm just not seeing it.
This is especially true when you consider that you have - depending on one's criteria for "MMO" - 40-200 MMOs to choose from instead of just about a dozen or so.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Leave your house and go outside. Welcome to the biggest sandbox of them all. You can build what you want, get a job, live off the established government, farm, work in an office, build things. PvP is heavily restricted, and there are really harsh penalties involved. There is a player run economy, as well as a player run government. There are several factions to choose from.... All sorts of stuff to do.
Leave your house and go outside. Welcome to the biggest sandbox of them all. You can build what you want, get a job, live off the established government, farm, work in an office, build things. PvP is heavily restricted, and there are really harsh penalties involved. There is a player run economy, as well as a player run government. There are several factions to choose from.... All sorts of stuff to do.
EH where you been living? Try building a storage shed outside without first asking for permission and paying the taxes on it. Then it has to be x amount of feet away from the property line and all other kinds of bullcrap. Even in the real world we are very limited to what can be done. We do not play sandbox games so they can mimic real life. Because real life is pay to win.
Even in games like archeage you need licenses to build, and space is at a premium. You are limited to the cookie cutter homes, which are the equivalent of Home Owner Association floor plans. So many parallels lol
A 2002 MMO cost you $15-$30 a month but you had 100 times the options when it came to gameplay.
I'm not seeing that.
I'm a fan of many of the older MMOs, especially the ones around that time, but to suggest that EQ or DAoC had more options than Battle of Immortals, ArcheAge, RIFT, NWN, or Trove ... I'm just not seeing it.
This is especially true when you consider that you have - depending on one's criteria for "MMO" - 40-200 MMOs to choose from instead of just about a dozen or so.
Though I may have read it wrong, I believe l2avism meant that every game you played was different in substantial ways. So, changing games was changing how to play. Today we do indeed have many more titles but honestly some of them feel exactly like others with different graphics.
List a few of these sandbox games and let us see if we are free to do everything we want.
For example, in any of them, I can do actions that were not allowed by the programmers?
By that definition even real life isn't a sandbox as you can't do anything not allowed by the program (laws of physics).
"Sandbox" =/= "do anything I can think of". Admittedly people pretty much can't agree on a single definition of what a "sandbox" is, but "do actions not allowed by the programmers" is just ridiculous and/or trolling.
I did not read through the whole thread, probably it was mentioned before. There are no real AAA sandboxes out. The last AAA i remember is SWG. I had great fun in a cool roleplaying guild and it was the only game i enjoyed crafting and gathering. PvP was exciting (ohh a red dot on my map, kill!!). It was nearly perfect, except of combat and the skill system.
if you would make SWG2 it would be a success. 80% of the old game with 20% improvements and of course, new graphics.
Chronicle of Elyria got some good ideas aswell. That in starwars setting would be cool.
I did not read through the whole thread, probably it was mentioned before. There are no real AAA sandboxes out. The last AAA i remember is SWG. I had great fun in a cool roleplaying guild and it was the only game i enjoyed crafting and gathering. PvP was exciting (ohh a red dot on my map, kill!!). It was nearly perfect, except of combat and the skill system.
if you would make SWG2 it would be a success. 80% of the old game with 20% improvements and of course, new graphics.
Chronicle of Elyria got some good ideas aswell. That in starwars setting would be cool.
PS. I only played pre CU and pre NGE
So it was successful in the past...is that why it is still around? Or was it just a small niche of people that liked it that probably could not pay the license fees?
Comments
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well done.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
List a few of these sandbox games and let us see if we are free to do everything we want.
For example, in any of them, I can do actions that were not allowed by the programmers?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
The problem with Darkfall (in regards to it's sandbox description) was there was little sand, and too few tools. I mean, you could choose how your character progressed and which skills you wanted to use, even (and more often than not) all of them. You could own a house, but were limited to a few styles and very few, predetermined locations. You could craft any item in game - the only limit being the racial badass weapons. You could use any item in game, even noobs could use the most powerful weapons and armor (awesome). You were able to join clans made of any faction. That pretty much sums up the sandbox stuff you could do with tools provided. You could make your destiny as a trader, but there were no tools in place at all to help. You could be a merc, but there were no tools involved to help. Pretty much anything but what I wrote above might be doable, but you'll be making up all of it and if the other players didn't "play along" you were out of luck.
Archeage had a lot of themepark, right? You had levels, quests, etc. But only ran quests for levels until level 30, after that the rest was from crafting, farming, etc. I was able to level my character w/o doing quests. that IMO is a good "sandbox type" feature for a themepark game. The housing was done VERY well, you were limited to style or type, but the land plot locations were much larger and more plentiful than that of DF. not to mention how and where you placed the houses within the plot areas had a much more "sandbox" feel to it. The skill system was more limited than Darkfall, but had options as you leveled your character. Having choices that impact your character are some of what sandbox is. You could be a crafter, trader (I traded property ... and stole it). There were more I'm sure. You couldn't twink out a new character, items were level bound (completely non sandbox). There were basically level restricted zones. I feel that a sandbox needs to be more open where a new player can find some way to survive in any zone, and old players can go to "newbie" zones and still utilize it.
