Sandbox games simply don't appeal to the masses. That doesn't mean they are failing. Btw. Archeage is not a sandbox game, its a WOW-Clone. Darkfall was a sandbox game, and it succeeded in beeing one of the best games ever created. Some people might have missed out on it, but that's just you failing, not the game.
If there is a sandbox anywhere with a huge world that can be explored without constantly running into mobs every 5 meters, PvP and all that, has some crafting and gathering PLEASE tell me.
These are very simple requirements but I am not going to build it although I could.
try salem
Looked it over. Is this PvP? Nothing saying that on the description just kind of saying the world gets dangerous further out.
There's not much PVP. If you could, post what you think of it afterwards.
I will give it a go tonight. I'm getting burnt out on my stuff and need a break anyway.
They might die if they are labeled a Sandbox and they are nothing of the sort.
There is no such thing as a real Sandbox and likely never will be,it is a loose term tossed around. The closest thing to a Sandbox was likely Landmark,how did that work out?The developer still needs to make the tools.Then who is going to control the world evolving,it has to be automated by the developer.
NONE of these games use an eco system,i might as well just stop there,NONE of these developers are going to create the tools and automated world to be a realistic ,idealized role playing world.Instead they just want to sell you an empty game shell with Voxel farm or something along those lines,like Minecraft,that is about as close to Sandbox as we will ever see.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
They do. What doesn't appeal to the masses is OWPvP. To many sandbox fans that's how you ruin a good sanbox game.
It's amusing how people say this (as well as sandbox doesn't appeal to the masses), yet practically every time there is a sandbox game which has OWPvP it tops the hype meters or at worst is in the top 5.
You know what doesn't appeal to the masses? Complete shit games which had great potential but were executed horribly and run into the ground by incompetence.
Take a look at just about any sandbox game with OWPvP in it that has released in the past decade. They were buggy, half-finished, poorly optimized, lacking promised features or full of features that were only partially implemented, overrun with exploiters, extended periods of time without any updates, etc. Theyve all had several, if not all, of those things and other problems not mentioned. The existence of PvP was not one of the problems, in fact it was one of the things that drew the players to the game in the first place. But desire for a good PvP game only goes so far when you have laundry list of things that are wrong with the game.
They do. What doesn't appeal to the masses is OWPvP. To many sandbox fans that's how you ruin a good sanbox game.
OWPvP is an integral part of sandbox mmorpgs. games that heavily restrict where you can pvp are called themepark games
There, Second Life, Furcadia, and several others have been able to manage rather well without the ability to murder with reckless abandon.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
OWPvP is an integral part of sandbox mmorpgs. games that heavily restrict where you can pvp are called themepark games
Sandbox just means that the game is largely characterized by "sand" (player-authored elements)
But sure, tell us again how you believe Minecraft is a themepark.
A game can be sandbox-ish without PvP, however without the ability to PvP it is not a true sandbox. The ability to attack someone is one of those player-authored elements you speak of.
OWPvP is an integral part of sandbox mmorpgs. games that heavily restrict where you can pvp are called themepark games
Sandbox just means that the game is largely characterized by "sand" (player-authored elements)
But sure, tell us again how you believe Minecraft is a themepark.
A game can be sandbox-ish without PvP, however without the ability to PvP it is not a true sandbox. The ability to attack someone is one of those player-authored elements you speak of.
I'm going to strongly disagree with you mate. OWPVP is simply an element that may be included in a sandbox game but in no way is required. You may like it better with it included, others may like it excluded but it is just a single grain in a box of sand.
OWPvP is an integral part of sandbox mmorpgs. games that heavily restrict where you can pvp are called themepark games
Sandbox just means that the game is largely characterized by "sand" (player-authored elements)
But sure, tell us again how you believe Minecraft is a themepark.
A game can be sandbox-ish without PvP, however without the ability to PvP it is not a true sandbox. The ability to attack someone is one of those player-authored elements you speak of.
I'm going to strongly disagree with you mate. OWPVP is simply an element that may be included in a sandbox game but in no way is required. You may like it better with it included, others may like it excluded but it is just a single grain in a box of sand.
