Charge Back and Refunds

Kefo

sacase said:

There are some real pathetic people in this thread. They knew dang good and well what they were getting into before they pledged their money. Personally, I pledged my money enough to get the free game back in 2014. It will be done when its done, until them, I have a lot of other gaming and studying to do. I check in once a month to see how things are going and they are looking good. 

Why am I not surprised to see Erillion marking this comment as awesome? I guess if it makes fun of people for not having the ability to peer into the future then its ok with him, anything to push the SC agenda and hype train and keep the money rolling in right?

Arillix

All of you so called detractors, sure like promoting the hell out of this "dead on arrival," "doomed to fail," game from the rooftops and soapboxes that has been setup.

Just remember the old adage: Even bad publicity is still publicity, and drama can spread faster than fire.
So great job making this catch on such fing fire.

tawess

JohnP0100 said:

I mean, if these people just can read the future this wouldn't have happened! /sarcasm

I think most people are not saying that people should be able to see the future. But they should have been aware of what they where buying in too. They where funding a dream and a hope. Not an actual product. Now i know that i have an insight in to how creative production happens thanks to my education that outstrips not only your average citizen but those on the layer above. But anyone who made it through the obligatory part of school should know that when you donate money to a dream, not only are your money per se gone but you really have no influence over how said dream take shape.

Anything presented in a KS campaign is a declaration of intent and nothing more. 

Because for most of the time the people running the campaign don´t have much more (with exceptions ofc.) and there is no way to foresee the future, and that goes both way. But way to many people treated the SC crowdfunding as a pre-order with a unusually long delivery date rather than a donation to project in development. 

And that is a pretty damm big difference. 

Turrican187

tawess said:

JohnP0100 said:

I mean, if these people just can read the future this wouldn't have happened! /sarcasm

I think most people are not saying that people should be able to see the future. But they should have been aware of what they where buying in too. They where funding a dream and a hope. Not an actual product. [...]

Anything presented in a KS campaign is a declaration of intent and nothing more. 

[...]

I'm sorry but this is not the case, else they are misleading their customers which would lead to a refund by law.
This is NOT a KS campaign anymore, the KS was just to fire up their sales page.

And that is a pretty damm big difference. 

BeansnBread

tawess said:

JohnP0100 said:

I mean, if these people just can read the future this wouldn't have happened! /sarcasm

But anyone who made it through the obligatory part of school should know that when you donate money to a dream, not only are your money per se gone but you really have no influence over how said dream take shape. 

Not only are you wrong about almost everything in your post, what you wrote here blows the rest out of the water. What part of school teaches you that once you donate to a dream that your money is gone? I mean, what you wrote is just embarrassing.

tawess

BeansnBread said:

Not only are you wrong about almost everything in your post, what you wrote here blows the rest out of the water. What part of school teaches you that once you donate to a dream that your money is gone? I mean, what you wrote is just embarrassing.

Basic home ed... Civics... And if you attended a good one.. History. 

At least that was knowledge i came out of the system with. If you did not i feel sorry for you and the years you lost. 

Not to mention if you then attended anything above your basic obligatory education. But i know that far form everyone have that luxury so i am not taking that in to account. 

But this have ofc proven me wrong and i now fear for the future of our world. 

BeansnBread

tawess said:

BeansnBread said:

Not only are you wrong about almost everything in your post, what you wrote here blows the rest out of the water. What part of school teaches you that once you donate to a dream that your money is gone? I mean, what you wrote is just embarrassing.

Basic home ed... Civics... And if you attended a good one.. History. 

At least that was knowledge i came out of the system with. If you did not i feel sorry for you and the years you lost. 

Not to mention if you then attended anything above your basic obligatory education. But i know that far form everyone have that luxury so i am not taking that in to account. 

But this have ofc proven me wrong and i now fear for the future of our world. 

I'm just going to tell you now... your grammar is awful (I assume it's because English is not your first language) and your opinions are based on nothing that you were taught. You can hold those opinions, but please stop pretending that they are based on your "higher" education.

Your degree in... Civics taught you that when you put money in a dream that your money is gone? You don't have any idea what you're talking about. Please stop pretending like you do.

tawess

So you tell me to stop presenting "opinions" as fact and then go on and do the exact same thing your self... That is... Cute... 

But yes... I have a BA and a MA in media production(not civics.. that was in reference to what they teach said understanding) ... So not only do i feel confident in saying that i have above average understanding of working with creative projects and the sort of problems that you face doing so. But i also feel fairly secure in saying that you should come out of elementary school or at least upper secondary with a understanding that if you put money in to something that does not exist... Your money may as well be spent and gone. They usually teach this in order to make people aware of the need to manage ones financials (as limited as they are in the pre-teen to teen years) 

But i might be wrong... I will make the following amend... When i was in school we got taught this at least. 

