I don't think many devs are playing to the strengths of the genre, the things an MMO can do that other games simply cannot. You've got persistent worlds that never change. They don't grow, they merely persist. At best the only change you'll see in an MMO is which group of players the NPCs in an area consider to be red based on who controls the area.
You've got massive amounts of people but half of them you can't even interact with except in combat most of the time, they're there in the world with you but you can't even speak with them. Then the devs drop in a bunch of systems to streamline or even replace the interactions you have with the players you can do more than fight with.
Instead of working with what they've got that nobody else does, MMO devs seem content with offering their own take on what other genres can do. I mean, what's the difference between queuing up for a match in a moba or joining a server in an FPS and entering a battleground in WoW? Is it that the lobby is Ironforge instead of a ui screen? It sure as shit isn't that I can bring my persistent character into a fight, because you don't join a bg with your character, you join as a basic template of your character with the gear you're wearing. My hunter in WoW had rocket boots and Drums of fear and free action potions until I entered an arena and had none of those things. That wasn't my character I was playing, that was Generic SV Hunter with X gear. I got to use my actual character sometimes against other players in combat, but the majority of it was in battlegrounds separate from the game itself. You couldn't spend all your time on Quel Danas, (unless you were Sleeve, I guess. Fuck you Sleeve). Why not just play league if that's the case?
MMO Devs also cheap out on a whole bunch of shit, just offering the bare minimum in terms of quest writing, enemy AI, combat systems or dungeon design because we've proven we'll accept those things done in ways that have't changed in a decade and a half. If someone gets part of it right, like ESO in quest writing or Blade and Soul with combat, they fuck up elsewhere. If I wanted to explore a dungeon, why wouldn't I boot up Legend of Grimrock or Examina over any MMO? There's no contest in the quality of dungeon design between an actual dungeon crawler and an MMO. If I want to fight some crazy creatures, why pick anything with hotbar combat over a souls game? If I want story, why not play Alan Wake over collecting bear asses?
TL;DR MMOs don't play to the strengths they have over any other genre and fail to do as well with the things other genres also provide.
Because people keep feeding company money when they rehash/modify the textures and graphics of WoW and release it as a standalone title.
The genre fell stagnant in this theme park mold, so people got bored and left the scene. The ones that havent complain about every Themepark coming out, but at the same time bash anything different from the trinity system they were raised on. Kinda a catch 22.
I don't think many devs are playing to the strengths of the genre, the things an MMO can do that other games simply cannot.
That would be because they've done it the same way for so long, they don't realize there's another way. It's a production line, not R&D... production is all about getting the product out as fast as possible for the least cost. R&D is a money and time sink. Go figure why the preponderance continue to do it the way they always have rather than take another route... I include every kick starter out there among the production line group. Every time someone mentions bringing back the old, it doesn't mean going back to the drawing board, it means rehashing that which has been done before. No R&D involved in copying the past.
The simplest answer: The current game making formula is wrong.
Don't give me any of the "Market over-saturation" or "Dying Genre" bullshit. MMORPGs exist in the realm of entertainment and there can never be enough entertainment. If that statement wasn't true, we would all be watching the 26th season of Friends along with the who-knows-what season of Seinfeld.
The MMORPG market had great early success during "The Golden Years" and it has led to a large number of copy cats and similar games (Look at CSI on TV and all of its splinter shows, hell look at how many crime shows got their step off of CSI in the first place!) Add that into a risk adverse market since the 2008 crash and we're in the boat that we have today.
The reason why we aren't seeing a new crop of MMORPGs coming up to fill the gaps of the old giants, is because of the natural risk-avoidance that big entertainment companies have. They don't want to gamble on a 50% return for a hit product. They want a reasonably assured 5-15% return - which in turn stifles innovation.
If it's dying because as you say it, it's simply milking money, then doesn't that mean that not only the mmo genre but our whole society is dying too?=_= Seriously, don't make the rotten apples become the flag bearer and symbol of the MMO genre then say the genre is dying.
I see that you could see the connection (lol, mind the pun). If the objectives of the business is simply to produce money, it will inevitably go down that gloomy fate.
But, IMO, a game is an interactive entertainment, in which a players decision in the game can affect the progression of the entertainment. You could play poker with your friends to kill time. But if you only keep playing poker all the time, you will eventually got bored. You need something fresh to add to it, maybe include money (to up the suspense of winning or losing), maybe an alcohol can be included (for grownups), or stripXXX your clothes (more adult theme...), for example.