To add to this too..... The game people love to quote as being one of the best sandbox games would not be a "sandbox" by many people's standards. SWG had quest npcs and the like and there was absolutely not open world PVP (short of a few planets that were designed specifically for PVP) SWG introduced to us the flagging system for PVP and the guys that walked around with that flag on all the time became known as bad asses because of it. SWG would be what people call a "sandpark" these days and while it leaned more heavily on the sandbox elements it still did borrow some stuff that is considered "themepark" in nature.
The thing that pops up frequently in my mind as to why these games fail is exactly because of what kaiser3282 is suggesting. They are trying most often to court the hardcore PVP crowd as opposed to players that want to play something akin to SWG (which never had forced open world PVP outside of the planets that were designed for it like I said) A sandbox in it's baser form is more heavily player driven content and the like.
Problems arise in most implementations as there is often just a focus on the more combat oriented side of "sandbox" as it were.... Star Wars Galaxies offered a wide breadth of what you could ultimately do.. You could be a dancer, there were tons of non combat based roles it had a little something about it almost anyone could enjoy (before they tried to make it too easy and bring in the more "casual" crowd) things you accomplished meant something and there was a sense of community working together at times (particularly in the trades & crafts & professions arena)
The problem stems from these developers thinking they are targeting a crowd that they simply are not and they are failing to court that crowd most of the time. There are good sandboxes in development that are closer to SWG (the repopulation etc, divergence online, gloria victis, and Chronicles of Elyria (though not fully clear much of what they are describing is sandbox heavy) and that is something to look forward to. As has been seen most of the so called sandbox games out there are really just open world PVP games with little substance outside of that.
OWPvP is an integral part of sandbox mmorpgs. games that heavily restrict where you can pvp are called themepark games
Sandbox just means that the game is largely characterized by "sand" (player-authored elements)
But sure, tell us again how you believe Minecraft is a themepark.
A game can be sandbox-ish without PvP, however without the ability to PvP it is not a true sandbox. The ability to attack someone is one of those player-authored elements you speak of.
I'm going to strongly disagree with you mate. OWPVP is simply an element that may be included in a sandbox game but in no way is required. You may like it better with it included, others may like it excluded but it is just a single grain in a box of sand.
It's hardly a single grain. Just to put it in perspective a bit:
Someone comes along and starts stealing mobs you are trying to kill for a quest just to annoy you. You can't kill them to prevent it. - Not sandbox
Someone is smack talking you for whatever reason. You can't kill them as punishment. - Not sandbox
You come across someone from a clan that you dislike, perhaps your former clan who screwed you out of something then kicked you out. You can't kill them. - Not sandbox
Someone robbed your guild bank and left the guild. You can't hunt them down and kill them and take any of it back. - Not sandbox
You want to issue bounties to other players for killing some other player, maybe someone who harassed you in the past. Can't do it, because there's no PvP. - Not sandbox
(Insert any possible reason for why you would want to kill someone). You can't do it........ Not sandbox.
The lack of the option to PvP, regardless of the reason for wanting to, takes away from the entire concept of a sandbox, which is the freedom to do as you choose. Whether or not there are harsh consequences for your actions (such as criminal flagging) is a different matter. The game still ALLOWS you to do it, you just need to weigh the consequences of your actions. Straight up preventing you from even having the option of PvP is the complete opposite of what a sandbox is supposed to be.
OWPvP is an integral part of sandbox mmorpgs. games that heavily restrict where you can pvp are called themepark games
Sandbox just means that the game is largely characterized by "sand" (player-authored elements)
But sure, tell us again how you believe Minecraft is a themepark.
A game can be sandbox-ish without PvP, however without the ability to PvP it is not a true sandbox. The ability to attack someone is one of those player-authored elements you speak of.
True that! I can't count how many times as a kid I was building stuff with Lincoln Logs and it just felt like something was missing. Luckily my sister would usually walk into the room at some point and BAM... something about beating her about the head and face with a 10 and a half inch cudgel just drove home the complete Lincoln Log experience for me.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
OWPvP is an integral part of sandbox mmorpgs. games that heavily restrict where you can pvp are called themepark games
Sandbox just means that the game is largely characterized by "sand" (player-authored elements)
But sure, tell us again how you believe Minecraft is a themepark.
