I could try answering, in fact, I have spent the past hour trying to, lol. But at the end of the day I'm as non-plussed as you.
I'm glad you did ask though and that so many like minded people have come out of the woodwork and posted. I really was starting to think I was the only one, lol.
A long time ago, in a forum far, far away, somebody said "Nerf Smart People".
It was meant as a comment on the dev attitude to the squeaky wheelers who were getting uspet that some people in the game could do things that they couldn't do, becuase of choices they'd made and the consequences of those choices. But there y'go, many a true word is spoken in jest, eh.
Take care, all of you, and, here's hoping that someday there's a game that we can get back into and feel as much 'at home' as we used to in SWG.
To the OP, you say something very profound in the respect that we are taught what is wrong, but have built a society that has us do wrong to succeed. What is success? Is it a lot of money? If a person has every material possession that anyone could want, but laments every decision they ever made, are they truly successful? If a person has all of the medicine in the world but cannot heal himself and be well, do they have real wellness? Could it be that the term 'success' as defined by normal society isn't success at all? Maybe success is something simpler like happiness, wellness and fulfillment.
Perhaps something is missing and people attempt to fill this void through an online society. The problem is, real people play the game and normally their confidence level, their criminal tendencies, and their inadequacies and weaknesses still shine through. Inherently, an MMO is a place where you can be what you cannot in real life. The mousey nerd can escape his daily wedgies and become the bully. The woman who wishes to be beautiful can become the sensuous dancer and seducer of men. Are we really peering into a person's soul, or merely their desires?
Is it easier to find the person of your dreams online? Perhaps it is. Perhaps it does give us a barrier in which we can truly see the person inside and not how they appear on the surface. Is depending on this medium of communication as a means to see beyond these physical barriers we make for ourselves a necessity? Or, is the dependence on the virtual world diminishing our ability to learn for ourselves to push past these methods of crude judgment? Is it a crutch? Do we weaken ourselves or enrich ourselves in the virtual world, or do we do both at once?
The questions asked in this thread are very thought provoking and I am of the opinion that there will be many, many more people asking these very questions in the future.
True Neutral Half-Elf Ranger Mage Follower Of Silvanus
Originally posted by azhrarn So what REAL justification can a person raise to condemn virtual society, when it is a tool that extends both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know and perhaps even like other people?
I think the justification comes in the form of how you posed the question.
Its not reality. Its theatre. Theatre that average people like you and I can create and explore. To create our own plots and dramas. To pretend to be something that we are not, and to encounter others who portaray things they are not.
I thought that was what we were discussing originally when we were talking about living as an "alter ego," or living a "secret life." Because I don't want to be a female in real life. Nor do I want to be a smuggler in real life.
But because of places like SWG, I can be a female, or a smuggler, or anything else I would like to pretend to be. The great part about it is, I don't have to have my alter lives I experience in online games affect my real life.
Initially, I thought that was what you were saying too. Yet now, it seems as if you don't want to live an alternative life, with others who are playing alternative lives.
It seems that now you are saying you like the medium because it is good to, "extend, both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know, and perhaps even like other people."
So what is it? Do you like these games to create a shared fantasy? Or do we like these games because we want to meet the real people behind the fiction?
I understand the first one. I understand the second one.
But I don't understand how we can expect both, when players want either one or the other.
If I want to play a woman, or play a criminal, some people think its their right to ask whether I really am a woman, or ask what I do for a living.
To me, that's an unfair question to ask. Yet it is a question that we cannot help but ask, when we do this thing to get to know the person behind the character.
Because by asking questions about our lives behind the characters, we rob eachother of our shared fiction. Because if the female is found out to be male, or the jedi is found out to be a criminal on probation, its very hard, if not impossible, to ever view the female or the jedi in the same way.
No longer will the female dancer be viewed as a living character. She will be viewed as a "shim," or a man trying to deceive others into believing he is female. No longer will the jedi be viewed as an honorable personality. He will be viewed as some criminal on probation playing a jedi.
I understand why we are inquisitive about the player behind the character. Its only natural. Yes, It can lead to good things at times, but it does it at a cost. And the cost is that we can never go back to that innocent alternate fantasy. That masquerade that allows us to live and be treated as something else, which can be found best in online worlds.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I really don't care about knowing who Claude is, or who you are Azhrarn. Its not because either of you are bad people. You may, in fact, be good people to know "IRL." I also really don't want you knowing about me. Not because I am a bad person to know, and not because I am ashamed of myself. But because I really don't see the point.
What is more important to me, and more important when I played Galaxies, was that I played characters. Characters I worked hard to make interesting, believeable, and fun. Characters that would help facilitate the shared fiction of your characters, Claude and Azhrarn.
I think that's more valuable than finding out who we are, what we do, and figuring out later if we want anything to do with eachother. Because we really don't need online games to do that, do we?
What we do need online games for is to facilitate roleplay, make believe, and shared fiction. I don't need to go to online games to be treated as a motorcycle salesman by people that really don't need to know I am a motorcycle salesman. I want to be treated as a rodian bounty hunter from Lok, and treat you all like who you portray as well.
So what is it you and Claude want?
Do you play these games to portray characters, and be treated like characters?
Or do you play these games to get to know real people, and be treated as your real self, and not as the characters you play?
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
SOE does not care about the costumers that made SWG great; they just want more costumers and did not even ask the playing community what they want.
I mean look at the threads everywhere, there are many people that would go back and play if SOE gave us a pre-cu server, but that would prove that they where wrong launching the NGE and prolly will get some people fired; so that ain't gonna happen either.
The good news is I did some reading on future mmo's on this site and found that some of em are gonna use a system like the pre-cu SWG; I'm talking bout AFRICA and TRIALS OF ASCENCION.
Also VANGUARD looks like a very nice game to play; So SOE when these games launch I will never log in SWG again, it hurts, but you wanted it this way!!
Well I must say that I'm throughly and pleasantly astonished at the level of conversation that is occuring within this thread. I absolutely enjoyed reading it all and realizing that I am not alone in the way I feel. That is with the exception of the brainless fanboi trollers that can't leave a decent discussion alone without adding in their famous three word lines. Replies such as pirrg's are not wanted nor warranted. Go crawl back under the bridge from which you came.
To address the original question, I too have to point out (because I'm in the exact same situation) that the reason we feel the way we feel is due to closure. When I played EQ, EQ2, EVE, FFXI, MxO, PS, WW2O, RO and AO, I was able to experience closure. I grew [insert various reason] of the games and it was my decision to quit. Nothing in those games changed drastically...I simply grew [same reason as above] of playing them and just like others in this post, I never looked back.
For me, there are actually two games in which I never truly experienced closure; Star Wars Galaxies and Earth and Beyond. To this day I yearn to play SWG (pre-CU) and EnB again. I fully understand and accept the problems that both games had at the time I left them or was forced out (in the case of EnB). I have yet to find suitable replacements.
I completely agree with the poster that stated that our avatars are a part of us, a fragment. We channel our imagination, emotions and personality into our avatars. They are for all intents and purposes, a living digital entity (if you can wrap your head around that one) I miss my tall, white wookie master architect/smuggler. I miss the adventures I had with him. I miss the relaxation that playing him in the SWG universe gave me. The different sense of accomplishment that I can't gain here in real life. And because of that I feel as though I've lost a friend.
To everyone in this thread that have voiced how they feel, that have opened up their mind and hearts to help console one another, I salute you.
I also feel the need to address this "virtual sandbox" classification. As an older gamer and having seen the entire gambit of games that have come out since the early 80s, I will always gravitate towards the games that have a sandbox feeling. Why? Because they leave MUCH more up to the imagination and allow for a much much greater level of flexibility within the gaming environment. After playing nearly every MMO on the market I found somewhat interesting, I fear I will not have another game that I feel is worthy of my hard earned dollar until more sandbox games are made.
Gaming is my hobby and I want my proverbial paintbrushes back!
if all goes well, we get another sandbox experience soon®
I like SciFi the most, i am not really into fantasy games. I cant stand the 785th version of mage, troll, dwarv and elf casting "lightning thunder" or "necro nebula".
But if a game shows up in that genre, like Vanguard or Africa or some others, i might accept the "little burden" of a fantasy game for the huge advantage to play another sandbox.
I have played E&B as well. It was a sandbox game like SWG once was, that made E&B so great. E&B had 40K subscribers on its highpoint, they closed it when it was down to 25K.
I remember the freedom of E&B, when i wondered if i go and try to loot some weapons to print, from the Voltoi in Antares, or take my Trader, JE and PW to Aquitaine and shoot Rider Bosses L55 till the dropped the Dark Matter.
Exploring Cygni61, or visiting the Vrix Base on the old Progen Planet (i had neutral Vrix faction).
That was FUN !!!
It was the same fun, when i was moving to SWG and found it the same sandbox. Heck, there was even NO tutorial ! LMAO !
I was dropped on "noobland" and not even told how to move :P The first i did was figuring out, what is a "computer character" and what was a "player".
I guess many pi...themself seeing me talking to an NPC ("Hey bud, can you help me?") LMAO, i WOULD have pi.. my pants seeing this :P
Fortunatly, some1 popped in, with the helper-tag up, tipped me 50K, told me the very first things i need to know...and from then on i was "in Star Wars".
I "founded" my toon, my "Life" there from the very bottom and beginning. I remember me walking by foot (game had no vehicles that time) 10 KM to finish a mishi.
And today ? You dump into Tatooine where HAN is eating your ear (aka: Talking you dumb:P), shoving you money, speeder, weapons etc., then sending you out in the wild where you hit the mouse button till you beg for mercy and decide to use your computer for something better then degrading it to a "super nintendo".
SWG pre-CU was a diverse immense bug ridden and unbalanced piece of junk - but fun.
They removed they diversery, the immersive experience, the profession and the fun (for me). Easy to see whats left: The junk and bugs.
No thanks SoE, i can change my diaper alone already a long time...
I bought swg for my boyfriend at the time when it first came out. One day, he was gone and i decided i'd try it out. I spent about 2 hours designing my character (no joke ) and then picked bounty hunter as my first goal. I logged in, had no idea what to do, so i took a delivery mission from a rebel npc. Well, i didnt know shuttleports existed, so i started running from Tyrena to the dot on my radar.
When i realized the dot wasnt in the city i was in, i kept running. I still remember the amazement i felt as i started running down the hill from the city and looked over the "world" of Corellia and saw the sun setting in the orange sky. I thought, "Wow, i think i could just run forever in this game". lol. And thats basically what i did. I spent all my time out in the wild, leveling my scout and marksman trees for bh, rarely comming across people, and not knowing what to do when i did.
