I think pure Sandboxes making it are the exception not the rule. Sure the ones that made it, made it big. Like Minecraft. IMO the winning model will be a union of Sandbox best features and Themepark. Between the two is something that IMO will be the next winning MMO.
You just describd Archeage. It is a shame Trion didn't see they had a hit in their hands and decided to ruin everything with that awful Cash Shop.
I said many times thar Archeage design is the future of MMORPGs, now let's see if someone can make one with the right business model.
EVE Online is alive 12 years later...Hard to claim Sandboxes fail. The weakness of modern sandboxes is asuming an MMORPG devoid of features counts as a sandbox.
So does WoW, what's your point? Both games are failing in popularity as of late. With WoW being few million times more popular than EvE has ever been...
EvE is the best sandbox and probably the only good one at the moment and its going strong. Mortal Online, Wurm etc failed before they were released due to many many problems.
Its simply not true that sandboxes are failing because other then EvE , there are none!
And yeah, just calling something a sandbox doesn't make it so. I have played EvE but am tired of it now and would like a land based sandbox but there is nothing right now that seems playable.
I have a little bit of interest in Gloria Victis but we'll see.
Could it be greed? Just about every game that Ive played in your defined niche usually has groups of players( guild, frat, friends) that play the/a char 24/7 and get said char to such a dominant level they then control an aspect of said game and proceed to ruin/control . Said chars will then control certain parts of the economy and loot and nobody else will get the spoils....Casual gamers have jobs and lives outside of the game and will dump it when they realize they won't be getting the good toys because the "syndicate" has already been established....Casual gamers will then gravitate back toward themeparks with instances so they too can have the cool gear.....GREED ruins so many things in life...Who wants to escape the rat race to play a game that is socially worse....not many
I agree. I play games for fun and enjoyment. I have Darwinistic survival of the fittest in my real existence that I experience every day. My fun and enjoyment time will not be taken up by the same in some virtual reality quasi existence.
There has not been a "quality" sandbox launched since SWG.
Since then, it has been crap, bugged out indie garbage (MO, Darkfall 1/2, Pathfinder, Earthrise), cash shop heavy p2w Asian imports (AoW, AA), or the rare other game that shot itself in the head with bad game mechanics or management decisions (POTBS, and a few other lesser titles).
Basically all that is left is EvE and possibly an emulator for a game ending in "galaxies" that is not supposed to be mentioned.
And a quality sandbox costs money to make, and there have been no Western developers interested in laying out the cash in the last 6-8 years.
I wouldn't call Darkfall bugged out garbage. The full loot no consequences for randomly killing people design of the game has limited their playerbase significantly. The sub only payment model is likely limiting their audience as people increasingly act like they can't afford $15 a month. As a self professed carebear, I did play DFUW for a couple years and enjoyed myself surprisingly. I think if many people went outside what they think like only, they would be shocked at what games they would end up playing.
OP there are less PvP oriented sandboxes coming out The Repopulation etc...We will see how those games do. The Repopulation is too focused on crafting and actually has PvE with too little focus, if you ask me. They have quite a bit of work to do.
Phrases like a “vibrant living world” and “visceral feel” get
thrown around a lot in games. It’s clear we want our game worlds to be,
if not real, then at least tangible in a way that allows us to treat
them as real. We want more than a simple background behind our
characters as we hack and slash our way to victory. In short, we want
our worlds to feel like worlds. Revival’s world of Theleston is built
around this desire.
Living things grow and change
When we talk about things being living in the games industry, we
usually mean “dynamic” -- we mean that things need to change, so that
what you saw one day isn’t necessarily what you will see the next. For
us, that’s a pretty good start, but it’s only the first requirement on a
longer list.
It’s not enough for a world to simply change. To truly live, a
world needs to grow: that change has to be guided and directed. That
world also needs to respond to the things done upon it, to essentially
play with the players that tread its surface.
