Santa Lando here with some important ship-buying notifications.
To celebrate the holidays, we are selling a limited number of Idris-P AND Javelin, in batches, at six hour intervals.
The Javelin will be sold in a total 200 allotment keeping in line with the relative population growth and ship distribution since it's last sale. It will cost $2500.
The Idris-P will be sold in a total 120 allotment keeping in line with the relative population growth and ship distribution since it's last sale. It will cost $1250.
Of course, the Holiday Livestream will start tomorrow at 1100 PST (1900 UTC)
See you then! "
Don't miss. Let the F5 war begin!
CIG is indeed awesome. I doubt that they could give better gift for the support and patience of their backers. A true chance to get these incredible concepts so cheap. Specially after the Alpha 2.0 already showing the total capability to handle multiplayer capital ships smoothly... well... I guess?
...and it sold out in minutes...so what? People can buy whatever they fucking want.
Santa Lando here with some important ship-buying notifications.
To celebrate the holidays, we are selling a limited number of Idris-P AND Javelin, in batches, at six hour intervals.
The Javelin will be sold in a total 200 allotment keeping in line with the relative population growth and ship distribution since it's last sale. It will cost $2500.
The Idris-P will be sold in a total 120 allotment keeping in line with the relative population growth and ship distribution since it's last sale. It will cost $1250.
Of course, the Holiday Livestream will start tomorrow at 1100 PST (1900 UTC)
See you then! "
Don't miss. Let the F5 war begin!
CIG is indeed awesome. I doubt that they could give better gift for the support and patience of their backers. A true chance to get these incredible concepts so cheap. Specially after the Alpha 2.0 already showing the total capability to handle multiplayer capital ships smoothly... well... I guess?
...and it sold out in minutes...so what? People can buy whatever they fucking want.
A drug dealer would say the same to justify his business.
Good thing he's not the business analyst then. Im actually shocked you thought CR runs all the finance of his company, you talk about cloud minds yet you made that argument? This isn't a small business this is a massive company that spans over two countries. if his intensions are to run the company into the ground, then yeah, but 3 years still going so I don't think thats his plan.
It's noting to do with clouded minds or passion, some of use just don't see it as a big deal. Yes its crazy amounts, but there are people in the world who can drop that not problem, people pay thousands and millions for a watches, paintings, whatever they feel is worth their money, there are actually websites where you can actually jpegs for more money. At the end of the day i might think it's mad, but it doesn't affect me or you or anyone else.
This whole SC discussion is blown out of proportion for the sake of an argument tbh, some have good concerns, but most don't.
According with Roberts, only he and a few people know about the CIG financials. So, definitely is aware and is taking decisions about how these financials are spent. So, stating that he does not "runs the finance" is kind of silly.
"At the end of the day i might think it's mad, but it doesn't affect me or you or anyone else."
Of course affects you. A bad image of the company caused by the company's attitude, doing bad business, changes people's perception about anything that the company sells and in consequence, been a buyer or a buyer to be, the trend is that most of people will look to the game more badly than they would, or with a level of exigency that would be impossible for any company to achieve, and that can result in more disappointments and in the game surviving less time that it would if better decisions, not short-sighted or just limited to a whale point of view, were made.
Who knows what else will affect too, even the gameplay, these insane level of ship sales, and the continuity of the half-trues told by CIG, making excuses for fails or problems caused by CIG becoming a standard for them.
Good thing he's not the business analyst then. Im actually shocked you thought CR runs all the finance of his company, you talk about cloud minds yet you made that argument? This isn't a small business this is a massive company that spans over two countries. if his intensions are to run the company into the ground, then yeah, but 3 years still going so I don't think thats his plan.
It's noting to do with clouded minds or passion, some of use just don't see it as a big deal. Yes its crazy amounts, but there are people in the world who can drop that not problem, people pay thousands and millions for a watches, paintings, whatever they feel is worth their money, there are actually websites where you can actually jpegs for more money. At the end of the day i might think it's mad, but it doesn't affect me or you or anyone else.
This whole SC discussion is blown out of proportion for the sake of an argument tbh, some have good concerns, but most don't.
According with Roberts, only he and a few people know about the CIG financials. So, definitely is aware and is taking decisions about how these financials are spent. So, stating that he does not "runs the finance" is kind of silly.
"At the end of the day i might think it's mad, but it doesn't affect me or you or anyone else."
Of course affects you. A bad image of the company caused by the company's attitude, doing bad business, changes people's perception about anything that the company sells and in consequence, been a buyer or a buyer to be, the trend is that most of people will look to the game more badly than they would, or with a level of exigency that would be impossible for any company to achieve, and that can result in more disappointments and in the game surviving less time that it would if better decisions, not short-sighted or just limited to a whale point of view, were made.
Who knows what else will affect too, even the gameplay, these insane level of ship sales, and the continuity of the half-trues told by CIG, making excuses for fails or problems caused by CIG becoming a standard for them.
Yes, 6-months of controversy and yet there have been zero investigations into their financials, despite the fact that they have offices in 3 countries where their financials could be requested by the government or courts. Oh, also, I almost forgot about the law suit that Derek Smart was going to bring down upon CIG. How's that working out for you?
Again, same old argument, zero actual evidence of any wrong-doing. Shoot, zero PLAUSIBLE evidence of any wrong-doing. At least The Escapist article made me do a brake check. That is until it went up in glorious flames and they never followed-up.
Good thing he's not the business analyst then. Im actually shocked you thought CR runs all the finance of his company, you talk about cloud minds yet you made that argument? This isn't a small business this is a massive company that spans over two countries. if his intensions are to run the company into the ground, then yeah, but 3 years still going so I don't think thats his plan.