I still remember the warmth of my first friends in game and being invited to join a growing guild with their own city. I remember spending days shopping for and designing the house they gave me.
What i remember most was going into Theed or Anchorhead and recognizing characters that i had seen before. I started recognizing guilds and their cities. I recognized merchants and their products. I started wearing the clothes that were popular with the people i liked and what seemed "stylish".
The more i learned about the game and the more people i met, the more i was just pulled into this world where i could be anything and do anything and meet anyone, with what felt like no limits.
I havent played a game since that has come close to copying those feelings. When i log out of Wow or GW, i dont feel like im leaving a life behind like i did with swg. And i think thats why i still get emotional when i think about sitting in theed with my guildies just making fun of each other and doing nothing. Or solo grouping with them on endor to grind our jedis, meeting in cantinas to get buffed, and comming to each other's aid when a bh appeard. Or watching the Miss SWG pagent that was held on eclipse and laughing our ass off at the wookiee who won. Or going krayt hunting with my real life fiance ( that i met in swg) and looting lots of pearls that always tuned perfect for me and crap for my him (haha).
I cant forget those memories because they were real friends and real places and i'll never ever go there again.
Someone might read this and think "wow, how incredibley pathetic that they feel that way about a game". Well, i agree its pathetic, but i cant change the way i felt and i think i'll continue to remember swg as long as im alive.
Originally posted by ClaudeFR I guess many pi...themself seeing me talking to an NPC ("Hey bud, can you help me?") LMAO, i WOULD have pi.. my pants seeing this :P Fortunatly, some1 popped in, with the helper-tag up, tipped me 50K, told me the very first things i need to know...and from then on i was "in Star Wars". I "founded" my toon, my "Life" there from the very bottom and beginning. I remember me walking by foot (game had no vehicles that time) 10 KM to finish a mishi. And today ? You dump into Tatooine where HAN is eating your ear (aka: Talking you dumb:P), shoving you money, speeder, weapons etc., then sending you out in the wild where you hit the mouse button till you beg for mercy and decide to use your computer for something better then degrading it to a "super nintendo".
I think you described perfectly why SWG was so special to you, I, and everyone here.
The galaxy was so big, and so detailed, that even if we didn't want to roleplay, we did so anyway.
I said in another thread the difference between going to see Jabba back in those times, and seeing Jabba today.
These days, you just instantly appear at Jabbas, run through the missions, get the stuff, and never bother seeing Jabba as anything other than content to consume.
But in the old days, even getting to Jabba was an adventure in itself. There was no thing on the map that said, "here is Jabba's secret palace." Jabba's palace was secret knowledge that would be revealed unto us if we were worthy. That in itself made Jabba special. An experience that was not available to all, but only to those who were initiated into its secret mystery.
We didn't even know where it was, and we'd go to the cantina and ask, "anybody here know where I can see Jabba?" And people might say, "I can tell you where it is, but it is a dangerous journey."
We would have to prepare beforehand in Bestine, because it was a dangerous journey to even get to Jabba's palace. We'd have to go across the dune sea with Tuskans and Jawas trying to rob us, and Dewbacks trying to eat us. Every so often we'd camp and tell stories.
But when we found Wayfar, it was like an oasis. We'd find the medical center there, the cloning center, and the cantina. We'd be relieved to find refuge in town, and then go to see Jabba.
But we couldn't just see Jabba, because we had to again prove ourselves. We'd see others go up to see him, but we could not. We'd see people go into the room with the band and the dancing girls and say, "dammit! I want to be there too!" But just as the ones who came before had to go through the experience to be initiated into the mystery, so too did we.
But then when we did do the trials, it actually felt like we achieved something, and shared something in common that no others would know, unless they did what we did. Entrance to the Jabba inner circle was something that felt special. There were times we'd just hang out there, just because it was a place not everyone would be.
I used to /bow to Jabba. We used to all do so. We did so, because it just seemed like an important thing to do.
These days, nobody /bows to Jabba. Jabba is just a computer generated NPC to these people, and they actually think you are stupid if you /bow to him.
I miss those days. Those days when we used to respect the fiction.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Ahhh.... Jabba's Palace! That WAS a special place. Walking into the shadow beyond the great metal portcullis was an invitation to roleplay, even if you walked in alone. I would find myself /emoting to npcs, simply because it felt right and it gave me a sense of satisfaction. If you walked in in the right frame of mind, you could almost feel the arid heat and smell the stink of the place.
It was things like this that were a springboard for the mind. Jabba's Palace was a nugget of content that, once devoured, gave you an appetite for more. And if there was no more provided, you found ways to create your own. I honestly don't know how many newer players I helped guide through gaining Jabba's trust. But each one was another story in my character's long history with the Hutt, the rewards far outwieghing the effort and the patience required to help another person along. And the roleplay and camaraderie this one single destination sparked were priceless.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by azhrarn So what REAL justification can a person raise to condemn virtual society, when it is a tool that extends both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know and perhaps even like other people? I think the justification comes in the form of how you posed the question. Its not reality. Its theatre. Theatre that average people like you and I can create and explore. To create our own plots and dramas. To pretend to be something that we are not, and to encounter others who portaray things they are not. I thought that was what we were discussing originally when we were talking about living as an "alter ego," or living a "secret life." Because I don't want to be a female in real life. Nor do I want to be a smuggler in real life. But because of places like SWG, I can be a female, or a smuggler, or anything else I would like to pretend to be. The great part about it is, I don't have to have my alter lives I experience in online games affect my real life. Initially, I thought that was what you were saying too. Yet now, it seems as if you don't want to live an alternative life, with others who are playing alternative lives. It seems that now you are saying you like the medium because it is good to, "extend, both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know, and perhaps even like other people." So what is it? Do you like these games to create a shared fantasy? Or do we like these games because we want to meet the real people behind the fiction? I understand the first one. I understand the second one. But I don't understand how we can expect both, when players want either one or the other. If I want to play a woman, or play a criminal, some people think its their right to ask whether I really am a woman, or ask what I do for a living. To me, that's an unfair question to ask. Yet it is a question that we cannot help but ask, when we do this thing to get to know the person behind the character. Because by asking questions about our lives behind the characters, we rob eachother of our shared fiction. Because if the female is found out to be male, or the jedi is found out to be a criminal on probation, its very hard, if not impossible, to ever view the female or the jedi in the same way. No longer will the female dancer be viewed as a living character. She will be viewed as a "shim," or a man trying to deceive others into believing he is female. No longer will the jedi be viewed as an honorable personality. He will be viewed as some criminal on probation playing a jedi. I understand why we are inquisitive about the player behind the character. Its only natural. Yes, It can lead to good things at times, but it does it at a cost. And the cost is that we can never go back to that innocent alternate fantasy. That masquerade that allows us to live and be treated as something else, which can be found best in online worlds. I guess what I am trying to say is that I really don't care about knowing who Claude is, or who you are Azhrarn. Its not because either of you are bad people. You may, in fact, be good people to know "IRL." I also really don't want you knowing about me. Not because I am a bad person to know, and not because I am ashamed of myself. But because I really don't see the point. What is more important to me, and more important when I played Galaxies, was that I played characters. Characters I worked hard to make interesting, believeable, and fun. Characters that would help facilitate the shared fiction of your characters, Claude and Azhrarn. I think that's more valuable than finding out who we are, what we do, and figuring out later if we want anything to do with eachother. Because we really don't need online games to do that, do we? What we do need online games for is to facilitate roleplay, make believe, and shared fiction. I don't need to go to online games to be treated as a motorcycle salesman by people that really don't need to know I am a motorcycle salesman. I want to be treated as a rodian bounty hunter from Lok, and treat you all like who you portray as well. So what is it you and Claude want? Do you play these games to portray characters, and be treated like characters? Or do you play these games to get to know real people, and be treated as your real self, and not as the characters you play?
I think you fail to realize that no matter how different you role play your character, that character is still a part of you. Part of you shines through that character. So a Convict MAY play an honorable Jedi, but that means that some part of him wants to be that character. As to men playing women, I never really understood that personally. I don't think that all men who play women in games do it because deep down they want to be women, but it may be for attention. And I don't mean that in a "LOOK AT ME! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" I mean that in the sense that they want to stand out. They want to be different. 90% of gamers are men (boys), playing a woman character instantly sets them apart. It also lends itself to even more aninimity. You just never know who is playing that Twi'lek dancer. But I don't think gender even matters in MMO's. It's a moot point.
So you talk about whether we like to meet REAL people, or CHARACTERS. I say there is no difference. Every character you meet in an MMO is a sliver of a REAL person. The things that person says and does are part of a REAL person. You may be meeting just a part of them, but they are just as REAL as the person you see in the mirror. They have hopes and dreams and emotions. They may play a character completely opposite them in real life, however that opposite is still part of their personality spectrum, it just may not be one they are comfortable using in the real world. I think my character was a LOT like me. If I were to live in the Star Wars universe, that's who I'd choose to be. That's why I made him that way. He had my wit, my charm (maybe, lol), my ambition. He spoke like me, he had my morals and values. Yeah, not everyone plays like that, that was my choice. Just like I believe if you choose to be evil and run around ganking people all day, you are letting your immaturity shine through, be you 15 or 50. That's not really a bad thing, everybody deserves a little immaturity sometimes. Besides, what would a "virtual world" be without the bad guys. I had enemies on my server that I absolutely HATED, but I have to admit, without them my game wouldn't have been the same. It wouldn't have felt as real.
I personally don't think that knowing your in game friends in real life ruins any kind of immersion. My guild had a Ventrillo server, we all used when we played. I knew everyone's name. I knew where everyone lived. I went drinking with a few when they were my town. It didn't ruin my immersion, it just tied my to their characters as friend even more, cause now I knew the man (or woman) behind the mask.
I also think MMOs serve a very valid purpose in all of our lives. We are animals, we yearn for adventure and excitement. We yearn for danger, for adrenaline. It's part of our chemistry. It's something missing from a LOT of our daily lives. Some people fill this viod with sports, or the military, or a high risk job. But that's not for all of us. Some of us fill it by leading these adventurous lives in MMO's. Be that good or bad is yet to be seen, but at the moment it works. People seek adventure and excitement (I know, a Jedi craves none these things, but they crave Jedi, lol) but the daily 9-5, making dinner for the kids, or homework just doesn't cut it. We need that extra boost of adventure. We weren't designed to be completely comfortable sitting in our houses watching the grass grow. It goes against every natural instinct in our bodies. We need these characters to live out things we can only dream of doing normally.
