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Why are sandboxes failing?
filmoret
Member EpicPosts: 4,906
People seem to want a sandbox but they are all dead compared to other mmo's. Why are these games failing when they seem so ideal? My theory is the developers are making anarchy sandbox games instead of civilized sandbox games. Once they start putting order to the sandbox people cry and start calling it themepark. I feel that anarchy sandbox designs do not work at all. But has anyone made a sandbox where they had civilized towns with guards enforcing laws if you were stupid enough to break them? Mortal Online attempts such feats but the way it is implemented gives much reason for player dislikes. Sandboxers claim they want total anarchy gameplay yet developers know this is just a waste of time because without civilizations to create a box for the sand you just have a sandpile.
Comments
Sandboxes are a niche of the MMORPG market
OWPVP is a niche of sandboxes and devs keep sticking owpvp in their sandboxes
So, you have a niche of a niche in a niche market that can't get enough players to float...not suprising.
@TwoThreeFour
Hafen? Details or a link? Just curious.
@filmoret
Yes going to echo Kano and add, please define "failing" :: financially? Popularity? Functionally? etc.
Which sandbox is failing? Well Arcadia, Mortal Online, Darkfall, Wurm, Anything labeled sandbox is not popular at all. Except for H1Z1 which does not qualify as an mmorpg really.
@rounner I was describing what might be causing sandbox mmorpg's so unpopular.
@seiroth so you are calling skyrim sandbox because you can attack anyone anywhere? Why exactly is Skyrim considered sandbox because you cant do nothing but attack things and talk to things? Skyrim is a horrible example of sandbox.
Which brings me to the OP which is trying to figure out why they are failing. Simply saying they aren't good doesn't really give much information.
PvPers have always and will remain the lower population.. especially those interested in open pvp.
Which version of Law and Order? The original Series with Chris Noth and Jerry Orbach was great or anytime Jerry Orbach was on it. Didn't get into most of the other series. L&O Criminal Intent was fun to watch.
If you are going to model this on TV Crime Shows, I would suggest Starsky and Hutch or Miami Vice. If you are looking for more of a Role Playing thing, you might try Banacek as a basis and it would be sort of like TSW only for cheap detective mmorpgs.
/*for those who don't know, this wasn't a serious post*/
[mod edit]
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
In my opinion a good Sandbox is far more expensive to make than a Themepark where generally the content is copy and paste.
Unfortunately though, only Indies are interested in making one, and Indies do not have the financial cover to make a AAA Sandbox.
Big companies are not interested because their marketing department decided that Sandboxes don't have mass appeal, though no AAA Sandbox has been made yet, so where the marketing gets their data is still a mistery to me (Maybe they just look at MO numbers, who knows).
So we are stuck with crappy Sandboxes, until an Indie hit the jackpot and magically they manage to make a great game with little money.
Only then you will see big companies suddenly jumping on the sandbox train.
The point being that many MMOs and games in general fail for various reasons and not necessarily because it happens to be in a certain category. Things aren't usually as simple as that.
I self identify as a monkey.
if a game is a sandbox, people start calling it a "grinder" because there aren't any quests. People don't want to grind mobs all day instead of questing and other ingenious forms of questing we've seen in gw2. the majority of players are used to quests.
i like grinding mobs for exp. i dont mind OWPVP if there are OWPVP rewards such as DAOC style +points to stats for each rank you get. I dont like OWPVP awards such as "Rank 2: you can now cast a banner that gives you a 5% speed boost for 5 seconds".
I also think sandboxes struggle with motivating players. With the themeparks you just need to run that crappy dungeon 3 more times to get the token to get the item that will increase your healing to help your group clear the dungeon you are actually interested in. Carrot-on-a-stick gameplay is constant motivation, and despite it being implemented very poorly these days, I still think it is an important aspect of RPGs. A lot of sandboxes neglect to give the player these important short term goals.
"Sandboxers claim they want total anarchy..." They do? Interesting.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Call me carebear, but Archeage with more sea dangers and roving mobs that attack caravans in a PvE only setting would be kinda cool.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I'm one of the 'get off my lawn' guys that fondly look back to the good ole' days of MMORPG Virtual Worlds. I have some strong views and feelings on so much mmo subject matter, one of which is that I absolutely love PVP. Even when I am not good at it in a particular MMO, I feel it's the best way to reach the thrill of combat, as PVE/NPC combat is predictable and/or scripted completely and offers as much challenge (in combat) as a game of musical chairs. For this reason, I've always gravitated towards the stance that "real sandboxes have to have pvp" ---
I think I need to rethink that, as I read what I quoted. I absolutely agree, and I find it hard to believe that anyone active in the MMORPG genre over the years wouldn't agree as well with this.
I wouldn't start up a game of ANNO 2070 if I was in the mood for combat/naval warfare. It's a game for building, expanding, and micromanagement. Similarly, I would not launch Mortal Kombat if I wanted to roleplay, progress, and accessorize a character with loot. Or if I wanted to build a town, why would I play Super Mario brothers?
I'm sort of blown away that I never took this perspective to heart. It also may be the exact reason I can't stand the sandbox choices we have today (aside from EVE. Active or Inactive subscription, the game is a part of my soul.)
All the sandbox options today are just not hitting the mark. As lok said, they are either "play house and gather and farm and watch it all be destroyed by trolls/kids" or it's "kill everything and everyone everywhere and there's nothing else to do" --- I don't think people like myself want to play either of those kinds of games. I'd like freedom to play how I wish, when I wish, for as long as I wish, and I'd like the time that I do play to provide opportunity to impact the world my character is a part of. If that means building a house, or picking up a mug of ale and placing it on another table, it's still better than just logging in to raid, or to shoot stuff. I don't need to be able to kill every player I see, or destroy their property. But I'd also like there to be a "way" to do those things. I.e. war declaration system or bounty system or criminal system, etc