I am not againts company making profit, but its more like the priority: 1. Making money via games (focus on ROI, minimizing the risk of lost). vs 2. Making games that sells (focus on the games, money 2nd).
Didn't read the link, just want to say that using the word dying in this context is really not giving the whole mmo genre justice and is certainly a very short sighted, pesimistic description of reality, and a poor choice of words. Esentially it is the same as saying "Why are all the people dying?" I shouldn't have to explain this further. Mmos age just like everything else in this world. My question is why shouldn't they? And who are you to decide a certain mmo under active development, with a heathy community is dying? What does it change if I tell YOU that you're dying? Will you die less because of it?
Failure to move with the times, such as using Oculus Rift.
VR is future of gaming. However, the MMORPG industry has been incredibly slow to adopt it.
There are numerous reasons for this including:
> Publishers who would rather copy successful games of the past, rather than risk adopting new technology. > Korean / Chinese developers. These cultures have a long history of copying (and pirating!) existing technology, rather than creating something new.
Elite Dangerous has a good future because it's the ONLY (!!!!) released AAA MMORPG that has adopted new technologies, including Oculus Rift.
Failure to move with the times, such as using Oculus Rift.
VR is future of gaming. However, the MMORPG industry has been incredibly slow to adopt it.
There are numerous reasons for this including:
> Publishers who would rather copy successful games of the past, rather than risk adopting new technology. > Korean / Chinese developers. These cultures have a long history of copying (and pirating!) existing technology, rather than creating something new.
Elite Dangerous has a good future because it's the ONLY (!!!!) released AAA MMORPG that has adopted new technologies, including Oculus Rift.
VR is not the future for AAA gaming until significant % of people still have nausea & other side effects when playing VR for more than 15 minutes in games where you walk & explore. Read Occulus Rift reviews, NDA is lifted, reviews are all over the place in last few days.
Failure to move with the times, such as using Oculus Rift.
VR is future of gaming. However, the MMORPG industry has been incredibly slow to adopt it.
There are numerous reasons for this including:
> Publishers who would rather copy successful games of the past, rather than risk adopting new technology. > Korean / Chinese developers. These cultures have a long history of copying (and pirating!) existing technology, rather than creating something new.
Elite Dangerous has a good future because it's the ONLY (!!!!) released AAA MMORPG that has adopted new technologies, including Oculus Rift.
VR is not the future for AAA gaming until significant % of people still have nausea & other side effects when playing VR for more than 15 minutes in games where you walk & explore. Read Occulus Rift reviews, NDA is lifted, reviews are all over the place in last few days.
Yeah if VR become console like only few games only works on this VR headset then it's going be hard to take off.
Failure to move with the times, such as using Oculus Rift.
VR is future of gaming. However, the MMORPG industry has been incredibly slow to adopt it.
There are numerous reasons for this including:
> Publishers who would rather copy successful games of the past, rather than risk adopting new technology. > Korean / Chinese developers. These cultures have a long history of copying (and pirating!) existing technology, rather than creating something new.
Elite Dangerous has a good future because it's the ONLY (!!!!) released AAA MMORPG that has adopted new technologies, including Oculus Rift.
VR is not the future for AAA gaming until significant % of people still have nausea & other side effects when playing VR for more than 15 minutes in games where you walk & explore. Read Occulus Rift reviews, NDA is lifted, reviews are all over the place in last few days.
No. Nausea used to be a problem with the older headsets (that did not have good head tracking).
The new version of Oculus Rift can be used indefinitely. The only caveat is to avoid games that involve very sudden and significant knocks that occur repeatedly.
Everybody on this thread is unanimous that MMORPGs are generally boring - there is a great deal of sameness.
New technologies, such as Oculus Rift, offer new experiences.
Don't be like the developers (such as EA) and resist change.
Failure to move with the times, such as using Oculus Rift.
VR is future of gaming. However, the MMORPG industry has been incredibly slow to adopt it.
There are numerous reasons for this including:
> Publishers who would rather copy successful games of the past, rather than risk adopting new technology. > Korean / Chinese developers. These cultures have a long history of copying (and pirating!) existing technology, rather than creating something new.
Elite Dangerous has a good future because it's the ONLY (!!!!) released AAA MMORPG that has adopted new technologies, including Oculus Rift.
VR is not the future for AAA gaming until significant % of people still have nausea & other side effects when playing VR for more than 15 minutes in games where you walk & explore. Read Occulus Rift reviews, NDA is lifted, reviews are all over the place in last few days.
Good point, I was looking at a Samsung VR demo the other day (powered by Occulus Rift) which I shared with my wife and in just 5 minutes she started getting nauseous.