Originally posted by Beatnik59 Originally posted by azhrarn So what REAL justification can a person raise to condemn virtual society, when it is a tool that extends both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know and perhaps even like other people? I think the justification comes in the form of how you posed the question. Its not reality. Its theatre. Theatre that average people like you and I can create and explore. To create our own plots and dramas. To pretend to be something that we are not, and to encounter others who portaray things they are not. I thought that was what we were discussing originally when we were talking about living as an "alter ego," or living a "secret life." Because I don't want to be a female in real life. Nor do I want to be a smuggler in real life. But because of places like SWG, I can be a female, or a smuggler, or anything else I would like to pretend to be. The great part about it is, I don't have to have my alter lives I experience in online games affect my real life. Initially, I thought that was what you were saying too. Yet now, it seems as if you don't want to live an alternative life, with others who are playing alternative lives. It seems that now you are saying you like the medium because it is good to, "extend, both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know, and perhaps even like other people." So what is it? Do you like these games to create a shared fantasy? Or do we like these games because we want to meet the real people behind the fiction? I understand the first one. I understand the second one. But I don't understand how we can expect both, when players want either one or the other. If I want to play a woman, or play a criminal, some people think its their right to ask whether I really am a woman, or ask what I do for a living. To me, that's an unfair question to ask. Yet it is a question that we cannot help but ask, when we do this thing to get to know the person behind the character. Because by asking questions about our lives behind the characters, we rob eachother of our shared fiction. Because if the female is found out to be male, or the jedi is found out to be a criminal on probation, its very hard, if not impossible, to ever view the female or the jedi in the same way. No longer will the female dancer be viewed as a living character. She will be viewed as a "shim," or a man trying to deceive others into believing he is female. No longer will the jedi be viewed as an honorable personality. He will be viewed as some criminal on probation playing a jedi. I understand why we are inquisitive about the player behind the character. Its only natural. Yes, It can lead to good things at times, but it does it at a cost. And the cost is that we can never go back to that innocent alternate fantasy. That masquerade that allows us to live and be treated as something else, which can be found best in online worlds. I guess what I am trying to say is that I really don't care about knowing who Claude is, or who you are Azhrarn. Its not because either of you are bad people. You may, in fact, be good people to know "IRL." I also really don't want you knowing about me. Not because I am a bad person to know, and not because I am ashamed of myself. But because I really don't see the point. What is more important to me, and more important when I played Galaxies, was that I played characters. Characters I worked hard to make interesting, believeable, and fun. Characters that would help facilitate the shared fiction of your characters, Claude and Azhrarn. I think that's more valuable than finding out who we are, what we do, and figuring out later if we want anything to do with eachother. Because we really don't need online games to do that, do we? What we do need online games for is to facilitate roleplay, make believe, and shared fiction. I don't need to go to online games to be treated as a motorcycle salesman by people that really don't need to know I am a motorcycle salesman. I want to be treated as a rodian bounty hunter from Lok, and treat you all like who you portray as well. So what is it you and Claude want? Do you play these games to portray characters, and be treated like characters? Or do you play these games to get to know real people, and be treated as your real self, and not as the characters you play?
Beatnik, if I didn't think I knew better, I'd say that you are deliberately blurring and misconstruing what you read here. Your almost intentional lack of comprehension makes me tired just trying to stand in your virtual shoes.
You seem to be unable or unwilling to make the mental leap that allows for more than one function to be alotted to any tool. It is an incontrovertable fact that MMORPGs perform many different functions and give many different opportunities. Which functions we choose to take advantage of and how we use them defines us as players.
Some only sieze onto a single aspect of a game, singlemindedly pursuing a single goal using a single facet. While I find that more than a little simplistic and would go out of my head with boredom, I can't find it in me to condemn a person for playing a game in this fashion. They paid the same ticket price for the ride, and as long as they're not interfering with my enjoyment, they're entitled to enjoy the game any way they like. It doesn't make them any worse or better than I am and I can't justify acting as though it does.
Others, and I'm pretty sure that both Claude and I both fit into this group, prefer to pursue more than a single angle of the games we play. I personally experienced the game on many different levels. There was the PvE game, at which I did well and found hours of enjoyment in pursuing. There was the PvP game, which I dabbled in, finding a great deal of pleasure but only limited success (hairstylists just don't pwn all the time). There was the roleplay, which I pursued with great vigour, much joy and derived much satisfaction in doing. And there were the many WONDERFUL and fascinating people I met behind the characters they played.
Now while many of these facets could be combined to heighten the mutual enjoyment I shared with the people I played along side, there was at no time any blurring of the out of character with the in character. I'm a veteran roleplayer, as I've said. I am very adamant about keeping the lines between fantasy and reality clear. I know from experience that there are people who cannot. So I make sure that those who roleplay with me often know the difference and respect it. I'm not the kind of woman who will ever willingly "put my hands in the crazy". That path leads to drama and pain, both of which I have a serious aversion to.
The people who roleplayed with me got to know two people. They met a fictional character created with much thought and pride, who lived and breathed in the Star Wars galaxy. And then, they met me, the player, the person and the intellect that spawned that character. They at all times were kept aware of which was which. Example:
Noobia: Your insistance on clinging to a doomed cause is futile. If you will not see reason, I will be forced to end your miserable life. Think of it as a mercy killing.
(/tell Floyd) Noobia: ((OOC)) OMG she's so EEEEVUHHLLL!!!! LOL kick her butt, she deserves it! Hey, how's your GF doing? She still sick?
As you can see, there is no room for mistake here. You'd have to be exceptionally stupid to think that I was an imperial loyalist or that Noobia would give a crap about Floyd's sick girlfriend. While these two conversations were happening more or less at the same time, they were seperate and easily distinguishable by anyone with rudimentary reading and reasoning skills. So as you see, the game was a vehicle for more than one activity at the same time. Not very hard to grasp.
So tell me, Beat, what part of this can't you wrap your head around?
((edit to adress a missed point I found to be important))
As for your desire for anonymity, that is simply your way of playing. If while you are in SWG you only wanted people to know the character you created, that was what they got to know. Your real self stayed safe and insulated behind your keyboard. And as long as you didn't mislead anyone, there was nothing wrong with that at all. But you have to understand that not everyone played the game the way you did. And this doesn't make them less than you.
I might feel sad for you because you missed a part of the game (the virtual community aspect) that I found priceless, I don't look down on you for having avoided it. You have your own reasons and your own needs. They are yours, and whether you chose to share them or not, they are valid to you, therefore important. My sadness doesn't change that fact. And along that same logic, my choices or Claude's choices, our needs and our methods, are no less valid and no less important. And by no means are they any more or less right than your own.
That waitress at Pete's who took so long to seat you, And left you to stand in the doorway, With her stringy red hair and her thousand-yard stare, In her mind, she's the Princess of Norway.
As she takes down your order, she's crossing the fjord, her White stallion spits foam like a madman. Many Vikings have died trying to take her as bride, But her heart is reserved for a bad man.
Rich fantasy lives. Somehow she survives in a world she contrives. Inhibited husbands and frustrated wives Lead rich fantasy lives.
That guy from IT ressurects your PC With a boredom he barely suppresses. Though he rarely converses, he has more universes In his head than you've got addresses.
He wargames through weekends, leads armies and legions. He doesn't care how well you putted. He's browsing reality's infinite palette, he's Seen yours, and yours doesn't cut it.
Rich fantasy lives. He quietly thrives in a world he contrives. Techno-drone insects in cubicle hives Lead rich fantasy lives.
We're piling up fears, but we're out of frontiers. Some need to escape, but there's nowhere. Can't go to the Moon, at least any time soon, But an inner-space trip costs you no fare.
So don't be unkind to a wandering mind, Just say it again if we missed it. Some whispering poem was calling us home To a place we know never existed.
Rich fantasy lives. Our peace-bonded knives and our hyperspace drives. Until that steam engine to Hogwarts arrives, We have rich fantasy lives.
Rich fantasy lives. Our quests and our tribes and our Babylon Fives. Until something better than this world arrives, We'll lead rich fantasy lives. Rich fantasy lives.
Wow I dont know about you guys but I really never really got into a game before. I dont know how a person can, but I guess they do, I guess its just up to the person themselves, I just find being in a virtual world with a virtual life is not a life at all its not the same as being in the real world in a real life, I find the two totally different. But it is up the person I guess.
Whannnnn Whannnnn dat is the sound of 20 year old babies
Wow I dont know about you guys but I really never really got into a game before. I dont know how a person can, but I guess they do, I guess its just up to the person themselves, I just find being in a virtual world with a virtual life is not a life at all its not the same as being in the real world in a real life, I find the two totally different. But it is up the person I guess.
Whannnnn Whannnnn dat is the sound of 20 year old babies
Originally posted by azhrarn So tell me, Beat, what part of this can't you wrap your head around?
What I can't understand is why you feel that knowing these people from a game is better than the other people we live with in the tangible world? Why are you so tenacious at protecting this virtual community thing you like from being declared "fake," or "false?"
It seems to me that people who claim that this "virtual" community is better then the "material" community say so, because people have a tendency to judge others too soon, without getting to know them.
I am arguing that this fact doesn't change, just because its virtual. In fact, I would argue that its easier to prejudge in this "virtual" community.
Say I am a twenty five year old highschool dropout on social welfare, who plays a jedi. Let's say a twenty five year old single woman plays a dancer.
These two can look out for eachother, and have fun together doing missions. They can tell eachother stories, and really enjoy each other's company. In fact, the jedi is thinking this is a nice girl. The dancer is thinking this is a fine man.
Then, the woman asks, "well, what do you do for a living?" The man says, "I'm not employed, and live on social welfare."
So now that we finally have a bit of reality to go on, what is to say that the judgement cannot be just as quick? The guy may indeed be a good guy on hard times, but this doesn't matter to the woman, who automatically assumes he's a vagrant unworthy of her time.
Better yet, what if the high school dropout lies, and says he's an attorney? What if the woman believes this fiction?
You see, I don't think that this "virtual" community doesn't solve the problem of being prejudgemental when trying to meet real people that we'd like as our friends out of the game. It only makes it that much harder to get any reliable truth at all in which to judge.
