The part I don't understand is when people say they won't play a f2p because it brings in the masses and opens the door to p2w, when p2p hasn't been a barrier to jerks and the game allready has a cs which means the door is allready open to p2w. I don't get it.
But I guess I don't need to get it. Only they do.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
I believe a free to play from the start MMORPG can't be good, the cash invades the overall design too significantly for me to enjoy it.
and i believe "good" is subjective.
Marvel Heroes is f2p from the start .. it is a very fun game, and a lot of other here (not just me) like it. Sure, you won't enjoy it. No problem. We don't have time to enjoy everything under the sun anyway.
If I was jaded, I'd say this is a troll fest. We can't agree what MMO is, much less a complicated topic like this. Let's start with 'can we agree what an MMORPG is' and work our way to discussions that are a bit more thought intensive.
I believe a free to play from the start MMORPG can't be good, the cash invades the overall design too significantly for me to enjoy it.
and i believe "good" is subjective.
Yeppers. That's how it works; pretty basic stuff, lol.
See Venge's post for further clarification.
My goodness.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
The part I don't understand is when people say they won't play a f2p because it brings in the masses and opens the door to p2w, when p2p hasn't been a barrier to jerks and the game allready has a cs which means the door is allready open to p2w. I don't get it.
But I guess I don't need to get it. Only they do.
Thats true the door is opened but I dont think every buy to play mmo does it, I played the secret world for a little while and it didnt seem to be at the time, and im currently playing gw2 and im not seeing any pay to win.
2016? Try since like 2008 at the least but I'd put 2004 as the beginning of the end for the genre. Everyone jumping on the WoW bandwagon and long became the days between innovative and inventive MMO's getting produced. I used to visit this site 20+ times a day now I'm lucky to visit it 2 times a month. MMO's are dead to me and nothing on the horizon is changing that. My new found love has become digital CCG's and ARPG's.
Have to say I agree with your date of the beginning of the decline. All of the money Blizzard made didn't benefit me in any way.
MMORPG players are often like Hobbits: They don't like Adventures
If I was jaded, I'd say this is a troll fest. We can't agree what MMO is, much less a complicated topic like this. Let's start with 'can we agree what an MMORPG is' and work our way to discussions that are a bit more thought intensive.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
If I was jaded, I'd say this is a troll fest. We can't agree what MMO is, much less a complicated topic like this. Let's start with 'can we agree what an MMORPG is' and work our way to discussions that are a bit more thought intensive.
No. Why do you think it is even feasible to have consensus on any internet forum?
I say let's just not agree and continue with the fun.
It's not the games getting worse, it's the people playing them that have gotten worse. That I think we all can agree on. And by people, I mean those who won't spend money to pay for their gaming time. Because those who can't don't play or complain about P2W.
P2P is dead because it is not nearly as profitable for companies and is too high risk these days. Stop trying to push the agenda that those that enjoy F2P games and can look past some stuff as being somehow "bad". If anything the people playing have become overly jaded and can't look past their own shit with too many games. You sound like a burnout that just wants the same shit churned out over and over or something.
You do know P2P games died because of a shrinking audience wanting to fork over $ for multiple games among other things.
Stop trying to push t he agenda that people cannot accept the old style of paying for mmorpgs.
The problem is not you or me. The problem is the whales paying so much money, game studio realize they just make so much money as long as there are whales paying them.
Even in gw2, which is the least p2w game of them all, I have couple guildmates spending 500$ every month. On one of Nexon's game my guildmate spend 1000+ per month.
It's not the games getting worse, it's the people playing them that have gotten worse. That I think we all can agree on. And by people, I mean those who won't spend money to pay for their gaming time. Because those who can't don't play or complain about P2W.
P2P is dead because it is not nearly as profitable for companies and is too high risk these days. Stop trying to push the agenda that those that enjoy F2P games and can look past some stuff as being somehow "bad". If anything the people playing have become overly jaded and can't look past their own shit with too many games. You sound like a burnout that just wants the same shit churned out over and over or something.
You do know P2P games died because of a shrinking audience wanting to fork over $ for multiple games among other things.
Stop trying to push t he agenda that people cannot accept the old style of paying for mmorpgs.
The problem is not you or me. The problem is the whales paying so much money, game studio realize they just make so much money as long as there are whales paying them.