Will really be a damper on VR if a significant portion of the gaming population suffers similarly.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Failure to move with the times, such as using Oculus Rift.
VR is future of gaming. However, the MMORPG industry has been incredibly slow to adopt it.
There are numerous reasons for this including:
> Publishers who would rather copy successful games of the past, rather than risk adopting new technology. > Korean / Chinese developers. These cultures have a long history of copying (and pirating!) existing technology, rather than creating something new.
Elite Dangerous has a good future because it's the ONLY (!!!!) released AAA MMORPG that has adopted new technologies, including Oculus Rift.
I have to disagree with the claim that VR is the future of gaming. It isn't. Although the occulus headset is light. It gets warm after 5 minutes and after 20 minutes the constant pressing on your face gets uncomfortable. Right now, at least for me personally I cannot play with occulus on for more than 20 minutes without wanting to take the thing off.
Failure to move with the times, such as using Oculus Rift.
VR is future of gaming. However, the MMORPG industry has been incredibly slow to adopt it.
There are numerous reasons for this including:
> Publishers who would rather copy successful games of the past, rather than risk adopting new technology. > Korean / Chinese developers. These cultures have a long history of copying (and pirating!) existing technology, rather than creating something new.
Elite Dangerous has a good future because it's the ONLY (!!!!) released AAA MMORPG that has adopted new technologies, including Oculus Rift.
VR is not the future for AAA gaming until significant % of people still have nausea & other side effects when playing VR for more than 15 minutes in games where you walk & explore. Read Occulus Rift reviews, NDA is lifted, reviews are all over the place in last few days.
No. Nausea used to be a problem with the older headsets (that did not have good head tracking).
The new version of Oculus Rift can be used indefinitely. The only caveat is to avoid games that involve very sudden and significant knocks that occur repeatedly.
Everybody on this thread is unanimous that MMORPGs are generally boring - there is a great deal of sameness.
New technologies, such as Oculus Rift, offer new experiences.
Don't be like the developers (such as EA) and resist change.
No. New Consumer Edition Occulus have not solved motion sickness problem. It is NOT about head tracking. In games in which there is significant disconnect between what your eyes see and what you body feels in terms of movement many people still get nauseus very fast.
Sure there are games which don't have this problem, games which have relatively static camera, but games like Skyrim in which you free-walk as character this problem still persist.
Maybe they will tackle this problem in future, maybe other VR sets will tackle it or maybe games just need to be written from ground up for VR specifically to tackle it. No idea, but until this happens...
IMO players are just tired of the same old grind. Pick a class/race combo. Grind to max level. Once you reach the max level then you have the gear grind, but to get the gear you'll have to grind dungeons. After you have the best gear the dungeons have to offer then you'll have to grind raids to get even better gear so you can take on the harder raids to get even better gear, and so on, until the expansion comes out then you're back to grinding gear and levels again. It's all one big grind and it's getting old.
What a glorious game we would have if we had the small, hardcore market that we had in say 04 while having all the technology and insight that we do now.
And cash shops / DLC had never been invented.
MMOs, almost like we youths that played them have grown up into practical things no longer fostered by passionate developers but by corporations trying to wring every last penny out in every conceivable way.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Haha, I just meant, in a parallel world where cash shops never existed. Wasn't saying 04 predated anything (however, I didn't know they were that old), just saying games were overall better (imo) back then.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug. 12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A cow that tries to pass itself off as a horse will fail.
A glorified single player game that tries to pass itself off as an MMO will fail.
Frankly, I haven't seen a true MMO release since DAOC, and really early EQ1 was a truer model than that.
See EVE, best virtual world/MMORPG ever created and still running strong.
Virtual world... where your avatar is still a spaceship, despite the changes made. EvE is a good game, but there are better virtual worlds, at least when it comes to character personification.
Well true, but that is of little importance to me, in game avatars are just tools, much like ships.
The real personification comes from the players themselves, how they conduct thenselves in the game world, and the impact their actions can have on both the game itself, and more importantly on other players.
Right now there is a war going on that impacts the entire EVE universe, and even non participants can't avoid the ripples from it.
All because one guy decided to declare an "imperium" a few months back, untold billions of isk is being destroyed, the economic impacts will be felt by all for months to come, and the political landscape changed forever.
Thats why I play MMORPGs, for the drama,not to have "fun" pushing buttons.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
A cow that tries to pass itself off as a horse will fail.
A glorified single player game that tries to pass itself off as an MMO will fail.
Frankly, I haven't seen a true MMO release since DAOC, and really early EQ1 was a truer model than that.