A game can be sandbox-ish without PvP, however without the ability to PvP it is not a true sandbox. The ability to attack someone is one of those player-authored elements you speak of.
I'm going to strongly disagree with you mate. OWPVP is simply an element that may be included in a sandbox game but in no way is required. You may like it better with it included, others may like it excluded but it is just a single grain in a box of sand.
It's hardly a single grain. Just to put it in perspective a bit:
Someone comes along and starts stealing mobs you are trying to kill for a quest just to annoy you. You can't kill them to prevent it. - Not sandbox
Someone is smack talking you for whatever reason. You can't kill them as punishment. - Not sandbox
You come across someone from a clan that you dislike, perhaps your former clan who screwed you out of something then kicked you out. You can't kill them. - Not sandbox
Someone robbed your guild bank and left the guild. You can't hunt them down and kill them and take any of it back. - Not sandbox
You want to issue bounties to other players for killing some other player, maybe someone who harassed you in the past. Can't do it, because there's no PvP. - Not sandbox
(Insert any possible reason for why you would want to kill someone). You can't do it........ Not sandbox.
The lack of the option to PvP, regardless of the reason for wanting to, takes away from the entire concept of a sandbox, which is the freedom to do as you choose. Whether or not there are harsh consequences for your actions (such as criminal flagging) is a different matter. The game still ALLOWS you to do it, you just need to weigh the consequences of your actions. Straight up preventing you from even having the option of PvP is the complete opposite of what a sandbox is supposed to be.
You can do things a specific way to allow PVP as has been pointed out. The most "beloved sandbox" had open world PVP only on specific planets designed purely for it and introduced us to the flagging system for PVP outside of those zones. If you want to only target the openPVP crowd by all means do it, but the reason these games fail in large part is too large a focus purely on combat based things like this and they are not trying to target the right demographic for this game type by trying to court open world pvp players who more often than not are griefers or trolls.
It's hardly a single grain. Just to put it in perspective a bit:
Someone comes along and starts stealing mobs you are trying to kill for a quest just to annoy you. You can't kill them to prevent it. - Not sandbox
Someone is smack talking you for whatever reason. You can't kill them as punishment. - Not sandbox
You come across someone from a clan that you dislike, perhaps your former clan who screwed you out of something then kicked you out. You can't kill them. - Not sandbox
Someone robbed your guild bank and left the guild. You can't hunt them down and kill them and take any of it back. - Not sandbox
You want to issue bounties to other players for killing some other player, maybe someone who harassed you in the past. Can't do it, because there's no PvP. - Not sandbox
(Insert any possible reason for why you would want to kill someone). You can't do it........ Not sandbox.
The lack of the option to PvP, regardless of the reason for wanting to, takes away from the entire concept of a sandbox, which is the freedom to do as you choose. Whether or not there are harsh consequences for your actions (such as criminal flagging) is a different matter. The game still ALLOWS you to do it, you just need to weigh the consequences of your actions. Straight up preventing you from even having the option of PvP is the complete opposite of what a sandbox is supposed to be.
Um no, that is just a lot of reasons to want access to 1 grain not 10 different grains. Everything you just said is merely the reasons you want to have OWPVP and no matter how many you list it is still just asking for that 1 thing. And no matter how much or many reasons you may want it included sales and success of titles has proven the wider audience simply does not.
We have yet to see a big company make a modern AAA sandbox game. Not just a game with sandbox elements but a real sandbox game.
I think if a company did it right it would have a huge audience. But nobody is willing to take that risk.
The overall problem here is... What is a sandbox? Definitively what we all loved about SWG while sandox in nature for the most part still borrowed elements from themepark MMORPGs. If you want to break down into "true sandbox" territory you would end up with something akin to Second Life where you can do anything you want, build things, have a scripting language and then program in specific things for others to be able to do.
People expecting a "do whatever" you want scenario end up missing some of the finer points that a truly free form sandbox like they are expecting loses pretty much all focus. Sandbox like games need to borrow from themepark and developers need to start targeting the demographic that actually likes these things. Stop trying to court the OWPVP crowd to these games and maybe just maybe there would be more interest in them.