Even in gw2, which is the least p2w game of them all, I have couple guildmates spending 500$ every month. On one of Nexon's game my guildmate spend 1000+ per month.
The whales is another reason why MMORPGs are screwed up. Its become a Wallet War.
Never in my MMO history have I had as many choices in MMO games that I actually want to play. Bouncing around from ESO, to SWTOR, to LotRO, to Marvel, TSW... I'm feeling a bit whiplashed, to tell the truth.
100% anecdotal, true. But that's plenty enough for me to say I don't agree.
Stop trying to push t he agenda that people cannot accept the old style of paying for mmorpgs.
The problem is not you or me. The problem is the whales paying so much money, game studio realize they just make so much money as long as there are whales paying them.
It is only a problem if you care how other play their games (or you play competitive pvp).
Whales give us free games to hop around ... so what is not to like?
I did provide examples and so did this other person krayen above,
No you stated your opinion - as did krayen and everyone else in this thread for that matter.
Nor do, I suggest, your opinions relate specifically to 2016.
Now if your staement had been "mmorpgs have gotten worse in the last 10 years or whatever" - but that is not what you suggested.
Bottomline - in my opinion - things have not gotten any worse in 2016 and, again imo, things have improved.
And if the responses in this thread are representative of the mythical majority - the majority does not agree with you either.
No I stated my experiences as to what people want in an mmorpg, I dont care if you think its my opinion or not, bottomline in your opinion vs my experiences. You mean people who are likely devs? Lol those are a minority.
Well in my experience as to what people want in an mmorpg things have not gotten any worse in 2016. So that proves it and you are wrong because - you must agree - my experience is better than yours.
/sarcasm off
We all get what you think. Sorry if so many other posters in this thread simply do not agree with you but to come out with "your experience is better than mine" is - to put it simply - conceited, dismissive, high handed.
/rant off
You put forward a posit concerning 2016. That is fine. People have responded negatively for the most part. Yet you continue to try and wind everyone up. Now collectively we are, by and large a polite, sometimes highly opinionated but also collectively smart folk with a wide ranging experiences.
You are welcome to your view. Or opinion. Or experience. Or fantasy. Whatever. Proved - in your mind and to your satisfaction - by whatever thought process you have applied. And no one is bothered. Suggesting that you are "the one" and things are "this way" because "you say so" - can your mind be that closed? Careful you don't fall off your horse, looks like a long way down to me.
Can we just agree that the state of mmorpgs have gotten worse in 2016 so far?
No, we can not. Reading through this thread it seems we can not agree on anything for that matter, let alone something so specific. On a more serious note, no, we can not.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
Stop trying to push t he agenda that people cannot accept the old style of paying for mmorpgs.
The problem is not you or me. The problem is the whales paying so much money, game studio realize they just make so much money as long as there are whales paying them.
It is only a problem if you care how other play their games (or you play competitive pvp).
Whales give us free games to hop around ... so what is not to like?
Imagine you are playing Wow and the quests are like killing 40 boars with each boar taking 5 minutes to kill.
"or" pay 100$ and you only need to kill 20 boars each taking 1 minutes to kill.
Some of the games are artificially made too difficult or too grindy unless you pay.
Can we just agree that the state of mmorpgs have gotten worse in 2016 so far?
No, we can not. Reading through this thread it seems we can not agree on anything for that matter, let alone something so specific. On a more serious note, no, we can not.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
I don't agree with you that we can't agree on anything.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
IMO (and many others as i can see) MMO gaming is just another way for companies to farm money now. NONE of the MMO game development companies in existence atm are run by gamers. They are all run by accountants and marketing managers and anything but gamers. Game companies that try and be about the gamer are seen as threats by the bigger companies who then buy them out and cancel development , or if its still in early stages , steer development toward cash shop items.
until they are forced (and they will require force ,a full boycott of mmos, for this to happen ) to change business models, this will only get worse. The only way to stop them is to starve them ...I know it sounds crazy but just straight out stop playing mmos altogether, thats pretty much what i have done. At this point i cant help but feel like its a "shame on me for letting them fool me again " type of situation.
Stop trying to push t he agenda that people cannot accept the old style of paying for mmorpgs.
The problem is not you or me. The problem is the whales paying so much money, game studio realize they just make so much money as long as there are whales paying them.
It is only a problem if you care how other play their games (or you play competitive pvp).
Whales give us free games to hop around ... so what is not to like?