"Virtual" community is a community on the user's terms, whether or not it is fair to those around the user. In real life, we can't put the coworker on the ignore list, or put the bums on the street on the ignore list. We can't "logout," when we don't want to have to deal with someone, nor do we have any obligation to anyone when we tire of them.
Its better in terms of the power of the user to decide his or her community. But I'm not entirely sure that this helps us grow as individuals. If anything, it creates resentment, bitterness, and stagnation toward others who don't fit into our preconceived notions of what is proper. Its hard to learn how to work through issues when there are no issues with those around us, and when its easy enough to rationalize to ourselves that its "just a game."
In fact, I would argue that the reason this medium is such a bad place for meeting people, is that its too easy to leave. Scratch that. Too easy to force others to leave. Nobody really has a stake in this silliness, and nobody really needs to respect anyone else. If you don't like someone, just put them on the ignore list.
If I had the power to put people that ticked me off on an ignore list, I wouldn't learn half as much, nor would I find true fulfillment nearly as much. Because those are the ones that help me see the world differently, from a new perspective.
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 I thought that was what we were discussing originally when we were talking about living as an "alter ego," or living a "secret life." Because I don't want to be a female in real life. Nor do I want to be a smuggler in real life. [/quote]
Ok, lets go back to essential definitions.
We have three ways of playing onlinegames:
1. Playing a game. And thats it. Just playing, no social stuff 2. Playing a game being the ones we are, taking place in a virtual community 3. Playing the game as a "hardcore roleplayer", pretending to be someone matching a "wish", eg. Jedi, Dancer etc.
Please note, that playing an Entertainer or Jedi doesnt nessecarily implicates (3), it could be also (1) and (2).
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 Initially, I thought that was what you were saying too. Yet now, it seems as if you don't want to live an alternative life, with others who are playing alternative lives. It seems that now you are saying you like the medium because it is good to, "extend, both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know, and perhaps even like other people." [/quote]
I didnt say this. What i said is/was, that i can play the game in many "colors", it depends on what i want.
I am Claude, every1 in the guild knows me as Claude when he is interessting in knowing me as Claude and if im interessted to LET him/she know that i am Claude.
I can decide this new everytime again, whenever someone is asking me.
That makes your arguement about "asking the question" invalid: Not asking the question is unfair, answering might be. If you DECIDE to answer it.
You could also say "I am a roleplayer living my virtual life here. I am acting within this "illusion". Please understand that any question regarding my life outside this illusion is a taboo and wont be answered."
So what is the way i play the game ? First of all, i play the game for the game, for having fun within the games "parameter".
Then i play because it is fun to play within a community. This means being nice to others, having fun, being helpfull.
Then i enjoy people coming to me saying "They say you are of the best PvP toons on this server, can you train me?" and "You are a publish 9 Jedi, can you train me?"
In the latter, i live a role, here it begins.
Now i am not Claude anymore, now i am the "Jedimaster, well known on the server, training the padawans". This is a role, which i do enjoy (who wouldnt).
So at this point, you start to move away from being a player controlling a toon representing you as the player behind the keyboard, from this point on you start to be the Jedi and/or Combat trainer, which you try to align to as the one behind the keyboard, controlling this toon in the given "environment".
The very same happens to successive crafters. These peoples are not "Nancy" playing an AS anymore, they start to be an AS controlled by "Nancy". I hope the difference is clear.
These people start to live the role "suddenly". Going to bed with thoughs like "I need to make some more of this tomorrow, i need some more comp. layers, some krayt components, some this and that". They in terms of "I - the AS".
And this clearly where you "live a role".
These are the (for me) three steps of playing a game.
Important is (regarding another part of your prev. posting), that this all can go hand in hand. Its not excluding one of the other gameplays but more floating from one to the other. I can always "versionjump" between (1) (2) and (3).
Even on a minutebase: With alts, with other accounts and even on diff. servers. Whenever i want.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 So what is it? Do you like these games to create a shared fantasy? Or do we like these games because we want to meet the real people behind the fiction? I understand the first one. I understand the second one. But I don't understand how we can expect both, when players want either one or the other. [/quote]
Both. And both can go along, like said above. It depends even on the one i act with/to and the situation.
I could be the envy dancer of our guild, everyone adores - but i could be "Claude" to you as my buddy the same time, cuz i've clued you in.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 If I want to play a woman, or play a criminal, some people think its their right to ask whether I really am a woman, or ask what I do for a living. To me, that's an unfair question to ask. Yet it is a question that we cannot help but ask, when we do this thing to get to know the person behind the character. [/quote]
Like said above, i think people DO have the right to ask. Whenever something personal is involved (and this is always the case in an onlinegame) i COULD ask you.
If you ANSWER or not, that is the real question.
And if you decide to NOT answer my question, i must accept this and i need to understand your right of privacy. That is the "unfair" part, if some1 wouldnt understand your right of privacy.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 Because by asking questions about our lives behind the characters, we rob eachother of our shared fiction. [/quote]
By decision and intention. If you dont want, dont ask... There is always the "risk" of getting disappointed.
I had the situation more then once, were i was tempted to ask a question - but i simply didnt cuz i wanted to keep the illusion. Important here is, that the relation to the other player was intended as an illusion and never more. So a question looking behind this illusion must be considered "contraproductive". In this situation, it should be avoided - IF you dont WANT to push the relationship with this other player into RL terrain.
Again, a decision on your own.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 Because if the female is found out to be male, or the jedi is found out to be a criminal on probation, its very hard, if not impossible, to ever view the female or the jedi in the same way. [/quote]
Yes, this could happen.
This is part of the socialgame. Something everyone playing an onlinegame, should know: It could happen.
But if you know the terms in advance, you can deal with it - becuz then its in YOUR hands: Ask...or dont....based on what you WANT.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 I understand why we are inquisitive about the player behind the character. Its only natural. Yes, It can lead to good things at times, but it does it at a cost. And the cost is that we can never go back to that innocent alternate fantasy. That masquerade that allows us to live and be treated as something else, which can be found best in online worlds. [/quote]
But again: Its up to you, you decide it !
YOu want the masquerade ? Then never ask the "taboo question".
Live the masquerade and enjoy.
But you can also live the masquerade with toon "A", but ask toon "B" the question. You can "jump" from "version to version" from "toon to toon", like said before.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 I guess what I am trying to say is that I really don't care about knowing who Claude is, or who you are Azhrarn. Its not because either of you are bad people. You may, in fact, be good people to know "IRL." I also really don't want you knowing about me. Not because I am a bad person to know, and not because I am ashamed of myself. But because I really don't see the point. [/quote]
And this is ok. Everyone has the right to decide for himself, who he/she wants to know, who he/she wants to LET know and who not.
You do the same in RL.
You like some1 ? "Hey, gimme your number, youre cool - lets get something going soon"
You dislike ? "No offense dude, but youre weired.....move along plz"
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 What is more important to me, and more important when I played Galaxies, was that I played characters. Characters I worked hard to make interesting, believeable, and fun. Characters that would help facilitate the shared fiction of your characters, Claude and Azhrarn. [/quote]
Well, you are obv. the "type 3" player then.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 I think that's more valuable than finding out who we are, what we do, and figuring out later if we want anything to do with eachother. Because we really don't need online games to do that, do we? [/quote]
"Might" need. If you have no chance to meet people in RL due to fulltime work, family etc (which most have that way), you are "in need" to use the "instrument" onlinegaming.
That was, why some here (inc. me) said earlier: "Its not that we have no lifes etc etc etc, but...."
The "need" is that we have the "way" to use an convenient instrument to accomplish something we might not in RL due to our timerestrictions BECAUSE we are so "busy" in RL.
The 4 hours each night, when the kids in bed, all is done - these 4 hours are something i can spend in slutty clothes in front of my computer, without the need to style up cuz i want to move out.
I simply start the game and have everything in front of me. And my toon is always styled and dressed ... LOL !
Dont get me wrong, im sure we ALL move out and meet our firends from time to time. But please - not every night after i had a rough day at work.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59 So what is it you and Claude want? Do you play these games to portray characters, and be treated like characters? Or do you play these games to get to know real people, and be treated as your real self, and not as the characters you play? [/quote]
Like said: Both.
There are people i like to hang out with because the humans controlling these toons are nice. We talk on teamspeak, we send mails etc.
And there are other player knowing me as "Master XY" seeking advise for combatstrategies or crafting advise (i was a 12pt. doc with one of the highest packs on the server too).
It depends on: But one isnt excluding the other.
Thats the diversity, thats the fun - thats the game.
Well, was: SoE took away the sandbox. SoE took away the diversity. SoE took away the deeper meaning of it all.
When the once complex and mature sandboxgame became a dull console-clicker, i hit cancel for all of my toons.
Today, they are just a memory.
I think, Beatnik, that you have a bit of a hard time trying to UNDERSTAND things behind "the edge of your plate" (like we say). Please try to "grab" the vision behind the way people play the game that way. If you can do THIS, you might be able to understand WHY.
There isnt an "a" or "b" or "c" - there is an "a" !AND! "b" !AND! "c", little but important difference.
In your previous post you said >>In fact, I would argue that the reason this medium is such a bad place for meeting people, >>is that its too easy to leave. Scratch that. Too easy to force others to leave. Nobody really has a stake in this silliness, >>and nobody really needs to respect anyone else. If you don't like someone, just put them on the ignore list.
This is exactly what i mean. You need to learn to look behind your personal horizon.
What would you think, that some1 you DID piss off and who left after that, is sending an apologize a bit later and wants to "come back"? How much of some1 REALLY interessted is THAT ?
If it is SO easy to "escape", it makes it even more valuable to show backbone.
You could see it with a tunnelview, but then u will miss the beauty of it outside the tunnel....
______________________________________________________________________________________ Beatnik59 What I can't understand is why you feel that knowing these people from a game is better than the other people we live with in the tangible world? Why are you so tenacious at protecting this virtual community thing you like from being declared "fake," or "false?"
It seems to me that people who claim that this "virtual" community is better then the "material" community say so, because people have a tendency to judge others too soon, without getting to know them. ______________________________________________________________________________________
I don't think anyone has claimed that the virtual world is any better than the real world. In fact, in deference to the OP, this thread is dealing with WHY so many people, myself included, have had such a hard time letting go of the virtual world that SWG represented. We understand that this is not necessarily a good thing, so we are exploring the possible reasons why.
This introspection and discussion, looking at the different aspects and facets of SWG and gaming in general, I think is necessary. From a psychological standpoint, I think it represents a very healthy and natural response, and ultimately can be a platform from which to move on.