Theleston is such a world; whether Theleston thrives or dies
depends not on the roll of the dice, but rather on the impact of its
denizens and powers. This will have the effect of creating a play space
where new events can dynamically appear across the world, but they won’t
be simply chosen from a list or picked by capricious random numbers.
The world won’t simply change, it will grow or wither in response to
events, as well.
How do events unfold in the world, then?
Some might wonder how a living world works, if it’s not simply
randomly selected content. Picture in your mind, a watch. On its face,
it has two, maybe three, little arms that move across a circle with a
few numbers on it and nothing more. It seems to be a very simple device,
but when you turn the watch over and look at the inside, you see a
complicated set of gears and springs. In other words, complex machines
are sometimes necessary to create the simple, elegant motions we
ourselves normally see. In a way, Revival’s world of Theleston is the
same.
Our agenda-based storytelling technology has been developed to
choose world events intelligently, and in accordance to the storylines
lain out by our Storytelling team. This conductor technology keeps the
world alive with new happenings for players to respond to. In addition
to that, we have built an extensive framework that enables our content
team to easily respond to player choices and activities by steering the
world’s content in particular ways.
Finally, articulate needs-based NPC AI makes our population look intelligent and alive.
How does karma make the world live?
While our karma system can quickly and easily help a player
determine if someone is evil or not, it too is like a clockwork: beneath
the surface of that simple assessment is a record of deeds and the
judgement of the gods and powers of the world associated with it.
Something as simple as where you’ve been in the world can alter some
element of your karma. In this way, everything you do plays its part not
only in how you develop, but in how the world responds to you.
The world, in turn, works the same way. Areas keep their own
karmic relationship with the powers of the world and the flow of destiny
and this relationship works with the karmic balances of the players in
the area to help determine what happens here. Sometimes, this can be
simple things such as a town expanding its farmable fields as players
wipe out the dangerous predators in the area, but it can also lead to
momentous things such as the rise and fall of cults and great powers.
But what about the minute details? The Day to day?
Of course, karma alone doesn’t drive the day to day motivations of
the players or the world’s NPCs. Players have whims and desires and so
do the NPCs of the world. These desires drive the NPCs in their day to
day work and help to define their habits and their moment by moment
decisions.
Whether a guard decides to be diligent in his duties or to slack
on the job and instead spend his time chatting up his friends depends on
how that guard is feeling that day and his general disposition. This
sort of desire driven AI is applied to all of the denizens of Theleston,
from simple animals up to the powerful spawn of the great old ones or
the outer gods.
But won’t that be robotic and mechanical, like a watch?
As we’ve already hinted, the live storytelling team is the
solution to the problem. Left to its own devices, Revival offers an
intricate and varied sandbox for players to experience, but what really
sets it apart and makes the world grow and change like a thing alive is
the mind guiding its development, it’s live team. Taking the roles of
the most powerful gods and beings in the world, they will push the
players to excel and will act as the guiding hand that forces the world
to change. This presents the players with the chance to interfere with
or assist their plans, and this interaction is what truly breathes life
into the world of Theleston. No day will ever be the same as the one
before it, but every day will play its part in building the unique and
ever expanding history of the world.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Lets not kid ourselves: MMORPG sandboxes just aren't very good. Mediocre at best. They are mostly unpolished, their pacing is slow, gameplay severely lacking at times and they are buggy.
Someone might like these games regardless (and that is perfectly fine), but even that someone can't deny that these games could be much, much better.
And I'm not saying making a good sandbox MMORPG is easy. It is incredibly hard. Just look at all the failed attempts.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
EvE is the best sandbox and probably the only good one at the moment and its going strong. Mortal Online, Wurm etc failed before they were released due to many many problems.
Its simply not true that sandboxes are failing because other then EvE , there are none!
And yeah, just calling something a sandbox doesn't make it so. I have played EvE but am tired of it now and would like a land based sandbox but there is nothing right now that seems playable.
I have a little bit of interest in Gloria Victis but we'll see.
