Charge Back and Refunds

JohnP0100 · March 2016

More evidence why 'we delivered PTU and therefore delivered what was promised' isn't true.

Bensday with Batgirl & Ben episode 45

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EFyBWMViKw&feature=youtu.be&t=18m34s&ab_channel=NicholeD%27Angelo

Q: Do you have a TENTATIVE list of features and content that when it's in place you can say, this is the PTU?

A: Well we... so two things there, yes we do have the... VISION LIST... the... here are all the things that we need to have to make the game (air quotes) RELEASED, uhm, which is... I... probably not in a position to share that right now but it's... it's, you know you probably have to have all the careers, mining, exploration, uh, passenger travel and so on and so on, you have to have all the SHIPS, you have to have, uh, you know X Y Z, things we've PROMISED so... we... we... we keep very very close track of that in confluence, ah, you know, here's all the things we've TALKED ABOUT, here's where they are, uhm, and, you know, that... that's just you know... you know, start at the very very early part of the project was coming up with that list and then building it out to developers as we go along. You (mumble) doing mining and then once that's done (mumble) and that's all part of the production process, uh, uhm... does that answer that question?

I read the transcript and watched the video (aside from the quality of delivery which was absolute trash) and all I can gather is that a CIG employee doesn't know what will be in release / PTU. I think. Godspeed if you try to understand it more.

Brenics · March 2016

@JohnP0100 Maybe am just too old now but in my younger days and after watching Ben, we use to call this bullshitting the people with bullshit on top of bullshit.

JohnP0100 · March 2016

The hilarious part is that the bullshitting isn't even that good.

Smintar · March 2016

So I have been reading most of what you guys say I bought my package in Jan and to say the least Im not happy with it. It seem s they keep putting a little here and there but going no where and I have not been following it all that well so best advice for a charge back please Thxs

Talonsin · March 2016

Smintar said:

So I have been reading most of what you guys say I bought my package in Jan and to say the least Im not happy with it. It seem s they keep putting a little here and there but going no where and I have not been following it all that well so best advice for a charge back please Thxs

Well you can be rest assured they are devoting most of their resources into the single player game which is due out early next year. Rumor is they cant finish the game on what they currently have plus reduced funding from players so they have shifted focus on the single player game which they will charge money for and bring in more cash.

If you are waiting for the MMO, you have a very long wait, multiple years of wait. The current PU only sits 24 players per instance from what I know and that took them years to bring that up from 16.

JohnP0100 · March 2016

Smintar said:

So I have been reading most of what you guys say I bought my package in Jan and to say the least Im not happy with it. It seem s they keep putting a little here and there but going no where and I have not been following it all that well so best advice for a charge back please Thxs

Best advice would be to talk to your CIG / Bank.

Ask CIG for a refund and wait for a reply.
If no reply after 2 weeks, talk to your bank and include the email you sent to CIG and say 'No response after 2 weeks'.
If CIG flat out denies a refund or drag their feet, inform them that you'll do a charge back. You'll probably get some threatening emails from CIG. Include them in your communication with your bank. Banks usually don't like their customers being threatened by a merchant.
Go through the charge back process; your bank will have a standard form / process for this.
Include the references I have made in this thread - read the 1st post and copy-paste whatever you want.

Last I heard, VISA has a note that says 'Something is of concern, fast track any charge back with this company (CIG)'.

mr1602 · April 2016

With the latest 10FTC confirming the fact that CIG will not deliver what they promised (only a vague 'it might happen later'), I believe people will ask for refunds / chargebacks. Is the OP still around?

Information seems standard stuff when it comes to charge backs and the links still works. It'll be a waste to lose it all.

Erillion · April 2016

mr1602 said:

With the latest 10FTC confirming the fact that CIG will not deliver what they promised (only a vague 'it might happen later'), I believe people will ask for refunds / chargebacks. Is the OP still around?

Information seems standard stuff when it comes to charge backs and the links still works. It'll be a waste to lose it all.

Or one could wait until launch day and see what will be in there and what will not be in there.

That CIG "will not deliver what they promised" can be assessed on that day and not sooner. Until then its only speculation.