______________________________________________________________________________________ Beatnik59 Say I am a twenty five year old highschool dropout on social welfare, who plays a jedi. Let's say a twenty five year old single woman plays a dancer.
These two can look out for eachother, and have fun together doing missions. They can tell eachother stories, and really enjoy each other's company. In fact, the jedi is thinking this is a nice girl. The dancer is thinking this is a fine man.
Then, the woman asks, "well, what do you do for a living?" The man says, "I'm not employed, and live on social welfare."
So now that we finally have a bit of reality to go on, what is to say that the judgement cannot be just as quick? The guy may indeed be a good guy on hard times, but this doesn't matter to the woman, who automatically assumes he's a vagrant unworthy of her time.
Better yet, what if the high school dropout lies, and says he's an attorney? What if the woman believes this fiction?
You see, I don't think that this "virtual" community doesn't solve the problem of being prejudgemental when trying to meet real people that we'd like as our friends out of the game. It only makes it that much harder to get any reliable truth at all in which to judge. ___________________________________________________________________________________
While this might be a valid concern, how is this any different from the "materiel" world? There are con men and women out there as well, and the concequences just as high if not higher. How do you think people in abusive relationships feel? Just because it can happen in the virtual world, it doesn't mean that it can't happen in the material world, so I think this argument just doesn't hold much water.
While the virtual world may give the unscrupulous a greater ability to mask their intentions, it also makes it more difficult to really harm people. In this way, you might even give the virtual world kudos for in essance having a training ground to spot these kind of people before they hurt you in real life. Unscrupulous people often make telling mistakes when they think no one is watching, or are hidden behind the annonymity of a virtual facade.
____________________________________________________________________________________ Beatnik59 Its better in terms of the power of the user to decide his or her community. But I'm not entirely sure that this helps us grow as individuals. If anything, it creates resentment, bitterness, and stagnation toward others who don't fit into our preconceived notions of what is proper. Its hard to learn how to work through issues when there are no issues with those around us, and when its easy enough to rationalize to ourselves that its "just a game."
In fact, I would argue that the reason this medium is such a bad place for meeting people, is that its too easy to leave. Scratch that. Too easy to force others to leave. Nobody really has a stake in this silliness, and nobody really needs to respect anyone else. If you don't like someone, just put them on the ignore list. ____________________________________________________________________________________
Forgive me if I am being presumptuous, but I am getting the feeling that you are perhaps making this argument because you have either been "burnt" by this kind of activity, or fear being so. I think you may be projecting your own fears here, and in doing so, perhaps you have denied that it has any kind of value, so that it cannot hurt you.
Just because it is a game, does not lessen the impact that it has on our psyche. In much the same way that people writing letters to each other can form a bond, so too can people playing together in an MMO. The medium is not important, the bond and the feelings are.
The medium (SWG) in this case allowed for a far more intense bond than I think many people expected. Character avatars were flexible enough that it allowed us the freedom to more fully "personify" ourselves within the medium. No matter what many people think, I personally believe (being a veteran role-player for almost 30 years) that all avatars are a reflection of the person. I pesonally take great joy in exploring apsects of myself that I would not do otherwise. Though because I believe in this connection with the avatar, I do not PvP, as I see this as violence to another persons psyche.
Comments
To the OP, excellent question.
I could try answering, in fact, I have spent the past hour trying to, lol. But at the end of the day I'm as non-plussed as you.
I'm glad you did ask though and that so many like minded people have come out of the woodwork and posted. I really was starting to think I was the only one, lol.
A long time ago, in a forum far, far away, somebody said "Nerf Smart People".
It was meant as a comment on the dev attitude to the squeaky wheelers who were getting uspet that some people in the game could do things that they couldn't do, becuase of choices they'd made and the consequences of those choices. But there y'go, many a true word is spoken in jest, eh.
Take care, all of you, and, here's hoping that someday there's a game that we can get back into and feel as much 'at home' as we used to in SWG.
To the OP, you say something very profound in the respect that we are taught what is wrong, but have built a society that has us do wrong to succeed. What is success? Is it a lot of money? If a person has every material possession that anyone could want, but laments every decision they ever made, are they truly successful? If a person has all of the medicine in the world but cannot heal himself and be well, do they have real wellness? Could it be that the term 'success' as defined by normal society isn't success at all? Maybe success is something simpler like happiness, wellness and fulfillment.
Perhaps something is missing and people attempt to fill this void through an online society. The problem is, real people play the game and normally their confidence level, their criminal tendencies, and their inadequacies and weaknesses still shine through. Inherently, an MMO is a place where you can be what you cannot in real life. The mousey nerd can escape his daily wedgies and become the bully. The woman who wishes to be beautiful can become the sensuous dancer and seducer of men. Are we really peering into a person's soul, or merely their desires?
Is it easier to find the person of your dreams online? Perhaps it is. Perhaps it does give us a barrier in which we can truly see the person inside and not how they appear on the surface. Is depending on this medium of communication as a means to see beyond these physical barriers we make for ourselves a necessity? Or, is the dependence on the virtual world diminishing our ability to learn for ourselves to push past these methods of crude judgment? Is it a crutch? Do we weaken ourselves or enrich ourselves in the virtual world, or do we do both at once?
The questions asked in this thread are very thought provoking and I am of the opinion that there will be many, many more people asking these very questions in the future.
True Neutral Half-Elf Ranger Mage
Follower Of Silvanus
Kings of Chaos! Free to play! Great PvP!
<sigh>
Athela
Now I have to be nice.
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
I think the justification comes in the form of how you posed the question.
Its not reality. Its theatre. Theatre that average people like you and I can create and explore. To create our own plots and dramas. To pretend to be something that we are not, and to encounter others who portaray things they are not.
I thought that was what we were discussing originally when we were talking about living as an "alter ego," or living a "secret life." Because I don't want to be a female in real life. Nor do I want to be a smuggler in real life.
But because of places like SWG, I can be a female, or a smuggler, or anything else I would like to pretend to be. The great part about it is, I don't have to have my alter lives I experience in online games affect my real life.
Initially, I thought that was what you were saying too. Yet now, it seems as if you don't want to live an alternative life, with others who are playing alternative lives.
It seems that now you are saying you like the medium because it is good to, "extend, both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know, and perhaps even like other people."
So what is it? Do you like these games to create a shared fantasy? Or do we like these games because we want to meet the real people behind the fiction?
I understand the first one. I understand the second one.
But I don't understand how we can expect both, when players want either one or the other.
If I want to play a woman, or play a criminal, some people think its their right to ask whether I really am a woman, or ask what I do for a living.
To me, that's an unfair question to ask. Yet it is a question that we cannot help but ask, when we do this thing to get to know the person behind the character.
Because by asking questions about our lives behind the characters, we rob eachother of our shared fiction. Because if the female is found out to be male, or the jedi is found out to be a criminal on probation, its very hard, if not impossible, to ever view the female or the jedi in the same way.
No longer will the female dancer be viewed as a living character. She will be viewed as a "shim," or a man trying to deceive others into believing he is female. No longer will the jedi be viewed as an honorable personality. He will be viewed as some criminal on probation playing a jedi.
I understand why we are inquisitive about the player behind the character. Its only natural. Yes, It can lead to good things at times, but it does it at a cost. And the cost is that we can never go back to that innocent alternate fantasy. That masquerade that allows us to live and be treated as something else, which can be found best in online worlds.
I guess what I am trying to say is that I really don't care about knowing who Claude is, or who you are Azhrarn. Its not because either of you are bad people. You may, in fact, be good people to know "IRL." I also really don't want you knowing about me. Not because I am a bad person to know, and not because I am ashamed of myself. But because I really don't see the point.
What is more important to me, and more important when I played Galaxies, was that I played characters. Characters I worked hard to make interesting, believeable, and fun. Characters that would help facilitate the shared fiction of your characters, Claude and Azhrarn.
I think that's more valuable than finding out who we are, what we do, and figuring out later if we want anything to do with eachother. Because we really don't need online games to do that, do we?
What we do need online games for is to facilitate roleplay, make believe, and shared fiction. I don't need to go to online games to be treated as a motorcycle salesman by people that really don't need to know I am a motorcycle salesman. I want to be treated as a rodian bounty hunter from Lok, and treat you all like who you portray as well.
So what is it you and Claude want?
Do you play these games to portray characters, and be treated like characters?
Or do you play these games to get to know real people, and be treated as your real self, and not as the characters you play?
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
SOE does not care about the costumers that made SWG great; they just want more costumers and did not even ask the playing community what they want.
I mean look at the threads everywhere, there are many people that would go back and play if SOE gave us a pre-cu server, but that would prove that they where wrong launching the NGE and prolly will get some people fired; so that ain't gonna happen either.
The good news is I did some reading on future mmo's on this site and found that some of em are gonna use a system like the pre-cu SWG; I'm talking bout AFRICA and TRIALS OF ASCENCION.
Also VANGUARD looks like a very nice game to play; So SOE when these games launch I will never log in SWG again, it hurts, but you wanted it this way!!
thanks!!
Well I must say that I'm throughly and pleasantly astonished at the level of conversation that is occuring within this thread. I absolutely enjoyed reading it all and realizing that I am not alone in the way I feel. That is with the exception of the brainless fanboi trollers that can't leave a decent discussion alone without adding in their famous three word lines. Replies such as pirrg's are not wanted nor warranted. Go crawl back under the bridge from which you came.
To address the original question, I too have to point out (because I'm in the exact same situation) that the reason we feel the way we feel is due to closure. When I played EQ, EQ2, EVE, FFXI, MxO, PS, WW2O, RO and AO, I was able to experience closure. I grew [insert various reason] of the games and it was my decision to quit. Nothing in those games changed drastically...I simply grew [same reason as above] of playing them and just like others in this post, I never looked back.
For me, there are actually two games in which I never truly experienced closure; Star Wars Galaxies and Earth and Beyond. To this day I yearn to play SWG (pre-CU) and EnB again. I fully understand and accept the problems that both games had at the time I left them or was forced out (in the case of EnB). I have yet to find suitable replacements.
I completely agree with the poster that stated that our avatars are a part of us, a fragment. We channel our imagination, emotions and personality into our avatars. They are for all intents and purposes, a living digital entity (if you can wrap your head around that one
) I miss my tall, white wookie master architect/smuggler. I miss the adventures I had with him. I miss the relaxation that playing him in the SWG universe gave me. The different sense of accomplishment that I can't gain here in real life. And because of that I feel as though I've lost a friend.
