I tend to dislike games for their lack of complexity. Lack of complexity in character builds means lack of diversity and lack of individuality. And I like to a) experiment with different builds and b) to not play a character that is the exact copy of someone else's. For me my next mmo has to have a complexity level similar to ddo at least.
Do you people really feel like testing yourself against some complex learning problem every minute of every day? Of course not. Are you averse to doing it occasionally, for fun? Nope.
A better question might be: Do complex learning problems actually exist in games that descended from Ultima? Or is the entire idea self-congratulatory egotism?
There are complex games. I don't believe any mmo ever made qualifies.
It depends on how the complexity is introduced, if It's not thrown at you right at the beginning, but rather spread out over time it can really enhance a game.
My biggest gripe with complexity is quitting a game and coming back after a few months, and having no idea what anything means and having to start over.
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
My problem with EVE is that it presents you with a whole lot of choices, but without either consulting a wiki or already having a solid fundamental understanding of the mechanics you have no idea what the results of those choices will be. The choices even from the very onset of the game are mostly designed for people that already understand the game, which is a pretty flawed design in my opinion.
EVE is a 100% sandbox, where you make your own choices and switch directions whenever you want. Miner, diplomat, soldier, leader, industrialist, PVE, PVP, you can do it whenever you want.
You have to find your own path, which is intended by design. Only now they are caving in to the themepark player with new designed tutorials.
You are obvious a themepark player, where you want your path laid out for you and explained to the point.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
Once again I have to use Vanilla World of Warcraft as my example.
They gave you three talent trees for each class that can fit your play style. From their you had even more variation to make yourself unique. As simple as this was, we had web sites that studied in detail different builds with thousands of mix and match possibilities.
The Rogue class comes to mind. I would pull my hair out trying to justify being stealthy when knowing dual dagger or dual swards dealt more damage. Yet I could absolutely destroy players with my stealth build......The possibilities were endless, same with all other classes.
Now this was back in 2003, what happened to mmos since ?
Dungeons and pulling.
Send the tank in ?......Shoot an arrow and bring the mob to you?.....The stubborn caster mob that holds its ground, easy pull them around a corner and they follow.
This was back in 2003, again what happened to mmos since ?
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
Really? I quit specifically because I felt I had mastered the game and it had nothing it could offer me. Eve is notoriously difficult to learn but very simple once you get into it.
It is hard for me to think someone hasn't mastered the game in 6 years. I've played it for 3 years and I thought I knew most of what I could know about the game after just one year. You must be playing for other reasons or you don't play that often.
An interesting phenomenon is how many people play EVE sometimes for years and yet never really grasp the full breadth of it or all of the concepts behind it.
They are basically ignorant of what they don't know, yet think they know it all.
While it is true, I play for a few hours a day, many people play all day, every day and would never claim to know it all.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I definitely want complex so I feel like i won the fight. The problem I have with recent game design is that I feel like the mechanics are boring. For example, you are given optimal rotations for each class which dont interact with other group members or the environment really other than damage. So each fight is cycle your rotations and thats it, you get different zones, different quests but you are always doing the same thing.
Ok I ve been playing skyforge recently but they all feel the same these days. So complexity comes down to figuring out optimal rotation, or reading it in a guide and then repeat forever.
I feel its the same with BnS and BD, you are just executing your thing who cares whats going on around you.
I guess the problem is that you are not reacting, maybe a bit of kiting now and then but thats as far as it goes.
The original street fighter 2 had about 10 moves per class but when I played it with against friends it was like a chess match.
Block, block, punch, sweep, haduuken, or whatever but you are constantly reacting and trying to predict, create an opening and then execute. Now its just execute, execute, execute and pretty animations
An interesting phenomenon is how many people play EVE sometimes for years and yet never really grasp the full breadth of it or all of the concepts behind it.
They are basically ignorant of what they don't know, yet think they know it all.
While it is true, I play for a few hours a day, many people play all day, every day and would never claim to know it all.
Because they know better.
Its OK, we all learn at different rates. No need to get upset.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
An interesting phenomenon is how many people play EVE sometimes for years and yet never really grasp the full breadth of it or all of the concepts behind it.
They are basically ignorant of what they don't know, yet think they know it all.