Wurm didn't fail it's still going now with a loyal community, why people call EVE a sandbox is beyond me. Wurm is about as sandbox as it get's, when you look at what you can actually do in Wurm then realize that EVE is not a true sandbox game.
Mincraft is the son of Wurm online but less complicated.
1) Most players rely on others to create content for them 2) Sandbox more often than not ends up being about zerg fests and farming new players for their tears.
Because at the moment the only ones being made are always FFA PVP sandboxes and people are sick of it...... SWG was not all about Pvp like these ones now days and I still consider that the best sandbox that's been made so far.......
It seems like every time you hear about a new sandbox game it's gotta have some kind of ffa pvp or loot on kill or some weird crap. I mean because them games are doing so well right *rollseyes* is that all people think sandboxes are?
And this is actually coming from someone who enjoys pvp but for some reason people think it's gotta be some gankfest to be a sandbox.......
That's the thing though sandbox is not just about pvp it's a mix of pve and pvp that's the problem all these new so called sandboxes are focusing on nothing but pvp so of course there gonna be niche.....
The thing is in sandboxes your suppose to have choices not once I hit max level I have to go pvp because there is nothing else to do that's not a sandbox..........
FFA PVP is reason ? More likely bad PVP rule is the reason. Those PVP "sandbox" that failed all have same flaw , too much reward and less risk in PK while PVE carry too much risk and less reward .
They failed because they can't keep the balance between things and fall to the same old pit .
Wurm didn't fail it's still going now with a loyal community, why people call EVE a sandbox is beyond me. Wurm is about as sandbox as it get's, when you look at what you can actually do in Wurm then realize that EVE is not a true sandbox game.
Mincraft is the son of Wurm online but less complicated.
That's the thing though sandbox is not just about pvp it's a mix of pve and pvp that's the problem all these new so called sandboxes are focusing on nothing but pvp so of course there gonna be niche.....
The thing is in sandboxes your suppose to have choices not once I hit max level I have to go pvp because there is nothing else to do that's not a sandbox..........
That's why you have different servers,PVE and PVP.
Wurm has this system, in fact i can sail across a server boarders. A modern day or updated graphic sandbox like with the features of Wurm would be a hit for sandbox lovers.
EvE is the best sandbox and probably the only good one at the moment and its going strong. Mortal Online, Wurm etc failed before they were releasSavageHorizon said:
EvE is the best sandbox and probably the only good one at the moment and its going strong. Mortal Online, Wurm etc failed before they were released due to many many problems.
Its simply not true that sandboxes are failing because other then EvE , there are none!
And yeah, just calling something a sandbox doesn't make it so. I have played EvE but am tired of it now and would like a land based sandbox but there is nothing right now that seems playable.
I have a little bit of interest in Gloria Victis but we'll see.
Wurm didn't fail it's still going now with a loyal community, why people call EVE a sandbox is beyond me. Wurm is about as sandbox as it get's, when you look at what you can actually do in Wurm then realize that EVE is not a true sandbox game.
Mincraft is the son of Wurm online but less complicated.
EvE is the best sandbox and probably the only good one at the moment and its going strong. Mortal Online, Wurm etc failed before they were released due to many many problems.
Its simply not true that sandboxes are failing because other then EvE , there are none!
And yeah, just calling something a sandbox doesn't make it so. I have played EvE but am tired of it now and would like a land based sandbox but there is nothing right now that seems playable.
I have a little bit of interest in Gloria Victis but we'll see.
Wurm didn't fail it's still going now with a loyal community, why people call EVE a sandbox is beyond me. Wurm is about as sandbox as it get's, when you look at what you can actually do in Wurm then realize that EVE is not a true sandbox game.
Mincraft is the son of Wurm online but less complicated.
You shouldnt take the literal meaning of sandbox. Sandbox games doesnt mean making castles out of sand in the game, but that the players create content for each other. EvE is all about player created content as the PVE in the game is not great.