To everyone in this thread that have voiced how they feel, that have opened up their mind and hearts to help console one another, I salute you.
I also feel the need to address this "virtual sandbox" classification. As an older gamer and having seen the entire gambit of games that have come out since the early 80s, I will always gravitate towards the games that have a sandbox feeling. Why? Because they leave MUCH more up to the imagination and allow for a much much greater level of flexibility within the gaming environment. After playing nearly every MMO on the market I found somewhat interesting, I fear I will not have another game that I feel is worthy of my hard earned dollar until more sandbox games are made.
Gaming is my hobby and I want my proverbial paintbrushes back!
Beta tester supreme
Hi Dantes,
if all goes well, we get another sandbox experience soon®
I like SciFi the most, i am not really into fantasy games.
I cant stand the 785th version of mage, troll, dwarv and elf casting "lightning thunder" or "necro nebula".
But if a game shows up in that genre, like Vanguard or Africa or some others, i might accept the "little burden" of a fantasy game for the huge advantage to play another sandbox.
I have played E&B as well. It was a sandbox game like SWG once was, that made E&B so great.
E&B had 40K subscribers on its highpoint, they closed it when it was down to 25K.
I remember the freedom of E&B, when i wondered if i go and try to loot some weapons to print, from the Voltoi in Antares, or take my Trader, JE and PW to Aquitaine and shoot Rider Bosses L55 till the dropped the Dark Matter.
Exploring Cygni61, or visiting the Vrix Base on the old Progen Planet (i had neutral Vrix faction).
That was FUN !!!
It was the same fun, when i was moving to SWG and found it the same sandbox.
Heck, there was even NO tutorial ! LMAO !
I was dropped on "noobland" and not even told how to move :P
The first i did was figuring out, what is a "computer character" and what was a "player".
I guess many pi...themself seeing me talking to an NPC ("Hey bud, can you help me?")
LMAO, i WOULD have pi.. my pants seeing this :P
Fortunatly, some1 popped in, with the helper-tag up, tipped me 50K, told me the very first things i need to know...and from then on i was "in Star Wars".
I "founded" my toon, my "Life" there from the very bottom and beginning.
I remember me walking by foot (game had no vehicles that time) 10 KM to finish a mishi.
And today ?
You dump into Tatooine where HAN is eating your ear (aka: Talking you dumb:P), shoving you money, speeder, weapons etc., then sending you out in the wild where you hit the mouse button till you beg for mercy and decide to use your computer for something better then degrading it to a "super nintendo".
SWG pre-CU was a diverse immense bug ridden and unbalanced piece of junk - but fun.
They removed they diversery, the immersive experience, the profession and the fun (for me).
Easy to see whats left: The junk and bugs.
No thanks SoE, i can change my diaper alone already a long time...
Claude
I bought swg for my boyfriend at the time when it first came out. One day, he was gone and i decided i'd try it out. I spent about 2 hours designing my character (no joke
) and then picked bounty hunter as my first goal. I logged in, had no idea what to do, so i took a delivery mission from a rebel npc. Well, i didnt know shuttleports existed, so i started running from Tyrena to the dot on my radar.
When i realized the dot wasnt in the city i was in, i kept running. I still remember the amazement i felt as i started running down the hill from the city and looked over the "world" of Corellia and saw the sun setting in the orange sky. I thought, "Wow, i think i could just run forever in this game". lol. And thats basically what i did. I spent all my time out in the wild, leveling my scout and marksman trees for bh, rarely comming across people, and not knowing what to do when i did.
I still remember the warmth of my first friends in game and being invited to join a growing guild with their own city. I remember spending days shopping for and designing the house they gave me.
What i remember most was going into Theed or Anchorhead and recognizing characters that i had seen before. I started recognizing guilds and their cities. I recognized merchants and their products. I started wearing the clothes that were popular with the people i liked and what seemed "stylish".
The more i learned about the game and the more people i met, the more i was just pulled into this world where i could be anything and do anything and meet anyone, with what felt like no limits.
I havent played a game since that has come close to copying those feelings. When i log out of Wow or GW, i dont feel like im leaving a life behind like i did with swg. And i think thats why i still get emotional when i think about sitting in theed with my guildies just making fun of each other and doing nothing. Or solo grouping with them on endor to grind our jedis, meeting in cantinas to get buffed, and comming to each other's aid when a bh appeard. Or watching the Miss SWG pagent that was held on eclipse and laughing our ass off at the wookiee who won. Or going krayt hunting with my real life fiance ( that i met in swg) and looting lots of pearls that always tuned perfect for me and crap for my him (haha).
I cant forget those memories because they were real friends and real places and i'll never ever go there again.
Someone might read this and think "wow, how incredibley pathetic that they feel that way about a game". Well, i agree its pathetic, but i cant change the way i felt and i think i'll continue to remember swg as long as im alive.
For the Horde!
I think you described perfectly why SWG was so special to you, I, and everyone here.
The galaxy was so big, and so detailed, that even if we didn't want to roleplay, we did so anyway.
I said in another thread the difference between going to see Jabba back in those times, and seeing Jabba today.
These days, you just instantly appear at Jabbas, run through the missions, get the stuff, and never bother seeing Jabba as anything other than content to consume.
But in the old days, even getting to Jabba was an adventure in itself. There was no thing on the map that said, "here is Jabba's secret palace." Jabba's palace was secret knowledge that would be revealed unto us if we were worthy. That in itself made Jabba special. An experience that was not available to all, but only to those who were initiated into its secret mystery.
We didn't even know where it was, and we'd go to the cantina and ask, "anybody here know where I can see Jabba?" And people might say, "I can tell you where it is, but it is a dangerous journey."
We would have to prepare beforehand in Bestine, because it was a dangerous journey to even get to Jabba's palace. We'd have to go across the dune sea with Tuskans and Jawas trying to rob us, and Dewbacks trying to eat us. Every so often we'd camp and tell stories.
But when we found Wayfar, it was like an oasis. We'd find the medical center there, the cloning center, and the cantina. We'd be relieved to find refuge in town, and then go to see Jabba.
But we couldn't just see Jabba, because we had to again prove ourselves. We'd see others go up to see him, but we could not. We'd see people go into the room with the band and the dancing girls and say, "dammit! I want to be there too!" But just as the ones who came before had to go through the experience to be initiated into the mystery, so too did we.
But then when we did do the trials, it actually felt like we achieved something, and shared something in common that no others would know, unless they did what we did. Entrance to the Jabba inner circle was something that felt special. There were times we'd just hang out there, just because it was a place not everyone would be.
I used to /bow to Jabba. We used to all do so. We did so, because it just seemed like an important thing to do.
These days, nobody /bows to Jabba. Jabba is just a computer generated NPC to these people, and they actually think you are stupid if you /bow to him.
I miss those days. Those days when we used to respect the fiction.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Ahhh.... Jabba's Palace! That WAS a special place. Walking into the shadow beyond the great metal portcullis was an invitation to roleplay, even if you walked in alone. I would find myself /emoting to npcs, simply because it felt right and it gave me a sense of satisfaction. If you walked in in the right frame of mind, you could almost feel the arid heat and smell the stink of the place.
It was things like this that were a springboard for the mind. Jabba's Palace was a nugget of content that, once devoured, gave you an appetite for more. And if there was no more provided, you found ways to create your own. I honestly don't know how many newer players I helped guide through gaining Jabba's trust. But each one was another story in my character's long history with the Hutt, the rewards far outwieghing the effort and the patience required to help another person along. And the roleplay and camaraderie this one single destination sparked were priceless.
_______________________
Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
I think you fail to realize that no matter how different you role play your character, that character is still a part of you. Part of you shines through that character. So a Convict MAY play an honorable Jedi, but that means that some part of him wants to be that character. As to men playing women, I never really understood that personally. I don't think that all men who play women in games do it because deep down they want to be women, but it may be for attention. And I don't mean that in a "LOOK AT ME! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!" I mean that in the sense that they want to stand out. They want to be different. 90% of gamers are men (boys), playing a woman character instantly sets them apart. It also lends itself to even more aninimity. You just never know who is playing that Twi'lek dancer. But I don't think gender even matters in MMO's. It's a moot point.
So you talk about whether we like to meet REAL people, or CHARACTERS. I say there is no difference. Every character you meet in an MMO is a sliver of a REAL person. The things that person says and does are part of a REAL person. You may be meeting just a part of them, but they are just as REAL as the person you see in the mirror. They have hopes and dreams and emotions. They may play a character completely opposite them in real life, however that opposite is still part of their personality spectrum, it just may not be one they are comfortable using in the real world. I think my character was a LOT like me. If I were to live in the Star Wars universe, that's who I'd choose to be. That's why I made him that way. He had my wit, my charm (maybe, lol), my ambition. He spoke like me, he had my morals and values. Yeah, not everyone plays like that, that was my choice. Just like I believe if you choose to be evil and run around ganking people all day, you are letting your immaturity shine through, be you 15 or 50. That's not really a bad thing, everybody deserves a little immaturity sometimes. Besides, what would a "virtual world" be without the bad guys. I had enemies on my server that I absolutely HATED, but I have to admit, without them my game wouldn't have been the same. It wouldn't have felt as real.
I personally don't think that knowing your in game friends in real life ruins any kind of immersion. My guild had a Ventrillo server, we all used when we played. I knew everyone's name. I knew where everyone lived. I went drinking with a few when they were my town. It didn't ruin my immersion, it just tied my to their characters as friend even more, cause now I knew the man (or woman) behind the mask.
I also think MMOs serve a very valid purpose in all of our lives. We are animals, we yearn for adventure and excitement. We yearn for danger, for adrenaline. It's part of our chemistry. It's something missing from a LOT of our daily lives. Some people fill this viod with sports, or the military, or a high risk job. But that's not for all of us. Some of us fill it by leading these adventurous lives in MMO's. Be that good or bad is yet to be seen, but at the moment it works. People seek adventure and excitement (I know, a Jedi craves none these things, but they crave Jedi, lol) but the daily 9-5, making dinner for the kids, or homework just doesn't cut it. We need that extra boost of adventure. We weren't designed to be completely comfortable sitting in our houses watching the grass grow. It goes against every natural instinct in our bodies. We need these characters to live out things we can only dream of doing normally.
The Millenium Lee
Beatnik, if I didn't think I knew better, I'd say that you are deliberately blurring and misconstruing what you read here. Your almost intentional lack of comprehension makes me tired just trying to stand in your virtual shoes.
You seem to be unable or unwilling to make the mental leap that allows for more than one function to be alotted to any tool. It is an incontrovertable fact that MMORPGs perform many different functions and give many different opportunities. Which functions we choose to take advantage of and how we use them defines us as players.
Some only sieze onto a single aspect of a game, singlemindedly pursuing a single goal using a single facet. While I find that more than a little simplistic and would go out of my head with boredom, I can't find it in me to condemn a person for playing a game in this fashion. They paid the same ticket price for the ride, and as long as they're not interfering with my enjoyment, they're entitled to enjoy the game any way they like. It doesn't make them any worse or better than I am and I can't justify acting as though it does.
Others, and I'm pretty sure that both Claude and I both fit into this group, prefer to pursue more than a single angle of the games we play. I personally experienced the game on many different levels. There was the PvE game, at which I did well and found hours of enjoyment in pursuing. There was the PvP game, which I dabbled in, finding a great deal of pleasure but only limited success (hairstylists just don't pwn all the time). There was the roleplay, which I pursued with great vigour, much joy and derived much satisfaction in doing. And there were the many WONDERFUL and fascinating people I met behind the characters they played.
Now while many of these facets could be combined to heighten the mutual enjoyment I shared with the people I played along side, there was at no time any blurring of the out of character with the in character. I'm a veteran roleplayer, as I've said. I am very adamant about keeping the lines between fantasy and reality clear. I know from experience that there are people who cannot. So I make sure that those who roleplay with me often know the difference and respect it. I'm not the kind of woman who will ever willingly "put my hands in the crazy". That path leads to drama and pain, both of which I have a serious aversion to.
The people who roleplayed with me got to know two people. They met a fictional character created with much thought and pride, who lived and breathed in the Star Wars galaxy. And then, they met me, the player, the person and the intellect that spawned that character. They at all times were kept aware of which was which. Example:
Noobia: Your insistance on clinging to a doomed cause is futile. If you will not see reason, I will be forced to end your miserable life. Think of it as a mercy killing.
(/tell Floyd) Noobia: ((OOC)) OMG she's so EEEEVUHHLLL!!!! LOL kick her butt, she deserves it! Hey, how's your GF doing? She still sick?
As you can see, there is no room for mistake here. You'd have to be exceptionally stupid to think that I was an imperial loyalist or that Noobia would give a crap about Floyd's sick girlfriend. While these two conversations were happening more or less at the same time, they were seperate and easily distinguishable by anyone with rudimentary reading and reasoning skills. So as you see, the game was a vehicle for more than one activity at the same time. Not very hard to grasp.
So tell me, Beat, what part of this can't you wrap your head around?
((edit to adress a missed point I found to be important))
As for your desire for anonymity, that is simply your way of playing. If while you are in SWG you only wanted people to know the character you created, that was what they got to know. Your real self stayed safe and insulated behind your keyboard. And as long as you didn't mislead anyone, there was nothing wrong with that at all. But you have to understand that not everyone played the game the way you did. And this doesn't make them less than you.
I might feel sad for you because you missed a part of the game (the virtual community aspect) that I found priceless, I don't look down on you for having avoided it. You have your own reasons and your own needs. They are yours, and whether you chose to share them or not, they are valid to you, therefore important. My sadness doesn't change that fact. And along that same logic, my choices or Claude's choices, our needs and our methods, are no less valid and no less important. And by no means are they any more or less right than your own.
_______________________
Kote lo'shebs'ul narit
From Tom Smith's album "And They say I've Got Talent":
Rich Fantasy Lives
Words: © 2004 by Rob Balder - Used with permission
Music: © 2004 by Tom Smith
Rob Balder, creator of the excellent online comic Partially Clips, asked me to write some music to his first original song. We both think it worked out pretty well.
That waitress at Pete's who took so long to seat you,
And left you to stand in the doorway,
With her stringy red hair and her thousand-yard stare,
In her mind, she's the Princess of Norway.
As she takes down your order, she's crossing the fjord, her
White stallion spits foam like a madman.
Many Vikings have died trying to take her as bride,
But her heart is reserved for a bad man.
Rich fantasy lives.
Somehow she survives in a world she contrives.
Inhibited husbands and frustrated wives
Lead rich fantasy lives.
That guy from IT ressurects your PC
With a boredom he barely suppresses.
Though he rarely converses, he has more universes
In his head than you've got addresses.
He wargames through weekends, leads armies and legions.
He doesn't care how well you putted.
He's browsing reality's infinite palette, he's
Seen yours, and yours doesn't cut it.
Rich fantasy lives.
He quietly thrives in a world he contrives.
Techno-drone insects in cubicle hives
Lead rich fantasy lives.
We're piling up fears, but we're out of frontiers.
Some need to escape, but there's nowhere.
Can't go to the Moon, at least any time soon,
But an inner-space trip costs you no fare.
So don't be unkind to a wandering mind,
Just say it again if we missed it.
Some whispering poem was calling us home
To a place we know never existed.
Rich fantasy lives.
Our peace-bonded knives and our hyperspace drives.
Until that steam engine to Hogwarts arrives,
We have rich fantasy lives.
Rich fantasy lives.
Our quests and our tribes and our Babylon Fives.
Until something better than this world arrives,
We'll lead rich fantasy lives.
Rich fantasy lives.
Those are great lyrics Casual. Kudos
The Millenium Lee
Whannnnn Whannnnn dat is the sound of 20 year old babies
Whannnnn Whannnnn dat is the sound of 20 year old babies
Beta tester supreme
What I can't understand is why you feel that knowing these people from a game is better than the other people we live with in the tangible world? Why are you so tenacious at protecting this virtual community thing you like from being declared "fake," or "false?"
It seems to me that people who claim that this "virtual" community is better then the "material" community say so, because people have a tendency to judge others too soon, without getting to know them.
I am arguing that this fact doesn't change, just because its virtual. In fact, I would argue that its easier to prejudge in this "virtual" community.
Say I am a twenty five year old highschool dropout on social welfare, who plays a jedi. Let's say a twenty five year old single woman plays a dancer.
These two can look out for eachother, and have fun together doing missions. They can tell eachother stories, and really enjoy each other's company. In fact, the jedi is thinking this is a nice girl. The dancer is thinking this is a fine man.
Then, the woman asks, "well, what do you do for a living?" The man says, "I'm not employed, and live on social welfare."
So now that we finally have a bit of reality to go on, what is to say that the judgement cannot be just as quick? The guy may indeed be a good guy on hard times, but this doesn't matter to the woman, who automatically assumes he's a vagrant unworthy of her time.
Better yet, what if the high school dropout lies, and says he's an attorney? What if the woman believes this fiction?
You see, I don't think that this "virtual" community doesn't solve the problem of being prejudgemental when trying to meet real people that we'd like as our friends out of the game. It only makes it that much harder to get any reliable truth at all in which to judge.
"Virtual" community is a community on the user's terms, whether or not it is fair to those around the user. In real life, we can't put the coworker on the ignore list, or put the bums on the street on the ignore list. We can't "logout," when we don't want to have to deal with someone, nor do we have any obligation to anyone when we tire of them.
Its better in terms of the power of the user to decide his or her community. But I'm not entirely sure that this helps us grow as individuals. If anything, it creates resentment, bitterness, and stagnation toward others who don't fit into our preconceived notions of what is proper. Its hard to learn how to work through issues when there are no issues with those around us, and when its easy enough to rationalize to ourselves that its "just a game."
In fact, I would argue that the reason this medium is such a bad place for meeting people, is that its too easy to leave. Scratch that. Too easy to force others to leave. Nobody really has a stake in this silliness, and nobody really needs to respect anyone else. If you don't like someone, just put them on the ignore list.
If I had the power to put people that ticked me off on an ignore list, I wouldn't learn half as much, nor would I find true fulfillment nearly as much. Because those are the ones that help me see the world differently, from a new perspective.
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
I thought that was what we were discussing originally when we were talking about living as an "alter ego," or living a "secret life." Because I don't want to be a female in real life. Nor do I want to be a smuggler in real life.
[/quote]
Ok, lets go back to essential definitions.
We have three ways of playing onlinegames:
1. Playing a game. And thats it. Just playing, no social stuff
2. Playing a game being the ones we are, taking place in a virtual community
3. Playing the game as a "hardcore roleplayer", pretending to be someone matching a "wish", eg. Jedi, Dancer etc.
Please note, that playing an Entertainer or Jedi doesnt nessecarily implicates (3), it could be also (1) and (2).
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
Initially, I thought that was what you were saying too. Yet now, it seems as if you don't want to live an alternative life, with others who are playing alternative lives.
It seems that now you are saying you like the medium because it is good to, "extend, both our reach and opportunity to connect with, come to know, and perhaps even like other people."
[/quote]
I didnt say this.
What i said is/was, that i can play the game in many "colors", it depends on what i want.
I am Claude, every1 in the guild knows me as Claude when he is interessting in knowing me as Claude and if im interessted to LET him/she know that i am Claude.
I can decide this new everytime again, whenever someone is asking me.
That makes your arguement about "asking the question" invalid:
Not asking the question is unfair, answering might be. If you DECIDE to answer it.
You could also say "I am a roleplayer living my virtual life here. I am acting within this "illusion". Please understand that any question regarding my life outside this illusion is a taboo and wont be answered."
So what is the way i play the game ?
First of all, i play the game for the game, for having fun within the games "parameter".
Then i play because it is fun to play within a community.
This means being nice to others, having fun, being helpfull.
Then i enjoy people coming to me saying
"They say you are of the best PvP toons on this server, can you train me?"
and
"You are a publish 9 Jedi, can you train me?"
In the latter, i live a role, here it begins.
Now i am not Claude anymore, now i am the "Jedimaster, well known on the server, training the padawans". This is a role, which i do enjoy (who wouldnt).
So at this point, you start to move away from being a player controlling a toon representing you as the player behind the keyboard, from this point on you start to be the Jedi and/or Combat trainer, which you try to align to as the one behind the keyboard, controlling this toon in the given "environment".
The very same happens to successive crafters.
These peoples are not "Nancy" playing an AS anymore, they start to be an AS controlled by "Nancy". I hope the difference is clear.
These people start to live the role "suddenly". Going to bed with thoughs like "I need to make some more of this tomorrow, i need some more comp. layers, some krayt components, some this and that". They in terms of
"I - the AS".
And this clearly where you "live a role".
These are the (for me) three steps of playing a game.