Personally I think that not everything will be there on launch day. Its a question of priorities. I guess they concentrate more on having a game working well and less on e.g. "all 100 promised systems will be in the game on launch day". But thats the project manager in me speaking - the one that juggles the PM triangle: time, resources and - in this case most relevant - SCOPE.

Will be interesting when they proclaim the "Alpha" to be a "feature complete" Alpha and move on to Beta. Then we may get a clearer picture if 100 % (or less) of the Stretch Goals will make it into the game.

W.r.t. refunds ... anything beyond the first 14 days is a voluntary refund anyway ... and i am not surprised that after 3 years of voluntary refunds CIG has now called an end to that voluntary action. Most other crowdfunding projects do not allow ANY refunds at all after a certain short period of time. Understandable - as a significant amount of the funds have been used already.

W.r.t. chargebacks .... i am not an expert on chargebacks .... i know its a rather controversial topic .... personally i get the impression that its mostly used by grey market gamblers to cut their losses after CIG has started to crack down on that grey market.

Have fun

rodarin · April 2016

Erillion said:

mr1602 said:

With the latest 10FTC confirming the fact that CIG will not deliver what they promised (only a vague 'it might happen later'), I believe people will ask for refunds / chargebacks. Is the OP still around?

Information seems standard stuff when it comes to charge backs and the links still works. It'll be a waste to lose it all.

Or one could wait until launch day and see what will be in there and what will not be in there.

That CIG "will not deliver what they promised" can be assessed on that day and not sooner. Until then its only speculation.

Personally I think that not everything will be there on launch day. Its a question of priorities. I guess they concentrate more on having a game working well and less on e.g. "all 100 promised systems will be in the game on launch day". But thats the project manager in me speaking - the one that juggles the PM triangle: time, resources and - in this case most relevant - SCOPE.

Will be interesting when they proclaim the "Alpha" to be a "feature complete" Alpha and move on to Beta. Then we may get a clearer picture if 100 % (or less) of the Stretch Goals will make it into the game.

W.r.t. refunds ... anything beyond the first 14 days is a voluntary refund anyway ... and i am not surprised that after 3 years of voluntary refunds CIG has now called an end to that voluntary action. Most other crowdfunding projects do not allow ANY refunds at all after a certain short period of time. Understandable - as a significant amount of the funds have been used already.

W.r.t. chargebacks .... i am not an expert on chargebacks .... i know its a rather controversial topic .... personally i get the impression that its mostly used by grey market gamblers to cut their losses after CIG has started to crack down on that grey market.

Have fun

So you basically want people to 'loan' him money now? They backed a guy who made claims, those claims now, admitted by the guy himself, will not be met on launch day. Which was the original deadline for the claims he made.

What is going ot get really interesting is if the hype for this thing completely craters and everyone who bought ships ('donated' money to get ships) all start charging back all those ship purchases....errr donations. And then other 'legit' people finally see whats going on and they charge back their 'donations'. A run on the bank so to speak.

If they get charged back a few million and lose all those grey market 'whales' what does that do to the future of the game?

I suspect this development is a house of cards and something like that would simply topple it over. Thats why they have not been nearly as 'open' as people claim. But things are so bad now that for the past 4 or 6 months its been one concession after another and a lot of 'we arent doing this' or we cant do that' or 'we are going to do this because it is easier' type speeches.You do that when you are in a hurry, not when youre still trying to make (and released the most 'ambitious' game ever. Which I said before that word 'ambitious' is completely meaningless.

If Steven Hawking started a crowdfund campaign to make a time machine and claimed he needed 10 billion to do it how much would he raise? And we are talking about someone whose credentials are so far ahead of Chris Roberts in their respective fields its not even a contest. SO Hawking gives out a bunch of math has a bunch of video blogs explaining it. (not a single other person comprehends what he is saying but wait..hes fricking Steven Hawking he is smarter than all of us combined). So you have a bunch of 'regular genius astro physicists' saying its impossible but you have Hawing who is smarter than all of them saying it CAN be done. The critics rail on him and the Hawking supporters start using 'this is the most ambitious undertaking in the history of mankind'. So as smart as Hawking is do you really think he could make a time machine? (forget that he himself knows he couldnt either because that is basically the point). What if he raised 50 billion (by selling pictures of little HG Wells time machines on line)? Still think it would happen?