Alliances controlling space and resources and fighting over them is sandbox gameplay, playing the market is sandbox gameplay, bounties and low sec piracy is sandbox gameplay, wormholes etc.
Alliances controlling space and resources and fighting over them is sandbox gameplay, playing the market is sandbox gameplay, bounties and low sec piracy is sandbox gameplay, wormholes etc.
I wouldn't class any of those sandbox mechanics as you could easily put them in theme park games.
EvE is the best sandbox and probably the only good one at the moment and its going strong. Mortal Online, Wurm etc failed before they were releasSavageHorizon said:
EvE is the best sandbox and probably the only good one at the moment and its going strong. Mortal Online, Wurm etc failed before they were released due to many many problems.
Its simply not true that sandboxes are failing because other then EvE , there are none!
And yeah, just calling something a sandbox doesn't make it so. I have played EvE but am tired of it now and would like a land based sandbox but there is nothing right now that seems playable.
I have a little bit of interest in Gloria Victis but we'll see.
Wurm didn't fail it's still going now with a loyal community, why people call EVE a sandbox is beyond me. Wurm is about as sandbox as it get's, when you look at what you can actually do in Wurm then realize that EVE is not a true sandbox game.
Mincraft is the son of Wurm online but less complicated.
EvE is the best sandbox and probably the only good one at the moment and its going strong. Mortal Online, Wurm etc failed before they were released due to many many problems.
Its simply not true that sandboxes are failing because other then EvE , there are none!
And yeah, just calling something a sandbox doesn't make it so. I have played EvE but am tired of it now and would like a land based sandbox but there is nothing right now that seems playable.
I have a little bit of interest in Gloria Victis but we'll see.
Wurm didn't fail it's still going now with a loyal community, why people call EVE a sandbox is beyond me. Wurm is about as sandbox as it get's, when you look at what you can actually do in Wurm then realize that EVE is not a true sandbox game.
Mincraft is the son of Wurm online but less complicated.
You shouldnt take the literal meaning of sandbox. Sandbox games doesnt mean making castles out of sand in the game, but that the players create content for each other. EvE is all about player created content as the PVE in the game is not great.
Alliances controlling space and resources and fighting over them is sandbox gameplay, playing the market is sandbox gameplay, bounties and low sec piracy is sandbox gameplay, wormholes etc.
You obviously didn't watch that vid i posted, EVE is like Age Of Wushu which is imo not a true sandbox mmo.
Alliances controlling space and resources and fighting over them is sandbox gameplay, playing the market is sandbox gameplay, bounties and low sec piracy is sandbox gameplay, wormholes etc.
I wouldn't class any of those sandbox mechanics as you could easily put them in theme park games.
Heck ESO PVP is not far off what he describes lol.
Like the first responder said, what sandboxes? They few that have been produced have been low budget. I think that is the crux of their problem, limited resources.
The same way societies have structures, games have to have them. Its not about control, its about purpose. So people NEED rules, need guidance. Even if they're against the rules or the guides, they use them to define what "they dont like" and therefore get to know what they actually like.
In sandboxes there are none. You're "just there", theres no purpose, and a game has to have a purpose. If you dont have any rules, it falls into chaos where only the worse of humans thrive - see dayz.
So thats why sandboxes dont work. Lack of purpose. Emptiness of soul when you have nothing to achieve. When theres noone telling you "YOU CANT DO THAT" it wont fire the human spirit, rules and limitations are the spark of "just you wait btch". Thats what motivates a human mind, the challenge. Not getting into a game and saying "you can do whatever, bye".
@Jermzy - if you're looking for good pvp in mmorpgs you're just wrong. An rpg is not about pvp, never was, never should be the main focus of an rpg game. RPGs were always about an adventure of beating the odds against a DM - on a computer game, the DM is the dev and you're the challenger, so go solo, or grab your team and go fight against it. An RPG its about team-play to accomplish something (you know, the thief brings the lockpick, the dwarf brings the axe, the mage brings the mind control and the damage against what the physical cant touch, etc etc). You have no idea what an RPG is.