Chronicles of Elyria so far has described systems that sound perfect in regards to... Everything pretty much and when asked gave me answers about how they are going to combat griefers in an open pvp world where dying shortens your lifespan and their business model is pay for a lifespan more or less (40 dollars gets you about a year of playtime if you take no real risks). Their answer is basically the more these people run around killing people the shorter their own lifespan will become basically meaning if you grief a lot you will have to pay for it down the line by your character permanently dying way sooner. (they have way more going on than just this and the game sounds awesome as far as sandbox stuff goes)
There are things coming that are very sandbox heavy and more akin to SWG
We have yet to see a big company make a modern AAA sandbox game. Not just a game with sandbox elements but a real sandbox game.
I think if a company did it right it would have a huge audience. But nobody is willing to take that risk.
The overall problem here is... What is a sandbox?
I really think the problem is people get hung up on "If you exclude X it isn't a sandbox" (X can be anything really). A sandbox is a sandox if it is full of sandboxie elements and that isn't the same as being forcibly filled with every possible sandbox element.
We have yet to see a big company make a modern AAA sandbox game. Not just a game with sandbox elements but a real sandbox game.
I think if a company did it right it would have a huge audience. But nobody is willing to take that risk.
The overall problem here is... What is a sandbox? Definitively what we all loved about SWG while sandox in nature for the most part still borrowed elements from themepark MMORPGs. If you want to break down into "true sandbox" territory you would end up with something akin to Second Life where you can do anything you want, build things, have a scripting language and then program in specific things for others to be able to do.
People expecting a "do whatever" you want scenario end up missing some of the finer points that a truly free form sandbox like they are expecting loses pretty much all focus. Sandbox like games need to borrow from themepark and developers need to start targeting the demographic that actually likes these things. Stop trying to court the OWPVP crowd to these games and maybe just maybe there would be more interest in them.
Chronicles of Elyria so far has described systems that sound perfect in regards to... Everything pretty much and when asked gave me answers about how they are going to combat griefers in an open pvp world where dying shortens your lifespan and their business model is pay for a lifespan more or less (40 dollars gets you about a year of playtime if you take no real risks). Their answer is basically the more these people run around killing people the shorter their own lifespan will become basically meaning if you grief a lot you will have to pay for it down the line by your character permanently dying way sooner. (they have way more going on than just this and the game sounds awesome as far as sandbox stuff goes)
There are things coming that are very sandbox heavy and more akin to SWG
Why should we over analyze this? SWG existed at a time when Themepark was just a type of area to visit in the overall game, there was no real Themepark genre then, WOW essentially lead to the coining of the term.
When someone says sandbox they're talking about a game where you decide how you want to play, essentially what any sandbox mode entailed in older RTS games. It often goes hand in hand with some type of communal building system in an MMO. What need be considered beyond that? When it comes to understanding what a person is referring to?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
To make a tripple A sandbox a studio needs to have guts and make something we have not seen before without pay to win / pay to advance crap.
And seriously if Archeage wasnt the pay to win sandbox / sandpark like it is it would have been such a fantastic mmo to play and XLgames / Trion added more sand in the box instead of taking it out.
But alas even the ships needed to become pay to win and the cannons and the pets....
#World of Darkness might become what many sandbox players are waiting for if they dont mess it up.
We have yet to see a big company make a modern AAA sandbox game. Not just a game with sandbox elements but a real sandbox game.
I think if a company did it right it would have a huge audience. But nobody is willing to take that risk.
The overall problem here is... What is a sandbox?
I really think the problem is people get hung up on "If you exclude X it isn't a sandbox" (X can be anything really). A sandbox is a sandox if it is full of sandboxie elements and that isn't the same as being forcibly filled with every possible sandbox element.
The thing people fail to realize too.. Sandbox is a lot about player choice, but it was never designed to be an "at the detriment of another player without consent" sort of thing. You can allow both open world and flagged PVP successfully in an overworld type enviroment by making specific completely avoidable zones for open PVP specific (or planets if you have interplanetary travel like SWG) They seem to think that the open world PVP part is the most important element to "sandbox" most of the time, but the other elements are for the most part what make or break a sandbox. It's funny because It boils down to a basic premise of "no open world PVP = not a sandbox" and as I've pointed out in other posts rather well recently. There is TOO much of a combat focus to actually attract the demographic that actually like sandbox MMORPGs and would play them more regularly.