Now the difference is that Hawking would more than likely actually invent or discover something complete unknown with those resources. While Roberts hasnt done anything other than claim he rebuilt an engine (which still hasnt actually been proven yet).

A little far fetched but pretty apt. Or just fill in anyone who is aleader in their field that asks for money to do something "impossible'' but ''ambitious''.

Erillion · April 2016

rodarin said:

So you basically want people to 'loan' him money now?

--> Nope. CIG is still bringing in consistently around 2.2 M$ in a month with lower income. In a good month before X-mas it was more than 5 M$. With an estimated burn-rate of 3 M$ per month (you find detailed estimates posted by me elsewhere in this subforum) and a monthly average over the year of around the same number i do not really see much of a need to encourage people to spend extra money. The "normal" growth in backers seems to cover this adequately.

They backed a guy who made claims, those claims now, admitted by the guy himself, will not be met on launch day. Which was the original deadline for the claims he made.

--> This is unusal for a crowdfunding game and/or a MMO ... HOW ?

What is going ot get really interesting is if the hype for this thing completely craters and everyone who bought ships ('donated' money to get ships) all start charging back all those ship purchases....errr donations. And then other 'legit' people finally see whats going on and they charge back their 'donations'. A run on the bank so to speak.

If they get charged back a few million and lose all those grey market 'whales' what does that do to the future of the game?

--> Not much. If they lose a few million they have about 5 %ish less budget.

I suspect this development is a house of cards and something like that would simply topple it over. Thats why they have not been nearly as 'open' as people claim. But things are so bad now that for the past 4 or 6 months its been one concession after another and a lot of 'we arent doing this' or we cant do that' or 'we are going to do this because it is easier' type speeches.

--> Feel free to link to these speeches. If I have found out one thing here ... it is often amazing how different people can watch the same videos and come to completely different conclusions.

You do that when you are in a hurry, not when youre still trying to make (and released the most 'ambitious' game ever. Which I said before that word 'ambitious' is completely meaningless.

If Steven Hawking started a crowdfund campaign to make a time machine and claimed he needed 10 billion to do it how much would he raise?

--> IMHO 10 billion if it would be allowed to occur. Which would not happen, because the legal and national security implications of it would stop such a campaign in its tracks from day 1 (and the research will continue as a Black Project ... with 10 billion extra just to be sure).

And we are talking about someone whose credentials are so far ahead of Chris Roberts in their respective fields its not even a contest. SO Hawking gives out a bunch of math has a bunch of video blogs explaining it. (not a single other person comprehends what he is saying but wait..hes fricking Steven Hawking he is smarter than all of us combined). So you have a bunch of 'regular genius astro physicists' saying its impossible but you have Hawing who is smarter than all of them saying it CAN be done. The critics rail on him and the Hawking supporters start using 'this is the most ambitious undertaking in the history of mankind'. So as smart as Hawking is do you really think he could make a time machine? (forget that he himself knows he couldnt either because that is basically the point). What if he raised 50 billion (by selling pictures of little HG Wells time machines on line)? Still think it would happen?

--> Someone would try and do a best effort project. With CERN Mark II build with that money and new physics being discovered with it ... like in the past .... LETS TRY !

--> replace Stephen Hawking with Christopher Columbus and re-think the example ;-)

Now the difference is that Hawking would more than likely actually invent or discover something complete unknown with those resources.

--> I agree.

While Roberts hasnt done anything other than claim he rebuilt an engine (which still hasnt actually been proven yet).

--> I disagree. Example for new approach: 64 bit 3D engine. e.g. this opinion of a someone else in this field: http://massivelyop.com/2015/10/21/ascents-lead-dev-offers-insight-on-the-star-citizen-controversy/

A little far fetched but pretty apt. Or just fill in anyone who is aleader in their field that asks for money to do something "impossible'' but ''ambitious''.

--> I'm in. Yesterdays "impossible" is today's mainstream technology and entertainment.

--> Have fun

psiic · April 2016

I look at it this way I am no fan of CIG, but all of the people in this thread knew there was a risk involved in backing this game development. Most of us are not children, we are consenting adults who knowingly made this purchase well aware of the risks. Was this a bad decision to back this game? Probably so. Will the original backers ever receive the open world, massive multiplayer persistent space exploration game we were promised? Probably not. Will I try and get my money back because I made a bad decision? No

TalulaRose · April 2016

psiic said:

I look at it this way I am no fan of CIG, but all of the people in this thread knew there was a risk involved in backing this game development. Most of us are not children, we are consenting adults who knowingly made this purchase well aware of the risks. Was this a bad decision to back this game? Probably so. Will the original backers ever receive the open world, massive multiplayer persistent space exploration game we were promised? Probably not. Will I try and get my money back because I made a bad decision? No

Decisions were made based on the words of Chris Roberts. There is even a quote of him calling bullshit to not delivering. If he had said up front he wont deliver and then someone decided to proceed to spend money, then yes it was a bad decision. But this is not the case.

Only bad decision I see is the one to walk away from your money because you feel you made a bad decision and then trying to look like the bigger person at the same time. I just lol at this type of thinking.

millions of sheople.......$$ to the bank all day every day.

FlyByKnight · April 2016

Anybody who backed Star Citizen and hasn't got their money back by now... you deserve and earned that withdrawal from your finances. Please take this gift:

Image: http://images.landofnod.com/is/image/LandOfNod/Letter_Giant_Enough_L_232165_LL/$web_zoom$&wid=550&hei=550&/130831065658/not-giant-enough-letter-l.jpg

MikePt · April 2016

psiic said:

I look at it this way I am no fan of CIG, but all of the people in this thread knew there was a risk involved in backing this game development. Most of us are not children, we are consenting adults who knowingly made this purchase well aware of the risks. Was this a bad decision to back this game? Probably so. Will the original backers ever receive the open world, massive multiplayer persistent space exploration game we were promised? Probably not. Will I try and get my money back because I made a bad decision? No

And your let them go away with it ? If I where you I at least would like to see how those money burn in their pockets. [mod edit]

rodarin · April 2016

I have about a thousand hours in Ascent I am acquainted with Jam and his game.

But what he said doesnt change or 'prove' anything. He actually makes a lot of the critics points pretty clear. And sides with them on pretty much all of them.

But again that is a 6 month old article, so presumably they had the 64 bit (rebuilt) engine 'working' then. So why hasnt it been implemented yet? He basically broke down all the problems it causes and is probably why they havent done it yet. So either they did rebuild it and it still doesnt work, or they realized that it was a waste of time and ,money but claiming they did would buy them some time, or none of the above. Who really knows? For such an 'open' development no one really knows anything. Mostly because stuff changes on the hour it seems.

But it is VERY conspicous that Roberts used the exact term in his last video blog as Jam did in that article

Shipping an initial “minimum viable product” and adding the rest of the cool bits with expansion packs and DLC.

So it probably wouldnt surprise me if There was some quid pro quo going on between these guys now. It certainly seems like Roberts reached out to Jam in some form or another. Because that term is really not all that common and to have Jam use it 6 months ago in that 'outsiders' opinion that basically broke down everything that was wrong and right with what was going on at CiG and to have Roberts use it himself is pretty coincidental, and I dont believe in coincidences. Or maybe Roberts just read it and decided to use the term. Who knows but I suspect its deeper than that. Ascent has really progressed the past few months thats why I said quid pro quo. Maybe some CiG guys helped out here or there (we can discuss ethics of that at a later time) but the concessions and admissions are pretty timely as to this blog and when they started coming from Roberts own mouth.

Maybe someone actually made him see the light of day.

I said it was a semi positive thing that the guy is maybe coming back to reality, but is it too late by now?

CrazKanuk · April 2016

MikePt said:

psiic said:

I look at it this way I am no fan of CIG, but all of the people in this thread knew there was a risk involved in backing this game development. Most of us are not children, we are consenting adults who knowingly made this purchase well aware of the risks. Was this a bad decision to back this game? Probably so. Will the original backers ever receive the open world, massive multiplayer persistent space exploration game we were promised? Probably not. Will I try and get my money back because I made a bad decision? No

And your let them go away with it ? If I where you I at least would like to see how those money burn in their pockets. [mod edit]

[mod edit]

It isn't like the terms and conditions were not spelled out. It's all over the place!! God damnit! I'm telling you, my mind will probably explode if the day ever comes when people are accountable for their own actions. Shit! CIG was giving refunds for 3 years which is absolutely unprecedented in crowdfunding. If you didn't see the writing on the wall by then, I'm truly sorry.

Erillion · April 2016

rodarin said:

Because that term is really not all that common

In my experience that is a VERY common term in project management ... in ANY field, not just video games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product

Have fun

CrazKanuk · April 2016

Erillion said:

rodarin said:

Because that term is really not all that common

In my experience that is a VERY common term in project management ... in ANY field, not just video games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product

Have fun

Just as a side note, it would be the defining premise behind Agile development.

EDIT: That is, that you're continually shipping the product each iteration until it fulfills your desired feature set.

TalulaRose · April 2016

"we should make a smaller, less impressive game for the sake of having it out more quickly or in order to meet artificial deadlines. Now I’ll answer those claims in one word: Bullshit!"

The only bullshit I see are the posts trying to spin this as nothing........

rodarin · April 2016

Erillion said:

rodarin said:

Because that term is really not all that common

In my experience that is a VERY common term in project management ... in ANY field, not just video games.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimum_viable_product

Have fun

Cite any time prior to Oct 2015 anyone working for CiG ever used that term let alone Chris Roberts himself.

But all that aside I DO NOT think people who have pledged tens of thousands personally and 112 million+ collectively based on a list of stretch goals had this in mind...(from your link because I know you didnt read it)

A minimum viable product has just those core features that allow the product to be deployed, and no more. The product is typically deployed to a subset of possible customers, such as early adopters that are thought to be more forgiving, more likely to give feedback, and able to grasp a product vision from an early prototype or marketing information. It is a strategy targeted at avoiding building products that customers do not want, that seeks to maximize the information learned about the customer per dollar spent. "The minimum viable product is that version of a new product which allows a team to collect the maximum amount of validated learning about customers with the least effort."[1] The definition's use of the words maximum and minimum means it is decidedly not formulaic. It requires judgement to figure out, for any given context, what MVP makes sense.

Erillion · April 2016

rodarin said: because I know you didnt read it)

Pray tell: how exactly do you "know" that? ;-)

And w.r.t. to the part you quoted: it describes well the SC Alpha tester community.

Have fun

Nanfoodle · April 2016

Myself, if I had invested in this game. I would be calling my credit card company to charge back. To much funny business with this one. I just dont think the guy running this has the ability to pull this off on any level. Creative guy but he should be working for someone who knows how to run a business.

rodarin · April 2016

Erillion said:

rodarin said: because I know you didnt read it)

Pray tell: how exactly do you "know" that? ;-)

And w.r.t. to the part you quoted: it describes well the SC Alpha tester community.

Have fun

Read what you wrote there, seriously you have to be trolling right now right?

There arent 200 people playing that alpha at any given time, and you keep quoting 1.3 million 'citizens'/backers. Now we know there arent that many but there are way more than what you just said and its HIGHLY unlikely any of them would that forgiving. Wait 5 years for something they could have and should have released a year after the kickstarter opened, with a lot less features. They arent even going to have the stretch goal features for the original 3 million stretch goal, you remember the amount they claimed they could make the game for in the first place.

But I am still waiting on the most important question I asked... a SINGLE example prior to Oct 2015 where ANYONE at CiG used that term.

Erillion · April 2016

rodarin said:

There arent 200 people playing that alpha at any given time,

Please explain how you come up with that number.

In Arena Commander one could - with a huge margin of error - estimate activity from the leaderboards.

But i am curious from which metrics you deduce number of people in the "Crusader" testing environment. Which - at the moment - is the most active testing area.

Have fun

kemplartoast · April 2016

Hey John,

Just a reminder - tomorrow is 4 weeks. http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/448002/remind-me-4-weeks-insider-info-how-deep-does-the-rabbit-hole-go

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Charge Back and Refunds

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Bensday with Batgirl & Ben episode 45

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Charge Back and Refunds

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Bensday with Batgirl & Ben episode 45

Star Citizen – The Extinction Level Event