It's noting to do with clouded minds or passion, some of use just don't see it as a big deal. Yes its crazy amounts, but there are people in the world who can drop that not problem, people pay thousands and millions for a watches, paintings, whatever they feel is worth their money, there are actually websites where you can actually jpegs for more money. At the end of the day i might think it's mad, but it doesn't affect me or you or anyone else.
This whole SC discussion is blown out of proportion for the sake of an argument tbh, some have good concerns, but most don't.
According with Roberts, only he and a few people know about the CIG financials. So, definitely is aware and is taking decisions about how these financials are spent. So, stating that he does not "runs the finance" is kind of silly.
"At the end of the day i might think it's mad, but it doesn't affect me or you or anyone else."
Of course affects you. A bad image of the company caused by the company's attitude, doing bad business, changes people's perception about anything that the company sells and in consequence, been a buyer or a buyer to be, the trend is that most of people will look to the game more badly than they would, or with a level of exigency that would be impossible for any company to achieve, and that can result in more disappointments and in the game surviving less time that it would if better decisions, not short-sighted or just limited to a whale point of view, were made.
Who knows what else will affect too, even the gameplay, these insane level of ship sales, and the continuity of the half-trues told by CIG, making excuses for fails or problems caused by CIG becoming a standard for them.
Yes, 6-months of controversy and yet there have been zero investigations into their financials, despite the fact that they have offices in 3 countries where their financials could be requested by the government or courts. Oh, also, I almost forgot about the law suit that Derek Smart was going to bring down upon CIG. How's that working out for you?
Again, same old argument, zero actual evidence of any wrong-doing. Shoot, zero PLAUSIBLE evidence of any wrong-doing. At least The Escapist article made me do a brake check. That is until it went up in glorious flames and they never followed-up.
Don't forget CIG's threat to sue The Escapist as well that never went anywhere. There was no retraction of the article and no public apology so for what it's worth The Escapist felt strongly enough that they had good information that they where willing to stick to the story.
I personally find the timing of this massive Alpha kind of odd. It came out of the blue after the article and to me anyways feels very much like damage control. I don't know if CIG's financials are as bad as a lot of people say but it's hard to imagine the company being able to survive for long without constant incoming ship sales. I don't care how much cash they have in the bank their burn rate has to be pretty high just to maintain all those offices and employees not to mention active development work that requires large capital expenses. Sooner or later that burn rate is going to overtake ship sales and CIG is going to be forced to release a game. Will that game be in a playable state and have all the features promised at that time? I hope so but really have no idea if they can make it to the finish line or not at this point.
Yes, 6-months of controversy and yet there have been zero investigations into their financials, despite the fact that they have offices in 3 countries where their financials could be requested by the government or courts. Oh, also, I almost forgot about the law suit that Derek Smart was going to bring down upon CIG. How's that working out for you?
Again, same old argument, zero actual evidence of any wrong-doing. Shoot, zero PLAUSIBLE evidence of any wrong-doing. At least The Escapist article made me do a brake check. That is until it went up in glorious flames and they never followed-up.
Silly much? Lawsuits cost money and time. I bet that after passed the heat of the controversy and the war that became his life after the overreaction caused his first blog and the back and forth caused since then, he could have taken the conclusion that a lawsuit, from his initiative, would be worthless for the real objectives, which would be reveal the real Chris Roberts to people, due his attitude.
Essentially because Chris Roberts will win from this venture, regardless the end result. Even if paying fines in a federal court. Still CR would find a way to leave with tons of profit of this venture.
The other objective would be try to minimize the damage caused by the CIG attitude. But at this point, there is nothing that could really minimize such damage. The damage is already done. It's already a boat out of control, navigating in the South Pole and wishing to have luck of not facing an iceberg, with plenty of them ahead in the horizon and approaching. In other words, he does not need to do nothing more to people realize the destiny of all this and do not risk their money on this, or getting disappointed, angry enough to transfer their angry to the rest of the game industry or crowdfunding.
My bet, is that he realized that his part was done. The consumer is alerted, press changed the ton of just ignoring the situation and talking about hope and hope and hope. So there is no reason, from his interest, to spend his money for a cause that, in fact, it's only getting "fools" at this point (quotes in purpose, to imply his perception).
But the fact that he did not start himself a lawsuit, to claim that there is no wrong doings is more than silly.
Your talking about zero evidences of wrong doings is ridiculous. You clearly have no clue about advertising and contract laws to say something like that. But if your point was just The Escapist, employees accusations for Sandi's/Roberts behavior for example, there are evidences of that, instead "zero", since many of the accusations of the employees were corroborated by other articles with other interviews and even by the status of the project, contradictory statements of CIG or, the big irony, that own letter that CR answered to The Escapist is the proof of some of the points raised against him. Plenty of evidences that not all, but some accusations seems true, and for them, CR just produced excuses, and some were simply terrible, even lies which can be confirmed/proven.
But the own history of the project is full of wrong doings and you don't need "The Escapist" to tell you that. You just have to have basic comprehension level of marketing/ad laws, or contract laws, consumer rights, for example, and knowing a little of logic to associate to the scenario in place.
Do you ridicule someone who pays as much for a high performance car part as well? A hobby is a hobby, some people have that kind of money to spend and their hobbies.
Of course not, because they are buying an actual thing
For those who enjoyed the $2500 ship I have a slightly used London bridge for just $10000 if you are interested, just contact me via pm so we can close the deal.
Yes, 6-months of controversy and yet there have been zero investigations into their financials, despite the fact that they have offices in 3 countries where their financials could be requested by the government or courts. Oh, also, I almost forgot about the law suit that Derek Smart was going to bring down upon CIG. How's that working out for you?
Again, same old argument, zero actual evidence of any wrong-doing. Shoot, zero PLAUSIBLE evidence of any wrong-doing. At least The Escapist article made me do a brake check. That is until it went up in glorious flames and they never followed-up.
Silly much? Lawsuits cost money and time. I bet that after passed the heat of the controversy and the war that became his life after the overreaction caused his first blog and the back and forth caused since then, he could have taken the conclusion that a lawsuit, from his initiative, would be worthless for the real objectives, which would be reveal the real Chris Roberts to people, due his attitude.
Essentially because Chris Roberts will win from this venture, regardless the end result. Even if paying fines in a federal court. Still CR would find a way to leave with tons of profit of this venture.
The other objective would be try to minimize the damage caused by the CIG attitude. But at this point, there is nothing that could really minimize such damage. The damage is already done. It's already a boat out of control, navigating in the South Pole and wishing to have luck of not facing an iceberg, with plenty of them ahead in the horizon and approaching. In other words, he does not need to do nothing more to people realize the destiny of all this and do not risk their money on this, or getting disappointed, angry enough to transfer their angry to the rest of the game industry or crowdfunding.
My bet, is that he realized that his part was done. The consumer is alerted, press changed the ton of just ignoring the situation and talking about hope and hope and hope. So there is no reason, from his interest, to spend his money for a cause that, in fact, it's only getting "fools" at this point (quotes in purpose, to imply his perception).
But the fact that he did not start himself a lawsuit, to claim that there is no wrong doings is more than silly.
Your talking about zero evidences of wrong doings is ridiculous. You clearly have no clue about advertising and contract laws to say something like that. But if your point was just The Escapist, employees accusations for Sandi's/Roberts behavior for example, there are evidences of that, instead "zero", since many of the accusations of the employees were corroborated by other articles with other interviews and even by the status of the project, contradictory statements of CIG or, the big irony, that own letter that CR answered to The Escapist is the proof of some of the points raised against him. Plenty of evidences that not all, but some accusations seems true, and for them, CR just produced excuses, and some were simply terrible, even lies which can be confirmed/proven.
But the own history of the project is full of wrong doings and you don't need "The Escapist" to tell you that. You just have to have basic comprehension level of marketing/ad laws, or contract laws, consumer rights, for example, and knowing a little of logic to associate to the scenario in place.
I must have zero comprehension about anything then because I feel like I've been asking for logical answers forever with you and I've barely even been able to understand the sentences you're putting together, let alone comprehending what the point is that you're trying to get across.
All I'm saying is that there have been zero claims by anyone, even former employees, lodging complaints through actual government agencies. There have been no civil suits. There has been no action by the government, or the apparent government entity who is now filing law suits against KS scammers, and this is "apparently" the biggest one.
It doesn't take a whole lot of comprehension to understand those facts, and those are facts. Government agencies care very little about money, they only care about evidence. So if the evidence wasn't there to support a law suit, then obviously they wouldn't file a suit.
You can call people silly as much as you like, but "pot, meet kettle" cuz you have absolutely zero factual evidence, but loads of crazy speculation.
I have seen the ship walkthroughs and they at least have a level of detail that is simply unrivaled, inside and out.
So it might just be pixels.... But it is some very well crafted pixels.
Well... that's the point and that's the easy part to do when you are more worried to sell pixels than a working game.
Well wine to vinegar and all that. I honestly do not know what CR did yo you personally... Must have been really traumatizing.
Now i would challenge you to work with something creative... And then report back to me if you think your statement above has any bearing on reality.
Ofc they care about pushing pixels... that is how they keep the doors open and the lights on.... But if they did not care about the game they would have folded it up a looooooooooooong time ago. They would havew done a EA and just said "well this is it" and walked off. In fact to be honest i think the problem is the very opposite. There is to much care about the and what it will be (and can become.) so much so that it at times get in the way of completing the game.
It is like the Toreador staring at the perfection of the painting until the sun gets it.
Well wine to vinegar and all that. I honestly do not know what CR did yo you personally... Must have been really traumatizing.
Now i would challenge you to work with something creative... And then report back to me if you think your statement above has any bearing on reality.
Ofc they care about pushing pixels... that is how they keep the doors open and the lights on.... But if they did not care about the game they would have folded it up a looooooooooooong time ago. They would havew done a EA and just said "well this is it" and walked off. In fact to be honest i think the problem is the very opposite. There is to much care about the and what it will be (and can become.) so much so that it at times get in the way of completing the game.
It is like the Toreador staring at the perfection of the painting until the sun gets it.
Completely wrong. Why would they leave when theyre still able to sell 2500 ships?
Trust me theyll bleed another 50 million at least before this is over. Because time is money and they (and the sheep) will justify it as salaries or whatever. If theyre spending 30 mil on salaries (numbers I have seen quoted) then they havent made enough to pay people yet let alone produce the game. WHY they need to pay that much is another argument, but it gives them the ammunition to keep trying to 'raise' more money.
These guys I am sure expect to double that 100 million, and they more than likely expect not to have to produce anything more than they already have.
Now they might improve on their tech demo (that theyre trying to pas off as an alpha 2 product) to keep the charade going but its highly unlikely we will get anything more than that. Maybe a few more production videos and cut seen animations described as 'in game video'.
They wont stop selling ships until peopel stop buying them. The time when that happens is directly proportionate to the stupidity of humanity, so by that definiton they can do it forever.
The purpose of the higher stretch goals is to ensure that the game-as-described is finished in the two year time period."
Simple and practical analysis that would be made about this in any court of law of United States, which knows very well how the law is applied:
Is this true? Was the game finished in the two year time period, considering that the higher stretch goals were achieved, and not just them, but about 16 times that monetary goal was achieved?
If the answer, of course should be:
No.
No more questions. Because? Because the wrong doing is established. The company disrespected its legal responsibility of not doing Deceptive Advertising.
In case the answer was
Yes.
The reply would be "Please, provide us the link for the finished game that covers the description of Star Citizen, very well detailed in that advertising missive." and then it could be evaluated (in fact probably would be demonstrated, easily, by the own statements of Roberts that the game is not finished yet, at all)
So, not covering, it remains as false.
And please, do not come with but but but but the backers wanted, we did this or that... the judge won't listen. Excuses are ignored in these cases, because they can simply be lies and cannot be proven objectively.
Don't make me explain what is deceptive advertising... that would be the 100th time, I guess.
And if I know the MO of the advertisers of CIG, the next step after I proven one of them wrong by the 100th time, is tons of flags to this post, to claim that I am offending them, that I am harassing them and even the CIG female sexually and that I am attacking them personally, successfully calling the attention of a moderator, that for some reason will jump in the bandwagon, ban my account and delete my comments, so next time they can bring this tiresome false tale that "no evidence exists and never was brought. Who claim are dishonest and are all crazy. Roberts/Sandi/Lesnick are true victims."
The purpose of the higher stretch goals is to ensure that the game-as-described is finished in the two year time period."
Simple and practical analysis that would be made about this in any court of law of United States, which know very well how the law is applied.
Is this true? Was the game finished in the two year time period, considering that the higher stretch goals were achieved, and not just them, but about 16 times that goal was achieved?
If the answer is:
No.
That is wrong doing. Deceptive advertising.
If the answer is
Yes. Please, provide us the link for the finished game that covers the description of Star Citizen, very well detailed in that advertising missive.
If it does not cover, its false.
And please, does not come with but but but but, we did this or that... the judge won't listen. Excuses are ignored in these cases.
Well holy shit, launch a lawsuit then. File a complaint with the government agency.
The date quoted is an estimate. There is no legal recourse for backers if something misses a due date, as long as the project is still being worked on.
If you're looking to fry some fish, there are much, MUCH worse offenders than CR and CIG. There are actually people who were successfully funded, failed, and then launched ANOTHER Kickstarter for a DIFFERENT game when they should have been working on the first. There are others who have run MULTIPLE KS campaigns for the same game.
I'm really sorry, but the "well he said it would be delivered by 2014" is the most horrible argument ever and it would stand up like a wet noodle in court. There are plenty of feet that need to be held to the fire. There are plenty of people tarnishing crowd funding. Yet, you've decided to make it your mission to bring the game to justice which, despite questionable models, is actually progressing on a monthly basis. All the evidence is there in release notes. Go look! Seems like a productive venture to me.
The purpose of the higher stretch goals is to ensure that the game-as-described is finished in the two year time period."
Simple and practical analysis that would be made about this in any court of law of United States, which know very well how the law is applied.
Is this true? Was the game finished in the two year time period, considering that the higher stretch goals were achieved, and not just them, but about 16 times that goal was achieved?
If the answer is:
No.
That is wrong doing. Deceptive advertising.
If the answer is
Yes. Please, provide us the link for the finished game that covers the description of Star Citizen, very well detailed in that advertising missive.
If it does not cover, its false.
And please, does not come with but but but but, we did this or that... the judge won't listen. Excuses are ignored in these cases.
Well holy shit, launch a lawsuit then. File a complaint with the government agency.
The date quoted is an estimate. There is no legal recourse for backers if something misses a due date, as long as the project is still being worked on.
If you're looking to fry some fish, there are much, MUCH worse offenders than CR and CIG. There are actually people who were successfully funded, failed, and then launched ANOTHER Kickstarter for a DIFFERENT game when they should have been working on the first. There are others who have run MULTIPLE KS campaigns for the same game.
I'm really sorry, but the "well he said it would be delivered by 2014" is the most horrible argument ever and it would stand up like a wet noodle in court. There are plenty of feet that need to be held to the fire. There are plenty of people tarnishing crowd funding. Yet, you've decided to make it your mission to bring the game to justice which, despite questionable models, is actually progressing on a monthly basis. All the evidence is there in release notes. Go look! Seems like a productive venture to me.
As I said, the judge wouldn't listen to you. Playing "fairy tale courts" now that he would even listen to your talking about the word "estimate" well... you lost again. We are 1 year passed. Many years more to the game really to be accomplished. He did not say "I am going to deliver in 2 years". He said "gimme millions of dollars, 3 times what I asked for and the game is going to come out, fully and finished in 2 years". Can't you see the difference and the weight of one statement and the other?
Reports are just stuff that cannot be corroborated objectively, so that would be dismissed immediately. They could be true, but they could be also lies, or a lot of that at least, just puffery and approaches associated with keeping people tied to the project to sell more ships, since there is this obvious effect that as more they take longer, more money they make. So, that's the problem with this "proof" of yours. It has no value because can be easily dismissed. And judges has better things to do than going deep for such simple and obvious flaw of a company and disrespect to their own deal made.
But good luck on trying to claim that a veteran developer would "miss" a estimate delivery date in so many years. But hey man. A tip... Forget the "estimate" talking as a matter of defense. Because it has no value, in the moment that Chris Roberts stated, more than one time, that the reason for taking longer, is because he expanded the scope, right?
So, why you are talking about "estimates" when the own CEO of the company told publicly, basically, that pointed the finger to that estimate, to make another project?
Who said that the deal was to make the game without any ETA, just because its going to be better (according with the propaganda of course)? Even if they have this "good faith" to make something better, that they are working int he game, that is not the deal... see?
I have been very objective now, since you complained. You asked for it. And here I am, proving you wrong... again.
Ohh boy, SC is the gift that keeps on giving it seems.
A true Holiday gift would have been something along the lines of them NOT selling something new and crazy expensive for the game for a whole week, " just because them Holidays are expensive enough." Now THAT would have been something special, this? Same old as usual with a slightly modified price tag.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
It is a "gift" that only less than 1% of the backers can take advantage of. To me, it is essentially a terrible PR move which I am honestly surprised to see. They have, with the exception of the response to the Escapist article, had really solid PR and marketing up to this point.
If you're looking to fry some fish, there are much, MUCH worse offenders than CR and CIG. There are actually people who were successfully funded, failed, and then launched ANOTHER Kickstarter for a DIFFERENT game when they should have been working on the first. There are others who have run MULTIPLE KS campaigns for the same game.
Your logic is deeply flawed my friend. Using one event of the same type but greater severity to ignore a second event is not realistic. Let me give you an example, why waste effort with a rapist when there are murderers out there?
I'm not taking sides in your argument, I think both you girls are pretty.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Good thing he's not the business analyst then. Im actually shocked you thought CR runs all the finance of his company, you talk about cloud minds yet you made that argument? This isn't a small business this is a massive company that spans over two countries. if his intensions are to run the company into the ground, then yeah, but 3 years still going so I don't think thats his plan.
It's noting to do with clouded minds or passion, some of use just don't see it as a big deal. Yes its crazy amounts, but there are people in the world who can drop that not problem, people pay thousands and millions for a watches, paintings, whatever they feel is worth their money, there are actually websites where you can actually jpegs for more money. At the end of the day i might think it's mad, but it doesn't affect me or you or anyone else.
This whole SC discussion is blown out of proportion for the sake of an argument tbh, some have good concerns, but most don't.
According with Roberts, only he and a few people know about the CIG financials. So, definitely is aware and is taking decisions about how these financials are spent. So, stating that he does not "runs the finance" is kind of silly.
"At the end of the day i might think it's mad, but it doesn't affect me or you or anyone else."
Of course affects you. A bad image of the company caused by the company's attitude, doing bad business, changes people's perception about anything that the company sells and in consequence, been a buyer or a buyer to be, the trend is that most of people will look to the game more badly than they would, or with a level of exigency that would be impossible for any company to achieve, and that can result in more disappointments and in the game surviving less time that it would if better decisions, not short-sighted or just limited to a whale point of view, were made.
Who knows what else will affect too, even the gameplay, these insane level of ship sales, and the continuity of the half-trues told by CIG, making excuses for fails or problems caused by CIG becoming a standard for them.
Yes, 6-months of controversy and yet there have been zero investigations into their financials, despite the fact that they have offices in 3 countries where their financials could be requested by the government or courts. Oh, also, I almost forgot about the law suit that Derek Smart was going to bring down upon CIG. How's that working out for you?
Again, same old argument, zero actual evidence of any wrong-doing. Shoot, zero PLAUSIBLE evidence of any wrong-doing. At least The Escapist article made me do a brake check. That is until it went up in glorious flames and they never followed-up.
Don't forget CIG's threat to sue The Escapist as well that never went anywhere. There was no retraction of the article and no public apology so for what it's worth The Escapist felt strongly enough that they had good information that they where willing to stick to the story.
I personally find the timing of this massive Alpha kind of odd. It came out of the blue after the article and to me anyways feels very much like damage control. I don't know if CIG's financials are as bad as a lot of people say but it's hard to imagine the company being able to survive for long without constant incoming ship sales. I don't care how much cash they have in the bank their burn rate has to be pretty high just to maintain all those offices and employees not to mention active development work that requires large capital expenses. Sooner or later that burn rate is going to overtake ship sales and CIG is going to be forced to release a game. Will that game be in a playable state and have all the features promised at that time? I hope so but really have no idea if they can make it to the finish line or not at this point.
The finish line keeps moving to a later date by CR. So who knows how long it could take, heck it was suppose to be released by now and clearly the so called game is a long way off when you really look at what they have so far.
Also every time they have a sale it seems it sells out rather fast which (I know am about to be attacked for this) again seems a lot like a money laundering scheme.
But lets just ignore that. The fact remains and its public record, that Chris Roberts stated, more than one time, that the reason for taking longer, is because he expanded the scope, right?
The main part you missed out is the majority of the community, which seems no one her gives zero f**** about. This decision wasn't just because CR wanted it, it was a mutual agreement , they wanted a much better game than what he offered. Those who didn't like that idea where able to get a refund.
So all this talk of scam, broken promises and whatever else makes no sense if the ones who donate the money are the ones who wanted the changes. This is why I have been saying through out this debate people need to research much more deeper into this than just look what's on the surface or the debate will just go round in circles.
The main part you missed out is the majority of the community, which seems no one her gives zero f**** about. This decision wasn't just because CR wanted it, it was a mutual agreement , they wanted a much better game than what he offered. Those who didn't like that idea where able to get a refund.