Alliances controlling space and resources and fighting over them is sandbox gameplay, playing the market is sandbox gameplay, bounties and low sec piracy is sandbox gameplay, wormholes etc.
I wouldn't class any of those sandbox mechanics as you could easily put them in theme park games.
Heck ESO PVP is not far off what he describes lol.
It's very close.
Also, you can have great sandbox games without PvP, as it isn't a sandbox mechanic. It's something you can add to a sandbox game.
Sandbox games should be left to smaller servers with different rule sets.
On top of your error I pointed out before, you are starting to make gross assumptions on games you have knowledge nor experience with...do not go that path.
Comments
It is a shame Trion didn't see they had a hit in their hands and decided to ruin everything with that awful Cash Shop.
I said many times thar Archeage design is the future of MMORPGs, now let's see if someone can make one with the right business model.
Its simply not true that sandboxes are failing because other then EvE , there are none!
And yeah, just calling something a sandbox doesn't make it so. I have played EvE but am tired of it now and would like a land based sandbox but there is nothing right now that seems playable.
I have a little bit of interest in Gloria Victis but we'll see.
OP there are less PvP oriented sandboxes coming out The Repopulation etc...We will see how those games do. The Repopulation is too focused on crafting and actually has PvE with too little focus, if you ask me. They have quite a bit of work to do.
https://www.revivalgame.com/features/living_world
How do you make a world live?
Phrases like a “vibrant living world” and “visceral feel” get thrown around a lot in games. It’s clear we want our game worlds to be, if not real, then at least tangible in a way that allows us to treat them as real. We want more than a simple background behind our characters as we hack and slash our way to victory. In short, we want our worlds to feel like worlds. Revival’s world of Theleston is built around this desire.
Living things grow and change
When we talk about things being living in the games industry, we usually mean “dynamic” -- we mean that things need to change, so that what you saw one day isn’t necessarily what you will see the next. For us, that’s a pretty good start, but it’s only the first requirement on a longer list.
It’s not enough for a world to simply change. To truly live, a world needs to grow: that change has to be guided and directed. That world also needs to respond to the things done upon it, to essentially play with the players that tread its surface.
Theleston is such a world; whether Theleston thrives or dies depends not on the roll of the dice, but rather on the impact of its denizens and powers. This will have the effect of creating a play space where new events can dynamically appear across the world, but they won’t be simply chosen from a list or picked by capricious random numbers. The world won’t simply change, it will grow or wither in response to events, as well.
How do events unfold in the world, then?
Some might wonder how a living world works, if it’s not simply randomly selected content. Picture in your mind, a watch. On its face, it has two, maybe three, little arms that move across a circle with a few numbers on it and nothing more. It seems to be a very simple device, but when you turn the watch over and look at the inside, you see a complicated set of gears and springs. In other words, complex machines are sometimes necessary to create the simple, elegant motions we ourselves normally see. In a way, Revival’s world of Theleston is the same.
Our agenda-based storytelling technology has been developed to choose world events intelligently, and in accordance to the storylines lain out by our Storytelling team. This conductor technology keeps the world alive with new happenings for players to respond to. In addition to that, we have built an extensive framework that enables our content team to easily respond to player choices and activities by steering the world’s content in particular ways.
Finally, articulate needs-based NPC AI makes our population look intelligent and alive.
How does karma make the world live?
While our karma system can quickly and easily help a player determine if someone is evil or not, it too is like a clockwork: beneath the surface of that simple assessment is a record of deeds and the judgement of the gods and powers of the world associated with it. Something as simple as where you’ve been in the world can alter some element of your karma. In this way, everything you do plays its part not only in how you develop, but in how the world responds to you.
The world, in turn, works the same way. Areas keep their own karmic relationship with the powers of the world and the flow of destiny and this relationship works with the karmic balances of the players in the area to help determine what happens here. Sometimes, this can be simple things such as a town expanding its farmable fields as players wipe out the dangerous predators in the area, but it can also lead to momentous things such as the rise and fall of cults and great powers.