While it is true, I play for a few hours a day, many people play all day, every day and would never claim to know it all.
Because they know better.
Its OK, we all learn at different rates. No need to get upset.
If this type of attitude gets you through the day and helps you sleep better at night more power to you.
*shuffles the hair on top of Quirhid's head while smiling out of amusement.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
My problem with EVE is that it presents you with a whole lot of choices, but without either consulting a wiki or already having a solid fundamental understanding of the mechanics you have no idea what the results of those choices will be. The choices even from the very onset of the game are mostly designed for people that already understand the game, which is a pretty flawed design in my opinion.
EVE is a 100% sandbox, where you make your own choices and switch directions whenever you want. Miner, diplomat, soldier, leader, industrialist, PVE, PVP, you can do it whenever you want.
You have to find your own path, which is intended by design. Only now they are caving in to the themepark player with new designed tutorials.
You are obvious a themepark player, where you want your path laid out for you and explained to the point.
Actually I would be more of a sandbox player. One of my favorite MMOs of all time is still Ultima Online.
When I say you have too many choices and not enough explanation of what they mean, I'm speaking mechanically. There are so many different skills that do so many different things, and deciding which ones are important to you is hard because a lot of them don't even make sense until you understand the mechanics of the game.
An interesting phenomenon is how many people play EVE sometimes for years and yet never really grasp the full breadth of it or all of the concepts behind it.
They are basically ignorant of what they don't know, yet think they know it all.
While it is true, I play for a few hours a day, many people play all day, every day and would never claim to know it all.
Because they know better.
Its OK, we all learn at different rates. No need to get upset.
If this type of attitude gets you through the day and helps you sleep better at night more power to you.
*shuffles the hair on top of Quirhid's head while smiling out of amusement.
Remember when your children were 16 and they thought they knew everything and their parents were idiots? Then they got older and increasingly realized their parents were freaking brilliant.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
It depends how much work is put into presenting complexity. A complex game that eases it's audience in to truly deep mechanics, will have a lot different result than one that just kinda throws you into their world with no real help in understanding how things work.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Kind of the wrong place to ask that question. But if you look at the masses and not people that post on game sites,then the answer is yes. The most popular mmo's have fun and easy combat systems. Its why wow after 11 years still has 5 million subs. Games like Wildstar and the Secret World have really great looking game worlds but according to the masses crappy combat systems. Sure people here may like them but they are far from popular games. A game has to have a fun easy combat system. Its what you do most of the time in any game. Its why Asian mmo's are taking off now. I know so many people that haven't played an mmo in a long time but they can't wait for Blade and Soul because the combat looks fun.
An interesting phenomenon is how many people play EVE sometimes for years and yet never really grasp the full breadth of it or all of the concepts behind it.
They are basically ignorant of what they don't know, yet think they know it all.
While it is true, I play for a few hours a day, many people play all day, every day and would never claim to know it all.
Because they know better.
Its OK, we all learn at different rates. No need to get upset.
If this type of attitude gets you through the day and helps you sleep better at night more power to you.
*shuffles the hair on top of Quirhid's head while smiling out of amusement.
Remember when your children were 16 and they thought they knew everything and their parents were idiots? Then they got older and increasingly realized their parents were freaking brilliant.
Indeed.
This says everything that needs to be said.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
I think some people do not like complexity in video games because they feel the devs will eventually "dumb" the content down to drawn in more players. For example, multiple raid modes. There are those that enjoy the challenge of doing harder and harder content but then there are those that enjoy only doing the bare minimum because the higher difficulties either dont feel worth it or they might thing the current content will only be eclipsed by something else in 3-6 months, which they might be okay with if they do not play the game on a regular basis.
Some people confuse complexity with tedium. Complexity, difficulty, depth, all those elements do NOT require tedium. And it's tedium most people dislike (except the addicts with OCD of course).
For instance, some people here seem to think EQ1 was complex and difficult notably because it had forced grouping and it took ages to reach max level. There was nothing difficult there, it was just tedious, time wasting mechanics.
Well you could have always played by yourself except the game was hard and you had to group for almost every class.....You obviously never went on 72 man raids or did anything difficult in the game.