Also I hate to have to be "this guy" but... EVE is a perfect example of too much focus on combat and not enough in other areas. The "other areas" are pretty much just spreadsheets in space with not enough real player choice. While we can break it down to a "you can do what you want" it is at the same time an example where the things outside of things leading to combat are very "token" like and seem like an after though a lot of the time. They choices you do have are so finite and less meaningful/impactful and there is nothing specific to them as far as skills ec..
We focus on too few elements when making sandbox and we focus on "needing" the wrong kind all to often
Why should we over analyze this? SWG existed at a time when Themepark was just a type of area to visit in the overall game, there was no real Themepark genre then, WOW essentially lead to the coining of the term.
When someone says sandbox they're talking about a game where you decide how you want to play, essentially what any sandbox mode entailed in older RTS games. It often goes hand in hand with some type of communal building system in an MMO. What need be considered beyond that? When it comes to understanding what a person is referring to?
Personally I rank player interdependence very high on what makes a good sandbox.
Also, as several have mentioned SWG I would like to point out that before it was revamped there were only a few places to get quest chains and they were very very short compared to Themepark quest hubs (The Imperial Base, The Rebel Base, Nym's, Krayt Skull on Tatooine, Jabba's Palace, maybe 1-2 more). Additionally there were a couple like the Crystal reward outside Bestine from the Imperial facility, the painting on Endor, and the Dathomir Prison. Besides these we basically had the mission terminals.
We have yet to see a big company make a modern AAA sandbox game. Not just a game with sandbox elements but a real sandbox game.
I think if a company did it right it would have a huge audience. But nobody is willing to take that risk.
The overall problem here is... What is a sandbox? Definitively what we all loved about SWG while sandox in nature for the most part still borrowed elements from themepark MMORPGs. If you want to break down into "true sandbox" territory you would end up with something akin to Second Life where you can do anything you want, build things, have a scripting language and then program in specific things for others to be able to do.
People expecting a "do whatever" you want scenario end up missing some of the finer points that a truly free form sandbox like they are expecting loses pretty much all focus. Sandbox like games need to borrow from themepark and developers need to start targeting the demographic that actually likes these things. Stop trying to court the OWPVP crowd to these games and maybe just maybe there would be more interest in them.
Chronicles of Elyria so far has described systems that sound perfect in regards to... Everything pretty much and when asked gave me answers about how they are going to combat griefers in an open pvp world where dying shortens your lifespan and their business model is pay for a lifespan more or less (40 dollars gets you about a year of playtime if you take no real risks). Their answer is basically the more these people run around killing people the shorter their own lifespan will become basically meaning if you grief a lot you will have to pay for it down the line by your character permanently dying way sooner. (they have way more going on than just this and the game sounds awesome as far as sandbox stuff goes)
There are things coming that are very sandbox heavy and more akin to SWG
Why should we over analyze this? SWG existed at a time when Themepark was just a type of area to visit in the overall game, there was no real Themepark genre then, WOW essentially lead to the coining of the term.
When someone says sandbox they're talking about a game where you decide how you want to play, essentially what any sandbox mode entailed in older RTS games. It often goes hand in hand with some type of communal building system in an MMO. What need be considered beyond that? When it comes to understanding what a person is referring to?
It's not really over analyzing. It's the fact that the wrong demographics are targeted frequently in the hopes of attracting the demographic that liked SWG or "sandbox" like games like it. If we are talking about what people expect these games to encompass we have not actually seen a "good" sandbox mmorpg since SWG and that includes EVE. There is as I've stated multiple times too much of a focus on a very singular area (often very combat focused) while giving players little choice or making other features a token thing. SWG was great because of all the choice you had. You could be an entertainer, focus purely on crafting/trade and do all this other stuff beyond just stuff to further combat for yourself and completely avoid combat related things in their entirety... That is pretty much increasingly impossible with huge focuses on combat and not much else today. So the focus and trying to cater to that singular open world pvp crowd is increasingly becoming a problem in and of itself.