Both of these games were very much sandbox, but limited in too many ways to be considered complete IMO.
TLDR: I would have loved to combine Darkfall skills, item usage with the sandbox elements of Archeage. That would be pretty epic for me.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
Game: Ok, go do whatever you want
Player: I'm bored, there is nothing to do
Game: Uhhh, you can do whatever you want, go kill people, build, fish, dig, mine, chop down trees, kill zombies, farm, craft, hunt
Player: Ehh, no thanks, can you give me stuff to do, im too lazy to do that stuff
Game: This is a sandbox, that is a themepark MMO
Player: Can you like make me go kill some foxes for gold?
Game: No, go do whatever you want
Player: That is boring, Im sitting in a chair and I don't want to do shit
Game: Ummmmm
Player: These sandboxes that you can do anything are shit. Can't you at least get some NPC's with yellow question marks above their heads?
Game: No
Player: Why are you trying something new, this is horrible. Fuck off.
People that bitch about Sandboxes NEED something to do. Some people need to have the supervision and routine of a 9-5 job, some people work their ass off from home and are good at it. Its not the job, its the people performing it.
The OP needs structure and thats fine, plenty of it out there.
And you might be confused by some games "claiming" sandbox. ie Archeage, etc.
But a good sandbox not ruined by cashshops is even more rare, this bullshit has to end or studio;s need to make seperate servers.
They need to get with the times before they ruin even more mmo's that are comming out or just stop making mmo's and make mobile games.
Candy crush studio bought by Activision for + 5 billion......
If they want cashcows go mobile and stop ruining the mmo genre.
WTF. A 2008 MMO would cost you 60 plus 15/mo. Every one. Shittier graphics, no control over anything, bugs, and about 1/100th the options.
People bitching about MMOs now will never be satisfied. What the fuck do you want?
Seriiously, what do you want out of an MMO? Everyone bitching about the genre, there are soooo many options for different playstyles that cost you jack shit. This mentality goes right along with participation rewards and political correctness and all pussification of the US. Grow up and go find something good, quit being a bitch, there is a game for you.
That is where devs creating sandbox worlds need to begin. Find a way to bring players a world they want to participate in, with enjoyable gameplay apart from the actual PvP.
Sandbox are the best online games that you can still call a true mmoRPG experience, where your choices change the world and affect other players, while AAA mmo with some pvp elements are just brawlers is a persistent an static enviroment where the only thing you do is fight monsters, get achievements, and nothing more.
Blame the players that want everything easy, without any confict, if people stop to play these wow clones i'm sure that more professional developers will try to make more sandbox like SWG or UO.
Crowfall - LiF: MMO - Darkfall: New Dawn
Hence why WOW and games like it took off in the manner they did. Sandboxes need to focus on these things as well as what they always have if they're ever going to become more than the niche they are.
As for blaming players... LOL, why blame people for playing what they prefer? That's silly.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Expensive to develop games that are not part of a franchise are failing. And MMOs find it very hard to do a franchise series. TinyMMOs seem to be doing fine financially.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/activision-blizzard-buy-king-digital-035639244.html
If you are interested in making a MMO maybe visit my page to get a free open source engine.
I'm a fan of many of the older MMOs, especially the ones around that time, but to suggest that EQ or DAoC had more options than Battle of Immortals, ArcheAge, RIFT, NWN, or Trove ... I'm just not seeing it.
This is especially true when you consider that you have - depending on one's criteria for "MMO" - 40-200 MMOs to choose from instead of just about a dozen or so.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
EH where you been living? Try building a storage shed outside without first asking for permission and paying the taxes on it. Then it has to be x amount of feet away from the property line and all other kinds of bullcrap. Even in the real world we are very limited to what can be done. We do not play sandbox games so they can mimic real life. Because real life is pay to win.
So, changing games was changing how to play.
Today we do indeed have many more titles but honestly some of them feel exactly like others with different graphics.
"Sandbox" =/= "do anything I can think of". Admittedly people pretty much can't agree on a single definition of what a "sandbox" is, but "do actions not allowed by the programmers" is just ridiculous and/or trolling.
if you would make SWG2 it would be a success. 80% of the old game with 20% improvements and of course, new graphics.
Chronicle of Elyria got some good ideas aswell. That in starwars setting would be cool.
PS. I only played pre CU and pre NGE
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver