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My Issue with Pantheon
Adamantine
Member RarePosts: 5,094
My main issue with Pantheon is that it looks like the classes will be like EQ, not like in Vanguard.
Now dont get me wrong. I wont object to any good idea from other games, including EQ, introduced in this project, if they fit into the concept and make the game better.
But frankly if I wanted to play EQ - the original is still available, is it not ? But Vanguard is no longer up.
And Vanguard had a huge and important improvement over EQ in respect to the class design, and that was that classes havent been locked into one task only. In Vanguard, most classes had a primary task, at which they have been overall as good as other classes, and then they had secondary tasks that havent been unimportant either.
For example the Cleric, the class I played the most (and in the end got kinda sick of), you have been obviously healer as primary task, but you also could operate as an offtank, you had decent defenses and even a rescue, and you had a lot of abilities, like a debuff of the opponent, a group buff you could only put up after a critical hit, and so on.
In detail, it was something like this:
Warrior - tank, maximum dps output (later also dual weapons), various bardic (i.e. group buff) abilities
Paladin - tank, healer abilities (later specialized into weapon+shield)
Dread Knight - tank, necromatic / magic dps abilities (lifetap, fear, etc), later specced to twohanded weapons
Inquisitor - tank, psionic abilities - was never realized, I'm still curious how that one would have been, described as an anti-magic tank
Berserker - melee dps, rage abilities - also never realized, sadly
Rogue - melee dps (second top dps), dagger specialist, stealth, various trickery
Ranger - melee/ranged dps, small druidic style healing including speed buff, stealth, pet (but not real pet class)
Monk - special monk weapons, fake death, different specs (dragon/offense, harmonious/debuff, drunken/defense)
Bard - melee dps, group buffs (songs), debuffer and second best crowd control
Cleric - healer, spike heal+spike tank heal+heal over time, most general buffs, offtanking
Shaman - healer, spike heal with invul+reactive heals, variety of buffs including runspeed, three specs (bear/defense, wolf/melee dps+stealth, phoenix/magic)
Disciple - healer, high single target heals, monk weapons
Blood Mage - healer, lifetap heals, mage abilities
Sorcerer - magic dps (top dps), dispel / reflect magic, magic damage invuln
Druid - magic dps (top spike dps), nature themed, healing abilities, pets (but not real pet class)
Psionicist - magic dps, crowd control specialist
Necromancer - magic dps, broad selection of damage over time spells, pet class and summons (need corpses), fake death, raise dead (need ressources from corpses), fear/snare, transformation into undead at level 30 and various invulnerabilities
So everyone but Sorcerer (most of the time, anyway) and maybe also Rogue (havent played that one much, sadly) had secondary tasks.
I have played healers before and they've been really dull in other games. In Vanguard, they've been huge fun. Well except I got sick of Cleric in the end, still played him in groups though.
Well, thats my problem with Pantheon. The classes look a lot more like EQ than like Vanguard. But if I wanted to play EQ, I would simply have done that already, wouldnt I ?
Now dont get me wrong. I wont object to any good idea from other games, including EQ, introduced in this project, if they fit into the concept and make the game better.
But frankly if I wanted to play EQ - the original is still available, is it not ? But Vanguard is no longer up.
And Vanguard had a huge and important improvement over EQ in respect to the class design, and that was that classes havent been locked into one task only. In Vanguard, most classes had a primary task, at which they have been overall as good as other classes, and then they had secondary tasks that havent been unimportant either.
For example the Cleric, the class I played the most (and in the end got kinda sick of), you have been obviously healer as primary task, but you also could operate as an offtank, you had decent defenses and even a rescue, and you had a lot of abilities, like a debuff of the opponent, a group buff you could only put up after a critical hit, and so on.
In detail, it was something like this:
Warrior - tank, maximum dps output (later also dual weapons), various bardic (i.e. group buff) abilities
Paladin - tank, healer abilities (later specialized into weapon+shield)
Dread Knight - tank, necromatic / magic dps abilities (lifetap, fear, etc), later specced to twohanded weapons
Inquisitor - tank, psionic abilities - was never realized, I'm still curious how that one would have been, described as an anti-magic tank
Berserker - melee dps, rage abilities - also never realized, sadly
Rogue - melee dps (second top dps), dagger specialist, stealth, various trickery
Ranger - melee/ranged dps, small druidic style healing including speed buff, stealth, pet (but not real pet class)
Monk - special monk weapons, fake death, different specs (dragon/offense, harmonious/debuff, drunken/defense)
Bard - melee dps, group buffs (songs), debuffer and second best crowd control
Cleric - healer, spike heal+spike tank heal+heal over time, most general buffs, offtanking
Shaman - healer, spike heal with invul+reactive heals, variety of buffs including runspeed, three specs (bear/defense, wolf/melee dps+stealth, phoenix/magic)
Disciple - healer, high single target heals, monk weapons
Blood Mage - healer, lifetap heals, mage abilities
Sorcerer - magic dps (top dps), dispel / reflect magic, magic damage invuln
Druid - magic dps (top spike dps), nature themed, healing abilities, pets (but not real pet class)
Psionicist - magic dps, crowd control specialist
Necromancer - magic dps, broad selection of damage over time spells, pet class and summons (need corpses), fake death, raise dead (need ressources from corpses), fear/snare, transformation into undead at level 30 and various invulnerabilities
So everyone but Sorcerer (most of the time, anyway) and maybe also Rogue (havent played that one much, sadly) had secondary tasks.
I have played healers before and they've been really dull in other games. In Vanguard, they've been huge fun. Well except I got sick of Cleric in the end, still played him in groups though.
Well, thats my problem with Pantheon. The classes look a lot more like EQ than like Vanguard. But if I wanted to play EQ, I would simply have done that already, wouldnt I ?
Comments
I do agree Vanguard class concepts were better then EQ but that's about the only thing I would take from Vangaurd. EQ had far better battle mechanics. Vanguard combat was way too spammy, it felt more like EQ2 then EQ1. That 5 dot system made me want to vomit, as did the ease of solo play.
And giving clerics tanking abilities is everything that's wrong with MMO's today. Pick a role and be happy with it, if anyone rolls a Cleric expecting to tank they are pretty slow.
I absolutely loved Vanguard, but I'm not looking for a game just like it.
Also OP if that is the worst thing about the upcoming game....it should be a pretty damn good game.
However, I haven't really heard anything that makes me think they are leaning more towards EQ than Vanguard. Only that they want classes to maintain a very distinct identity, which I still think Vanguard had despite class' secondary roles. Its not like anyone was using a cleric as an off-tank in a major fight.
Though they say they want distinct classes and a greater interdependence, they are still going to have both item and ability based forms of class specialization.
The one thing that they have said they are leaning towards in Pantheon that is more like EQ, is the limitation on how many abilities you can have available to you at one time. That is something I am so ready to see again, because as someone said, VG was spammy (just like EQ2).
Healer, Tank, Dps, and CC.
I didn't play VG. I am like a majority - who saw promise, but didn't dive right in, and sure as hell didn't dip a toe in the water when all the talk of the bad launch was spread around.
Personally I just want to see roles that don't overlap. Obviously classes have to overlap, but I would like to see them be in their defined roles.
IMO one of the good balances in a game is the demand a class has in groups, in relation to their solo ability. Outside of unique circumstances, (ie: a cleric nuking undead) you'd have the most sought after classes for groups, being unable to solo well. As a result it became natural for them to try and form up.
Of course there are classes (mainly casters/ranged) that could do it well, but in most cases it took at least some basic skills. And for people to excel at it, it took skills at your class, knowing your mobs, knowing your zone, knowing the pathing, keeping attention to your current surroundings. Kiting was all and good, but run into another mob and you'd be gone.
I'm fine with blending classes from different games, as long as their role is defined.
sidenote: one thing people need to remember is the blending of classes, overlapping of skills/roles, etc. Will all be directly related to how the game is made: The difficulty of encounters, how many players are needed for a typical dungeon crawl, and obviously the cap on a group size. WoW pugs couldn't handle a 5 mob pull with the 5man groups and single target CC. Meanwhile an EQ enchanter would see it as a normal room pull.
I just can't wait!
I dont like the idea of every single critter turning into a five minute or even half hour epic battle though. Thats excessive.
I am not looking for "stronger interdependence" between players. I am perfectly fine with a game that focuses on group play, just like Vanguard did, but I dont like being completely useless when solo, i.e. being forced into group play. Especially not with mage and archer classes around which, thanks to kiting, solo quite easily, or worse tank classes like Paladin that can take on anything solo, even if comparably slowly.
Any game has solo play. You dont always get groups. Thats how it is. Are you supposed to log out when that happends or something ? I dont think so.
For example, in Vanguard there never was a shortage of healers. Because playing healers was big fun, they've been useful in group and you would be able to solo quite well, too. Well it depended a bit upon your choice of healer class, Disciple was unstoppable, Bear Shaman was on high levels possibly even better, Wolf apparently was also good, Cleric was unkillable but low in damage, Blood Mage was the opposite - quite fragile, no defense whatsoever, thankfully more hitpoints than other healers thanks to buffs and selfbuffs, but you needed constant massive selfhealing or you would be toast, but outright insane damage output for a healer - but Phoenix Shaman wasnt really soloable, as bad defenses as Blood Mage but much less hitpoints, an ability to kite but really only barely - the majority of spells was with a cast time and would slow you down - and the damage output was far behind what a Blood Mage could manage as well. But everyone except Phoenix Shaman was perfectly able to solo quite well.
In fact the only two classes that sucked solo have been Warrior and Monk. Monk got a little bit help on highest levels thanks to some lifeleech weapons, though, and they got Fake Death early so they would always get away if they got more than they could handle. Warrior only could handle a single three dot opponent, and needed to rest after, that was really excessive, considering what everybody else could do.
I just cant see myself playing a healer again if they suck as much as in other MMOs. Its just pure masochism. You cant solo anything and during groupplay, you have to sit down all the time to accelerate your mana regeneration. Its a super passive role. No thanks.
I'm not referring to wanting an easy game or an iwin button. It's hte exact opposite. My concern is if I'm limited to only a few tools, it'll get boring fast. Lack of diversity in gameplay is what's bad and what I'm wondernig about.
It's one thing to have lots of classes you can try and--cumulatively--lots of depth. It's another to have lots of depth in a particular class--in how it plays especially. It's the latter which is important to me.
It excellerated the dismantling of grouping up in MMO's. No need to have to invest in relationships and maintain a friendlist with your healers, tanks and dps: now you can just about invite anyone in and he/whe will switch to whatever role you require, enforcing the feeling of lone wolfing your way through the game. Hell you do not even have to say hello, just spam invite those waiting in front of the dungeon.
Currently playing browser games. Waiting for Albion Online, Citadel of Sorcery and Camelot Unchained.
Played: almost all MMO pre 2007
Cleric is a healer and minor undead DPS.
Druid is a healer and minor DPS.
Warrior is tank and minor DPS.
SK is tank and minor puller.
Paladin is tank and minor healer.
Ranger is DPS and minor tank.
etc
I liked vanguard, but its class system wasn't rigid enough for my taste. A bard is a pure puller in Everquest, in Vanguard I felt useless as a bard puller, I didn't have nearly enough pulling abilities and pulling was not nearly as important. I felt useless and pointless as a bard in Vanguard, I wasn't essential, the tank could pull mobs just fine too, that's not the case in EQ.
Put in another way, the amount of mistakes you could afford yourself in Vanguard was much higher.
The reason I stopped playing Vanguard, was because I felt useless as a bard, I want to have a well defined function. In EQ that is pulling and utility, I am very comfortable in that well defined role.
The day I stopped playing Vanguard was after our group changed tanks, and the new tank decided I didn't need to pull anymore because rushing all the mobs in the dungeon was faster, and he told me CC'ing mobs was a waste of time. That is when I quit, it made me feel useless, I was just there to melee and keep quiet, because the game was too easy, and the classes not defined enough, that CC and Pulling was not a requirement.