Does that sooth your bruised ego? 

As for my grammar you are correct, i am not a native english speaker and to be honest i am not very fuzzed over the grammar of my native language either. I am sort of lazy in that regard. 

BeansnBread

tawess said:

So you tell me to stop presenting "opinions" as fact and then go on and do the exact same thing your self... That is... Cute... 

But yes... I have a BA and a MA in media production(not civics.. that was in reference to what they teach said understanding) ... So not only do i feel confident in saying that i have above average understanding of working with creative projects and the sort of problems that you face doing so. But i also feel fairly secure in saying that you should come out of elementary school or at least upper secondary with a understanding that if you put money in to something that does not exist... Your money may as well be spent and gone. They usually teach this in order to make people aware of the need to manage ones financials (as limited as they are in the pre-teen to teen years) 

But i might be wrong... I will make the following amend... When i was in school we got taught this at least. 

Does that sooth your bruised ego? 

As for my grammar you are correct, i am not a native english speaker and to be honest i am not very fuzzed over the grammar of my native language either. I am sort of lazy in that regard. 

Sorry to burst your bubble, but media production doesn't actually teach you that, "when people put money into a dream that their money is gone." If anything, they should have taught you that there are ways to get your money back if a product is not delivered in a timely manner. Whoever taught you this ridiculous thought should be barred from teaching anybody. 

You not only don't have an "above average" understanding, you literally have a backwards understanding of the way things work. From your first response, you tried to pretend that it was your education that made your opinion powerful. I'm here to tell you, wherever you got your education, it was not worth it. You learned the wrong things. Incorrect things. So please stop trying to pretend that your education makes you an expert.

Brenics

ROFL guys guys you do not need a BA, MA, or a BS from Bullshit U. this is clearly a scam from the first change CR made after KS ended. CR has brought this all on him self and unlike others I believe he knows exactly what he is doing. Personally I hope the people at KS use him as an example to change how KS works. I also pray someone stands up and takes CR to the woodshed for what he has done to KS/Crowdfunding. 

Only worry I have is he may get away with all he has done wrong, just like Hillary Clinton is when Secretary of State. ROFL, yes I went there as a joke! 

tawess

I did not say that my degree taught me that... i said i learned that in upper secondary... during civics and home ed....  

I said my degree taught me how insanely complex it is to put a creative project live and exactly how many things outside of your control can screw you over completely. 

These two in combination made it easy for me to see why being an early adopter in the SC project was a thing i was not going to do. Something that someone who only had the home ed and civics might not understand. 

My statement was that way to many people bought in to the SC project thinking they where doing a pre-order when in fact all they did was donate money. 

I am surprised that not more people know the difference between buying a product and donating to a project (aka dream) 

But i do really enjoy your intimate knowledge of me and my life, it is a bit creepy as i would think that someone who has studied me that close would have made them self known but i will regard you as my personal anthropologist. Could you check your notes and see if you have any leads on where i misplaced my Optimus Prime figure... It was around middle-school i think.. It was junky but i really liked it. =P


=D

Rictis

My brother in law is a hardcore follower of this and has contributed. He has a group of friends that have thrown between 100 - 25,000+ towards their kick-starter. I personally would never invest money in a program without a guarantee that goals would be met and I would see my money used wisely. 

Having said that, I think its up to you as an investor whether you feel this is a good idea or not. What they are proposing is great, however if you have any experience with how game development works you would have known that there is no way this was going to release at the dates they were suggesting. Anyway, to each their own. Good luck to those that are holding on to that hope. 

BeansnBread

tawess said:

I did not say that my degree taught me that... i said i learned that in upper secondary... during civics and home ed....  

I said my degree taught me how insanely complex it is to put a creative project live and exactly how many things outside of your control can screw you over completely. 

These two in combination made it easy for me to see why being an early adopter in the SC project was a thing i was not going to do. Something that someone who only had the home ed and civics might not understand. 

My statement was that way to many people bought in to the SC project thinking they where doing a pre-order when in fact all they did was donate money. 

I am surprised that not more people know the difference between buying a product and donating to a project (aka dream) 

But i do really enjoy your intimate knowledge of me and my life, it is a bit creepy as i would think that someone who has studied me that close would have made them self known but i will regard you as my personal anthropologist. Could you check your notes and see if you have any leads on where i misplaced my Optimus Prime figure... It was around middle-school i think.. It was junky but i really liked it. =P


=D

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. Just please stop talking nonsense. I have no idea why you keep talking about "home ed and civics." Please stop claiming that it was a donation that no one expected to get anything from. And please stop talking about your toy from middle school. It's just weird at this point.

tawess

BeansnBread said:

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. Just please stop talking nonsense. I have no idea why you keep talking about "home ed and civics." Please stop claiming that it was a donation that no one expected to get anything from. And please stop talking about your toy from middle school. It's just weird at this point.