Could you please point me to where the community made this mutual agreement? From my perspective it happened like this:
2012 - Chris gave a target year for release of 2014 2013 - Chris stated stretch goals would not delay release 2014/2015 - All of a sudden Chris starts saying the scope changed and the release year is now 2016
I could not find any stretch goal that stated if they reached it, the scope of the game would change and its release would be delayed.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Do we really need mile long quotes like this? Cant you guys edit the not-relevant stuff out?
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
But lets just ignore that. The fact remains and its public record, that Chris Roberts stated, more than one time, that the reason for taking longer, is because he expanded the scope, right?
The main part you missed out is the majority of the community, which seems no one her gives zero f**** about. This decision wasn't just because CR wanted it, it was a mutual agreement , they wanted a much better game than what he offered. Those who didn't like that idea where able to get a refund.
So all this talk of scam, broken promises and whatever else makes no sense if the ones who donate the money are the ones who wanted the changes. This is why I have been saying through out this debate people need to research much more deeper into this than just look what's on the surface or the debate will just go round in circles.
Nope. You claim that I missed something, but I didn't. You missed.
You are trying to claim that they made some poll that some people voted and between the voters, the majority voted for the continuity of additional stretch goals. The problems with this argument is that the deal was between the company and each individual backer. Others can't decided for you, if the company will throw their promises away, as a matter of choice. Inb4 that pathetic clause of the TOS be brought, a choice, a business choice, is not "unforeseen event" ok? In other words, the poll would be considered legit/valid/acceptable only if: a) Everyone voted, all the backers, not just a minority (that was the case); b) Zero votes expressing that wouldn't like the scope expanded OR in the statement of the poll the company made clear that would expand the game, change the deal as a reflex of that, and then, offering refunds for people who did not want to follow. The company didn't make anything like that. Instead, they made something even worst. In the description of the poll, they tried to convince people to vote YES and did not present any issue to lead people to vote in the No. In fact, they denied the issue when the doubts were raised, stating that the concerns were invalid, and that more money would, once again, to bring everything faster to the hands of the backers. And they have people voting No anyway. More than one. And did not offer the refund to those people. They just pretended that could do what they wanted and the consumer had no power. c) only backers voted, instead a poll that for example, allowed you to manipulate, creating additional accounts to make you point of view win. The polls made by Star Citizen always were able to be voted by accounts without pledge, in other words, non-backers (or fake/duplicate accounts). Worst than having a company breaking a deal because "others but you" want something, is they accepting non-backers to decide that they could breach a contract with people who paid them.
So, your argument is dead. Have any other?
Those who asked for refund were denied, always. They had to reply to the company and the company's reply is, if you did not see, hilarious in terms of demonstrating the bad faith of the company, denying their responsibilities and trying to dumb down the consumer about his rights, since was initiative of the company, in the first place, to breach the contract. Only after insistence, consumers have been able to get their refunds. And not all them. The judge will consider that an act of bad faith, that obvious tactic to keep some money from people, lying to people, misleading them even more than their advertising already had done. Want proof? Please, don't ask. Won't help you.
Instead, just accept that the company screwed and that there are, indeed, evidences, proof of wrong doings.
Now, about what you refer to "scam", I don't know what people meant when they are stating that. I think that it varies from person to person, so I am not going to comment about that.
"people need to research much more deeper into this" Yes. If you research to that objectively and without passion and this romance form of looking to games as if it was something special and different from other products/services provided by the market and under the scope of the laws, you will see that CIG is navigating in a ocean of icebergs without any control, attention and in high velocity. Good luck to them.
Comments
...and it sold out in minutes...so what? People can buy whatever they fucking want.
I have seen the ship walkthroughs and they at least have a level of detail that is simply unrivaled, inside and out.
So it might just be pixels.... But it is some very well crafted pixels.
This have been a good conversation
"At the end of the day i might think it's mad, but it doesn't affect me or you or anyone else."
Of course affects you. A bad image of the company caused by the company's attitude, doing bad business, changes people's perception about anything that the company sells and in consequence, been a buyer or a buyer to be, the trend is that most of people will look to the game more badly than they would, or with a level of exigency that would be impossible for any company to achieve, and that can result in more disappointments and in the game surviving less time that it would if better decisions, not short-sighted or just limited to a whale point of view, were made.
Who knows what else will affect too, even the gameplay, these insane level of ship sales, and the continuity of the half-trues told by CIG, making excuses for fails or problems caused by CIG becoming a standard for them.
Yes, 6-months of controversy and yet there have been zero investigations into their financials, despite the fact that they have offices in 3 countries where their financials could be requested by the government or courts. Oh, also, I almost forgot about the law suit that Derek Smart was going to bring down upon CIG. How's that working out for you?
Again, same old argument, zero actual evidence of any wrong-doing. Shoot, zero PLAUSIBLE evidence of any wrong-doing. At least The Escapist article made me do a brake check. That is until it went up in glorious flames and they never followed-up.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I personally find the timing of this massive Alpha kind of odd. It came out of the blue after the article and to me anyways feels very much like damage control. I don't know if CIG's financials are as bad as a lot of people say but it's hard to imagine the company being able to survive for long without constant incoming ship sales. I don't care how much cash they have in the bank their burn rate has to be pretty high just to maintain all those offices and employees not to mention active development work that requires large capital expenses. Sooner or later that burn rate is going to overtake ship sales and CIG is going to be forced to release a game. Will that game be in a playable state and have all the features promised at that time? I hope so but really have no idea if they can make it to the finish line or not at this point.