I like games which offer a lot of meaningful choice and require some degree of thought and learning (I miss games that actually came with written manuals you would have to read before playing). You can have simple games which do this but it is a lot easier to make a complex game which does it so that's what I tend to prefer.
An interesting phenomenon is how many people play EVE sometimes for years and yet never really grasp the full breadth of it or all of the concepts behind it.
They are basically ignorant of what they don't know, yet think they know it all.
While it is true, I play for a few hours a day, many people play all day, every day and would never claim to know it all.
Because they know better.
Its OK, we all learn at different rates. No need to get upset.
If this type of attitude gets you through the day and helps you sleep better at night more power to you.
*shuffles the hair on top of Quirhid's head while smiling out of amusement.
Remember when your children were 16 and they thought they knew everything and their parents were idiots? Then they got older and increasingly realized their parents were freaking brilliant.
Indeed.
This says everything that needs to be said.
Some people never get to the top no matter how much they play. And some people get there faster than others.
At one point in Eve we had an FC in the FC team whose win% was ZERO when engaging with fleets roughly of our size and power, yet he was still one of the most active FCs at the time (oddly, I was the only one keeping stats on our FCs). I was screaming at my screen when he made some of the dumbest moves you can possibly think of in the middle of a fight. And he did stupid things repeatedly. Enough so that I started to boycott his fleets and lobbied for his retirement within the FC team.
I think he also had something like 6+ years playing Eve too. He thought he was good and I'm sure he tried his best. But he didn't take feedback well and he didn't learn from his mistakes. And it was tough on his ego when players with less experience in Eve came in and instructed him on FCing. All in all, he got butthurt and left the alliance. And I couldn't have been happier. I'd rather take an inexperienced FC willing to learn than an experienced one set in his ways.
What all my time in Eve taught me was that no matter how long you've played - maybe even since the beginning - you might still be worse player than the guy who started just two months ago. I've actually seen this in action. I've seen too many guys who have had 2+ years of nullsec activity under their belt panic and do stupid shit in fleets yet guys who started just months ago, but were coached well were some of the best players in the fleet.
I know I'm not Elo Knight or anything (and I'm not saying he's the best, but he is very good), but fuck me if I'm gonna take shit from someone who only rides on the fact that his character is older than mine. I have no respect for Eve veterans. None unless they prove their skill. So I don't doubt you might have something to learn even after 6 years of playing Eve. Like I said, we learn at different rates. And some people never get there. But nothing says you can't know most of what there is to know about Eve within a year.
Eve is not this magical game which has endless amount of content, stuff to do and learn. If this were true, why couldn't we say this about any game? Counter Strike or Starcraft? You can always be better. Even if you're the number one player in that game, there's always ways you can improve. Always.
So maybe this is what you meant when you said even after 6 years of playing Eve you still have stuff to learn. But letting people believe that it takes years to master Eve is misleading.
Eve is notoriously hard at first, but nothing special in the end.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Too many people get confused when talking about complexity and depth by either thinking they are the same thing or that complexity leads to depth.
No. Like few people have already pointed out: Complexity is bad, depth is good. You want to minimize the former and maximize the latter. The holy grail of game design is to have a game which is easy to learn but hard to master.
I dunno, some feel EVE is overly complex, but I still enjoy it.
After 6 years of playing it, I'm far from achieving mastery, which is why I'm still with it.
My problem with EVE is that it presents you with a whole lot of choices, but without either consulting a wiki or already having a solid fundamental understanding of the mechanics you have no idea what the results of those choices will be. The choices even from the very onset of the game are mostly designed for people that already understand the game, which is a pretty flawed design in my opinion.
EVE is a 100% sandbox, where you make your own choices and switch directions whenever you want. Miner, diplomat, soldier, leader, industrialist, PVE, PVP, you can do it whenever you want.
You have to find your own path, which is intended by design. Only now they are caving in to the themepark player with new designed tutorials.
You are obvious a themepark player, where you want your path laid out for you and explained to the point.
My favorite types of games are open ended RPGs (Bethsoft games), or Space Sims (like the X series). Yet I have to agree that EVE does leave you to make critical decisions without really giving much indication where they will lead you as far as character build and ability goes.