Imagine you are playing Wow and the quests are like killing 40 boars with each boar taking 5 minutes to kill.
"or" pay 100$ and you only need to kill 20 boars each taking 1 minutes to kill.
Some of the games are artificially made too difficult or too grindy unless you pay.
Don't have to imagine .. there are plenty of fun f2p games to hop around. Marvel Heroes, warframe, PoE, .....
I did provide examples and so did this other person krayen above,
No you stated your opinion - as did krayen and everyone else in this thread for that matter.
Nor do, I suggest, your opinions relate specifically to 2016.
Now if your staement had been "mmorpgs have gotten worse in the last 10 years or whatever" - but that is not what you suggested.
Bottomline - in my opinion - things have not gotten any worse in 2016 and, again imo, things have improved.
And if the responses in this thread are representative of the mythical majority - the majority does not agree with you either.
No I stated my experiences as to what people want in an mmorpg, I dont care if you think its my opinion or not, bottomline in your opinion vs my experiences. You mean people who are likely devs? Lol those are a minority.
Well in my experience as to what people want in an mmorpg things have not gotten any worse in 2016. So that proves it and you are wrong because - you must agree - my experience is better than yours.
/sarcasm off
We all get what you think. Sorry if so many other posters in this thread simply do not agree with you but to come out with "your experience is better than mine" is - to put it simply - conceited, dismissive, high handed.
/rant off
You put forward a posit concerning 2016. That is fine. People have responded negatively for the most part. Yet you continue to try and wind everyone up. Now collectively we are, by and large a polite, sometimes highly opinionated but also collectively smart folk with a wide ranging experiences.
You are welcome to your view. Or opinion. Or experience. Or fantasy. Whatever. Proved - in your mind and to your satisfaction - by whatever thought process you have applied. And no one is bothered. Suggesting that you are "the one" and things are "this way" because "you say so" - can your mind be that closed? Careful you don't fall off your horse, looks like a long way down to me.
You need to calm down there you sound like your in some moral highground far more then me people behind a keyboard love to pretend they are in some moral high ground when they really arent, and I never said anyone should believe me you missed the entire point in that explanation of my experiences. And by the way this could of easily been said in a few paragraphs, sounds to me your reaching. My mind is far from closed, like I said I know my experiences.
It's not the games getting worse, it's the people playing them that have gotten worse. That I think we all can agree on. And by people, I mean those who won't spend money to pay for their gaming time. Because those who can't don't play or complain about P2W.
P2P is dead because it is not nearly as profitable for companies and is too high risk these days. Stop trying to push the agenda that those that enjoy F2P games and can look past some stuff as being somehow "bad". If anything the people playing have become overly jaded and can't look past their own shit with too many games. You sound like a burnout that just wants the same shit churned out over and over or something.
You do know P2P games died because of a shrinking audience wanting to fork over $ for multiple games among other things.
Stop trying to push t he agenda that people cannot accept the old style of paying for mmorpgs.
The problem is not you or me. The problem is the whales paying so much money, game studio realize they just make so much money as long as there are whales paying them.
Even in gw2, which is the least p2w game of them all, I have couple guildmates spending 500$ every month. On one of Nexon's game my guildmate spend 1000+ per month.
Wow thats quite a bit of money for an mmorpg for any game really. Doesnt make sense but gw2 there isnt pay to win stuff really and really no need to spend that much at all.
It's not the games getting worse, it's the people playing them that have gotten worse. That I think we all can agree on. And by people, I mean those who won't spend money to pay for their gaming time. Because those who can't don't play or complain about P2W.
P2P is dead because it is not nearly as profitable for companies and is too high risk these days. Stop trying to push the agenda that those that enjoy F2P games and can look past some stuff as being somehow "bad". If anything the people playing have become overly jaded and can't look past their own shit with too many games. You sound like a burnout that just wants the same shit churned out over and over or something.
You do know P2P games died because of a shrinking audience wanting to fork over $ for multiple games among other things.
Stop trying to push t he agenda that people cannot accept the old style of paying for mmorpgs.
The problem is not you or me. The problem is the whales paying so much money, game studio realize they just make so much money as long as there are whales paying them.
Even in gw2, which is the least p2w game of them all, I have couple guildmates spending 500$ every month. On one of Nexon's game my guildmate spend 1000+ per month.