See EVE, best virtual world/MMORPG ever created and still running strong.
Virtual world... where your avatar is still a spaceship, despite the changes made. EvE is a good game, but there are better virtual worlds, at least when it comes to character personification.
Well true, but that is of little importance to me, in game avatars are just tools, much like ships.
The real personification comes from the players themselves, how they conduct thenselves in the game world, and the impact their actions can have on both the game itself, and more importantly on other players.
Right now there is a war going on that impacts the entire EVE universe, and even non participants can't avoid the ripples from it.
All because one guy decided to declare an "imperium" a few months back, untold billions of isk is being destroyed, the economic impacts will be felt by all for months to come, and the political landscape changed forever.
Thats why I play MMORPGs, for the drama,not to have "fun" pushing buttons.
MMORPG.com is virtually full of drama, no button pressing neccessary.
A glorified single player game that tries to pass itself off as an MMO will fail.
Really? Didn't The Division or The Destiny try to pass themselves off as MMOs?
Didn't both make tons of money?
Didn't EQ 1 keep folks paying $15/mo. long after single player games like Diablo 1, 2, and 3 fell out of favor?
Bad example.
I love EQ , favorite game of all time , but large amounts of people still play Diablo 2 , tons , and good lord , Diablo 3 has millions still playing it ,especially after RoS expansion.
in say 04 ... ...cash shops / DLC had never been invented.
Anarchy Online cash shop started in December 2004... Entropia Universe, released January 2003, relied heavily on real life cash transactions. The 4th Coming, 1999, was provided Free to Play by several Licensees with the ability to purchase a high level character. Darkspace, 2001, free to play with cash op. Ragnarok Online, 2003, same. Puzzle Pirates, 2003, same. Silkroad Online, 2004, same.
Just listing a few of the most known ones...
But you are right, F2P/Cash Shop really "exploded" approx. after 2004.
You forgot to mention that e.g. EQ1 had DLC initially every year then 6 monthly! So 2000 for the first. And since you could download it - or buy the xpac - it was DLC. Most other games e.g. DAoC, SWG had pretty regular paid DLC/xpacs as well (AC was the exception).
It was only in 2004 that "free" content was pushed as a "big thing" - initially by NCSoft. A year later they tried a different tack with GW1 which is - wait for it - exactly the same as that being used by Destiny, The Division and a host of other games, not just online games.
Comments
You've got massive amounts of people but half of them you can't even interact with except in combat most of the time, they're there in the world with you but you can't even speak with them. Then the devs drop in a bunch of systems to streamline or even replace the interactions you have with the players you can do more than fight with.
Instead of working with what they've got that nobody else does, MMO devs seem content with offering their own take on what other genres can do. I mean, what's the difference between queuing up for a match in a moba or joining a server in an FPS and entering a battleground in WoW? Is it that the lobby is Ironforge instead of a ui screen? It sure as shit isn't that I can bring my persistent character into a fight, because you don't join a bg with your character, you join as a basic template of your character with the gear you're wearing. My hunter in WoW had rocket boots and Drums of fear and free action potions until I entered an arena and had none of those things. That wasn't my character I was playing, that was Generic SV Hunter with X gear. I got to use my actual character sometimes against other players in combat, but the majority of it was in battlegrounds separate from the game itself. You couldn't spend all your time on Quel Danas, (unless you were Sleeve, I guess. Fuck you Sleeve). Why not just play league if that's the case?
MMO Devs also cheap out on a whole bunch of shit, just offering the bare minimum in terms of quest writing, enemy AI, combat systems or dungeon design because we've proven we'll accept those things done in ways that have't changed in a decade and a half. If someone gets part of it right, like ESO in quest writing or Blade and Soul with combat, they fuck up elsewhere. If I wanted to explore a dungeon, why wouldn't I boot up Legend of Grimrock or Examina over any MMO? There's no contest in the quality of dungeon design between an actual dungeon crawler and an MMO. If I want to fight some crazy creatures, why pick anything with hotbar combat over a souls game? If I want story, why not play Alan Wake over collecting bear asses?
TL;DR MMOs don't play to the strengths they have over any other genre and fail to do as well with the things other genres also provide.
The genre fell stagnant in this theme park mold, so people got bored and left the scene. The ones that havent complain about every Themepark coming out, but at the same time bash anything different from the trinity system they were raised on. Kinda a catch 22.
Don't give me any of the "Market over-saturation" or "Dying Genre" bullshit. MMORPGs exist in the realm of entertainment and there can never be enough entertainment. If that statement wasn't true, we would all be watching the 26th season of Friends along with the who-knows-what season of Seinfeld.