Essentially because Chris Roberts will win from this venture, regardless the end result. Even if paying fines in a federal court. Still CR would find a way to leave with tons of profit of this venture.
The other objective would be try to minimize the damage caused by the CIG attitude. But at this point, there is nothing that could really minimize such damage. The damage is already done. It's already a boat out of control, navigating in the South Pole and wishing to have luck of not facing an iceberg, with plenty of them ahead in the horizon and approaching. In other words, he does not need to do nothing more to people realize the destiny of all this and do not risk their money on this, or getting disappointed, angry enough to transfer their angry to the rest of the game industry or crowdfunding.
My bet, is that he realized that his part was done. The consumer is alerted, press changed the ton of just ignoring the situation and talking about hope and hope and hope. So there is no reason, from his interest, to spend his money for a cause that, in fact, it's only getting "fools" at this point (quotes in purpose, to imply his perception).
But the fact that he did not start himself a lawsuit, to claim that there is no wrong doings is more than silly.
Your talking about zero evidences of wrong doings is ridiculous. You clearly have no clue about advertising and contract laws to say something like that. But if your point was just The Escapist, employees accusations for Sandi's/Roberts behavior for example, there are evidences of that, instead "zero", since many of the accusations of the employees were corroborated by other articles with other interviews and even by the status of the project, contradictory statements of CIG or, the big irony, that own letter that CR answered to The Escapist is the proof of some of the points raised against him. Plenty of evidences that not all, but some accusations seems true, and for them, CR just produced excuses, and some were simply terrible, even lies which can be confirmed/proven.
But the own history of the project is full of wrong doings and you don't need "The Escapist" to tell you that. You just have to have basic comprehension level of marketing/ad laws, or contract laws, consumer rights, for example, and knowing a little of logic to associate to the scenario in place.
want 7 free days of playing? Try this
http://www.swtor.com/r/ZptVnY
I must have zero comprehension about anything then because I feel like I've been asking for logical answers forever with you and I've barely even been able to understand the sentences you're putting together, let alone comprehending what the point is that you're trying to get across.
All I'm saying is that there have been zero claims by anyone, even former employees, lodging complaints through actual government agencies. There have been no civil suits. There has been no action by the government, or the apparent government entity who is now filing law suits against KS scammers, and this is "apparently" the biggest one.
It doesn't take a whole lot of comprehension to understand those facts, and those are facts. Government agencies care very little about money, they only care about evidence. So if the evidence wasn't there to support a law suit, then obviously they wouldn't file a suit.
You can call people silly as much as you like, but "pot, meet kettle" cuz you have absolutely zero factual evidence, but loads of crazy speculation.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Now i would challenge you to work with something creative... And then report back to me if you think your statement above has any bearing on reality.
Ofc they care about pushing pixels... that is how they keep the doors open and the lights on.... But if they did not care about the game they would have folded it up a looooooooooooong time ago. They would havew done a EA and just said "well this is it" and walked off. In fact to be honest i think the problem is the very opposite. There is to much care about the and what it will be (and can become.) so much so that it at times get in the way of completing the game.
It is like the Toreador staring at the perfection of the painting until the sun gets it.
This have been a good conversation
Trust me theyll bleed another 50 million at least before this is over. Because time is money and they (and the sheep) will justify it as salaries or whatever. If theyre spending 30 mil on salaries (numbers I have seen quoted) then they havent made enough to pay people yet let alone produce the game. WHY they need to pay that much is another argument, but it gives them the ammunition to keep trying to 'raise' more money.
These guys I am sure expect to double that 100 million, and they more than likely expect not to have to produce anything more than they already have.
Now they might improve on their tech demo (that theyre trying to pas off as an alpha 2 product) to keep the charade going but its highly unlikely we will get anything more than that. Maybe a few more production videos and cut seen animations described as 'in game video'.
They wont stop selling ships until peopel stop buying them. The time when that happens is directly proportionate to the stupidity of humanity, so by that definiton they can do it forever.
In Oct 2012, Chris Roberts wrote and I quote:
"Can you explain the stretch goals?
The purpose of the higher stretch goals is to ensure that the game-as-described is finished in the two year time period."
Is this true? Was the game finished in the two year time period, considering that the higher stretch goals were achieved, and not just them, but about 16 times that monetary goal was achieved?
If the answer, of course should be:
No.
No more questions. Because? Because the wrong doing is established. The company disrespected its legal responsibility of not doing Deceptive Advertising.
In case the answer was
Yes.
The reply would be "Please, provide us the link for the finished game that covers the description of Star Citizen, very well detailed in that advertising missive." and then it could be evaluated (in fact probably would be demonstrated, easily, by the own statements of Roberts that the game is not finished yet, at all)
So, not covering, it remains as false.
And please, do not come with but but but but the backers wanted, we did this or that... the judge won't listen. Excuses are ignored in these cases, because they can simply be lies and cannot be proven objectively.
Don't make me explain what is deceptive advertising... that would be the 100th time, I guess.
And if I know the MO of the advertisers of CIG, the next step after I proven one of them wrong by the 100th time, is tons of flags to this post, to claim that I am offending them, that I am harassing them and even the CIG female sexually and that I am attacking them personally, successfully calling the attention of a moderator, that for some reason will jump in the bandwagon, ban my account and delete my comments, so next time they can bring this tiresome false tale that "no evidence exists and never was brought. Who claim are dishonest and are all crazy. Roberts/Sandi/Lesnick are true victims."
Well holy shit, launch a lawsuit then. File a complaint with the government agency.