There needs to be arguments further into it purely because the elements people seem to want to add or claim are necessary are problematic and focus the game in a poor direction demographic wise. I know what a sandbox is and where the term came from. My question was more "what do we define a sandbox as as far as an MMORPG goes?" and It is more seeming that people are wanting some kind of world devoid of any content outside of open world PVP or it won't be a "sandbox" to them...
Why should we over analyze this? SWG existed at a time when Themepark was just a type of area to visit in the overall game, there was no real Themepark genre then, WOW essentially lead to the coining of the term.
When someone says sandbox they're talking about a game where you decide how you want to play, essentially what any sandbox mode entailed in older RTS games. It often goes hand in hand with some type of communal building system in an MMO. What need be considered beyond that? When it comes to understanding what a person is referring to?
Personally I rank player interdependence very high on what makes a good sandbox.
Also, as several have mentioned SWG I would like to point out that before it was revamped there were only a few places to get quest chains and they were very very short compared to Themepark quest hubs (The Imperial Base, The Rebel Base, Nym's, Krayt Skull on Tatooine, Jabba's Palace, maybe 1-2 more). Additionally there were a couple like the Crystal reward outside Bestine from the Imperial facility, the painting on Endor, and the Dathomir Prison. Besides these we basically had the mission terminals.
The themeparkification came with the NGE.
That is what I mean though... Those few quests and the mission terminals to some people would automatically make it a sandpark by their current definitions. People seem to define sandpark as more or less any game that has sandbox elements that adds any sort of quests into the mix which even the most popular sanboxes people like to point out in general were not devoid of any PVE based content.
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There is no such thing as a real Sandbox and likely never will be,it is a loose term tossed around.
The closest thing to a Sandbox was likely Landmark,how did that work out?The developer still needs to make the tools.Then who is going to control the world evolving,it has to be automated by the developer.
NONE of these games use an eco system,i might as well just stop there,NONE of these developers are going to create the tools and automated world to be a realistic ,idealized role playing world.Instead they just want to sell you an empty game shell with Voxel farm or something along those lines,like Minecraft,that is about as close to Sandbox as we will ever see.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You know what doesn't appeal to the masses? Complete shit games which had great potential but were executed horribly and run into the ground by incompetence.
Take a look at just about any sandbox game with OWPvP in it that has released in the past decade. They were buggy, half-finished, poorly optimized, lacking promised features or full of features that were only partially implemented, overrun with exploiters, extended periods of time without any updates, etc. Theyve all had several, if not all, of those things and other problems not mentioned. The existence of PvP was not one of the problems, in fact it was one of the things that drew the players to the game in the first place. But desire for a good PvP game only goes so far when you have laundry list of things that are wrong with the game.
You should read the OP first before just throwing up like that.
Also I'd like to add theme park games can have OWPvP.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
But sure, tell us again how you believe Minecraft is a themepark.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
OWPVP is simply an element that may be included in a sandbox game but in no way is required.
You may like it better with it included, others may like it excluded but it is just a single grain in a box of sand.
The thing that pops up frequently in my mind as to why these games fail is exactly because of what kaiser3282 is suggesting. They are trying most often to court the hardcore PVP crowd as opposed to players that want to play something akin to SWG (which never had forced open world PVP outside of the planets that were designed for it like I said) A sandbox in it's baser form is more heavily player driven content and the like.
Problems arise in most implementations as there is often just a focus on the more combat oriented side of "sandbox" as it were.... Star Wars Galaxies offered a wide breadth of what you could ultimately do.. You could be a dancer, there were tons of non combat based roles it had a little something about it almost anyone could enjoy (before they tried to make it too easy and bring in the more "casual" crowd) things you accomplished meant something and there was a sense of community working together at times (particularly in the trades & crafts & professions arena)
The problem stems from these developers thinking they are targeting a crowd that they simply are not and they are failing to court that crowd most of the time. There are good sandboxes in development that are closer to SWG (the repopulation etc, divergence online, gloria victis, and Chronicles of Elyria (though not fully clear much of what they are describing is sandbox heavy) and that is something to look forward to. As has been seen most of the so called sandbox games out there are really just open world PVP games with little substance outside of that.