The MMORPG market had great early success during "The Golden Years" and it has led to a large number of copy cats and similar games (Look at CSI on TV and all of its splinter shows, hell look at how many crime shows got their step off of CSI in the first place!) Add that into a risk adverse market since the 2008 crash and we're in the boat that we have today.
The reason why we aren't seeing a new crop of MMORPGs coming up to fill the gaps of the old giants, is because of the natural risk-avoidance that big entertainment companies have. They don't want to gamble on a 50% return for a hit product. They want a reasonably assured 5-15% return - which in turn stifles innovation.
But, IMO, a game is an interactive entertainment, in which a players decision in the game can affect the progression of the entertainment. You could play poker with your friends to kill time. But if you only keep playing poker all the time, you will eventually got bored. You need something fresh to add to it, maybe include money (to up the suspense of winning or losing), maybe an alcohol can be included (for grownups), or stripXXX your clothes (more adult theme...), for example.
I am not againts company making profit, but its more like the priority:
1. Making money via games (focus on ROI, minimizing the risk of lost).
vs
2. Making games that sells (focus on the games, money 2nd).
"Why are all the MMO's Dying?"
Didn't read the link, just want to say that using the word dying in this context is really not giving the whole mmo genre justice and is certainly a very short sighted, pesimistic description of reality, and a poor choice of words. Esentially it is the same as saying "Why are all the people dying?" I shouldn't have to explain this further. Mmos age just like everything else in this world. My question is why shouldn't they? And who are you to decide a certain mmo under active development, with a heathy community is dying? What does it change if I tell YOU that you're dying? Will you die less because of it?
VR is future of gaming. However, the MMORPG industry has been incredibly slow to adopt it.
There are numerous reasons for this including:
> Publishers who would rather copy successful games of the past, rather than risk adopting new technology.
> Korean / Chinese developers. These cultures have a long history of copying (and pirating!) existing technology, rather than creating something new.
Elite Dangerous has a good future because it's the ONLY (!!!!) released AAA MMORPG that has adopted new technologies, including Oculus Rift.
No. Nausea used to be a problem with the older headsets (that did not have good head tracking).
The new version of Oculus Rift can be used indefinitely. The only caveat is to avoid games that involve very sudden and significant knocks that occur repeatedly.
Everybody on this thread is unanimous that MMORPGs are generally boring - there is a great deal of sameness.
New technologies, such as Oculus Rift, offer new experiences.
Don't be like the developers (such as EA) and resist change.
Will really be a damper on VR if a significant portion of the gaming population suffers similarly.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Sure there are games which don't have this problem, games which have relatively static camera, but games like Skyrim in which you free-walk as character this problem still persist.
Maybe they will tackle this problem in future, maybe other VR sets will tackle it or maybe games just need to be written from ground up for VR specifically to tackle it. No idea, but until this happens...
Played: EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, WAR, WoW, LoTRO, CoX, CO, GW2, FFXIV: ARR, AoC, Rift, TSW, SWTOR, TERA, BnS, ESO
What a glorious game we would have if we had the small, hardcore market that we had in say 04 while having all the technology and insight that we do now.
And cash shops / DLC had never been invented.
MMOs, almost like we youths that played them have grown up into practical things no longer fostered by passionate developers but by corporations trying to wring every last penny out in every conceivable way.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
Spec'ing properly is a gateway drug.
12 Million People have been meter spammed in heroics.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The real personification comes from the players themselves, how they conduct thenselves in the game world, and the impact their actions can have on both the game itself, and more importantly on other players.
Right now there is a war going on that impacts the entire EVE universe, and even non participants can't avoid the ripples from it.
All because one guy decided to declare an "imperium" a few months back, untold billions of isk is being destroyed, the economic impacts will be felt by all for months to come, and the political landscape changed forever.
Thats why I play MMORPGs, for the drama,not to have "fun" pushing buttons.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Didn't both make tons of money?
I love EQ , favorite game of all time , but large amounts of people still play Diablo 2 , tons , and good lord , Diablo 3 has millions still playing it ,especially after RoS expansion.
It was only in 2004 that "free" content was pushed as a "big thing" - initially by NCSoft. A year later they tried a different tack with GW1 which is - wait for it - exactly the same as that being used by Destiny, The Division and a host of other games, not just online games.
In fact, this report put D3 as the 5th most played PC game in 2015. EQ is no where to be seen, obviously.
https://visual.ly/most-played-pc-games-2015