But what about the minute details? The Day to day?
Of course, karma alone doesn’t drive the day to day motivations of the players or the world’s NPCs. Players have whims and desires and so do the NPCs of the world. These desires drive the NPCs in their day to day work and help to define their habits and their moment by moment decisions.
Whether a guard decides to be diligent in his duties or to slack on the job and instead spend his time chatting up his friends depends on how that guard is feeling that day and his general disposition. This sort of desire driven AI is applied to all of the denizens of Theleston, from simple animals up to the powerful spawn of the great old ones or the outer gods.
But won’t that be robotic and mechanical, like a watch?
As we’ve already hinted, the live storytelling team is the solution to the problem. Left to its own devices, Revival offers an intricate and varied sandbox for players to experience, but what really sets it apart and makes the world grow and change like a thing alive is the mind guiding its development, it’s live team. Taking the roles of the most powerful gods and beings in the world, they will push the players to excel and will act as the guiding hand that forces the world to change. This presents the players with the chance to interfere with or assist their plans, and this interaction is what truly breathes life into the world of Theleston. No day will ever be the same as the one before it, but every day will play its part in building the unique and ever expanding history of the world.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Web & Graphic Design - www.xdrac.com
Someone might like these games regardless (and that is perfectly fine), but even that someone can't deny that these games could be much, much better.
And I'm not saying making a good sandbox MMORPG is easy. It is incredibly hard. Just look at all the failed attempts.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Mincraft is the son of Wurm online but less complicated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvBDYdVQoPw
2) Sandbox more often than not ends up being about zerg fests and farming new players for their tears.
It seems like every time you hear about a new sandbox game it's gotta have some kind of ffa pvp or loot on kill or some weird crap. I mean because them games are doing so well right *rollseyes* is that all people think sandboxes are?
And this is actually coming from someone who enjoys pvp but for some reason people think it's gotta be some gankfest to be a sandbox.......
If pvp is not your thing, and you just want the easy, unchallenging, grindfest pve...then your future is not bright for good games.
The thing is in sandboxes your suppose to have choices not once I hit max level I have to go pvp because there is nothing else to do that's not a sandbox..........
Those PVP "sandbox" that failed all have same flaw , too much reward and less risk in PK while PVE carry too much risk and less reward .
They failed because they can't keep the balance between things and fall to the same old pit .
I would even go that far that I would say Wurm is a crafting MMO just like DFUW/MO are PVP MMO but neither is sandbox...but that is just me :-P
Wurm has this system, in fact i can sail across a server boarders. A modern day or updated graphic sandbox like with the features of Wurm would be a hit for sandbox lovers.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/12/28/age-of-wushu-is-probably-the-greatest-sandbox-youll-never-play/
In sandboxes there are none. You're "just there", theres no purpose, and a game has to have a purpose. If you dont have any rules, it falls into chaos where only the worse of humans thrive - see dayz.
So thats why sandboxes dont work. Lack of purpose. Emptiness of soul when you have nothing to achieve. When theres noone telling you "YOU CANT DO THAT" it wont fire the human spirit, rules and limitations are the spark of "just you wait btch". Thats what motivates a human mind, the challenge. Not getting into a game and saying "you can do whatever, bye".
@Jermzy - if you're looking for good pvp in mmorpgs you're just wrong. An rpg is not about pvp, never was, never should be the main focus of an rpg game. RPGs were always about an adventure of beating the odds against a DM - on a computer game, the DM is the dev and you're the challenger, so go solo, or grab your team and go fight against it. An RPG its about team-play to accomplish something (you know, the thief brings the lockpick, the dwarf brings the axe, the mage brings the mind control and the damage against what the physical cant touch, etc etc). You have no idea what an RPG is.
Also, you can have great sandbox games without PvP, as it isn't a sandbox mechanic. It's something you can add to a sandbox game.
Sandbox games should be left to smaller servers with different rule sets.