Someone comes along and starts stealing mobs you are trying to kill for a quest just to annoy you. You can't kill them to prevent it. - Not sandbox
Someone is smack talking you for whatever reason. You can't kill them as punishment. - Not sandbox
You come across someone from a clan that you dislike, perhaps your former clan who screwed you out of something then kicked you out. You can't kill them. - Not sandbox
Someone robbed your guild bank and left the guild. You can't hunt them down and kill them and take any of it back. - Not sandbox
You want to issue bounties to other players for killing some other player, maybe someone who harassed you in the past. Can't do it, because there's no PvP. - Not sandbox
(Insert any possible reason for why you would want to kill someone). You can't do it........ Not sandbox.
The lack of the option to PvP, regardless of the reason for wanting to, takes away from the entire concept of a sandbox, which is the freedom to do as you choose. Whether or not there are harsh consequences for your actions (such as criminal flagging) is a different matter. The game still ALLOWS you to do it, you just need to weigh the consequences of your actions. Straight up preventing you from even having the option of PvP is the complete opposite of what a sandbox is supposed to be.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Everything you just said is merely the reasons you want to have OWPVP and no matter how many you list it is still just asking for that 1 thing.
And no matter how much or many reasons you may want it included sales and success of titles has proven the wider audience simply does not.
People expecting a "do whatever" you want scenario end up missing some of the finer points that a truly free form sandbox like they are expecting loses pretty much all focus. Sandbox like games need to borrow from themepark and developers need to start targeting the demographic that actually likes these things. Stop trying to court the OWPVP crowd to these games and maybe just maybe there would be more interest in them.
Chronicles of Elyria so far has described systems that sound perfect in regards to... Everything pretty much and when asked gave me answers about how they are going to combat griefers in an open pvp world where dying shortens your lifespan and their business model is pay for a lifespan more or less (40 dollars gets you about a year of playtime if you take no real risks). Their answer is basically the more these people run around killing people the shorter their own lifespan will become basically meaning if you grief a lot you will have to pay for it down the line by your character permanently dying way sooner. (they have way more going on than just this and the game sounds awesome as far as sandbox stuff goes)
There are things coming that are very sandbox heavy and more akin to SWG
A sandbox is a sandox if it is full of sandboxie elements and that isn't the same as being forcibly filled with every possible sandbox element.
When someone says sandbox they're talking about a game where you decide how you want to play, essentially what any sandbox mode entailed in older RTS games. It often goes hand in hand with some type of communal building system in an MMO. What need be considered beyond that? When it comes to understanding what a person is referring to?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
And seriously if Archeage wasnt the pay to win sandbox / sandpark like it is it would have been such a fantastic mmo to play and XLgames / Trion added more sand in the box instead of taking it out.
But alas even the ships needed to become pay to win and the cannons and the pets....
#World of Darkness might become what many sandbox players are waiting for if they dont mess it up.
Also I hate to have to be "this guy" but... EVE is a perfect example of too much focus on combat and not enough in other areas. The "other areas" are pretty much just spreadsheets in space with not enough real player choice. While we can break it down to a "you can do what you want" it is at the same time an example where the things outside of things leading to combat are very "token" like and seem like an after though a lot of the time. They choices you do have are so finite and less meaningful/impactful and there is nothing specific to them as far as skills ec..
We focus on too few elements when making sandbox and we focus on "needing" the wrong kind all to often
Also, as several have mentioned SWG I would like to point out that before it was revamped there were only a few places to get quest chains and they were very very short compared to Themepark quest hubs (The Imperial Base, The Rebel Base, Nym's, Krayt Skull on Tatooine, Jabba's Palace, maybe 1-2 more).
Additionally there were a couple like the Crystal reward outside Bestine from the Imperial facility, the painting on Endor, and the Dathomir Prison.
Besides these we basically had the mission terminals.
The themeparkification came with the NGE.
There needs to be arguments further into it purely because the elements people seem to want to add or claim are necessary are problematic and focus the game in a poor direction demographic wise. I know what a sandbox is and where the term came from. My question was more "what do we define a sandbox as as far as an MMORPG goes?" and It is more seeming that people are wanting some kind of world devoid of any content outside of open world PVP or it won't be a "sandbox" to them...