That you have no idea what i am talking about have been obvious for a fair amount of posts.

Fortunately it does not matter either way to me.  

But it have been a.. well.. to call it fun would be to lie but it it has been a distraction on a boring evening. 

BeansnBread

tawess said:

BeansnBread said:

I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. Just please stop talking nonsense. I have no idea why you keep talking about "home ed and civics." Please stop claiming that it was a donation that no one expected to get anything from. And please stop talking about your toy from middle school. It's just weird at this point.

That you have no idea what i am talking about have been obvious for a fair amount of posts.

Fortunately it does not matter either way to me.  

But it have been a.. well.. to call it fun would be to lie but it it has been a distraction on a boring evening. 

You got me.

Distopia

BeansnBread said:

Not only are you wrong about almost everything in your post, what you wrote here blows the rest out of the water. What part of school teaches you that once you donate to a dream that your money is gone? I mean, what you wrote is just embarrassing.

So wait you don't believe people should have some level of understanding that when they buy into a kickstarter or other avenue of crowdfunding they may lose?

Talonsin

tawess said:

I said my degree taught me how insanely complex it is to put a creative project live and exactly how many things outside of your control can screw you over completely. 

Did your degree also teach you not to put out dates you could not deliver on?  (The original kickstarter and up until the end of 2014, the release date was scheduled for 2014)

Did your degree also teach you to change the terms of service when it suits you?  (The original terms of service stated if the game was not finished/released by 2015 the money would be given back to the backers)

Did your degree also teach you to lie about things like saying the stretch goals would not delay the 2014 release of the game?  (Which Chris said during several interviews in 2013 when he was not even close to being on target for that release "year")

Did your degree also teach you to promise and promote a major feature (Star Marine) and then suddenly change your stance and say it is already in the game and was never a separate feature when every other gaming magazine and blog begs to differ with you?

I hope it did and I wish Chris Roberts had went to your school and earned these lessons as well.

Distopia

Talonsin said:

tawess said:

I said my degree taught me how insanely complex it is to put a creative project live and exactly how many things outside of your control can screw you over completely. 

Did your degree also teach you not to put out dates you could not deliver on?  (The original kickstarter and up until the end of 2014, the release date was scheduled for 2014)

Did your degree also teach you to change the terms of service when it suits you?  (The original terms of service stated if the game was not finished/released by 2015 the money would be given back to the backers)

Did your degree also teach you to lie about things like saying the stretch goals would not delay the 2014 release of the game?  (Which Chris said during several interviews in 2013 when he was not even close to being on target for that release "year")

Did your degree also teach you to promise and promote a major feature (Star Marine) and then suddenly change your stance and say it is already in the game and was never a separate feature when every other gaming magazine and blog begs to differ with you?

I hope it did and I wish Chris Roberts had went to your school and earned these lessons as well.

Did he say CR is in the right for doing any of that? IF he did I certainly didn't see it. Do you folks really feel there is no responsibility on the backer what so ever? It surely doesn't seem so... WHich means few will learn from things like this, you can't learn if you take no or are given no responsibility for your own mistakes. We all know CR's mistakes here, they are laid out everyday on these and other boards. Yet some act as though those are the only mistakes made here, which is laughable.

SEANMCAD

Talonsin said:

tawess said:

I said my degree taught me how insanely complex it is to put a creative project live and exactly how many things outside of your control can screw you over completely. 

Did your degree also teach you not to put out dates you could not deliver on?  (The original kickstarter and up until the end of 2014, the release date was scheduled for 2014)

Did your degree also teach you to change the terms of service when it suits you?  (The original terms of service stated if the game was not finished/released by 2015 the money would be given back to the backers)

Did your degree also teach you to lie about things like saying the stretch goals would not delay the 2014 release of the game?  (Which Chris said during several interviews in 2013 when he was not even close to being on target for that release "year")

Did your degree also teach you to promise and promote a major feature (Star Marine) and then suddenly change your stance and say it is already in the game and was never a separate feature when every other gaming magazine and blog begs to differ with you?

I hope it did and I wish Chris Roberts had went to your school and earned these lessons as well.

too funny.

1. what real life project management teaches pretty much the first year in is that project dates are almost ALWAYS missed. So why do they give them? that is a question people in projects and lead projects have been asking for decades. Nothing new here.

2. degree can also help one determine the difference between a lie and a statement that is based off of bad planning.

There are soooooo many things wrong with SC project that there is really no need to dig in the mud and become basically creepy in order to be a critic. 

Everything you need to comfortably critize this project is sitting at the very top of the heap and really doesnt require bizzare and challengeing logic to pull out.