This has nothing to do with being a themepark player, and everything to do with design choices. The X-series is guilty of that as well, although it's less of an issue as it's a SP game, and doesn't really have such a skill system, so it's quite hard to truly gimp yourself.
Finding your own path is one thing, a horrible interface as well as low quality presentation is another. Both EVE and the X series suffer from this, which drastically hurts their overall product. Those who really want to learn, will learn... The rest leave, for EVE that's not exactly good for business.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I think there are three different things that are getting discussed here:
1) Complexity - this refers purely to the variety of systems / mechanics / options in a game.
2) Accessibility - the amount of time it takes the average user to start enjoying and understanding the game
3) Depth - this is about emergent gameplay (different ways to play the same game)
So, do people leave games / get put off by complexity? I don't believe so, because ultimately, complexity just means more things to do. I think it far more likely that players are put off by lack of complexity.
The more common reason, I believe, is lack of accessibility. Developers in general are really bad at explaining games and providing tutorials. The more complex MMOs out there (typically sandboxes) are usually the least accessible, so the average user will quit before spending enough time learning the game in order to have fun.
With depth, this is determined by the skill of the designers and is one of the key things I feel has been missing from MMOs over the last 5 or so years. Most MMOs are complex (i.e. they have a lot of different systems and mechanics that interplay with each other) however, each system / mechanic is usually simple to learn. This results in minimal time to master the average MMO, but also the systems don't allow for emergent gameplay. You play the game the way the devs want you to play the game. Set classes. Set skills. Set mechanics. Set group setups. Set everything!
Currently Playing: WAR RoR - Spitt rr7X Black Orc | Scrotling rr6X Squig Herder | Scabrous rr4X Shaman
Comments
Lack of complexity in character builds means lack of diversity and lack of individuality.
And I like to a) experiment with different builds and b) to not play a character that is the exact copy of someone else's.
For me my next mmo has to have a complexity level similar to ddo at least.
I hate WoW and what it has done to the MMO genre.
Moods.
Do you people really feel like testing yourself against some complex learning problem every minute of every day? Of course not. Are you averse to doing it occasionally, for fun? Nope.
A better question might be: Do complex learning problems actually exist in games that descended from Ultima? Or is the entire idea self-congratulatory egotism?
There are complex games. I don't believe any mmo ever made qualifies.
My biggest gripe with complexity is quitting a game and coming back after a few months, and having no idea what anything means and having to start over.
:-)
Sway all day, butterfly flaps all the way!
Miner, diplomat, soldier, leader, industrialist, PVE, PVP, you can do it whenever you want.
You have to find your own path, which is intended by design.
Only now they are caving in to the themepark player with new designed tutorials.
You are obvious a themepark player, where you want your path laid out for you and explained to the point.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
You have complexity, and you have variety.
Some of both would be great.
Once again I have to use Vanilla World of Warcraft as my example.
They gave you three talent trees for each class that can fit your play style. From their you had even more variation to make yourself unique. As simple as this was, we had web sites that studied in detail different builds with thousands of mix and match possibilities.
The Rogue class comes to mind. I would pull my hair out trying to justify being stealthy when knowing dual dagger or dual swards dealt more damage. Yet I could absolutely destroy players with my stealth build......The possibilities were endless, same with all other classes.
Now this was back in 2003, what happened to mmos since ?
Dungeons and pulling.
Send the tank in ?......Shoot an arrow and bring the mob to you?.....The stubborn caster mob that holds its ground, easy pull them around a corner and they follow.
This was back in 2003, again what happened to mmos since ?
They are basically ignorant of what they don't know, yet think they know it all.
While it is true, I play for a few hours a day, many people play all day, every day and would never claim to know it all.
Because they know better.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Ok I ve been playing skyforge recently but they all feel the same these days. So complexity comes down to figuring out optimal rotation, or reading it in a guide and then repeat forever.
I feel its the same with BnS and BD, you are just executing your thing who cares whats going on around you.
I guess the problem is that you are not reacting, maybe a bit of kiting now and then but thats as far as it goes.
The original street fighter 2 had about 10 moves per class but when I played it with against friends it was like a chess match.