The date quoted is an estimate. There is no legal recourse for backers if something misses a due date, as long as the project is still being worked on.
If you're looking to fry some fish, there are much, MUCH worse offenders than CR and CIG. There are actually people who were successfully funded, failed, and then launched ANOTHER Kickstarter for a DIFFERENT game when they should have been working on the first. There are others who have run MULTIPLE KS campaigns for the same game.
I'm really sorry, but the "well he said it would be delivered by 2014" is the most horrible argument ever and it would stand up like a wet noodle in court. There are plenty of feet that need to be held to the fire. There are plenty of people tarnishing crowd funding. Yet, you've decided to make it your mission to bring the game to justice which, despite questionable models, is actually progressing on a monthly basis. All the evidence is there in release notes. Go look! Seems like a productive venture to me.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Reports are just stuff that cannot be corroborated objectively, so that would be dismissed immediately. They could be true, but they could be also lies, or a lot of that at least, just puffery and approaches associated with keeping people tied to the project to sell more ships, since there is this obvious effect that as more they take longer, more money they make. So, that's the problem with this "proof" of yours. It has no value because can be easily dismissed. And judges has better things to do than going deep for such simple and obvious flaw of a company and disrespect to their own deal made.
But good luck on trying to claim that a veteran developer would "miss" a estimate delivery date in so many years. But hey man. A tip... Forget the "estimate" talking as a matter of defense. Because it has no value, in the moment that Chris Roberts stated, more than one time, that the reason for taking longer, is because he expanded the scope, right?
So, why you are talking about "estimates" when the own CEO of the company told publicly, basically, that pointed the finger to that estimate, to make another project?
Who said that the deal was to make the game without any ETA, just because its going to be better (according with the propaganda of course)? Even if they have this "good faith" to make something better, that they are working int he game, that is not the deal... see?
I have been very objective now, since you complained. You asked for it. And here I am, proving you wrong... again.
A true Holiday gift would have been something along the lines of them NOT selling something new and crazy expensive for the game for a whole week, " just because them Holidays are expensive enough." Now THAT would have been something special, this? Same old as usual with a slightly modified price tag.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I'm not taking sides in your argument, I think both you girls are pretty.
Also every time they have a sale it seems it sells out rather fast which (I know am about to be attacked for this) again seems a lot like a money laundering scheme.
http://money.howstuffworks.com/money-laundering.htm
So it all really makes sense why they opened different companies in different country's.
Just keeps getting more weird by the week.
Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event
4/13/15 > ELE has been updated look for 16-04-13.
http://www.dereksmart.org/2016/04/star-citizen-the-ele/
Enjoy and know the truth always comes to light!
So all this talk of scam, broken promises and whatever else makes no sense if the ones who donate the money are the ones who wanted the changes. This is why I have been saying through out this debate people need to research much more deeper into this than just look what's on the surface or the debate will just go round in circles.
2012 - Chris gave a target year for release of 2014
2013 - Chris stated stretch goals would not delay release
2014/2015 - All of a sudden Chris starts saying the scope changed and the release year is now 2016
I could not find any stretch goal that stated if they reached it, the scope of the game would change and its release would be delayed.
You are trying to claim that they made some poll that some people voted and between the voters, the majority voted for the continuity of additional stretch goals. The problems with this argument is that the deal was between the company and each individual backer. Others can't decided for you, if the company will throw their promises away, as a matter of choice. Inb4 that pathetic clause of the TOS be brought, a choice, a business choice, is not "unforeseen event" ok?
In other words, the poll would be considered legit/valid/acceptable only if:
a) Everyone voted, all the backers, not just a minority (that was the case);
b) Zero votes expressing that wouldn't like the scope expanded OR in the statement of the poll the company made clear that would expand the game, change the deal as a reflex of that, and then, offering refunds for people who did not want to follow. The company didn't make anything like that. Instead, they made something even worst. In the description of the poll, they tried to convince people to vote YES and did not present any issue to lead people to vote in the No. In fact, they denied the issue when the doubts were raised, stating that the concerns were invalid, and that more money would, once again, to bring everything faster to the hands of the backers. And they have people voting No anyway. More than one. And did not offer the refund to those people. They just pretended that could do what they wanted and the consumer had no power.
c) only backers voted, instead a poll that for example, allowed you to manipulate, creating additional accounts to make you point of view win. The polls made by Star Citizen always were able to be voted by accounts without pledge, in other words, non-backers (or fake/duplicate accounts). Worst than having a company breaking a deal because "others but you" want something, is they accepting non-backers to decide that they could breach a contract with people who paid them.
So, your argument is dead. Have any other?
Those who asked for refund were denied, always. They had to reply to the company and the company's reply is, if you did not see, hilarious in terms of demonstrating the bad faith of the company, denying their responsibilities and trying to dumb down the consumer about his rights, since was initiative of the company, in the first place, to breach the contract. Only after insistence, consumers have been able to get their refunds. And not all them. The judge will consider that an act of bad faith, that obvious tactic to keep some money from people, lying to people, misleading them even more than their advertising already had done. Want proof? Please, don't ask. Won't help you.
Instead, just accept that the company screwed and that there are, indeed, evidences, proof of wrong doings.
Now, about what you refer to "scam", I don't know what people meant when they are stating that. I think that it varies from person to person, so I am not going to comment about that.
"people need to research much more deeper into this"
Yes. If you research to that objectively and without passion and this romance form of looking to games as if it was something special and different from other products/services provided by the market and under the scope of the laws, you will see that CIG is navigating in a ocean of icebergs without any control, attention and in high velocity. Good luck to them.