The sad thing was he was right, we were faster rushing mobs instead of using pulling tactics and CC. My friend told me we would find another tank, but we both stopped playing, but we both still play EQ. It did not sit right with me that Vanguard didn't offer me the chance to excel, it didn't offer me the chance to use my abilities to its fullest, using my skill to its fullest actually was a waste of time.
If in Everquest a stubborn tank decided they wanted to rush mobs, we would let him, he would pull 10 adds and die. We would tell him to let the puller pull or not get a rezz. Under most circumstances, you are not allowed to just rush mobs in Everquest, you are severely punished if you do. Exceptions would be having very rigid CC like an enchanter or a very overpowered tank. That was not the case in Vanguard, you were granted a very large margin of error in Vanguard, classes were very watered down compared to EQ that has very specific class roles and very specific content tailored to those roles.
The classes also happen to be the only thing good about Vanguard so I'm perfectly fine with Pantheon ignoring that game altogether. The VG fanboi's will rage but that's only like 50 ppl so uhhh.......who cares?
I guess I was a Vanguard fanboi, but I'm not really raging. However I will say this.
Healers were good at soloing, that's true. Problem is Vanguard NO ONE CAN SOLO MUCH. Therefore, they can fill two rolls, in some cases three
Pantheon, will be the same
Vanguard
Hay, I have 10 minuets before work so I have time to talk about the 50 ppl crack
Here is how that played out. This is a fact, I've proved it using the social panel for population, and had done it for at least a year.
Post bad launch, and after SOE took it over is when I jumped in.
The population was always low, and stayed low. HOWEVER, for at least the year I studied it. Nightly people would start but quit shortly after because of the low population. This went on every night !..Keeping the population low all the time.
Being social, I talked to many of them. Same answer " I'll be quitting soon, population is too low ".
SOE always had an advertising problem. They never found it beneficial to advertise unless they were launching an expiation. Then they would pretend they had a new game. Even that wasn't very much.
I'm shocked that you think people would actually believe what you are saying. I'm sure that most don't.
My issue with Pantheon is simply that I fear they go too group centric. One of the biggest flaws in eq was that you could spend considerably amount of time waiting for a group opening for your class to be needed, and if you were not a solo class and in range of something to solo, this would be dead time with nothing to do.
This WILL NOT work in 2016! Maybe a few hardcore p99 purists (whom I know are very vocal here) can accept this, but most will not; not even eq vets, because times are different now, they (we) for good or for worse have played other games since then and it has changed how we percieve fun.
Turning lfg on and advertising your awesomeness is not going to work without meaningful passtime stuff. Even the most social players can not always deal with grouping, not to mention the majority who are merely spot-social, sometimes wanting to group and sometimes to just relax. Only being able to be active if you find a group will not work in 2016. Niche is fine but in my opinion a game can't survive on 2k p99 purists. There has to be solo and meaningful alone time activities.
I am not saying make another solo centric themepark mmo, I am just saying embrace the world a little and be more open, 1999 was over 15 years ago why not try to be inviting to a newer crowd who are looking for a more meaningful game experience. Anyways that is my opinion.
"I am my connectome" https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HA7GwKXfJB0
P.S. You are all wrong!!!! FFXI had the best class system of any MMO ever!!!! (in the proud tradition of opinions are like assholes).
So in short you want the classes of DnD 3.5
Or was that the ones they had in V:SoH... If so... they just ripped DnD off. =P
This have been a good conversation
Getting enough people to play healers in EQ was a challenge, due to too much specializing and not being as fun and more frustrating and for many, thankless. One of the most common complaints about EQ healers was their penchant to stare at health bars and sitting on their asses all the time. There was a reason why there were far more shaman and druids than clerics in a game that demanded clerics, especially in the higher end game. Whatever systems they choose, they really need to keep class popularity in mind during the design process or we'll end up with yet another never ending looking for cleric fiasco.