Example: CR is just terrible at project management..pure full stop. He doesnt have to be a liar or a baby killer for the former to be true and for it to be a concern.

stop

JohnP0100

And the  'blame the victim'  narrative continues. Like i said in my OP,  'mental gymnastic' to divert attention away from the fact people have protection process in place to get your money back. 

The donation angle is hilarious as even CIG doesn't consider it a donation. They charge VAT which would be illegal if it was.


Apparently now the narrative is that creative process means you don't have to deliver on time or what was promised. And this is because someone's media degree is considered 'higher education'. Hang on min....lolwut!

SEANMCAD

JohnP0100 said:

And the  'blame the victim'  narrative continues. Like i said in my OP,  'mental gymnastic' to divert attention away from the fact people have protection process in place to get your money back. 

The donation angle is hilarious as even CIG doesn't consider it a donation. They charge VAT which would be illegal if it was.


Apparently now the narrative is that creative process means you don't have to deliver on time or what was promised. And this is because someone's media degree is considered 'higher education'. Hang on min....lolwut!

no that is not it at all

I dont understand why everyone has to take this to such extreemes

is CR horrible at project management?
YES
are most projects horrible at project management?
yes
Is CR mnore horrible than most at porject management?
yes
Is Frontier better at project management?
yes

that is it ..that is the full story

Distopia

JohnP0100 said:

And the  'blame the victim'  narrative continues. Like i said in my OP,  'mental gymnastic' to divert attention away from the fact people have protection process in place to get your money back. 

The donation angle is hilarious as even CIG doesn't consider it a donation. They charge VAT which would be illegal if it was.


Apparently now the narrative is that creative process means you don't have to deliver on time or what was promised. And this is because someone's media degree is considered 'higher education'. Hang on min....lolwut!

No one is saying that, at this point you're just using that as a deflection. You're attempting to shame others into your frame of thought, which is petty.

MrSnuffles

SEANMCAD said:

Talonsin said:

tawess said:

I said my degree taught me how insanely complex it is to put a creative project live and exactly how many things outside of your control can screw you over completely. 

Did your degree also teach you not to put out dates you could not deliver on?  (The original kickstarter and up until the end of 2014, the release date was scheduled for 2014)

Did your degree also teach you to change the terms of service when it suits you?  (The original terms of service stated if the game was not finished/released by 2015 the money would be given back to the backers)

Did your degree also teach you to lie about things like saying the stretch goals would not delay the 2014 release of the game?  (Which Chris said during several interviews in 2013 when he was not even close to being on target for that release "year")

Did your degree also teach you to promise and promote a major feature (Star Marine) and then suddenly change your stance and say it is already in the game and was never a separate feature when every other gaming magazine and blog begs to differ with you?

I hope it did and I wish Chris Roberts had went to your school and earned these lessons as well.

1. what real life project management teaches pretty much the first year in is that project dates are almost ALWAYS missed. So why do they give them? that is a question people in projects and lead projects have been asking for decades. Nothing new here.

This is a perfect example of what is called in professional circles sciolism or superficial knowledge.

1. The "Software Development is always late" Myth.
Project Management teaches you from the first year how to make very accurate estimates and use Agile development methods. Most commonly used is a so called "Burn Down Chart" which will give you very precise estimates.

I am pretty sure CR has not the slightest clue how to run an effective Agile development cycle.

rodarin

Brenics said:

ROFL guys guys you do not need a BA, MA, or a BS from Bullshit U. this is clearly a scam from the first change CR made after KS ended. CR has brought this all on him self and unlike others I believe he knows exactly what he is doing. Personally I hope the people at KS use him as an example to change how KS works. I also pray someone stands up and takes CR to the woodshed for what he has done to KS/Crowdfunding. 

Only worry I have is he may get away with all he has done wrong, just like Hillary Clinton is when Secretary of State. ROFL, yes I went there as a joke! 

People say he is a horrible/failed actor but he is acting like an idiot so peopel dont realize its part of his master plan. Watching his videos and him fumblefuck around with the game no one can be that dumb.

Distopia

rodarin said:

Brenics said:

ROFL guys guys you do not need a BA, MA, or a BS from Bullshit U. this is clearly a scam from the first change CR made after KS ended. CR has brought this all on him self and unlike others I believe he knows exactly what he is doing. Personally I hope the people at KS use him as an example to change how KS works. I also pray someone stands up and takes CR to the woodshed for what he has done to KS/Crowdfunding. 

Only worry I have is he may get away with all he has done wrong, just like Hillary Clinton is when Secretary of State. ROFL, yes I went there as a joke! 

People say he is a horrible/failed actor but he is acting like an idiot so peopel dont realize its part of his master plan. Watching his videos and him fumblefuck around with the game no one can be that dumb.

I didn't realize he acted, did you mean director?