Wow thats quite a bit of money for an mmorpg for any game really. Doesnt make sense but gw2 there isnt pay to win stuff really and really no need to spend that much at all.
Obviously it dont' make sense. Since 2 people is paying more than the whole guild combine. Which is the main problem. As long as those kind of people exist, cash shop game will always thrive.
Funny I'd agree that the state has gone to the shitter nearly 5 years back when AAAs suddenly tried to out-"Asian" the Asian grinders with a more craptacular pay2win model. So much so that I'd rather come back to Asian titles instead.
It's not the games getting worse, it's the people playing them that have gotten worse. That I think we all can agree on. And by people, I mean those who won't spend money to pay for their gaming time. Because those who can't don't play or complain about P2W.
P2P is dead because it is not nearly as profitable for companies and is too high risk these days. Stop trying to push the agenda that those that enjoy F2P games and can look past some stuff as being somehow "bad". If anything the people playing have become overly jaded and can't look past their own shit with too many games. You sound like a burnout that just wants the same shit churned out over and over or something.
You do know P2P games died because of a shrinking audience wanting to fork over $ for multiple games among other things.
Stop trying to push t he agenda that people cannot accept the old style of paying for mmorpgs.
The problem is not you or me. The problem is the whales paying so much money, game studio realize they just make so much money as long as there are whales paying them.
Even in gw2, which is the least p2w game of them all, I have couple guildmates spending 500$ every month. On one of Nexon's game my guildmate spend 1000+ per month.
Wow thats quite a bit of money for an mmorpg for any game really. Doesnt make sense but gw2 there isnt pay to win stuff really and really no need to spend that much at all.
Obviously it dont' make sense. Since 2 people is paying more than the whole guild combine. Which is the main problem. As long as those kind of people exist, cash shop game will always thrive.
Thats true, that is a ton of cash to spend on nearly nothing with starving people in the world just saying. would be cool if we had a really good mmorpg that had a cash shop where you can spend that much and the company would donate it towards something to help the world.
Comments
The part I don't understand is when people say they won't play a f2p because it brings in the masses and opens the door to p2w, when p2p hasn't been a barrier to jerks and the game allready has a cs which means the door is allready open to p2w. I don't get it.
But I guess I don't need to get it. Only they do.
Marvel Heroes is f2p from the start .. it is a very fun game, and a lot of other here (not just me) like it. Sure, you won't enjoy it. No problem. We don't have time to enjoy everything under the sun anyway.
I self identify as a monkey.
See Venge's post for further clarification.
My goodness.
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb
What do you mean by agree?
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
No. Why do you think it is even feasible to have consensus on any internet forum?
I say let's just not agree and continue with the fun.
Even in gw2, which is the least p2w game of them all, I have couple guildmates spending 500$ every month. On one of Nexon's game my guildmate spend 1000+ per month.
100% anecdotal, true. But that's plenty enough for me to say I don't agree.
Whales give us free games to hop around ... so what is not to like?
/sarcasm off
We all get what you think. Sorry if so many other posters in this thread simply do not agree with you but to come out with "your experience is better than mine" is - to put it simply - conceited, dismissive, high handed.
/rant off
You put forward a posit concerning 2016. That is fine. People have responded negatively for the most part. Yet you continue to try and wind everyone up. Now collectively we are, by and large a polite, sometimes highly opinionated but also collectively smart folk with a wide ranging experiences.
You are welcome to your view. Or opinion. Or experience. Or fantasy. Whatever. Proved - in your mind and to your satisfaction - by whatever thought process you have applied. And no one is bothered. Suggesting that you are "the one" and things are "this way" because "you say so" - can your mind be that closed? Careful you don't fall off your horse, looks like a long way down to me.
Can we just agree that the state of mmorpgs have gotten worse in 2016 so far?
No, we can not. Reading through this thread it seems we can not agree on anything for that matter, let alone something so specific.
On a more serious note, no, we can not.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
"or" pay 100$ and you only need to kill 20 boars each taking 1 minutes to kill.
Some of the games are artificially made too difficult or too grindy unless you pay.
I don't agree with you that we can't agree on anything.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
until they are forced (and they will require force ,a full boycott of mmos, for this to happen ) to change business models, this will only get worse. The only way to stop them is to starve them ...I know it sounds crazy but just straight out stop playing mmos altogether, thats pretty much what i have done. At this point i cant help but feel like its a "shame on me for letting them fool me again " type of situation.