Important is (regarding another part of your prev. posting), that this all can go hand in hand. Its not excluding one of the other gameplays but more floating from one to the other. I can always "versionjump" between (1) (2) and (3).
Even on a minutebase: With alts, with other accounts and even on diff. servers.
Whenever i want.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
So what is it? Do you like these games to create a shared fantasy? Or do we like these games because we want to meet the real people behind the fiction?
I understand the first one. I understand the second one.
But I don't understand how we can expect both, when players want either one or the other.
[/quote]
Both. And both can go along, like said above.
It depends even on the one i act with/to and the situation.
I could be the envy dancer of our guild, everyone adores - but i could be "Claude" to you as my buddy the same time, cuz i've clued you in.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
If I want to play a woman, or play a criminal, some people think its their right to ask whether I really am a woman, or ask what I do for a living.
To me, that's an unfair question to ask. Yet it is a question that we cannot help but ask, when we do this thing to get to know the person behind the character.
[/quote]
Like said above, i think people DO have the right to ask.
Whenever something personal is involved (and this is always the case in an onlinegame) i COULD ask you.
If you ANSWER or not, that is the real question.
And if you decide to NOT answer my question, i must accept this and i need to understand your right of privacy. That is the "unfair" part, if some1 wouldnt understand your right of privacy.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
Because by asking questions about our lives behind the characters, we rob eachother of our shared fiction.
[/quote]
By decision and intention. If you dont want, dont ask...
There is always the "risk" of getting disappointed.
I had the situation more then once, were i was tempted to ask a question - but i simply didnt cuz i wanted to keep the illusion.
Important here is, that the relation to the other player was intended as an illusion and never more. So a question looking behind this illusion must be considered "contraproductive". In this situation, it should be avoided - IF you dont WANT to push the relationship with this other player into RL terrain.
Again, a decision on your own.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
Because if the female is found out to be male, or the jedi is found out to be a criminal on probation, its very hard, if not impossible, to ever view the female or the jedi in the same way.
[/quote]
Yes, this could happen.
This is part of the socialgame.
Something everyone playing an onlinegame, should know: It could happen.
But if you know the terms in advance, you can deal with it - becuz then its in YOUR hands: Ask...or dont....based on what you WANT.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
I understand why we are inquisitive about the player behind the character. Its only natural. Yes, It can lead to good things at times, but it does it at a cost. And the cost is that we can never go back to that innocent alternate fantasy. That masquerade that allows us to live and be treated as something else, which can be found best in online worlds.
[/quote]
But again:
Its up to you, you decide it !
YOu want the masquerade ?
Then never ask the "taboo question".
Live the masquerade and enjoy.
But you can also live the masquerade with toon "A", but ask toon "B" the question.
You can "jump" from "version to version" from "toon to toon", like said before.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
I guess what I am trying to say is that I really don't care about knowing who Claude is, or who you are Azhrarn. Its not because either of you are bad people. You may, in fact, be good people to know "IRL." I also really don't want you knowing about me. Not because I am a bad person to know, and not because I am ashamed of myself. But because I really don't see the point.
[/quote]
And this is ok.
Everyone has the right to decide for himself, who he/she wants to know, who he/she wants to LET know and who not.
You do the same in RL.
You like some1 ?
"Hey, gimme your number, youre cool - lets get something going soon"
You dislike ?
"No offense dude, but youre weired.....move along plz"
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
What is more important to me, and more important when I played Galaxies, was that I played characters. Characters I worked hard to make interesting, believeable, and fun. Characters that would help facilitate the shared fiction of your characters, Claude and Azhrarn.
[/quote]
Well, you are obv. the "type 3" player then.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
I think that's more valuable than finding out who we are, what we do, and figuring out later if we want anything to do with eachother. Because we really don't need online games to do that, do we?
[/quote]
"Might" need.
If you have no chance to meet people in RL due to fulltime work, family etc (which most have that way), you are "in need" to use the "instrument" onlinegaming.
That was, why some here (inc. me) said earlier:
"Its not that we have no lifes etc etc etc, but...."
The "need" is that we have the "way" to use an convenient instrument to accomplish something we might not in RL due to our timerestrictions BECAUSE we are so "busy" in RL.
The 4 hours each night, when the kids in bed, all is done - these 4 hours are something i can spend in slutty clothes in front of my computer, without the need to style up cuz i want to move out.
I simply start the game and have everything in front of me. And my toon is always styled and dressed ... LOL !
Dont get me wrong, im sure we ALL move out and meet our firends from time to time. But please - not every night after i had a rough day at work.
[quote][i]Originally posted by Beatnik59
So what is it you and Claude want?
Do you play these games to portray characters, and be treated like characters?
Or do you play these games to get to know real people, and be treated as your real self, and not as the characters you play?
[/quote]
Like said:
Both.
There are people i like to hang out with because the humans controlling these toons are nice. We talk on teamspeak, we send mails etc.
And there are other player knowing me as "Master XY" seeking advise for combatstrategies or crafting advise (i was a 12pt. doc with one of the highest packs on the server too).
It depends on: But one isnt excluding the other.
Thats the diversity, thats the fun - thats the game.
Well, was:
SoE took away the sandbox. SoE took away the diversity. SoE took away the deeper meaning of it all.
When the once complex and mature sandboxgame became a dull console-clicker, i hit cancel for all of my toons.
Today, they are just a memory.
I think, Beatnik, that you have a bit of a hard time trying to UNDERSTAND things behind "the edge of your plate" (like we say).
Please try to "grab" the vision behind the way people play the game that way. If you can do THIS, you might be able to understand
WHY.
There isnt an "a" or "b" or "c" - there is an "a" !AND! "b" !AND! "c", little but important difference.
In your previous post you said
>>In fact, I would argue that the reason this medium is such a bad place for meeting people,
>>is that its too easy to leave. Scratch that. Too easy to force others to leave. Nobody really has a stake in this silliness,
>>and nobody really needs to respect anyone else. If you don't like someone, just put them on the ignore list.
This is exactly what i mean. You need to learn to look behind your personal horizon.
What would you think, that some1 you DID piss off and who left after that, is sending an apologize a bit later and wants to "come back"?
How much of some1 REALLY interessted is THAT ?
If it is SO easy to "escape", it makes it even more valuable to show backbone.
You could see it with a tunnelview, but then u will miss the beauty of it outside the tunnel....
Claude
Lol, this thread just keeps getting better.
/popcorn
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.
Just a few thoughts..
______________________________________________________________________________________
Beatnik59
What I can't understand is why you feel that knowing these people from a game is better than the other people we live with in the tangible world? Why are you so tenacious at protecting this virtual community thing you like from being declared "fake," or "false?"
It seems to me that people who claim that this "virtual" community is better then the "material" community say so, because people have a tendency to judge others too soon, without getting to know them.
______________________________________________________________________________________
I don't think anyone has claimed that the virtual world is any better than the real world. In fact, in deference to the OP, this thread is dealing with WHY so many people, myself included, have had such a hard time letting go of the virtual world that SWG represented. We understand that this is not necessarily a good thing, so we are exploring the possible reasons why.
This introspection and discussion, looking at the different aspects and facets of SWG and gaming in general, I think is necessary. From a psychological standpoint, I think it represents a very healthy and natural response, and ultimately can be a platform from which to move on.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Beatnik59
Say I am a twenty five year old highschool dropout on social welfare, who plays a jedi. Let's say a twenty five year old single woman plays a dancer.
These two can look out for eachother, and have fun together doing missions. They can tell eachother stories, and really enjoy each other's company. In fact, the jedi is thinking this is a nice girl. The dancer is thinking this is a fine man.
Then, the woman asks, "well, what do you do for a living?" The man says, "I'm not employed, and live on social welfare."
So now that we finally have a bit of reality to go on, what is to say that the judgement cannot be just as quick? The guy may indeed be a good guy on hard times, but this doesn't matter to the woman, who automatically assumes he's a vagrant unworthy of her time.
Better yet, what if the high school dropout lies, and says he's an attorney? What if the woman believes this fiction?
You see, I don't think that this "virtual" community doesn't solve the problem of being prejudgemental when trying to meet real people that we'd like as our friends out of the game. It only makes it that much harder to get any reliable truth at all in which to judge.
___________________________________________________________________________________
While this might be a valid concern, how is this any different from the "materiel" world? There are con men and women out there as well, and the concequences just as high if not higher. How do you think people in abusive relationships feel? Just because it can happen in the virtual world, it doesn't mean that it can't happen in the material world, so I think this argument just doesn't hold much water.
While the virtual world may give the unscrupulous a greater ability to mask their intentions, it also makes it more difficult to really harm people. In this way, you might even give the virtual world kudos for in essance having a training ground to spot these kind of people before they hurt you in real life. Unscrupulous people often make telling mistakes when they think no one is watching, or are hidden behind the annonymity of a virtual facade.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Beatnik59
Its better in terms of the power of the user to decide his or her community. But I'm not entirely sure that this helps us grow as individuals. If anything, it creates resentment, bitterness, and stagnation toward others who don't fit into our preconceived notions of what is proper. Its hard to learn how to work through issues when there are no issues with those around us, and when its easy enough to rationalize to ourselves that its "just a game."
In fact, I would argue that the reason this medium is such a bad place for meeting people, is that its too easy to leave. Scratch that. Too easy to force others to leave. Nobody really has a stake in this silliness, and nobody really needs to respect anyone else. If you don't like someone, just put them on the ignore list.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Forgive me if I am being presumptuous, but I am getting the feeling that you are perhaps making this argument because you have either been "burnt" by this kind of activity, or fear being so. I think you may be projecting your own fears here, and in doing so, perhaps you have denied that it has any kind of value, so that it cannot hurt you.
Just because it is a game, does not lessen the impact that it has on our psyche. In much the same way that people writing letters to each other can form a bond, so too can people playing together in an MMO. The medium is not important, the bond and the feelings are.
The medium (SWG) in this case allowed for a far more intense bond than I think many people expected. Character avatars were flexible enough that it allowed us the freedom to more fully "personify" ourselves within the medium. No matter what many people think, I personally believe (being a veteran role-player for almost 30 years) that all avatars are a reflection of the person. I pesonally take great joy in exploring apsects of myself that I would not do otherwise. Though because I believe in this connection with the avatar, I do not PvP, as I see this as violence to another persons psyche.
May i ask how old are you ?
Claude
Old enough to not take a game too seriously. >_<
Ico
Oh, cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones. It bones for thee.