Block, block, punch, sweep, haduuken, or whatever but you are constantly reacting and trying to predict, create an opening and then execute. Now its just execute, execute, execute and pretty animations
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
*shuffles the hair on top of Quirhid's head while smiling out of amusement.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
When I say you have too many choices and not enough explanation of what they mean, I'm speaking mechanically. There are so many different skills that do so many different things, and deciding which ones are important to you is hard because a lot of them don't even make sense until you understand the mechanics of the game.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
(considerably pre-MMO.)
This says everything that needs to be said.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
"dislike" is such a vague word, in my case it would be "KILL IT WITH FIRE"
the most hardcore thing i ever did in gaming, was tanking a 45 min baron run
that experience made me quit high level content in that game
i spent the next 4 years rolling tons of low level alts on different servers
conclusion: as long , as it isnt part of the leveling content, i can live with it
At one point in Eve we had an FC in the FC team whose win% was ZERO when engaging with fleets roughly of our size and power, yet he was still one of the most active FCs at the time (oddly, I was the only one keeping stats on our FCs). I was screaming at my screen when he made some of the dumbest moves you can possibly think of in the middle of a fight. And he did stupid things repeatedly. Enough so that I started to boycott his fleets and lobbied for his retirement within the FC team.
I think he also had something like 6+ years playing Eve too. He thought he was good and I'm sure he tried his best. But he didn't take feedback well and he didn't learn from his mistakes. And it was tough on his ego when players with less experience in Eve came in and instructed him on FCing. All in all, he got butthurt and left the alliance. And I couldn't have been happier. I'd rather take an inexperienced FC willing to learn than an experienced one set in his ways.
What all my time in Eve taught me was that no matter how long you've played - maybe even since the beginning - you might still be worse player than the guy who started just two months ago. I've actually seen this in action. I've seen too many guys who have had 2+ years of nullsec activity under their belt panic and do stupid shit in fleets yet guys who started just months ago, but were coached well were some of the best players in the fleet.
I know I'm not Elo Knight or anything (and I'm not saying he's the best, but he is very good), but fuck me if I'm gonna take shit from someone who only rides on the fact that his character is older than mine. I have no respect for Eve veterans. None unless they prove their skill. So I don't doubt you might have something to learn even after 6 years of playing Eve. Like I said, we learn at different rates. And some people never get there. But nothing says you can't know most of what there is to know about Eve within a year.
Eve is not this magical game which has endless amount of content, stuff to do and learn. If this were true, why couldn't we say this about any game? Counter Strike or Starcraft? You can always be better. Even if you're the number one player in that game, there's always ways you can improve. Always.
So maybe this is what you meant when you said even after 6 years of playing Eve you still have stuff to learn. But letting people believe that it takes years to master Eve is misleading.
Eve is notoriously hard at first, but nothing special in the end.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
This has nothing to do with being a themepark player, and everything to do with design choices. The X-series is guilty of that as well, although it's less of an issue as it's a SP game, and doesn't really have such a skill system, so it's quite hard to truly gimp yourself.
Finding your own path is one thing, a horrible interface as well as low quality presentation is another. Both EVE and the X series suffer from this, which drastically hurts their overall product. Those who really want to learn, will learn... The rest leave, for EVE that's not exactly good for business.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
1) Complexity - this refers purely to the variety of systems / mechanics / options in a game.
2) Accessibility - the amount of time it takes the average user to start enjoying and understanding the game
3) Depth - this is about emergent gameplay (different ways to play the same game)
So, do people leave games / get put off by complexity? I don't believe so, because ultimately, complexity just means more things to do. I think it far more likely that players are put off by lack of complexity.
The more common reason, I believe, is lack of accessibility. Developers in general are really bad at explaining games and providing tutorials. The more complex MMOs out there (typically sandboxes) are usually the least accessible, so the average user will quit before spending enough time learning the game in order to have fun.
With depth, this is determined by the skill of the designers and is one of the key things I feel has been missing from MMOs over the last 5 or so years. Most MMOs are complex (i.e. they have a lot of different systems and mechanics that interplay with each other) however, each system / mechanic is usually simple to learn. This results in minimal time to master the average MMO, but also the systems don't allow for emergent gameplay. You play the game the way the devs want you to play the game. Set classes. Set skills. Set mechanics. Set group setups. Set everything!